The Impact of Influencers on the Church

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Speaker 1
This TGC 25 breakout experienced some technical difficulties throughout the recording process. You may notice a few audio and video dropouts throughout the session. The vast majority of the content is still intact, which we hope you enjoy.

Collin Hansen
Thank you for for coming to breakout round number two. The session we have here: the influential people in your church who aren’t actually in your church, the impact of social media on the local church. My name is Colin Hanson. I serve as the Gospel Coalition’s editor in chief, the vice president for content, and the executive director of the Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics. It’s just fun to be able. Most of my job is just sitting at home behind a laptop, so it’s fun to see everybody see everybody out here. We do have a sponsor we want to thank for this event as Harper Collins Christian Publishers. They are their mission is to inspire the world by meeting the needs of people with content that promotes biblical principles and honors Jesus Christ. That’s a great mission. So we’re grateful for HarperCollins Christian Publishers for sponsoring this event. I’m going to just kind of read the introduction. You guys basically know what you’ve signed up for, but just to set a little bit of the context before I introduce our panelists and get on with this topic. But church ministry has dramatically changed in the last 20 years with the rise of social media,

Laura Wifler
of it too, it’s kind of knowing your role. I mean, at Risen Motherhood, we even had a social media policy, and it was like, hey, this is how we’re going to engage online. This is the things that we’re going to share. This is the tone that we’re going to share them in. This is what even came down to like constitutes if we’re going to block someone or if someone’s going to be restricted, and so I think as a creator, especially keeping up with a lot of the big changes, and even if you’re using it just personally, really stepping back and thinking through, okay, who do I want to be online? Like, what does it look like to be like Christ? What does it look like? What does it really mean to open that welcome mat? And I think that that can give you a lot of freedom as someone who’s creating online, and then even as a consumer, as we see these platforms change and evolve, and it does feel really hard to keep up with it, thinking through, okay, how am I being really consistent in evaluating these platforms and considering, you know, not only what they’re doing to my mind, but like who again, who I want to be. So, am I muting? Am I restricting? Am I consistently going through and saying this person is unhelpful for me to follow in this season? There may be other seasons where that person is a great fit for you, and so I think when we engage on social media, instead of thinking of it as a tool, I’m sorry, as a toy, which is how we often engage. It’s entertainment. It’s fun. Maybe I’ll learn something. Maybe I’ll get my news. But overall, like I enjoy this, we also have to really think of it more as a tool and something that we are learning how to use. We’re growing in it. We’re taking continual education courses. You guys are doing great. You’re here, and we’re but we’re really applying ourselves to making sure that we’re being really thoughtful as we create and as we consume.

Collin Hansen
So part of what is unique about this session is we’re talking about the the role of social media, but also the relationship to the church. And I’m sure Ruth and Laura, you guys have had to think through this. A member of a church can have so much more influence in the aggregate than, say, the pastors of the church that you attend, as an example, do you do you talk with people about that, or ask for help, or coordinate? How do you each one of you just think through that?

Laura Wifler
Yeah, I mean, definitely, I’m very aware of that reality and how easy that that can be for even myself to fall into. That I’m really listening to other people that I follow even more than my pastor, and I think as a creator, something that we think about at Risen Motherhood, we had a board of directors. You know, who was Ruth served on that board and was vital and important to that of just helping. Hey, I know she’s watching my social media, she’s watching my podcast. So having people that are aware of the ministry that you’re doing, that you trust, it doesn’t have to be an official board of directors, but now that I’m sort of autonomous after the sunset of Risen Motherhood, my pastor and elders are very aware of what I’m doing, and I also have a real life community of just friends who I know will call me out if, like, hey, that was weird, or I when I have questions about, hey, is this theologically sound, or is this helpful, or is this insensitive? I have a group of friends that I know. Hey, I can send that post to them, and I would rather be overly cautious before I share something and make sure it’s vetted than just send something out on a whim to have something published. So, it’s certainly something that I’m aware of. Is like hey, how is this fitting in to me as a person, and is it is it matching up to who I am, my online and my public persona?

Collin Hansen
Ruth,

Ruth Chou Simons
well, I think you know the issue of discipleship. I mean, everyone’s being discipled. It’s it’s not even it’s not even if you’re being discipled by social media. Whatever you’re consuming is discipling you. And so, I think our responsibility as we think about putting out content, whether it’s in the form of a podcast or a YouTube video, or you’re writing a line on X, you know, whatever it is, ultimately you’re speaking words that can either edify or not. You know, you’re either pointing people to Jesus or you’re pointing people to something else, to yourself, or to anything else that will cause them to either choose to worship the one true God or choose to worship something else. And so I think that really humbles me and kind of convicts my heart to want to be very tethered to the authority of God’s word, really tethered to the authorities in my life, but also, as Laura said, to really seek to not do things in isolation. It’s not that wow, social media is my thing, and I’m just going to go off and I’m still part of the body of Christ, and I belong to a local church. I am under the authority of God’s word, and I need to make sure that everything I say and do is not just this thing that I’m building. It’s actually part of the body of Christ, and and I want you know I I’m encouraged, Kyle, that you know you are aware of you know people in your life, and you’re on a podcast with others who are serving in that way, so that you’re not isolated away from knowing, like for example, what the women in your congregation.

Collin Hansen
Yeah, talk about that a little bit more, Kyle. You’re you’re a pastor, and no doubt the men, women, youth. I mean, they’re influenced in your church by by social media, by YouTube, by podcasts. What sort of influence do you see that happening, and how do you try to encourage it in the best possible directions.

Kyle Worley
Yeah, well, I think what Laura was saying about seeing social media as not just a toy but a tool. You know, I think oftentimes we have this conversation about social media. We talk about it like we wouldn’t talk about anything else. Like if I asked you, is a chainsaw good or bad? You’d say, well, what are you going to use it for, right? If it’s to cut down a tree, then it’s a pretty good option. If it’s to cut a cake, you know maybe maybe less so, right? Better better better tools for cutting a cake. So I think oftentimes rather than just saying hey social media yes or no good or bad what are you there for what are you trying to do so I think encouraging among members and modeling among your leadership that you don’t want passive participation you want active Participation, thoughtful, reflective participation. When it comes to the social media channels that you’re on, why are you there, right? Like you know, I think that one of the things that’s helpful to ask of any social media channel is just why am I here? It’s like showing up at a party where maybe not everybody there is somebody you’d associate with. Why? Like why have you shown up here? What are you trying to accomplish in this space? I think is a really valuable conversation. I think when you ask about what is the predominant influence, because like to ask the question, is social media influencing the people in your church? Is is really you know, it’s kind of trivial because it’s so obvious that it’s yes. But how? I think one of the preeminent ways that we’ve seen it play out in the life of our local church, and I’m sure other local church leaders are seeing this as well. And if you haven’t, I assure you that you will. Is that it’s the detaching of authority from local proximate relationships, and this is what some I can see some of you nodding already because you’re living this in your small group or the church that you’re in, where somebody is going to come to you and it’s going to be clear that they’re invoking an authority that has incredible influence on their life, and they expect for you to feel the same degree of influence in your life, or to give it the same degree of credibility that they have. And I think that is really where it gets tricky, where people are trying to figure out kind of a selective submission to authority, and social media allows for that. I can have the authoritative voices in my life that I want to have, and when they say something I don’t want them to say, I can turn them off. That’s different from meaningful pastoral relationships in the life of a local church.

Collin Hansen
This is an open question. Everybody can jump in on this one up here. I asked this to students in a class that I was teaching at Beeson Divinity School earlier this earlier this year in cultural apologetics. They didn’t have an answer to it. I don’t have an answer to it, but I’m sure one of our panelists, at least here, will have an answer. Way to stack the debt, Colin. Yeah, exactly. I can’t figure out why Christians have such a default trust in podcasters as authorities in comparison to pastors. Like I’m just trying to understand the reflexive instinct that says this person over here on my podcast is definitely telling me the truth because I know that whatever my pastor is saying must be compromised for X, Y, Z reasons, like institutionally compromised, financially compromised. I just can’t crack this question. I’m trying to understand why people, and I think we can speak with some. Experience with this, podcasters are very financially influenced. I mean, like they can, they can be. I mean, they don’t have to be, but I’m just saying, plenty of people will be happy to lie to you on a podcast to make a lot of money. I’m not quite sure why that doesn’t register with people. Go ahead, Ruth. Well,

Ruth Chou Simons
I I have two thoughts. I think on both ends. One is that podcasters or any social media account isn’t requiring something of you. Yeah, you don’t have to. You can walk away. You can like turn it off halfway through and get on with your day. But if you belong to a local body and you’re a member of that church, there is a commitment there. There is a sacrifice. There is a choosing to be part of the body, and that is-it’s costly. So I think, for one thing, it’s not costly to pick and choose, like Kyle was saying, who you’re going to let in, and or just a

Collin Hansen
friendship is that way too.

Ruth Chou Simons
But then the other side of it is that I also think a lot of times, if you’re, let’s say, at a really large church, you could be almost looking at your pastor from a screen or from another the overflow room, or it’s from a distance, and you’re not hearing that person have coffee with you every day. I mean, you might be lucky enough to have coffee with your your leaders, and you should be, you know, with your small group leader or your pastor or your pastoral team. But I think something that happens with social media or with podcasting or anyone whose voice is in a in your ear or on your phone is that they’re sharing bits of their life. It feels like you have access and you feel an intimacy, right? And the major there is that you grow so you grow so trusting of that person because you feel like you do life with them, I regularly hear women say, “Ruth, I feel like I really know you. Like you’re in my head. Like you, you don’t know it yet, but we’re like best friends. And it’s it’s really sweet, and I love hearing that. And I and I’m glad that my writing feels personal and accessible like that. But ultimately, I’m not actually sharing my life with the people who read my book. That that ultimately, you, I I hope I’m the same person. I try to be the same exact person at home or when I’m online. But you’re not there when I’m fighting with my husband, right? You’re not there when I’m raising those six crazy boys, you know. And so, at the end of the day, it’s even though it’s imaginary. I mean, there’s a sense that you have utter access in that person who’s sharing their life on social media is transparent and real.

Laura Wifler
I think too, it’s just like calls to like. You know, you can feel like, well, this person has experienced a miscarriage, and so have I, and maybe your pastor hasn’t in their in their marriage had a miscarriage, and and so you feel like so deeply connected because it’s a shared story, and podcasters tend to just tell a lot of stories. I mean, that’s more of what it’s about, unless you’re listening to sermons on podcasts. But I do think like that’s an element where I see that, especially with women, where it’s that storytelling that’s like my heart sees their heart, and I finally feel seen. I have felt alone, and finally, someone is saying they’ve been through the same thing. And it is is unreasonable and impossible to ask our pastors to be all things for us. But I do think that’s why we’re seeing some of that, where I think we have to break through that barrier of women really saying, “I have to get my information here, but that podcaster does not know their actual life. You know, they don’t know their actual children, their actual husband, their actual community, and so a lot of these social media people are offering prescriptive advice to someone in their life, where that person lives in New York, and you know the listener is living in rural Iowa, and it just it doesn’t work, doesn’t match. But that’s where we have to continue to build up discernment and helping people see. Okay, I can pull this as helpful because it is a unique experience. This person has been through it, and they are providing some really helpful niche information for me. But I have to like put that in the broader category and context of the church that I’m in, and the place that I go to, and the place that I live. And I think that’s where we have to keep working with our discipleship.

Collin Hansen
Colin, anything other?

Kyle Worley
No, other than just social media is a great place for connection and a really bad place for belonging. And those are different things. You can connect online very easily. You can connect with a lot of other people. You just can’t belong there. And Sherry Turkle, MIT sociologist wrote a book years ago now, way ahead of its time, called Alone Together, and in that book she just talks about how we’re we’re more connected than ever and more fearful of intimacy and vulnerability than we’ve ever been, and she nails she nails it. I mean, I just think it’s really perceptive. But I would say one of the things that I often tell members in our congregation, ask somebody who’s creating, I mean, I’m creating resources for churches and people outside of my local congregation. We’ll talk more about that here in a minute. But one of the things I’ll tell our our folks when I can tell that they’re really getting super invested in what I would call a digital connection, and that’s that’s what’s happening here. Is. I’ll often say, “Hey, listen, your favorite influencer is not going to come visit you in the hospital. They’re they’re not going to be there, and it doesn’t mean that they’re not making stuff that’s really good for you. I believe that they could be. It doesn’t mean that you can’t profit from the work that they’re they’re writing. I hope that you will. I have, and if we can only profit from people that we know personally, then we’ll be our imagination will be impoverished. But if we only try to connect with people we don’t know personally, then our relationships will be impoverished. It’s it’s a balance. It’s a balance, and I think we’ve probably my stakes. I’m a little less rosy on social media and podcasting, but I think that a redemptive approach knows the difference between connection and belonging, and can disciple in that direction.

Collin Hansen
You gave away our conference titling of “Alive Together. Oh, I did. Well, just saying, alone together to alone together.

Kyle Worley
There we go. There

Collin Hansen
you go. So, I mean, that’s part of the challenge of the Gospel Coalition is that we, I mean, thankfully, we have this event which can be face to face, but a lot of people, of course, meet us online. Our staff don’t live together in places, but it’s one reason why we try to emphasize so much that if we’re doing our resources the way that we’re trying to, it’s sending you back into your churches where you can belong and into those relationships and friendships where there can be two-way exchange and there can be accountability and exhortation and encouragement and visiting you in the hospital, and things like that. Let’s continue, though, on the theme of just people who do this well on social media. Let’s talk about evangelism and discipleship, especially. But who are some folks? Because I think I think would get us in a lot more trouble to start talking about the people who do it poorly, so let’s let’s let’s say somebody coming exactly past. So let’s say somebody comes into your church, your church leader, whether you’re a women’s ministry leader, you’re a Bible study leader, a small group leader, you know, a pastor. Somebody comes to you and they’re bringing like pastor or you know friend. Have you heard of this person before? And you’re thinking, “Uh-oh, this isn’t good. What would be some people instead of this person try these people instead? They’ll send you in the right direction. Who’d be some people you’d commend?

Kyle Worley
Well, I mean, I’ve pointed people in our congregation to both resource, like both Risen Motherhood and both Ruth’s resources. So I’d be remiss to not point out both of them. Beyond that, I would say there’s a couple of standouts. I’ve really profited, and I direct a lot of our people to Amy Kate Gannett. She’s doing Tiny Theologians. If you’ve got young kiddos, or you’re working with families of young kiddos, and you’re thinking, okay, how do like I want to get into a space where I’m getting some really great resources that are aimed at kiddos. Tiny Theologians has done wonderful work, and I’m so grateful for Amy Kate’s work on that. And then on a pastoral leadership front, Luke Simmons and Seth Trout with King Culture Faithful and Fruitful Ministries. They’re based out of Arizona, and they’ve been doing fantastic work as well. And I think doing resourcing in a space that’s locally embedded, which I want to talk about at some point. Call. Well,

Collin Hansen
go for it now. Let’s just let’s take that direction. Well, because are you sure? Yeah, go for

Kyle Worley
it. Because I think this is key, and it was one of the questions, and I thought it was a really great question. This is something that that I know I’ve seen, and maybe y’all have as well. But I think when you think about building content, maybe some of you are in here, and you’re like, I want to write for a wider audience. My church wants to do digital resources. I’m I’m in a ministry that’s doing digital discipleship resources. I think the best resources that work well wide start off local. They they begin there. They’re built for a local audience. Oftentimes, that’s going to be a church audience or a specific place and a specific people. I I think the people that I would send you to most often are people that I know are local practitioners, and I’ll tell you, I think there is a qualitative difference in the temperament, the substance, the tone of those who are actually working this out locally and then panning out to distribute it widely, and the inverse. I don’t think it works well the opposite direction, and I think the difference between platform that’s kind of oh maybe self-aggrandizing and a real heart to make an impact in a broader space is: Are you willing to flesh this out locally? And so, if you’re if you’re looking to build content, please don’t minimize building out content for a church of 150 people, distributing it widely, and anybody who profits beyond that 150 people, they will profit more because you’re really narrowing it to people you know well. You know well. So,

Collin Hansen
well, the the chapter that I did in Scrawling Ourselves to Death on Preaching was ends in the place of saying you’re better off preaching, teaching, writing to a specific group of people, and then if the Lord blesses that more broadly, that’s that’s wonderful. But the alternative is that once you start thinking about everyone, it’s very hard to to to not just think about no one. Yeah, and that that weakens the teaching considerably, and it changes. The relationship quite a bit, and speaking as somebody who spent most of my career in in digital content creation sounds so, and whatever is it feels sometimes the imagery that comes to mind is it feels like hand cranking water from a river into an ocean. You know, like it’s it’s just there’s an ocean of content out there, and so thinking, thinking primarily about the people that you can see that you run into a lot with your content, and I’m sure that’s probably how all of our ministry started. I would guess in there.

Ruth Chou Simons
I think if you’re really plugged in and you are living that out, the content in your small group, or you know, in my case, I’m setting up chairs for like 50 people in my little church. You know, if if if you’re working that out locally, then if you get a really bad response to a post, or it doesn’t go viral, or the algorithm hates you, or people don’t download that one podcast, then it just doesn’t hurt. It doesn’t it doesn’t bother you that much because it’s that wasn’t your ultimate end goal. Because I think there are times when you are creating content that you’re thinking, okay, I’ve been entrusted with an audience, and that audience goes beyond the scope of my local church, but it’s where my heart posture is. Right, it’s me saying, okay, fundamentally, I know that I have impact beyond whether or not it reaches hundreds of 1000s of people. That’s not the only way to measure this.

Laura Wifler
And I think this kind of reminds me going back to your question of like, hey, who do we follow? There is this element with that that I’m always hesitant to give names because people change all the time. Not that that Amy will or any anybody will, but I think teaching people to understand, like what do we look for in the people that we follow, because there are so many wonderful people producing incredible content that have 800 followers, have 5,000 followers, but they’re doing great faithful work. And how do you spot those people? And a lot of times, those kind of micro niche influencers, I just have been amazed by the humility that they’re displaying. Maybe they’re not growing because they’re not using some of those tactics that allow someone to grow quickly. Where you see sometimes it’s almost like, hey, what am I not looking for? And then you can kind of identify what you are. So things like people have like a lot of quick hot takes. A lot of people are can be good at that. You can be blessed at that, and I’ve been served by that. But someone who has a hot take on every single thing, right, or doesn’t offer much nuance when they speak. It’s a really broad brush stroke, and they take a lot of hard stances, which can be very attractive, right? Like calls to like. So if they’re speaking your language, you you want to start following them, and then soon your opinions have maybe even changed a little bit, and you’re drinking the juice a little bit more. So, but just somebody who’s like consistently really firm or speaking about every single thing. No one’s an expert on everything, and so it can be, I think, a kind of a red flag if you see someone who’s like, oh, they just they address every single topic, and that doesn’t mean you have to unfollow them. But really filtering through those kind of responses. Those are the type of things that go viral. Those are quick hits. Those are people know that they work, and that’s probably what they’re doing. And so, just being aware of those things. I think someone who you know seems to be online all the time, you can you can start to say, okay, like they’re probably online all the time. Those are kind of red flags. I’m trying to think of what else. Speaking without nuance is a big one. Well,

Collin Hansen
that’s a really good direction to take it in because you are right. If you recommend somebody, that can that can change, which itself is part of the challenge that we’re discussing here. That the incentives do not necessarily push you toward godliness. They’ll often push you toward, you know, self-centeredness and criticism. This is a lot of people have talked about this, so it’s not particularly novel, but it’s still true today that the the way digital media work, it it’s it’s not fundamentally different from how media have always worked, but it’s supercharged that it’s driving you for financial reasons, built on psychological reasons, toward fear and toward loathing. Those are the easy to access emotions for people who are trying to keep you engaged, and that’s not unique. Newspapers used to do that. Cable news does that, talk radio does that, but it’s just supercharged when it comes to different social media. So, the basic rule of thumb I would have is that if you are spending a lot of time with a Christian influencer, content creator, what do you want to say, and you find yourself increasingly fearful and angry, essentially it’s not leading you toward the fruit of the spirit. If you’re spending a lot of time with somebody outside the church and you’re listening to them, you’re watching them, all that kind of stuff. If instead you walk away full of more faith in God and love toward others, including your enemies. And that’s probably a good sign, there, but you just got to be clear. Somebody in our council meeting referred to Bishop Zuckerberg. He’ll ordain anyone earlier today. I thought about that. Just the incentives are not to make people deepen in their faith and love, because that might make people actually go out there and want to do that with real people instead of doom scrolling forever. Let’s let’s just talk more from the from the person who’s using these accounts, not from somebody who’s producing them. But this would also go to people who, as a church leader, you might be advising others within your congregation. How would somebody know that it’s time to close down their social media accounts and and turn off the podcasts? My my wife was not a kind of an abuser of social media, but she saw some stuff recently and she just went ahead and deleted her Facebook account. I was like, I mean, I do kind of earn some of our living based on Facebook. So, so yeah, I was like, “What’s going on here, in there? So, but she was determined to do it. She went ahead and did it. So, how would you know? You’re just counseling somebody. It could be a friend, somebody in your church, and you’re like, “Hey, I think maybe it’s time to shut her down.

Kyle Worley
Is it? Is it encouraging you to behave foolishly? I mean, I mean, truthfully, like, do you find?

Collin Hansen
But things, but but things on. It’s amazing. I’ve seen a lot of people talk about this. Of if you did that thing you did on social media in real life, how foolish it would be, and yet somehow the deceptiveness of the medium makes you feel like it’s not foolish.

Kyle Worley
For sure, and I think it’s one of the reasons why. I think it’s one of the reasons why, when we have had to pastorally address members in our congregation that have been foolish online, they are absolutely stunned that we’re doing it, they’re shocked. I don’t know if any of you have encountered this, but they’re shocked, and they’re shocked because there is this pretense of this is this is private. You know, there’s this pretense of this is this is my space, and trying to communicate to them. No, no, no, you’re in a public space. It’s it’s a public space that maybe you accessed from the private space of your living room, but when you stepped out there online and you said this, you said this publicly, and I’m not encouraging a dogmatic disciplinary spirit on this. What I’m saying is that if if we as leaders, as we if we as brothers and sisters aren’t confident in a humble, curious, convictional approach to addressing what I think is public foolishness. Whenever foolishness is engaged in online public spaces on social media, then I don’t know that we can expect people to begin to re-alter or readjust their understanding of what it means to behave with wisdom on those spaces.

Collin Hansen
Imagery that came to mind when you’re talking about acting like foolishness. It’s like social media is often nothing more than a group of 17-year-old boys. What seems smart to those 17-year-old boys, it’s not. Don’t trust them telling you to do that. That’s not good. Ruth, how would you know if you’re you’re talking to somebody in that situation. How to counsel them?

Ruth Chou Simons
You know, I think where we’ve all said before that we’re idol factories. You know, we’re made to treasure the Lord, and and we’ll have counterfeits all the time. And so, it’s it’s whether I think it’s whether or not we can look at this thing that we’re using as a tool, can it cause me to desire more discipline? Desire more, even desire boundaries. Like if I’m desiring boundaries, desiring more discipline, and I’m using it in a measured way, it doesn’t mean that that’s a green light. But I think it is an opportunity to say, okay, I’m I’m working towards greater holiness, and this tool is part of what I’m using to do the things that God’s called me to do. But if I’m willing to set aside boundaries or discernment, if that explore page takes me down rabbit trails that lead me somewhere where I really shouldn’t be, if that thing is happening, if two hours go by and you’re looking at cat videos and you don’t know why you’re not making your kids dinner, then there’s a problem, right? And then you probably should shut down your podcast. You’re just kidding. I mean, you should probably shut things down if you’re literally not doing what the what the Lord’s given you to steward, and instead you’re treasuring your even if it’s not like this ugly thing, but it’s treasuring comfort, or treasuring laziness, or treasuring some sense of like I just want to numb myself out because I’ve had a hard day. You know, it used to be, oh, I just need Jesus in a glass of wine, but now it’s like Jesus in a million hours of doom scrolling, right? So, you know, I think those are good ways to say like, is am I. Willing to lay this down because I love Christ, or am I like no? Don’t pry it from my hands, you know, kind of thing.

Collin Hansen
Does anybody else get their screen time updates from their phone on Sundays? That’s not good. Oh man, I looked, I looked at mine on on Sunday, but it was way down, and I thought, huh, that might have been why I read three books last week. Like I was wondering why I wasn’t making much progress through these books. There’s too much, too much of that. Laura, what do you? How would you counsel somebody in that situation? How would they know when to shut down? By the way, Andy Crouch does have a kind of a rule of thumb of at least what is it? One hour a day, one day a week, one week out of the year, where you’re just off social media or things like, or your phone or something like that all the time. If you can do that, that’s kind of a good rule of thumb. But what else would you say? How would you know?

Laura Wifler
Yeah, as as Ruth was talking, I was literally thinking it is never a bad day to take a social media fast. And I think a lot of us feel like, well, if I leave the platforms, like I’m gone forever, and I just can’t ever do that. And so, just give yourself. I would recommend at least 30 day fast. Science proves it takes 30 days to break a habit. You got to detox. Like you will have withdrawal symptoms. Like it is a very real thing. Like social media is rewiring your brain. There’s a lot of stuff out there about it. So go Google it because we don’t have time to get into it today. But give it 3030 days and just see what happens, and see if hey, is this a place that I desire to return to? And if I’m going to do that, then hey, here’s some rules and some boundaries that I can put around it. Or maybe you’ll find like wow, I actually did experience a lot less anxiety and fear, and I slept better, and I had richer conversations. I read a million books. Yeah, so that would just be like a practical thing. But yeah, I mean, I do think a lot of it. For me, I often notice it in my off time away from the phone. So if I am more irritable with my kids, a lot of times that tracks back to maybe something that I read online that is causing fear or anxiety, something bad that happened. It’s amazing how long it took for me to realize that that was the case. Yeah, I don’t think it took my wife that long, but it took me a long time to realize, oh, that’s why I snapped at my kids because I just saw that thing on social media. Totally, yes. Or as a content creator, if you’re like, if your worth and identity is getting put in what you put out there, and no one’s responding, and now you’re bummed, and now you have a bad evening, right? Like, so looking at how are you feeling in that time away? Which is why I recommend that 30-day fast because I think it gives you ample opportunity to begin to evaluate. Oh, my mind is clearer. My attitude is more positive. It can be sometimes hard to know when you’re in the thick of it, but then when you start to lift that fog, you realize, oh, I’m actually kind of a different person without any of these platforms,

Kyle Worley
yeah. Can I just add to this for church leaders in particular? I think that’s really well said. I think I felt we planted seven years ago, and we were in an area, just an area of church life where the church culture. There’s just a lot of I felt like a lot of cross pressure that we needed to like really get in the game when it came to digital and social media ministry, and I’ve just felt like oh if we’re not doing this we’re not really doing what we’re supposed to be doing and maybe that’s kind of where you’re at too. I would just say, and this isn’t a forever decision we’ve made, but we just made a decision that’s just actually not a game that we’re going to be in, and you don’t have to be in that game. I just want to give you the liberation freedom. I think that if you really want to get into the digital ministry space for your church or your ministry, you should really ask the question of Lord, are you calling us to go here? I think we got to see it as a landscape where spiritual warfare is happening. It is real. I think rather than churches thinking how to stratop the whole thing, I think they should really ask the Lord, is this a space we need to be in? I don’t want to over spiritualize that. I mean, maybe that seems just too simplistic, but I think that I think that we do need to have an honest assessment. Is this really a part of what the Lord is calling our church or me to be in? Because it is a place that’s really fraught with spiritual difficulties, and I think churches and ministries and people need to enter in with a really sober-minded approach to this landscape because I think it’s charged with not just good things and good opportunities, but some some real struggles.

Collin Hansen
Well, let’s end with we just have three minutes here, so there’ll be shorter answers. But let’s just any Kyle, you really brought us into that last question of there will be some people here that the Lord maybe is calling more toward that broader, broader ministry. They’ve looked up to some of our panelists. Maybe that’s why you’re here. What quick word would you have for them in entering that space? Let’s start with you, Ruth.

Ruth Chou Simons
I would say, make your real life so treasured and so rich that everything you put out online is an overflow of the life you actually live.

Collin Hansen
That’s good, Kyle. Anything you want to add to what you just said? Root

Kyle Worley
yourself in a faithful church. Submit to godly elders.

Collin Hansen
Okay. Yeah.

Laura Wifler
God calls you to the work, not to the results. It’s not promised that you’ll grow, even if you are faithful, but just still do it.

Collin Hansen
Well, and with the way social media works, you can’t. Really game the system; it changes too often. It’s like playing the lottery; the odds are just not in your favor. But second, if you if you really do try to game the system, you’ll probably lose your soul. The process, and I don’t think that’s what we want here. So, well, I’m going to pray, and then we’ll thank our panelists. Okay, let’s pray. God, you’ve given us these technological tools made by human hands, so that we can use them for your glory. But Lord, we need your wisdom to be able to use them well, because we are, in our sinful ways, we’re prone to not, as consumers and producers, to not use them well. So help, Lord, help us glorify you in our bodies, in whatever we turn our attention to. Lord, help our churches amid the spiritual attack that we just talked about here, the attack that is so evident in so many different ways as we look around. Lord Jesus, help us to be found faithful and to be wise as we engage these these different media. We need your help, Lord. We know that by your Spirit, that help is promised and assured to us. In Jesus’ name, we pray. Amen. Thanks, guys.