Supporting Mental Health with Dignity and Grace

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Blair Linne
God’s strength is made perfect in our weakness. And I think often, you know, whether we’re struggling with mental health or struggling with our emotions, or just tempted towards depression, the reality is, I think it’s pointing us to the fact that we are weak, that we’re needy, and we have a God who’s here, ready to bear our burdens.

All right, ladies, we’re back at it again, being able to have a discussion for a podcast glow. And it’s a podcast from the gospel coalition podcast network, we are for women, for beautiful women might act from four different parts of the world. And we’re here coming together to talk about God and His work in our lives and ministries and around the world. And today, we’ll be talking about mental and emotional health. And just a note, we’re going to be talking about some sensitive related subjects. And so we want to make sure if it’s might be triggering for you, that you would just be mindful, just take note of that, and maybe go back and listen to another one of our episodes, until you’re ready to come back to this one. My name is Blair Lin. I’m joined by Aisha de Lopez, Sharon Dickens and Sujin Park. And, as I mentioned, we’re talking about mental and emotional health. And, you know, these are huge topics, they carry a range of definitions. So when we talk about mental and emotional health, sometimes the assumption is that if it isn’t a quote, unquote, major issue for you that you can kind of check out of this conversation. But this is a conversation I think we all need to have, especially in light, just think of the pandemic and how much anxiety is on the rise. Depression has been on the rise, I think we really need to think through this. Well, I personally, I have struggled in my life with anxiety and panic attacks, I went through a really difficult season with it from 2015, to about 2019. And it just taught me so much. And I know for others, you know, because of the pandemic, this has been brought up for the very first time, you may not even know like how to process through these things. And so Lord willing, we’re going to talk about it and, and we pray that it would just be helpful. I think sometimes as Christians, we struggle with this idea that we have a body, you know, we are body and soul, I think we so often neglect the fact that we have a body we focus in on the spiritual solely, but the body is not ethically inferior to the soul at all. And I love how we were talking earlier and Sujin mentioned that we even struggle with this idea that not seeing the mind is a part of the body. And so we feed our spirit, but we often neglect other parts of who we are and how we were created in God’s image as well. So we’re image bearers, we live in a body, we possess a soul, which includes the mind the heart. And And just to note, also, as we have this conversation, we’re not mental health professionals. We’re sisters in Christ, you know, wanting to come alongside and just share some helpful things. But we think this conversation is important to have, I want to kind of get us started by asking our people in your local church, having conversations, first of all, about mental and emotional health, and if they are, is there a stigma attached to it?

Soojin Park
I can start I think for us, it’s a yes and no answer. Because what I’ve noticed is for younger generation, so anyone that are teens or 20s, I almost feel like everything is a mental health issue. And it almost becomes over labeled as everything is anxiety. Everything is diagnoseable. But then I think for older generations, it’s the opposite. They don’t talk about mental health. It’s, you know, you just got to pull up your bootstraps and get through it. There’s no such thing as something you can’t overcome. And so I see a lot of disparity between the generations. I don’t know about you guys. But there is definitely a stigma. I think, whether it is especially I think culturally for us as a Korean Americans, mental health is doesn’t exist. There’s no such thing as something you can’t mentally overcome. And so there’s definitely that cultural stigma, I think, as Christians to be, like you said, everything becomes over spiritualized. It’s a it’s an issue that you can overcome with faith. And so there’s just a lot of confusion around mental health. And I think certain pockets are having conversations and certain pockets are not.

Sharon Dickens
I would definitely agree. I think that so in our context, particularly from some of the people that are more from the scheme, they’re more likely to have those conversations about their mental health. And so good I mean, some of the Christians but that are many Christians who feel talking about this is like basically seeing my face There’s Lakin. And the people with the stigmas the right words, see them as laser Christians because they’re struggling emotionally. And so yeah, we’d say the same is huge. Sujan yes and no.

Aixa De Lopez
Yeah, I think we are beginning to see more talk about this and more resources and more young people going into the field of professional mental health help. So that’s encouraging. But with the, you know, the trend has been that we don’t understand mental health, we don’t have the language to explain what’s happening inside of us. And we don’t have the empathy to come alongside and even learn about it. We say, you know, if you’re, if your tooth is hurting you say we go to the dentist, right? If if you’ve been diagnosed with cancer, nobody questions you to going into chemotherapy. But if somebody gets diagnosed with depression, you’ll often hear things inside the church like, oh, you know, but just feel better, you know, but just, you know, look up,

Soojin Park
you still read some more Bible verses? Yeah. Right.

Aixa De Lopez
And so it goes back to what you were saying. It’s not only painful in itself, but it is isolating, because then there’s shame. So you, you don’t talk about it. And so I’m glad we’re having this conversation, because I think it affects all of us. And like we said, in another episode, we are not even beginning to understand the aftermath of what, you know, the pandemic has done to us as a generation, globally. So we need to be humble enough to say, we need to learn about everything that is so mysterious about our, our minds and our bodies.

Blair Linne
Yeah, it’s interesting, because even I think about like African American culture in particular, and how, you know, coming up, it was like, you know, mental health issue was not a conversation that we would have at all. And if anything was going on, it’s like, no, you’re not going to sit and talk to someone, you, you know, you don’t share your business with anyone. It’s just something that you kind of keep in your house or privately. But I wonder, like, I think there’s the cultural stigma that can be there. But why do you think that this is happening in the Christian community? Do you guys have any ideas of why? Why there’s a stigma attached to us?

Sharon Dickens
I think we have this image of so we have a vein, I don’t know what it’s like over here. I think in the West, it’s maybe those we have those vague, twisted idea of what we think godliness says. And we have and it’s, it’s usually tied around the things that you can see. And so actually, I feel that the the stigma around this is it’s late people say it themselves. I’m not this godly image, I think I should be, actually I’m a laser bn. I’m a laser Christian, I’ve not got this, this makes me in some way shape or form a failure, because I’m not able to do the things that other women can do in the church. And actually the other women in the church are a lot of them are, as depicted on their Sunday faces. It’s not really who they are. And actually, if we look to the reality is there’s lots of godly women, and our congregation struggling with many things, and nobody’s talking to each other. Because we were worried about how we be perceived, seen as as Christian. So I do think that there’s, there’s something to be said for that.

Aixa De Lopez
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I have to go into this and say, How I struggled with I think, I mean, I was never in depth diagnosed, but now I get it. And I think it was postpartum depression with my second baby. And I was very, you know, one of the surprising feelings and thoughts that I had during that time as I was kind of angry with the older women. Why didn’t nobody tell me? Yeah, no one talks about this in a baby shower. We’re big. You know what the melons are very big on party. So birthdays are month long and baby showers. You get like 10 baby showers. In Guatemala, yes. 10. Yeah, and nobody ever talks about this side of what could happen in the feelings and the, you know, restlessness in the end, a feeling of not being enough. And I felt kind of let down by my older sisters. Like, is everybody just perfect and it’s me. Maybe I’m the problem.

Sharon Dickens
i You should be cute. Does that make you want to then have that conversation with a younger woman with

Aixa De Lopez
a cotton shirt? Yeah, that baby is now almost 18 years old, and I’ve been invited to so many baby showers and I’ve shocked a few older saints. Because I’m I stand up there and I say, I have to be real with you. It may not be love at first sight, you may have, you know, struggles with, you know, you’re going to be exhausted. And, you know, I take a step to be the older sister that I didn’t have. And I feel it’s a responsibility to not keep on producing this facade, that you’re supposed to be in a godly woman would never struggle to care for the baby or to feel capable. And that’s a lie. And, and we do a disservice. And we’re cruel to each other when we keep up appearances. But we it’s like a vicious cycle. And I have to go back to, you know, all the prosperity teachings feed, and if there’s an underlying belief system, that doesn’t allow you to be weak.

Blair Linne
Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. And it’s interesting. I mean, I relate so much, even to the postpartum, you know, after having my first child. And, you know, I think I was telling someone yesterday, you know, when it came to marriage, everyone was like, it’s going to be hard, and it’s gonna be sanctifying, you know. And so, you know, my husband and I walked into marriage kind of tiptoeing, waiting for the bomb to drop, you know, and we actually had a great time, it was like, Wait, are we doing something wrong? But then when it came to having a child, because I nannied, the assumption was like, oh, it’s gonna be easy, you’re gonna be fine. And when it was really hard for me, I remember sitting in my room, the lights off, I’ve been nursing all day, covered in spit up, you know, hadn’t showered, you know what I mean? And even just watch watching my husband, pull out of the driveway, you know, and just sad, you know, and wrestling through that. And, and, and I remember telling my husband, what’s wrong with me, I must be so sinful, that here is this blessing that I’ve received. And I’m just sad, you know? And I remember him telling me, This isn’t because you’re sinful. He says, hormones. And I was like, hormones? Oh, I didn’t even think about that. You know. And I think I think that’s a part of this conversation in that even when it comes to mental mental health, we often can associate it with demon possession, you know, so it’s just like, okay, repent, you know, have more faith and get it together. You know, there must be some sin inside of you. That’s the reason that you’re struggling, not the reality that, well, wait, we’re in a fallen world. Now there could be sin, right? You know, you could be struggling with depression or anxiety because of sin. But we’re also in a fallen world, and we have a fallen body. So what does it look like to be fallen? To be weak? You know, that everything hasn’t been restored yet, you know? And so how do we wrestle when, you know, physiological things are happening. And it’s not that I don’t want to trust the Lord in the moment, but my body is doing things. And now I have to fight against my mind and my body. And it’s like, they’re fighting. They’re working against me, you know? So I don’t know if you guys have any thoughts on that. But, you know, that was just so eye opening for me in that moment. And I remember also reaching out to women, like, Why didn’t you say anything? Why did you say this was going to be easy? And for some women, it is easy. But for some, it’s not. Because it really does depend on who you are, as a mother, what’s going on with your child, like the circumstances is really what matters. And so, yeah, it’s like, yeah, and it’s

Aixa De Lopez
just an example of mental mental health issues. It’s just like, one little bit, but it’s just so complex, and so varied, depending on your history, depending on your upbringing, and on your physiologic biological makeup. Because it’s real, it’s absolutely real, I will recommend some resources at the end, but I have to mention it already. The Body Keeps the Score is an excellent book that you should grapple with. Because, you know, science backs up the fact that our bodies, tell the story and keep the story of everything that’s happened and not only in our generation, but past generations. And it’s it’s a fact. So it’s something that as Christians, we need to consider and be kind to one another and humbled to one another.

Soojin Park
And I think part of the issue of why it’s so stigmatized and churches that I think we have this over simplified, understood understanding of what biblical joy is. And so I think there’s a lot of pressure for people to be joyful, but they equate that with just feeling happy, or being happy. Beyond the outside, right. And I think there’s no nuance to being joyful as a Christian, even in the midst of your sadness and your suffering. So I think that’s one reason. And I also think, especially in the West, there’s such a high view of intellect that we, I think, look down on emotions. I think there’s a lot of different reasons for that. But I so I think anytime, like emotions are seriously involved, we almost like brushed it aside as like, That’s not biblical, or that’s not right, or, and so, I think there’s so many reasons as to why we, as a church, were not good about dealing with mental health.

Blair Linne
That’s good. I remember even going to a church where anything that was emotional, was looked at in a negative way, you know, having emotions, everything was bad. And it’s like, Well, wait, the Lord has created us as emotional beings. That’s a part of who we are. Now, certainly, we can engage our emotions in an unhelpful way. But how can we engage our emotions and our anxieties in a healthy way? And in the scriptures that come to mind to,

Soojin Park
I think, balance with anything, I think we need to acknowledge that we are emotional beings. And not only are we emotional beings, but I think God uses our emotions to tell us something about what’s going on, what are the things that are deep in our hearts, and yet, at the same time, not to be controlled by those emotions, because we shouldn’t let anything. Have a hold over us. And, you know, we talked a lot about the Psalms, when we were discussing this episode. And I don’t know how anyone can read through the Psalms and not think that we should be emotional. The Psalms were very emotional. And one psalm in particular that I always hold dearly, is Psalm 88. You know, a lot of the Psalms, even in their sadness, they come to a conclusion of yet the Lord is good. But Psalm 88, is the only Psalm that doesn’t end on a good note, Psalm 88. And in a bleak note, and yet, there’s still glimpses of like salvation and grace in that song. And for me, that Psalm has been such an encouragement to me that, even in the days where I can’t get myself, to utter the words of praise and end on a good note, the Lord is still there for me. And there’s validation in that God knows that we have those deep and dark days where we cannot muster up enough faith to utter those words, God still sees us and he still loves us.

Aixa De Lopez
He can handle it, yes, she can handle it. How how we edit our prayers, tells a lot about who we think God is. I’ve learned to let go of so much. And, you know, sometimes people assume, wrongly, that you have this exuberant prayer life and just like edit it, and if you could listen in to my prayer, sometimes I’m like a six year old, but I know my father can handle it. And so that is a very comforting thought for me what you just said, God gave us the emotions not to be run over by them, but they are real, and he can in wants us to come to Him. And you are absolutely right. During the most darkest time in my life, the only Bible reading that I could actually stomach was the Psalms. It gave me language, it gave me permission to come to God with a mess of everything. And it’s there. It’s explicit, and it’s beautiful, in it acceptable, it’s part of the canon.

Blair Linne
It’s good. I think about you know, just our weakness. And you know, God’s strength is made perfect in our weakness. And I think often, you know, whether we’re struggling with mental health or struggling with our emotions, or, you know, just tempted towards depression, that the reality is, I think it’s pointing us to the fact that we are weak, that we’re needy, and we have a God who’s here, ready to bear our burdens. A God who understands, you know, who cares for us? who sympathizes with our weaknesses. And, and it’s interesting because, you know, when you’re struggling with mental health, so, you know, I mentioned really struggling with anxiety and panic attacks in particular, for about four or so years, and it’s kind of started after having this car accident and I had never struggled or never even thought of myself as like an anxious person. And I remember I would, you know, have other people who would come and say that they struggle with anxiety. It’s like, oh, just trust the Lord. You know, you’re gonna be okay. And then you go through Would you realize, hmm, this is different. There’s so much nuance here. And it’s a reminder of the reality that we that we sit in every day, which is that we are needy, we are weak. And I had to learn in those very hard that hard season. What does it mean to cast my carries over to the Lord? And I had to confess that, I don’t know what that means. Yeah, I’ve read the Scripture, read Philippians, four over and over again. But I really don’t practically know what it means to give this over to the Lord and learning to pray without ceasing. That every moment that I felt anxious, I would just cry out to God, in my mind, you know, I might be having dinner with friends. And I feel like, I’m about to hyperventilate, or I feel like I want to faint and I just had to learn what, you know, to say, God helped me, I need you right now, you know, helped me to calm down and helped me to, you know, be able to see what’s actually happening in this moment, this is a safe place that you’re here. And it’s safe, not because of anything, circumstantially, it’s safe. Because God is here. It’s safe, because you’re with me, Emmanuel, you know, and you’ll never leave me and, and that, like, really transformed me. In so many ways. It made me grateful to be able to experience anxiety, because it helped me to realize I need God. And, you know, I remember even Johnny Erickson Tada who you know, struggles with, you know, physical pain, and being a quadriplegic. And I remember her saying, like, I was preparing for a conference once, and we were on a prayer call together. And she prayed, and she said, God, like, helped me to breathe. And, and just the reality that like, we all need that level of help and dependency, but we just don’t realize it. Like, the reason that we’re breathing right now is because of the Lord. You know, the reason we’re able to tie our shoe is because of the Lord. And I think when we’re in a season of suffering like this, it just reminds us, I need You, Lord, you know, every moment, you know,

Soojin Park
yeah, I think what you just said, just really resonates with my heart, because like, a big part of my personal story is having been sexually assaulted when I was a child, and living with the trauma of that, and going through long seasons of my life, of depression, going to counseling, working through it. And, you know, I always get reminded of the idea of like, the thorn in the side for Paul. And I think there was a moment in my life where I just came to this realization that this may be the thorn in my side, that I may never be freed of this completely in my life. But there’s nothing else in my life that makes me realize how much I need the Lord. And if this is the way in which the Lord will draw me to himself, then praise the Lord. And I think there’s been, you know, seasons of my life where, and I’m sure anyone who’s been through depression could understand that, like, it’s hard to explain that. You just feel walled in, you feel, there’s no escape, you’re stuck in a box in your own head. And you can explain that to people. And it’s so internal. And you feel so much that it’s your fault that you can’t get out of it. And I just remember, like, there’s been so many seasons like that, where I’m just at the end of my rope, feeling completely, like the world around me has stopped. Yet the LORD is still good to me. And yet, I still have hope that one day, I’m not just gonna have a perfect physical body, I’m gonna have a perfect mind. I’m gonna have a perfect mind that is free this torture and pain, where we can actually be happy every day. And I just want that to be an encouragement to all of our listeners who may struggle with mental health. Like part of the promise of new Heaven and new Earth is you’re gonna have a new mind. And you’re never going to suffer with sadness, you’re never going to cry, tears of sadness, you’re never going to feel anxious, you’re never going to have trouble breathing, all of those things. And I think, to know that, that is our hope. In those dark times, I mean, I go back to like the Psalms, right. I feel like at the end of the day, you have to cling on to what is greater than just even the temporary relief we look for here on Earth.

Aixa De Lopez
Yeah. And as somebody that walks alongside a dear sister with bouts of depression and a young mother, I just want to encourage all of us that don’t suffer in that particular way. Don’t try to fix another person, don’t try to fix them, don’t try to make them happy. By any superficial means, be there, listen, and even just send a meal, and hug. And in on days where they want to be left alone, it’s fine. Don’t try to make them do something that they know not ready to do and, you know, show patience that also preaches the gospel. Be kind. I think those sins

Sharon Dickens
say it’s one of the most important things that we can all do. And that is walk alongside. When people are broken and hurt when they’re struggling with pain, when we’re listening to your own voice in our head. It doesn’t, it’s not a big ask to come alongside and love them well, and just walk alongside them with that. You don’t have to talk while you’re walking. You literally can just be in it was a mix.

Blair Linne
That’s one of the most wonderful things that I’ve observed in the book of Job is his friends. And at the very least, before they open their mouth for seven days and seven nights, I believe it was fair.

Aixa De Lopez
We’re doing so good. I

Sharon Dickens
actually don’t think that’s such a bad point. I think there’s times we feel we need to say something. Yeah. When actually just to be in there. Yeah. Is what someone needs? Yes.

Aixa De Lopez
Don’t pretend to know, we don’t know. It’s too deep. And we don’t need to know. We need to be there.

Blair Linne
Right. And we don’t need to say I understand when you don’t. Yeah. Any other thoughtful things? What’s been helpful for you, for those who’ve walked beside you? Would you say?

Soojin Park
Yeah, I mean, again, I think when people mean really well, when they say things, but on this end, the nothing you’re saying is new. They’re all thoughts that I’ve had before as well. And they’ve all they’re all thoughts that I’ve gone through, I think some of the most helpful things for me have, you know, in days where I can’t muster up the strength to just be jolly and normal. My friends just treating me normal. They don’t make a big deal out of the fact that I can’t be happy that day, we just go get a meal together. I love movies, maybe we won’t go watch a movie together. And they asked me if I’m okay. And if you know, I don’t want to talk about it, we move on, you know, I think to part of it is I don’t know about you all. But like when I’m in that, that, that phase, part of what’s hard is I just feel so disconnected from everyone around me and the world around me. Like I feel so isolated. And it’s just so helpful for someone to just treat me like a normal being in part of their everyday life. And so something that seems so meaningless is actually very meaningful to someone like me, and I think everyone is different. You got to ask that person. How can I help? But for me, that’s been really helpful.

Blair Linne
Any resources that you guys recommend on the topic?

Aixa De Lopez
Yeah. Dan Allender’s podcast is excellent. Anything he wrote?

Soojin Park
Yeah, I love Dan Allender. And anyone I just want to say anyone who is an adult and has gone through childhood sexual trauma like myself, he has a book called The wounded heart that has been transformative in my life and I highly recommend that is

Aixa De Lopez
rage. I will also recommend Diane langberg books are fantastic. So yeah, go get everything that she has ever published is fantastic.

Sharon Dickens
I’ve also really found Ed Welsh stuff really helpful. He does this little book called and little book of it’s a small book for anxious hearts and be the one that I found most helpful was it does depression it’s like looking at from the the stubborn darkness and he really tackles it really well. There’s also another one that’s a bit bizarre but he preserved just because it’s not quite when you look at you think it’s not there’s not going to be I want to eat there’s this one called blame it on the brain. And when you started to think through some of the reasons for why you’re feeling like we were talking about They are. It may or may not, it may be more than it may be a health issue, it might be something and so he helps you think through those things. I found those really, really helpful. Actually.

Blair Linne
That’s good. I guess I would just add a spiritual depression by Martyn Lloyd Jones as well. This has been rich. Thank you, ladies for sharing.

Soojin Park
Can I add one more resource? Absolutely. I think that’s been really helpful. For me. It’s this short little writing by BB Warfield called the emotional life of our Lord. And he basically just explores the range of emotions that Jesus felt in his humanity here on earth while still being sinless. And it’s this affirmation that your, your emotions are not all caused by sin. And I think it really is a comforting read, because it reminds you that Jesus truly can sympathize with you in all your range of emotions. So I highly recommend that one.

Sharon Dickens
Awesome. Thanks, ladies. I want to thanks to Jen feel like even though we talk about it, and I know, it’s my thing, and I go on about law. I sometimes think that is older women, when we open ourselves up, and are honest about what’s going on in our hearts, or struggles and the things that have happened to us encourages the younger Christians to go out there need to have this conversation to, and then we get the chance to walk alongside and so appreciate appreciate your bravery there. Um, I want to shine the light on our differences. Um, as usual, I want to think through besides pre n, right, which is where we would all go I mean, we know this first place Puerto Rico, but what other things do you think have helped to take care of your emotional well being? Play? Right, and we’ll start with you. Yeah,

Blair Linne
I love going to the beach, as well. I think just being in nature, and being able to slow down. So one of the things that I I love, I love taking the bus, like public transportation, because I don’t have to drive I get slowed down. I can read a book, go to the beach, walk the beach pray. So any nature, that’s just my jam. And I feel like gives me clarity of mind. Yeah, helps me to, like think through things well.

Soojin Park
For me, I love spending time with my dog, Jimmy. I just think there’s this kind of peace that only comes to me when I’m sitting there petting my dog. I’m a huge believer that God gave us dogs for our own emotional and mental well being.

Sharon Dickens
He’s a helper dog.

Soojin Park
Yes, yes. You know, I My dogs are rescue and that, you know, I adopted my dog thinking I’m going to help her but she’s just I feel like she’s rescued me. She’s I’m, you know, she’s like my therapy dog.

Blair Linne
What kind of dog do you have?

Soojin Park
She’s a mutt, she’s a rescue from Thailand. Like a street dog. Yeah.

Aixa De Lopez
So I guess I would go with dialing Burke’s advice to seek beauty in any form. And for me, it’s dancing. I love meeting gay I love your show him later when we celebrate our on Season Finale, you know. But I love I love happy music, I dance I move. I’ve given myself the permission for years I didn’t cuz it was, you know, deemed upon like sinful in the congregation or the circle that I that I was part of before. And I’ve read I’ve recently found so much joy in Connect, reconnecting my body in this walk with Christ. And I know the Lord smiles when he sees me doing my Merengue moves in my room.

Sharon Dickens
I find I have one of those brains that just turns things over all the time. And so there’s a few things that can make it go quiet and so for me, one of the things that’s really really helpful is it I take my my dog and I start walking up the hill and I think the first half half of the walk is me processing and nature the sounds everything my brains just trying to fail everything in the right order. Process what I’m thinking and then I started having a conversation with myself. What is it that’s really going on with you and the dogs oblivious or friend and she said some sort of rabbit but the whole time is this Walk is a safe place to just walk and think through what’s going on with like nausea. I’m not a big fan of walking with someone at that moment. If Like to silence that conversation with God as we go. So yeah, I do the walk the dog is always happy to chase and Robert Thanksgivings.

Soojin Park
Well, thank you, everyone for joining us on this episode. I know it was a little heavy, but I also feel more lighthearted. I feel like it was so good for us to just share and talk about this topic that can be so stigmatized in our churches and for all of our listeners. As we end I just want to remind you that no matter what you’re struggling with, no matter what kind of anxieties or mental health you may be wrestling with, you are still the light of the world. A city that is set upon a hill shall not be hidden. Neither do men light a candle and put it under a basket but on a light stand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. In the same way. Let your light shine before others so that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven. Thank you for joining us and please join us next week for our final episode.