Gospel Culture and Social Media

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Sam Allberry
Welcome back to You’re Not Crazy. Podcast for young pastors from the Gospel coalition. I’m Sam Allberry, I’m joined as always by Ray Ortlund. Hi, Ray,

Ray Ortlund
great to see you, Sam.

Sam Allberry
Ray, what is your favorite animal? What? Well, I asked that question because our listeners, you’ve referred a couple of times your wife, Jenny, there is someone else who lives in your house.

Ray Ortlund
Yes, well, I have the most adorable and precious Labrador Retriever named nixie. And we’ve had her now for five years.

Sam Allberry
She is she’s had you for five years.

Ray Ortlund
Yes, that’s so true. As she is, she is coolly indifferent toward me. But I adore her. And that’s, that’s the deal. That’s the arrangement that she tolerates me. And I, you know, fawn over her and, and, and fuss over her and spoil her and, and that’s our relationship, and

Sam Allberry
it works. And so is that that links nicely into what we’re talking about? We’re gonna be talking about social media. And if people follow you on social media, nexi and social media, yes. Have you seen your Instagram account? If you follow Ray on social media, you might know that he’s married, you will know that he has

Ray Ortlund
a dog. That’s embarrassing, Sam, don’t tell the world.

Sam Allberry
We’ve been thinking about the importance of ministry being relational. a fair amount of our relational life these days happens virtually happens online, we have resources and tools now to do that in a way that we didn’t have even 10 years ago. Which what social media platforms do Twitter and Instagram on? And what is your what kind of controls how you use them? What do you do with them? Really,

Ray Ortlund
their ways of communicating gospel culture? That’s that’s my not hidden agenda. here’s here’s a thought I have about Twitter, which is such a toxic, poisonous, angry, tense, explosive environment. Somebody reading a tweet from me today might be considering suicide. That person might be really close to breaking. Who do I think I am to be reckless, unthinking, uncaring just pushing up my agenda, my anger, that might not help that person, they might need something quite different. So anyway, that’s that. That scares me, Sam. Does it’s powerful.

Sam Allberry
Yeah, I mean, but it’s a powerful that they’re designed to be powerful that the universe exists because God spoke words. And he’s made us as image bearers to have that capacity to use words in a way that can can build universes. Or we can just tear down things with our words. All of which means if if we’re not thinking about how we use social media, we’re probably misusing it. Because we do need to think through what we’re doing, how it works, what our words might be affecting the lives of others, and

Ray Ortlund
what platforms are you on?

Sam Allberry
I use Twitter and Instagram. Also, I have Facebook, but rarely do anything with it. And other than snoop around and see what old school friends are up to you.

Ray Ortlund
What do you wish to accomplish? When

Sam Allberry
you post it’s changed over the years? I was I was, you know, that thing where you you, you can see what you were posting five years ago or six years ago, I look back over some of those and wins a bit. Or a lot. It’s normally thinking if I’m reading the Bible, and the good thing about Twitter for me is that it helps me condense my thoughts. So if I’m think meditating on a scripture, and what I wrote, how do I boil this down into into one sentence, I’ll often use Twitter for that. So it might may just be there’s a thought buzzing around my head. And here’s a good place to put it. Something I found in the Bible. I love using it to commend others. If I see there’s, you know, a book coming out that someone I know is written that looks like it’s going to serve the church or just not as you’ll need my help for this, but I just noticed Jackie Hill Perry’s new book is available for pre order. So that’s a no brainer, that’s a good use of Twitter to there may be some people who follow me who’ve not come across Jackie Hill Perry, and I’ve loved them too. So if I can use it to do that kind of thing as well. I love teasing my friends on Twitter. So I do that a bit to those of you that

Ray Ortlund
your comment about Jackie spoken and posting something about that reminds me what Paul says in First Corinthians 14 let all things be done for edification, that is, everything we do and say should be constructive, not destructive, should build people up, lift people up, help people get to someplace, that would be Wonderful for them and honoring to Christ. And never, ever tear anybody down. So when you’re posting about Jackie or any some anybody else like that you are putting into practice the construct of edifying up. I have never thought of what you said earlier in the podcast that God used words to create the universe. God uses our words to create new universes. So you post about Jackie, right? somebody sees that, links to Amazon, whatever gets the book reads it. They go to a new place in their, in their walk with Christ in their walk with one another. You have been instrumental through Twitter, creating a new universe. That’s amazing. Why would we want to use it for any other purpose?

Sam Allberry
Hey, something else I just realized just now. I think one of the reasons you and I have become friends is because of Twitter. Before we actually met, I knew who you were because I’ve been following you on Twitter, we’ve had a couple of interactions on Twitter. So it can be good on ramp into real friendships is not a good substitute for them. But it can be good long. And

Ray Ortlund
what about Instagram? What do you what do you use it for? How is it? How is it Henri de Jesus satisfying to your own soul?

Sam Allberry
Um, Instagram, is it feels a little bit more personal to meet on Twitter just as a medium. So I might do more on Instagram about what I’m up to. If I’m on a ministry trip or just finished finishing a ministry project, I posted something when I was in the hospital for a week earlier in the year just to sort of get some, you know, let people know what was going on in that front. So because it’s a less confrontational, it seems it seems a slightly happier place instagram and twitter land. Yeah, I tend to use it more for personal and

Ray Ortlund
what do you think? What are some landmines we can step on? In on social media that we don’t intend to but it’s so easy to do. So it’s when I look at Twitter especially I do get riled up, I get angry. And my I don’t trust my moral fervor. Sam, I think my moral fervor is the most immoral thing about me, the most destructive thing about me, it scares me, that’s the part that’s really scary. So what what are some? What have you seen that that Christians using social media, that dis creates, destroys, it’s easy Ultron

Sam Allberry
I see this in myself, it’s easy to forget that the person you’re interacting with is flesh and blood, human being. And it’s so easy to do and say things on Twitter, you would never do if you were sitting physically in front of that person. So on Twitter, it’s easy for someone just to be reduced in our minds to an annoying opinion, or an avatar of someone that you know, someone who’s just an irritant, and to treat them accordingly. And not to treat them as someone made in the image of God, maybe a brother or sister in Christ, someone worthy of our our respect and of our dignity. And so we can sort of shoot from the hip. Be a bit swashbuckling and not realize, actually, I would never speak to someone like that if I was face to face, and there’s a very good reason I wouldn’t, and therefore, I shouldn’t

Ray Ortlund
just because they’re not physically, I think of that very thing, Sam as a way of, except seeing and accepting the limitations of something like Twitter, it cannot, by the very nature of it accomplish very much. It can accomplish good. It can’t accomplish. Great good. It can accomplish great harm. But what little good It can accomplish I want to exploit that and drive that. If I can run that play down the field. I want to run that play over and over again to score touchdown as often as I can. For example, I think of Here’s what I mean, Proverbs chapter 16, verse 21, sweetness of speech increases persuasiveness. Proverbs 1621 what a fascinating thing to say, sweetness of speech increases persuasiveness. Why does that work? Because sweetness of speech, I think combines two things. One, humility, about myself. Secondly, respect for other people, treating them as if they matter, respecting them as people who can think and lowering myself to serve them and try to win them, not just yell at them when we’ve feel respected by someone who’s humbling him or herself and is reaching out to me humbly, reasonably with fair mindedness. Even if we disagree, that when I see that it has a heart melting power over me, and I something inside me cracks open, and I begin to listen more attentively with greater openness. So sweetness of speech increases persuasiveness, which I suppose I’m thinking out loud here, Sam, another way of saying harshness of speech. increases resistance. Yeah. So we have Christians yelling back and forth at each other. In this is on the internet in front of the whole world. And once it’s on the internet, it lasts. It’s thoughts ever Lobel

Sam Allberry
and permezone,

Ray Ortlund
some of us need to delete some posts and go into repentance. I do I have deleted many things I’ve said and then afterwards, I realize oh, my goodness, what was I thinking? That is not edifying. That is not my mission in the world. The reason why I’m on the planet, Sam, the reason why I haven’t gotten died, killed over dead like a Brontosaurus. And gone to be with the Lord. The reason why I’m the heart is still beating is that he’s got work for me to do. It’s really worth doing. And I believe God wants me to preach gospel doctrine and nurture gospel culture. And social media actually is a killer platform for just getting out brief words that will bring hope to people. Yeah, that person thinking about suicide. If they come and look at my Twitter feed, I don’t want to let them down. Yeah. And so I want to talk about the issues of the day, in such a way with sweetnesses speech that such that increases persuasiveness, maybe indirectly, in a way that only the Holy Spirit can orchestrate that person will decide. Alright, I’m not going to take that fatal step. I’m gonna wait

Sam Allberry
and give. Michael once said that. books don’t change lives sentences do. And I can think of sentences john five is written in books that have changed my life. But I think again, that shows us the potential for the way we can use Twitter for the kingdom of passage that that has shaped me a lot is is Isaiah, Isaiah, Isaiah 14,

Ray Ortlund
Isaiah is much better. That’s impressive.

Sam Allberry
Isaiah 40 verse nine, go on up to a high mountain, oh Zion, herald of good news, lift up your voice with strength, oh, Jerusalem, herald of good news lifted up, fear not say to the cities of, of Judah, behold your God. So in other words, the herald of good news, the evangelist, which in one sense is all believers, we’re all heralds of good news. We are, we want that news to get as far and wide as possible. So it’s worth going up on a high mountain, it’s worth lifting up your voice with strength. If you have a message of good news, which in this case is behold your God. If, if we’re seeking to communicate who God is, then we want that message to go as far and wide as possible. If we’re only seeking to communicate, our opinions, our politics, our rightness, we don’t need to go up on a high mountain to do that. We can just stay right down on the valley. We don’t need you know, let’s just we don’t people don’t need to hear that. So it’s only worth having any kind of reach if the message we’re giving is a message of who God is. That’s the only message worth going up on a high mountain light on Twitter is I’m out in. That’s the only message worth going up there and lifting up your voice to Barlow is a message of this is who our God is this is this is the Lord Jesus. Look at his tender mercies. He is the good news that we Herald. So if my message isn’t about him, I don’t actually need to be broadcasting it far and wide. If my message is about him, I might as well try and get it out there as far as I can see me have thought about this carefully.

Ray Ortlund
What would you recommend to me and to every listener as to let’s call a moratorium on these practices, these forms of discourse on social media. Let’s promote and practice and push out there these over here, these different behaviors and themes and attitudes and so forth. What’s what what’s the the list of the never list and what’s the always list things we never want to do?

Sam Allberry
They never want to do. Looking over things I’ve I’ve done in the past would include venting my spleen. I’ve got to get this off my chest if you need to get off You just write on a piece of paper, you don’t have to put it on Twitter. And the times when I’ve tweeted in temperately are almost always the tweets I’ve most regretted. So just using it to vent is, is not going to be a constructive use of it. using it because everyone out there needs fixing. And I’m just going to sit here and correct everybody else in the world. There are things you can do well with Twitter, anything that that approaches trying to correct other people is not it’s just not the medium that’s designed for that, that that’s something that requires presence, relationship, nuance body language, facial expressions, the whole the whole deal, real time, give and take, yeah, it is almost impossible to swing someone around 180 degrees, from one opinion to another via Twitter. Now it can be as I said earlier, can be an on ramp to a relationship in which those things can then happen. And I’ve I’ve seen that I’ve had people who’ve had questions or objections to something I’ve done or said, and they’ve, they’ve mentioned that on Twitter, and in some cases that’s led to Hey, let’s have a Skype, let’s FaceTime about this. And this actually led to a relationship or a friendship. But it’s very hard to, to do the Ministry of correcting by Twitter. And I think certainly if we’re if we’re pastors, the the deeper ministry we’re doing is to our congregation, we’re not pastors of Twitter land, we’re pastors of Emanuel church, Nashville, or wherever it happens to be. And so there’s going to be people out there annoying me on Twitter. I don’t need to that’s that’s not the time I need to. That’s not where my emotional energy should be. Go. It’s

Ray Ortlund
on your always lists.

Sam Allberry
Certainly, anything that is scriptural, is always worth sharing. Something that shows someone you’re thinking of them that you want to encourage someone publicly honoring others on one another. Twitter actually can be a good place to do that. Yes, I love to hear on Twitter. So I think those those would be two categories, for me of always is sharing scripture on insights and kind of relational commendation. I think

Ray Ortlund
there’s something else going on on social media that’s really conducive to gospel culture. And that is not through one tweet or one post, but through a whole history of tweets and posts. Setting a tone Yes, because tone setting is so much a part of leadership, pastoral leadership and building gospel culture. It’s gospel culture is is it’s such a intangible and, and one moment doesn’t create gospel culture, or hold ministry creates gospel culture. If we receive Social Media, as a trust, a stewardship from the Lord, He created Twitter, he created Instagram, for the display of His glory, and the building up of his people in the spread of the gospel, if we receive it, as from him, and then we’re steadily ruggedly, without self indulgence. Push Jesus, and his good news out to people, suffering people, sending people like us, and communicate how much we’re in this together, and how we can share Christ together and so forth. That pattern over time sets a tone. And it really resonates with people, it rallies people around Christ Himself. That’s when I think social media are finding their real fulfillment, and why they even exist in God’s universe.

Sam Allberry
It can be because of the nature of these things, a way of reaching someone who who might not have much access to Biblical encouragement.

Ray Ortlund
I’ve never thought of that. So every pastor listening to this right now, maybe maybe every pastor, including me, including you, we can go post something on Twitter today that might actually help that person contemplating suicide. Yeah, to turn away and look to God and say, Would you help me? Yeah, wow.

Sam Allberry
A bruised reed, Jesus will not break. And there are so many bruised reeds out there who don’t know how safe Jesus is. What

Ray Ortlund
if someone looking at my Twitter feed today? Or yours or any pastors is actually giving life one more chance? Yeah, today, let’s be there for that person.

Sam Allberry
I think another another good purpose and a natural purpose for a pastor is if, if you’re looking someone’s looking to join a new church, they’ll look at the church website, they may watch this online service or listen to a sermon. If I’m wanting to check out a pastor or look at his social media, absolutely. So it’s another way potentially of being another source. The front window into your church life.

Ray Ortlund
Something else I try to do, both on Twitter and Instagram is for the display of God’s grace and goodness, his show, it’s not hard to show just the very sort of ordinary, common human flow of my daily life, as you mentioned, nixie at the front of this episode, and I love putting a photograph of nixie on social media, because she’s my dog. I said to her last night, it’s so cute Sam, I bring her in for the night. And she runs up to the first landing on the stairway to go upstairs, and she sits there until I come, I follow up a few minutes later. And we have our moment together at the end of the day, and I snuggle with her, and and she, she is, you know, sort of oblivious to me, but that’s okay. And I told her last night, I’m talking to my dog. And I told her, God made you and when God made you, and I thought of something you said, once I said to her, when God made you, he had a good day, and God has put something of His glory on you, you’re one of his creatures, he has entrusted you to my care. So I’m going to take good care of you for the glory of God, I want to treat you right, because God cares about you. So at this, I said that to nixie. Because I think that God’s glory is on all of our humaneness, including pets for crying out loud. And, and so with a due sense of nixies place in the grand scheme of things. And the modest location she occupies in the grand scheme of things, still, she is not nothing. And we pastors can just reassure people that we’re probably less religious than they think. And more human than they think it’s good. If they come to our church, maybe they don’t have to be religious at all. And maybe they can find ways to be even more delightful. I

Sam Allberry
think that’s good. It shows people that we do live in the same world that they do, that we we see and enjoy the same gift of creation. And yeah, we’re not just walking, you know, sermon dispenses, or that kind of thing. God is so good to us. Um, here’s another verse that I think can help us with these things. Romans 12, verse 18, Paul says, if possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all I love. I love both the aspiration of this verse and the realism of it, the aspiration is to live peaceably with all why wouldn’t we want to do that? The realism is, if possible, it’s not always so far as it depends on you. So if it’s not possible, make sure that’s not because of what’s going on at your end. You know, you shouldn’t be the barrier to someone living peaceably with you. So my question for you raise, you know, there are things that blow up and controversies that explode on Twitter. If someone is taking issue with something you’ve done, or said or written, and they’re kind of patting you on Twitter. How do you apply that verse to that situation? How do you tend to respond to you? How do you try to lower the temperature? And what do you

Ray Ortlund
do? Sam, I wish I had a good answer for you. It’s such an important question. Okay. The truth of it is, if I sense that someone is unsatisfied, because they’re probably unsatisfiable. And they come at me directly, and don’t even use their name, in their identification on Twitter, I blocked them. If they are critiquing me, and they’re identifying their name, so the possibility of a relationship is there, and they’re taking responsibility, personal responsibility for what they’re saying. And I can tell this is a thoughtful critique. They’re pointing out something I hadn’t seen before, then I have to swallow my pride. And give thanks for that person. And prop I will try to make myself grab myself by the scruff of the neck and I say Ray hurt and you will do the right thing. You will humble yourself. And you will treat this person with respect. So respond and thank them for what they’ve added, but blocking and muting. Commonly if they’re sort of Uber theological, unfair minded critiques, I blocked them. Because I want them to know I disapprove. For Jesus sake, I disapprove of what they’re doing. If it’s a pornographic solicitation, I just mute them. And I stop and pray. I don’t know if that’s an actual person in that little photograph there. But she’s out there somewhere. So I pray for that person. And I mute that because I don’t want to deal with it. But I hope that that person whoever did that post, and runs that account actually keeps looking at my feed, and maybe they’ll be converted

Sam Allberry
Remember, once someone had read your book on marriage, someone had taken issue with a piece of art and they got the wrong end of the stick of something you were saying? And was, there’s a big sort of thing going on about that. And remember you responding to this person by saying, it became apparent this person would occasionally be in Nashville, and you actually said to them, you’d be so welcome to come around and have a meal with with me and Johnny. And we can, we can talk you through what we mean. And you said, it’s a sincere invitation. And I always remember that as being such a peaceable way of responding to someone who was, who was upset, not upset, because they were necessarily, you know, I think probably upset because they got the wrong end of the stick rather than because of what you were actually saying. If we pastors respond to people,

Ray Ortlund
by returning their hostility and suspicions, and the sort of adversarial approach they bring, how on earth are we? Are we representing Jesus? Yeah, he didn’t do that to us. He loved genuine. He said, in his wonderful works. He loved us into covenant. He will love us into heaven, that our ministry right towards

Sam Allberry
kindness leads to repentance. So it’s unlikely that our hostility is going to

Ray Ortlund
prompt it. And we are not called to the ministry so that we can show people how wrong they are, and defeat them and humiliate them. We are called into ministry to represent Christ. And that means we’re going to be mistreated, spoken against and so forth. Two thoughts will enter our mind when that happens. One, I don’t deserve this. This ridiculousness coming at me, this is unfair, I don’t deserve this. And then eventually, we’ll circle around to a second thought, Well, if I’m representing Jesus who was mistreated, I really don’t deserve this. This is a privilege. suffering, reproach for his sake, is a sacred privilege and suffering reproach within our churches in the world. That is the leading edge of redemption moving out into this broken world more and more. I think

Sam Allberry
that’s a great note to end this episode on Ray. One of the things we’re doing with social media or should be doing is it’s a form of practicing hospitality. It’s a way of letting people into our reality with Jesus in a way that is Invitational and warm. And so as we thank crossway for for sponsoring this podcast. One particular resource that comes to mind on that note is the gospel comes with a house key, our dear friend rosaria Butterfield who this is a one, this is an amazing book, there’s nothing else like it that I know of is Yeah. And she, she came into the weekend for us at the manual a year or so ago. And I think we’re still I think we’re still recovering in all of India. It was it was wonderful. We needed it. But it’s an amazing vision for opening up our, our lives, our hearts, our homes to others for the sake of price glory. So we would love people to get a hold of that. But we gave everyone at a manual a copy of it when she came. So thanks to crossway thanks to everyone who’s listening. It’s always our privilege to have this time with you. We don’t take it for granted, and we wish you God’s blessing.

Ray Ortlund
We know you have a ton to do these days. And so it means a lot to us that you would listen to the podcast. Thank you for listening to this episode of you’re not crazy. gospel sanity for young pastors. Do visit tgc.org slash podcasts for more episodes, and it would be great if you’d subscribe to our show on Apple podcasts. Thank you for doing that Spotify wherever you listen wherever you hang out. Thanks.

Unknown Speaker
The you’re not crazy podcast was made possible by multiple team members at TGC. That team includes the hosts of the show, Ray ortlund and Sam Allberry, as well as Steven Morales and Andrew Laparra. as executive producer and producer, Heather Ferrell, our podcast lead, Gabriel Reyes, our graphic designer, and Josh Diaz, our audio engineer. You’re not crazy as a part of the gospel coalition Podcast Network. You can find more podcasts at tgc.org/podcasts.