The One Where We Offend Everyone

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0:00:00 – (Courtney Doctor): I think so often we want it to be where we’re just pointing fingers at everybody, like, you don’t understand and you don’t know my hurt and you don’t know my story, instead of just saying, okay, wait a minute, I’m actually not going to be able to change everybody else about this. And going back to, like, their motive isn’t even wrong in this. Like, they’re just either ignorant or unaware, whatever it is.

0:00:31 – (Melissa Kruger): Hi, friends. Welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition where we love having deep conversations about deep truths. I’m Melissa Krueger, and I’m here with my friend and co host, my friend and co host, Courtney Docter.

0:00:46 – (Courtney Doctor): Hey, I am. I can’t decide if I’m excited about today’s conversation or a little, like, little fear and trepidation over today’s topic, but what we’re going to. And I loved the title, so we don’t always come up with the titles, but I thought that it was a great title, the one where we offend everyone. Because that’s what we’re going to be talking about. This idea that, you know, we just are living in a time where it just feels like being offended is not only prevalent, but incredibly acceptable, almost expected.

0:01:20 – (Courtney Doctor): It’s almost like a. It’s almost become like a, A virtue in some ways, which we’re going to talk about just this idea of being offended or easily offended. And so, and I don’t think it’s just in kind of the world. I think it’s in the church. Absolutely in the church, too. So we’re going to dive into this.

0:01:40 – (Melissa Kruger): Courtney, are you talking about me? I’m feeling kind of like, offended that you’re directing this to me. No, we are.

0:01:48 – (Courtney Doctor): We are.

0:01:49 – (Melissa Kruger): We are going to try not to offend everyone, hopefully. But I do, I do think this is a really good topic because I do think people are really quick to take offense in our day and age. It can be whether you said the wrong thing on social media or perhaps you didn’t post on social media. You know, like, I’ve been, I’ve, I’ve been approached about why I didn’t say something about something. You know, I’m like, wow, I’m offending by not saying.

0:02:12 – (Melissa Kruger): Or you’re offending by saying it could be the way the church announcement was written, somehow it was offensive, you know, or, or maybe what time was picked for the church picnic or whatever. It seems like in our day and age, we can be looking for ways to be offended. And like you said, I do think it can be a badge of honor. So do you see this kind of as part of a larger victim mentality in our culture? You know, it’s. It’s like it used.

0:02:41 – (Melissa Kruger): I think it used to be different. You never shared what was hard. And that has its own set of problems. But right now I feel like we’ve moved into a. You’re known by your problems. I don’t know. What do you think?

0:02:54 – (Courtney Doctor): Well, I think that the victim mentality connection is actually really helpful because in some ways that to be offended is to kind of put ourselves in the place of. Of the one who was. Was victimized, you know, So I think that that’s actually a really good correlation. But I think both of those victim mentality and, and easily offended. And, and I will talk later probably about like, true victimization, like tr. Like, I’m not talking about that. That’s not what we’re talking about here. But I do think that the underlying issue is the fact that we are living in a culture that prioritizes self above all things.

0:03:38 – (Courtney Doctor): And so that prioritization of self above everything else and above everybody else, I think is at the root of this. And you, you double that or you compound it by the fact that we are very feelings based, Very feelings based right now. Like your feelings and my feelings about any given situation or topic are preeminent. I mean, and they’re not. I mean, I’m saying that’s kind of the cultural moment is like how you feel about this thing is.

0:04:11 – (Courtney Doctor): So you are most important and your feelings about. Yeah, yeah, so it’s you and your feelings. Those are going to be like the preeminent thing. And so I think that that’s why, that’s why we’re seeing it right now. So victimization, easily offended, they kind of all go together. I was, I was remembering two Timothy where Paul was writing that in the last days. And, you know, we all know that, like from the time of the ascension until he comes again. That’s what the Bible calls the last days.

0:04:42 – (Courtney Doctor): So it doesn’t mean, like, you know, we’re saying whatever date, you know, Jesus is coming again. Who knows? Please come again, Jesus. But the last days that we’re living in. Paul wrote to Timothy and he says that one of the marks of the age are people are going to be lovers of self. I’m like, yes, we see that. And then he says, lovers of money. But then he says, proud, arrogant, abusive, ungrateful. There’s other things in that list, but I think those are all Wrapped up in.

0:05:10 – (Courtney Doctor): In this, that. That create the situation. To be easily offended, to be a lover of self, to be proud, to be arrogant, to be ungrateful. Those all promote easy offenses.

0:05:22 – (Melissa Kruger): Yeah, we almost foster culturally, don’t you think? Like, it’s not just. It’s encouraged. Like, don’t let them talk to you that way. Don’t let. Yeah, and there’s a right. There’s. There’s a time. There is a time when someone’s saying something inappropriate. Like, there are certain things we shouldn’t say to other people. There’s a rightness to, hey, you shouldn’t. You shouldn’t be allowed to say certain things. But I think as a culture, we’re kind of fostering. She looked at you weird.

0:05:53 – (Melissa Kruger): You should be offended. You know, like everything becomes offense or just the. We’re so centered on me that we think, how could they not know not to say that to me? You know, and we look around and it’s this. But it’s just like you said, it’s lover of self that’s making us kind of look through all the lens of. That hurt me that, you know, offended me. Well, let me ask you this. What is the Bible? Let’s think about what the Bible.

0:06:22 – (Melissa Kruger): I think it’s a good place to start. What does the Bible talk about? Taking offense. Because it’s actually surprising how much it’s in there when we start to look at some of these passages. Like, One is Proverbs 10:12. Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all offenses. And then I thought this one was convicting even this morning. Whoever covers an offense seeks love, but he who repeats the matters separates close friends. So here’s an interesting thing.

0:06:55 – (Melissa Kruger): How do you see when we’re offended that we tend to repeat it?

0:06:58 – (Courtney Doctor): Oh, we love. I mean, it’s. To be offended by yourself is not gratifying. You know, we want other. I mean, it’s actually. I mean that actually to be offended by myself is actually. I think what we’re gonna get to. It’s this idea of. I use the word absorb. Like, I think we’re actually called to absorb offenses. And so here, where Scripture talks about it being. Covering, I think that the. The. The other way to think about that is, can I bear this alone? Can I just.

0:07:29 – (Courtney Doctor): I can’t always help the fact that I might feel hurt or. Or even offended about something. But this idea that I don’t have to go repeat it to everybody, I think it’s the. It’s in the repeating that it becomes this. This thing but it’s just not gratifying to be. I mean, that, that calls, like I have to dig deep into humility and love of others for me not to go repeat it to someone else. I remember one time I was in counseling and, and the counselor was saying something like, well, you need to confront this person over that.

0:08:03 – (Courtney Doctor): And I thought to myself, I don’t actually have to. I can, I can live with this for the rest of my life and not tell someone else. Like, I don’t, I don’t have to seek my kind of healing or peace, you know, whatever it is, through the repeating the matter to other people, even if it’s the person who offended me. So I, I just think like this idea of it, again, it goes back to the prioritization of self, like my feelings and me are the most important thing in any given situation, instead of, gosh, what if. What if I’m not the most important thing in any given situation?

0:08:49 – (Courtney Doctor): So I think this idea of repeating itself. But I was also thinking just back to script scriptural references about First Corinthians 13, which is this beautiful chapter on love. And it tells us the, the first thing Paul says is, is that love is two things, patient and kind. And some translations for the word patient use use the word long suffering. And even in Bible study last night I was talking about, somebody used the word long suffering. And I was talking about that word like that’s actually ultimately this is true about God, that he is long suffering. And so this idea that you bear with somebody for a long time, over and over, there are, There are repeated things that require patience, that require, you know, and there is suffering in it, but the fact that the Lord does that with us, like long suffering.

0:09:41 – (Courtney Doctor): So I just thought, like, that is such a good word for us as we talk about being easily offended, like, can we be long suffering with people? And then it goes on to say that it bears. That love bears all things. Gosh, I mean, can I bear. Yeah, it’s just, it’s exactly what you were saying, Melissa, about covering. Can we bear with. What were you gonna say?

0:10:01 – (Melissa Kruger): Well, yeah, I was just thinking, I, I do think part of our take offense culture is you’re supposed to confront in, in our Christian world, you’re supposed to confront sin every time you see it. And I, you know, and, and it actually says when someone’s caught in sin, you know, so, so like one off sins, I mean, there are sometimes one off sins need to be confronted. Look, you know, I mean, like that, that’s what I’m Saying, but like a one off.

0:10:27 – (Melissa Kruger): Oh, you know, somebody did something that was offensive or even sinful against me. Like, I think we can’t. We can call it, but sometimes we can just forgive it. Yeah. I think of Jesus on the cross. He just said, forgive them. They know not what they do because sometimes they’re not even aware that they’re sinning against you. So that’s also a whole different Cate. Sometimes people just have no idea.

0:10:52 – (Melissa Kruger): But, but I do think, you know, when we even think about when am I supposed to confront this in another person? Am I looking at, are they caught in a sin pattern or am I just offended? That’s a big difference. You know, like one is looking toward the other person and one is looking towards self. And we kind of want payment because you hurt me or whatever. And so we. I think that’s a helpful way to different.

0:11:22 – (Melissa Kruger): I’ve tried to differentiate between the two. Was I just hurt by that? But they’re not act. They weren’t actually being sinful, you know? You know, like, there’s a big difference when someone’s like, yeah, I don’t really love your pillows. They’re not sinful. To tell you that, like, I know

0:11:40 – (Courtney Doctor): I had someone take me to lunch one time and the whole purpose of the lunch I was to tell me that basically they just did not like my personality. And I was like, oh. And she was confessing to me, bitterness in her heart. And I was like, man, girl, you could have, you could have kept that to yourself. Like, that’s actually between you and the Lord. Like, I’m so sorry, but even this idea of like, quick to confront sin, oh my word. I want to be quick to confront my own sin in myself. Like, that’s where.

0:12:10 – (Courtney Doctor): That’s where focus on self is good. You know, Psalm 139 says, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me in the way everlasting. Like, that is the prayer we should be praying. Like, lord, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me in the way everlasting. Like, I want him to refine those offensive ways out of me. But you’re right, there’s such a big difference between, like, if, if somebody is caught in sin, that’s a totally different issue.

0:12:40 – (Courtney Doctor): But I was thinking Proverbs 18:19 says, A brother or sister offended is more unyielding than a strong city. And I just was like, is that not true? And that’s kind of what we do. We like build these walls like a strong city has a Lot of walls around it. And when we’re offended. So when we’re the offended one, you know, we build these walls and we usually punish them with the silent treatment or distance or, like, you no longer. I mean, that’s that strong city of, like, you’re not getting in again. Like, you are dead to me.

0:13:13 – (Courtney Doctor): It’s just, like, because we were offended.

0:13:16 – (Melissa Kruger): You know what’s ironic about that? You keep building those walls, you’re suddenly alone.

0:13:20 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah.

0:13:21 – (Melissa Kruger): It’s kind of a warning, right? Like, you might become a city of one if you’re offended by everyone. Like, and I think we see this in the church. Okay, we both worked in women’s ministry. How do we see this on the ground? And, like, we can. We can talk in generalities, but we’ve also felt it. You know, where do you. Where do you see, you know, when we’re together as women, like, we’re hearing the quick to take offense because sometimes it’s happening when the other person’s not there. We’re just hearing the chitter chatter, I can’t believe she said that to me. Or, yeah, well, they went to lunch together and didn’t invite me. You know what. What are some of those areas that we can get offended by as women that maybe we should choose to overlook?

0:14:09 – (Courtney Doctor): So I loved how you were. You started off by talking about, we can be offended by what people say and by what they don’t say, which is astounding to me. Like. Like this social media thing where people are paying attention to what you don’t say.

0:14:23 – (Melissa Kruger): I’m like.

0:14:24 – (Courtney Doctor): Like, oh, my word. Like, we have got to have more to do with our time than pay attention to what people are not saying, you know, But. But I think in the church and just in real life relationships, so often this idea of maybe not being appreciated, like. Like, she did not really notice all I was doing. Or I think it can happen in families. You know, there have been times that I’ve been, like, at the kitchen sink doing dishes.

0:14:53 – (Courtney Doctor): And in my mind, I’m just so offended that I’m the one doing the dishes. Like, I can’t believe I am the one standing here doing the dishes again. And then, you know, the Lord is usually very kind to bring to mind, you know, oh, well, did you mow the yard? Did you, you know, change the laundry? Did you? I don’t. Whatever it is, like, and right now in my life, we’ve got this multifamily, multi generational living situation going on in my house because we’ve had two adult children and their families move back in.

0:15:23 – (Courtney Doctor): And, you know, it’s easy. I’m sure every one of us could silently be thinking about how underappreciated we are instead of. So I just, I think that those are the way, like we didn’t get invited to something. So sometimes it’s the, it’s the thing that is said, like, I can’t believe she said that to me. And sometimes it’s just like what people don’t say. Like they didn’t say thank you or they didn’t say I did a good job or they didn’t, they weren’t appreciative.

0:15:54 – (Courtney Doctor): And sometimes I think you’ve said this before, it’s just that they say things wrong, you know, and so like talk about that. Like, how do you, how does love cover a multitude of offenses? By assuming motive.

0:16:07 – (Melissa Kruger): Yeah. I think, I’ll be honest. I think in the church, I have watched this happen. I’m sure you’ve watched this happening too. We do like a one up upper on suffering or something. So like someone’s pouring out their heart, you know, they’re sharing about a really hard thing that happened. I, I just remember this through the years watching this happen in ministry. So I’m not even going to say it happened to me, but I can remember watching like someone share about like the loss of a parent or the, you know, miscarriage or something like that. And then another, another person come in and they’re talking about like the loss of their pet.

0:16:42 – (Melissa Kruger): Now, you know, like we love our pets and things, but like sometimes it’s this, they just miss the mark. And I’m sitting there, watch it happen, and I’m thinking, you know, if I was that woman who just lost her parent and this person’s talking about losing their dog, I’d feel kind of offended. Like I’m w. I haven’t actually experienced that myself. I watched it happen and I’m like, oh. And it is just a time to absorb because the person who me meant well.

0:17:11 – (Melissa Kruger): Yeah, I mean, who was sharing their loss, they were trying to enter in. But we often just really do a clumsy job of it. And I know I do a clumsy job of it. So it’s helped. You know, I think, I think part of it is self reflecting on, oh, I didn’t say that very well to that person who was dealing with grief. You know, we try to fix things or we try to skirt past it and be like, it’ll be fine, it’ll be fine. And that can be really offensive to, to people and, and So I think it’s learning that.

0:17:44 – (Melissa Kruger): I think one of the most helpful things we can do when offend offended is pause and ask ourselves, when do I do this to other people? Maybe it’s actually a time for us to learn. Oh. Huh. That wasn’t very helpful when I said that to someone like that. I’m gonna. I’m gonna. I’m gonna try to do this differently. So it actually can be a real learning experience for us when we feel the barb or we feel the.

0:18:08 – (Melissa Kruger): That was just unthoughtful and try to be more thoughtful with other people. So it can be a good. A good way to think through it. But I think one thing you really hit on. I think one of the places we’re most offended is in our. In our. Whoever we’re living with, whether it’s a spouse, a roommate, children, parents, you know, it. It just is interesting how easy it is to get offended because it’s like your sin rubs up against my sin.

0:18:42 – (Melissa Kruger): And your bad habits actually now really impact me. And so it’s like, I’m offended because you left your underwear on the floor. I’m deeply offended because that means you weren’t thinking about me.

0:18:59 – (Courtney Doctor): Right.

0:18:59 – (Melissa Kruger): You know, I mean, like, it’s like. And it just rubs and you’re exactly right. We. We just get. It’s. It’s. When I’m normally the more tired I am, I get more self absorbed. And especially when it comes to chores and things around the house that need doing, I think that’s when we’re most likely to be like, you clearly don’t care about me. Like, it becomes this, if you cared about me, you would put your shoes in the place I asked you to put your shoes. Yeah.

0:19:28 – (Courtney Doctor): And you build those strong walls and we’re like, you’re getting the silent treatment over that.

0:19:32 – (Melissa Kruger): Yes, yes. And it isolates us from one another. So. So rather than maturely saying, hey, I’m really tired today, and I just. Could you help me clean up and say it again? And we don’t want to ask or whatever, but just being part of this is like learning how to maturely, even deal with our needs and our wants. So rather than like offense isolates, communication leans in, and that’s what we need to do. So sometimes we do need to share the things that are bothering us. Yeah. Especially in whomever you’re living with. Like, I know my kids, you know, they’re all living with roommates right now.

0:20:12 – (Melissa Kruger): One of my children told me they just put up a video camera to see who’s not cleaning up the dishes.

0:20:19 – (Courtney Doctor): No, no. Okay. I. Yeah, yeah.

0:20:23 – (Melissa Kruger): It’s a new world. It’s a new world.

0:20:25 – (Courtney Doctor): I’m like, no, that’s a way to find out world.

0:20:28 – (Melissa Kruger): But it, you know, it’s like, take

0:20:30 – (Courtney Doctor): the video camera down. Take the video camera down. Oh, my word. Crazy town.

0:20:38 – (Melissa Kruger): But then, but then, because everybody’s always like, oh, it wasn’t me, it wasn’t me, it wasn’t me, or whatever. So now they’re like, we’re gonna find out who it was. But I do think there’s this sense where sometimes though, what you do like. And I can remember this even with my kids, when they don’t do the dishes. Right. Or they don’t do it, sometimes you just absorb it. You just take on the extra work at work.

0:21:01 – (Melissa Kruger): Maybe it’s in your workplace. Sometimes you just take on the extra work and you say, the Lord sees, I’m not gonna be offended by this. I’m just gonna give here and I’m gonna give to the Lord. And I think what you were saying even earlier is, well, I’m okay with cleaning the dishes as long as everyone’s calling me Saint Melissa. And like, thank you, mom, or thank you, wife. Yeah, like, whatever. And so it is. We can be offended by so many different things in our world today. And so. Okay, go ahead.

0:21:34 – (Courtney Doctor): No, I just wanted to ask you, as we were thinking about that. So there are things that are offensive, right? And so. So we’re not talking about situations where, you know, there is. There is obvious abuse or even. I was thinking about it. You know, there are like, sometimes we might be in a situation where somebody tells a joke that. Sorry, a joke, you know, and it is offensive. And I want to act offended. I want to say something in that moment. Like, that is not an okay thing to say.

0:22:08 – (Courtney Doctor): So there are. There are actually offensive situations. Right? And there are just even like, you’re talking about this lack of self awareness. There are times that, whether it’s people in our families, our church, or communities where people are insensitive and offensive and they’re. They’re kind of just. Either they’re either blind to their own offensiveness or they just kind of, for whatever reason, in their own story has caused, you know, them to be broken in this way that they like to be offensive.

0:22:45 – (Courtney Doctor): I know a couple people like that, that there’s just like, there’s joy in being offensive. And it’s like, so what do you do, like, when somebody is. Say it’s just insensitive. Say you experience Somebody’s lack of self awareness. And it really is insensitive to your own story or to your own hurt or to your own just soul. Like, what. What are our options? So when we are truly offended about something, where we are hurt by something, what are our options? And. And what is the better one?

0:23:24 – (Melissa Kruger): Yeah, yeah, that’s good. Well, and I think it depends on a few things. You know, there is answerful according to his folly, and you’ll be like him yourself. I mean, so. So there are some people who just love offending. And. And they’re. They might not be work. Like, it might. The conversation might not be helpful. You know, some people just are like, they’re gonna be like, no, that’s just me. You just deal with me. You know, this. I’m gonna. I’m a truth teller is what they’re gonna say, you know, or whatever. And so I.

0:23:52 – (Courtney Doctor): And.

0:23:53 – (Melissa Kruger): And even the depth of your relationship with someone who, you know, I. I think that’s really dependent upon it. So, like, look, if it’s you and me and like we’re real friends, and if I’m like, hey, Courtney, you know, when you make fun of I don’t know what, it actually hurts my feelings. You would. Here’s what I know about you. You’d be like, oh my goodness, I’m so sorry. You know, and it would be worth it to enter in and say, hey, just so you know, that’s actually a sensitive place for me.

0:24:27 – (Melissa Kruger): I know you don’t mean harm by it, like. Cause I’m seeing the good in you. But I just want you to know it hurts. It hurts me. I’m really sensitive about, you know, the fact that my hair’s frizzy and you make jokes about it or whatever. Like, whatever silly thing.

0:24:43 – (Courtney Doctor): For the record, for the record, I don’t.

0:24:46 – (Melissa Kruger): Yeah, she does it. And I can’t think of a good example because you actually don’t do this

0:24:50 – (Courtney Doctor): because my hair is frizzy.

0:24:52 – (Melissa Kruger): And you’re not. You’re not a person out to offend. So I think, I think this does. You know, there is a question of, am I the person to talk to them about this issue? And sometimes we are the person to talk to them about an issue. Like, hey, you seem to love controversy in a way, and you may not know what your words are doing to affect people. I think there are certain issues. Like sometimes if people are saying, like if a bunch of women are together and they’re saying how bad their husbands are, or if a bunch of men are saying how women are always this way. I think there’s a right place to go and say, hey, I think, I think you may not know it’s really offensive when you say that, you know, but I like to do it one on one.

0:25:40 – (Melissa Kruger): I like to do it when the situation’s calmed. Try to really remember, hey, when you said it this way, here’s why it offended. And so I think there really is a place for that.

0:25:51 – (Courtney Doctor): So often the places that we’re truly offended, truly hurt and are places that are born out of our story. So I even remember after my father in law died very suddenly of a heart attack, I was so, I was really offended when people would use the phrase serious as a heart attack. It was, you know, but I, I’ve seen other areas in my life like that where it’s like, oh, all of a sudden I have an experience with something and then that makes me very sensitive to.

0:26:22 – (Courtney Doctor): So, you know, I think for, you know, anybody who has experienced infertility or infant loss of any kind, you know, then when, when there’s a group of women sitting around talking about how hard their babies are, you know, they’re, they can be hurt by that or offended if somebody, you know, like you said, a group of women are sitting around talking about how horrible their husbands are and then our single friends are sitting there and thinking, well, they’re, it’s like these things that are in our lives that, that whatever it is, you know, children with special needs, all of a sudden you become very attune to that particular special need. And people’s ignorance on that can be very offensive. And so I think even being kind of self aware and humble enough to realize, okay, my story is actually playing a big part in what I’m feeling right now and, and growing in the ability to say like my kind of back to what I said in the beginning, like my healing, my hope, my joy, my peace is not going to come through getting the rest of the world to stop talking about this issue in that way.

0:27:36 – (Courtney Doctor): That’s actually not where I think so often we want it to be, where we’re just pointing fingers at everybody. Like, you don’t understand and you don’t know my hurt and you don’t know my story. Instead of just saying, okay, wait a minute, I’m actually not going to be able to change everybody else about this and going back to like their motive isn’t even wrong in this. Like they’re just either ignorant or unaware, whatever it is, but, but that I actually compress into like the gospel in Christ for My healing in that, that, that he’s the one that understands, he’s the one that sees, he’s the one that knows and, and he’s the one that suffers. Like he enters into our suffering. And so I don’t know, there’s, that’s kind of a half baked idea but,

0:28:23 – (Melissa Kruger): but I do, I think it’s a really good one. Like I, I actually think what you just said is really like one of those we need to press pause on. Because in some ways what I realize we’re expecting other people to be is to be all knowing. We’re expecting them to be God. Do you know, like we’re expecting them to be so aware of our needs and so aware of what we’re going through. You know, they’re just another little finite being running around and they often don’t remember like, you know, we don’t remember like.

0:28:59 – (Melissa Kruger): And so you, you know, you get in conversations, I leave a conversation sometimes I’m like, I totally forgot to ask about that huge thing going on in her life and she doesn’t think I care and I really care. I, I just forgot in that moment when we were in that conversation. And so I think what you’re saying and reminding us of is there is one who always knows, who always sees, who always remembers and he is always there and always caring and he’s that one person that we can go to and know. He will know every detail of our situation and always be there with comfort and love and care.

0:29:41 – (Melissa Kruger): And we’re maybe wanting from others what only God can give in some sense. So I think that’s just a really profound point that you kind of brought us to in this, that it’s good to, it’s good to park on. And so we’re going to go to a break from our sponsors really quickly so we can keep thinking about that as you listen to what our sponsors have to tell us. Thanks friends. Hey friends. Welcome back. We’ve been talking about being offended, offending others and I think all of us want to be women, hopefully, who don’t offend others.

0:30:16 – (Melissa Kruger): But sometimes just because we are Christians, people are offended by us. Courtney, how have you seen that? What’s the reality of that in our world and how do we live that out as Christians knowing Sometimes I recognize the very things I believe about the Bible are just deeply hurtful to some people. Like they look at what I believe. I mean just the exclusive nature of Jesus, the fact that I believe there’s one way to heaven and I believe there’s a literal Hell, that is very offensive.

0:30:52 – (Melissa Kruger): So how do we hold these views that some people will think make us hateful, spiteful people just for what we. We have? How do we, how do we sit in that, that we’re going to offend just by being Christians?

0:31:06 – (Courtney Doctor): Well, and I think so, I don’t think we’re just going to offend by being Christians. I think the, like you said, it’s the message that can be offensive. And to remember that, like, the person is not. I mean, Paul goes out of his way to be like, do not be offensive. Do not be offensive. But then he’s also like, the gospel is incredibly offensive. Like, he holds it. And so even to know what is being offensive.

0:31:31 – (Courtney Doctor): So, you know, Romans 9:3, he’s like, I am putting this stumbling block in front of people. And it is called the rock of offense in Romans 9:33. So it is exactly what you were talking about. The offensive thing of the gospel is, is its exclusivity. The fact that we don’t say, yeah, there’s a lot of ways to God. There’s a lot of, you know, different paths to, you know, Jesus was clear. He is the way, the truth, the life. And no one comes to the Father except through him.

0:32:06 – (Courtney Doctor): And, and we do believe in this, yeah. Eternal place of, of separation from God that’s called hell. And it’s, it’s awful. Right. And so that offends people, but we are not meant to be offensive. I mean, he says, give no offense. He became all things to all people so that, you know, he says so that I could win some. And so there’s this difference between being offended by the gospel and being offensive in our proclamation of the gospel.

0:32:42 – (Courtney Doctor): And I think what we’re seeing, and maybe it’s always been this way, you know, you and I talk all the time that we don’t want to overplay this, our current cultural moment, because nothing is new under the sun. But so maybe it’s always been this way. But I do think that, you know, we’ve talked before in, in previous episodes about the difference between primary, secondary and tertiary issues, first, second and third place issues.

0:33:05 – (Courtney Doctor): And so first place issues are, they’re gospel, they’re central to the gospel. They are the idea that Jesus was, you know, born of a virgin, he lived a sinless life, he died and raised again. He was fully God, fully man, the Trinity. Like, these are issues that, if that’s where the offense is coming, then that is the offense of the gospel. But we’re not even separating and being offended over secondary Issues like, oh, you don’t believe in infant baptism or you’d only believe in, you know, whatever it is. Like, we’re, we’re offended over these third place tertiary issues, like how we vote, how we decide to, you know, breast or bottle feed, how we decide to educate our children. You know, I mean, there are just so many of these issues that have become incredible like place they’re the stumbling blocks of offense.

0:34:07 – (Courtney Doctor): And scripture is like, that is not meant to be the place that we’re offended. Like, you have freedom to educate your children differently than I did. You have freedom to, you know, to choose whether you vaccinate or not. Like, these are not the areas that we’re meant to be offended over. And so, so it’s just interesting, like, we have flipped the script what scripture tells us to not be at all offended over.

0:34:42 – (Courtney Doctor): We are.

0:34:43 – (Melissa Kruger): Or what we give offense for. Like, what you’re almost saying is like, what we’re willing to hold so hard that it might offend someone else. So yes, like, what are you will willing to hold on to? And if it’s like your schooling choice, is that worth offending others for or, you know, or whatever it might be. I mean, I can remember years ago in some ways, and this gets back to kind of like our marks of righteousness episode.

0:35:09 – (Melissa Kruger): So where we kind of feel our pride is where we’re willing to offend others in some sense. And I can, you know, there was just a season where it was almost like more godly, where you chose to live in town, you know, like the

0:35:27 – (Courtney Doctor): suburbs were totally out.

0:35:30 – (Melissa Kruger): You know, if you’re living in the suburbs, you’re maybe not a Christian, right? Because I mean, where are you sharing the gospel if you’re in the suburbs or what? Yeah, I mean, like, and it was just. And you know, and so one. Is that where you want to stake your claim? So it’s also about where we’re gonna choose to be. Like, my life might be offensive and so on certain issues, you know, when, when my views on sexuality are extremely offensive in our world today, right. Like, I believe sex should be between a man and a woman in the context of marriage.

0:36:03 – (Melissa Kruger): Okay. That’s like, everyone’s out. Like, I mean, like. And so it’s an offensive view because, you know, like, people just don’t like it. But I’ll take a stand there because it’s the biblical view. And so we’ve got to say, where are we willing to take the stand on what God says is important and where, where, you know, where is it? And on certain issues that even though we may think biblically, like baptism or something, we kind of, we kind of choose to live at peace with each other and not get completely offended all the time.

0:36:37 – (Melissa Kruger): But there are some issues where we have to realize my view on this is going to be offensive to people. And that’s hard.

0:36:44 – (Courtney Doctor): It is. But, but here’s where I think so many Christians go wrong. And that is they say so like amen to what you just said. We hold these views that are offensive and then therefore they become offensive with their views. So I think like the difference is I want to hold my offensive view deeply and truly and biblically, but then I want to move towards people in a non offensive way with my offensive view. Does that make sense?

0:37:15 – (Melissa Kruger): Yep.

0:37:16 – (Courtney Doctor): You know, that we’re moving towards people instead of like, you know, if so, yes. I mean, amen. Like our biblical sexual ethic is offensive in the world today. But what does that mean that you do with your same sex neighbors, you know, that are, you know, two women married and does that mean that you just build your walls, right, like you build your wall between them? Because my view is that that is wrong. I am therefore going to distance myself from those people or do you say my deeply held view and the gospel actually compels me to move towards people.

0:37:56 – (Courtney Doctor): And so I just think there’s a difference between an offensive view and being offensive with your views.

0:38:01 – (Melissa Kruger): That’s right. That’s right. I think what we have to expect is that even if we are kind and loving and patient and move toward, some will reject us just because of the message that we hold dear like that. So, so that, and I think that’s what’s difficult for a people pleaser. You know, I think we have to accept that sometimes we become representative of the biblical story and that’s hard. So we do become basically that representative of the rock of offense.

0:38:31 – (Melissa Kruger): You know, that there’s one way. There’s, you know, and everything but our. But we should be the most understanding of anyone who doesn’t actually hold our views because what we know is that the things of the Spirit can’t be discerned without the Spirit. So in a lot of ways we should be the most understanding of why non Christians do not get my worldview. I totally get why they don’t get my worldview because the only reason I have my worldview is because the Spirit has opened my eyes to see the things of God and then empowered you

0:39:05 – (Courtney Doctor): to live according to it.

0:39:07 – (Melissa Kruger): Yes, yes. So there’s no like, oh, I have a Better view than you. It’s. I’ve been changed. And so I should be able to bear very patiently with, you know, views that are against Christianity in a lot of ways and actually understand why they’re offended at my views. Like, we can hold that tension because, you know, I mean, the scripture actually caused not, like, a person who doesn’t know Christ. Blind.

0:39:35 – (Melissa Kruger): I was blind, and now I see. And so it’s kind of like looking at someone and saying, how can you see the things of God without the Spirit of God? You can’t.

0:39:43 – (Courtney Doctor): Exactly.

0:39:44 – (Melissa Kruger): And so we should be highly unoffendable by our culture. And so, unfortunately, those Christians were often very offended by our culture. And it’s right to care about the things of God. Right. I mean, Jesus went in the temple, and when he saw the temple changers, he was very, very upset about what was happening. So it is right to care about what pleases God. We don’t want to. We don’t want to say that’s not important.

0:40:08 – (Melissa Kruger): But the way we do it needs to be really thoughtful and with compassion to those who don’t know God. Yeah. You know, in a lot of ways.

0:40:16 – (Courtney Doctor): Oh, that’s so good. That’s so good, Melissa. And so true. I mean, I’ve said before, like, yeah, without the Spirit, your eyes aren’t opened. And without the Spirit, you can’t even align your life with, like, the. The biblical mandates. Like, it’s just. It’s impossible. It requires the Spirit to both see it and. And do it. Well, I want to ask you a question. Okay. So we all know people that are just easily offended, Right. And very prickly. Very.

0:40:43 – (Courtney Doctor): I kind of feel like I’m walking on eggshells, like, tiptoeing around people like that. Because I just know, like, I’m gonna say the wrong thing. I’m gonna say the right thing the wrong way. I’m going to. Like, I just. I just know that they are going to be easily offended. So what should. Should we be offended by their offendability? Like, should. Should their offensiveness or their ease, Their ease at which they’re offended, be offensive to us? Like, what do we do with people that are.

0:41:10 – (Courtney Doctor): That are like that? Because we all know those people. And Lord, please help us not be those people. Like, please help me not be those people.

0:41:20 – (Melissa Kruger): I don’t like this question, Courtney, because I’ll be honest, I’m a little bit tempted to run the other way. Like, easily offended people kind of scare me because I’m like, oh, I mean, I really hate to be offensive people.

0:41:33 – (Courtney Doctor): Exhaust me. I know, yes.

0:41:35 – (Melissa Kruger): And it’s like, oh, that hurt, that hurt, that hurt. You know, and you just. So I have to lean in and be willing to just take it and just to remember the Lord how much I must offend the Lord. And he patiently and tenderly deals with me, and he keeps welcoming me back. That’s grace, and that’s walking with others with graciousness. And I need to do that better. Because my temptation when I’m around an easily offended person who seems highly sensitive is to just think, yeah, I’m gonna call a different friend to go do that, you know, and that’s, you know, I need to remember a lot of time, like you said earlier, an easily offended person comes with a story that’s really hard.

0:42:29 – (Melissa Kruger): And perhaps this is the place where we need to lean in and love, you know, with just a deep graciousness. And I feel really convicted about that. Like, I need to do that. Well, like you said, absorb it. Just absorb it and keep loving, you know, and enter in. What do you think about when you think about easily offended people?

0:42:50 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah, I think it is exhausting. And I don’t want to be that person because you just think, oh, my word, like, I can’t say or do anything right. And you just feel like, yeah, I mean, they’re looking for it. It’s the self absorption, too, of being easily offended. I mean, that self prioritization of, like, you’re the most important person in the room and what you’re feeling is gonna, you know, win the day. It just. It gets exhausting after a while. And so I think even, like, this idea of knowing.

0:43:24 – (Courtney Doctor): So knowing what to do when we have offended somebody because there are times that we offend people, that it is so clear, the only response is repentance and to move towards that person, like that is. That is clear. But there are other times where it’s. You just start seeing this pattern of, like, actually, what I did wasn’t. I mean, it’s hard because you can’t, you know, you can’t dictate how somebody else feels about it. But there are those times where, you know, that it shouldn’t.

0:43:59 – (Courtney Doctor): I think we err on the side of repentance and moving towards by far. But I think there are those situations where maybe this idea, you know, Ephesians 4:15, that we speak the truth in love and we help each other grow up in Christ. I think there is a time and certain relationships where we can move towards that person and even have this conversation about, you know, maybe send them a copy of the podcast and say, hey, can we. I’m just kidding. I’m totally kidding.

0:44:35 – (Courtney Doctor): But, you know, this idea of moving towards somebody to have the conversation of, like, I do feel like I walk on eggshells around you, and I would like to not. I want you to know, like, my heart is for you. I am not. I am not trying to be offensive. I do not want to hurt you. I will at times, and I want you to come to me. But I would also like to have the foundation of a relationship with you that we’re not tiptoeing around each other because we’re so fragile, you know? And so I. I think there are times to have those conversations, but I think this idea of, like, that we can offend God, like we do. Scripture talks about that. That he is.

0:45:20 – (Courtney Doctor): I had written down Isaiah 59, that the Lord saw that there was no justice and he was offended. Oh. Like, I think about, you know, how when I feel offended, and then to think like, the Lord in righteousness, in truth, in purity and holiness, is offended by our sins. I mean, that should humble us in. In a way that. That nothing else, that nothing else actually does. But what about you? What do you think about Christlike ways to respond when we’ve. When we’ve offended somebody?

0:45:57 – (Melissa Kruger): Yeah, I think one thing that you just said that I do want to even hit on a little bit more. When you were talking about a person who’s sensitive, and you, you know, you kind of lean in a little bit and confront some of that. Normally, if it’s a big pattern, it won’t be just to us. So, you know, for instance, if the person comes and be like, courtney looked at me weird again. I mean, sometimes you can do it in a situation that’s not about you.

0:46:25 – (Melissa Kruger): And so I could be like, no, I know Courtney. She loves you. You know, sometimes I do think there’s an opportunity with a overly sensitive, offensive person to do it on an issue, because then they won’t think it was just that you felt sensitive. Like, sometimes it feels like you’re sensitive that you were sensitive. And so there. There sometimes is an opportunity to speak truth. You know that earlier verse when it said, you know, basically, when you’re offended, you’re going to go tell someone else.

0:46:53 – (Melissa Kruger): Well, when we’re the person who’s being told about the offense, there is an opportunity in that moment to just say, hey, you know, maybe that’s not what they meant, like, and try to diffuse the situation. I think there’s. There’s a way. But I.

0:47:10 – (Courtney Doctor): That’s good. But I think.

0:47:11 – (Melissa Kruger): I think when we’ve offended someone. Yeah, I’m with you. Like, we just need to be quick to repent. I mean, the Lord’s Prayer sets us up for this. Forgive us our debtors as we forgive our debts. No, forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. Golly, what’s my problem? Okay, I’m winning today.

0:47:30 – (Courtney Doctor): It’s like when I told Shelby one time, I said, the Lord came not to. Not to serve, but to be served. I totally flipped that verse on its head.

0:47:39 – (Melissa Kruger): Yes. So, yeah, but. But really, when you think about it, I think I’m constantly shocked by how much I need to ask for forgiveness and how much I need to forgive in the Christian life. And yet the Lord’s Prayer, which is to be kind of our model prayer, presupposes this. You know, it sets us up to realize, oh, yeah, we’re probably really gonna be offensive to people. We’re gonna sin, and we’re actually not just gonna be offensive. We’re gonna sin against one another.

0:48:08 – (Melissa Kruger): Like, we’re gonna make mistakes. And so we need to be quick repenters and just remember there’s no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Like, the reason we can repent quickly is it’s already all been covered. And so we just need to be quick to see, hey, maybe I did make a mistake here. Maybe I didn’t notice everything because there are sins of omission and commission. So maybe I did fail to see, you’re really hurting and I should apologize for that.

0:48:36 – (Melissa Kruger): You know, we are so quick to defend self rather than just be like, oh, yeah, I could have done that better. And it’s okay that we’re not perfect. And I think we. We want to self justify even though we have a God who’s already justified us. And so I think that, that, that, that helps us let go of. Of some of this and. And then really give forgiveness freely. And give it freely because we’ve been freely forgiven. And I am so often like that unmerciful servant who’s been forgiven this huge debt, and yet I’ve got this little debt against me and I wanna throttle the person, you know, and. And. And I see that when I read that passage, I’m like, oh, help me, Jesus, help me to remember what I’ve been forgiven. So I.

0:49:19 – (Melissa Kruger): Help me remember how offenses I’ve been to you so I will be offended less by others.

0:49:25 – (Courtney Doctor): Oh, that’s so good. And keep praying Psalm 139, like, see if there is an Offensive way.

0:49:31 – (Melissa Kruger): Yes. And.

0:49:32 – (Courtney Doctor): And, like, show it to me. Like, show me. Like, let’s just be women that keep. So that. So that we truly are less offensive. Okay. So sometimes our offenses are just at annoyances, and we all have little pet peeves that. So this is how we’re going to end. This is just a fun question to end on. But we all have these little annoyances that turn into pet peeves, and there is a connection there between, like, that’s what offends us. So I want to know.

0:50:00 – (Courtney Doctor): Melissa Krueger. I want to know an annoyance or a pet peeve that when you recognize it in yourself, you just laugh at yourself. Like, why am I like this? Because I have so many of those that I’m like, what is wrong with me?

0:50:13 – (Melissa Kruger): I don’t know that I laugh at myself yet. I might be feeling justified in it. Okay. When you’re driving along the road and, you know there’s like a road, a lane closure, and everybody’s nicely getting over.

0:50:25 – (Courtney Doctor): Yes.

0:50:26 – (Melissa Kruger): And then there’s always the one person who drives to the front of the line and cuts in front at the last minute. I’m deeply offended by him.

0:50:35 – (Courtney Doctor): I am, too. I am.

0:50:37 – (Melissa Kruger): I’m like, you are a bad person.

0:50:40 – (Courtney Doctor): Or if you’re getting off of an airplane and, you know, it’s like, there’s a rule here, and everybody knows it. Do not act like you do not know that you wait for the rose in front of you. Oh, I am. I mean, and I just sit there and fume. Like, whether I’m behind that person on the road or I’m behind that person on the airplane, I’m just like, do you not know the rules? Do you not know? And then I’m like, no, you do know the rules. And you just break even, prioritized self.

0:51:08 – (Courtney Doctor): Yes. And it irritates me.

0:51:12 – (Melissa Kruger): Do you have any others that are

0:51:14 – (Courtney Doctor): yours, or is it. Yeah, I. When somebody is like, I’ll clean the kitchen. Because right now I’ve told you, you know, we’ve got all these people living here, wonderful people. And when the kitchen, like, to me, the kitchen is not clean until the sink is also clean. So the garbage disposal has been run. The, you know, like, it’s wiped down. And so when I come in and yes, the dishes have been put away, but the sink still has, like, food in it, I’m like, what is wrong with you people?

0:51:43 – (Melissa Kruger): Like, yeah, there’s a moral failing there. There’s a. More. The cheese is now sticking harder to my sink because you didn’t wipe it out.

0:51:52 – (Courtney Doctor): Oh, my word. And then I see that in myself. And I do. I. I do laugh at myself because I am ridiculous in probably 98 of my life. Okay, friends, we hope that you have been encouraged by this episode of the Deep Dish from the Gospel Coalition. And yeah, if so, consider sharing it with others and use it as a platform for conversations. But leave us comments. We’d love to know the silly things that avenge you, but also how you are growing in your ability to absorb and overlook and cover the offenses of others.

0:52:27 – (Melissa Kruger): Yeah.

0:52:28 – (Courtney Doctor): See you next time.