Better Together: Men and Women in the Church

Vanessa Hawkins
Good afternoon. Welcome to Better Together. I’m Vanessa Hawkins, and we’re here to talk about men and women working together to do the work of ministry. And I think many of us would agree that we are better together. We better and more fully represent the image of God when we work together in ministry as men and women. I think, however, it’s sometimes a little bit more difficult to figure out how that looks in our particular context, and so we’re hoping today that we can help move us towards that ideal. So to talk about that, we have with us Michael Keller, who is the pastor of Redeemer Lincoln Square in New York City. Welcome, Michael.

Michael Keller
Hello, hello.

Vanessa Hawkins
We have Jen Wilkin, who is Bible teacher, author. It’s who I. It’s my go-to for Bible literacy, Jen. Welcome, welcome, Jen Wilkin. Welcome.

Jen Wilkin
Thank you.

Vanessa Hawkins
It’s hard to say. It is harder than one mind. Welcome. And then we have J.T. English, who is also author, pastor, just all-around good guy. Glad you’re here. Love, love, love his book on discipleship, deep discipleship. So welcome. We have people here who who live this out in their regular context, and so hopefully they can help us think about how to do this in our own particular context. So to get started, let’s talk about why is there then a need for this discussion? And talk to us a little bit about the biblical implications of that.

J. T. English
I came to this conversation a little bit. I, you know, one of the things that one of my favorite theologians, Augustine, says he talks about how all theology and ministry is ultimately autobiography, and what he means by that is our cares about what the Bible says are also shaped and formed by the stories that we have, and one of the things that I’ve talked a lot about with this crew and Jen in particular over the years is I came to faith in college. I didn’t grow up knowing the Lord. I didn’t grow up in the church. I didn’t understand even that there would be a gender dynamic or a power and authority dynamic in the church because I didn’t go to church. I just didn’t understand. And when I came to Faith, my my mom she was the vice president for the Colorado Rockies baseball team, which I thought was like the best job ever. She’s a better job than I have to be, except for the Rockies, the worst team in baseball right now. I don’t want to talk about it, but you know she was a kind of a high powered, highly competent leader in her field. And then when I came to faith, and I started getting involved in the church. One of the questions that kind of peeked into my mind is, “Well, because she wasn’t a believer either. She is a believer now. She serves in our local church, and the Lord’s done a great work in her life. But one of the things that really, kind of, in terms of my story, made me want to care about this conversation was thinking about what would it be like if God saved her and invited her into the life of the local church. How could she use her gifts, her skill sets? How would she be welcoming just as a sister? And how then could she potentially minister and lead in the life of a local church? And so, also being married to my wife, who’s she serves outside the church, and Jen knows Macy well. She’s just one of the best people on the planet. And so, I’m highly invested in thinking about how do how do the women in my life feel loved, called, equipped to use their gifts in the life of the church.

Jen Wilkin
And I, I met JT. How long have we known each other? Maybe 12 years now, something like that. Yeah, I met JT after many years of serving in in the local church in in various roles. Most of them volunteer, some of them part time, and that was by choice often because I was looking to keep my life as flexible as possible, but I grew up with four brothers who liked me and thought I had interesting things to say and valued my opinion. And I had a father who loved me and valued what I had to say and thought I had interesting opinions. And then I married a guy named Jeff who loved me and valued me and thought I had interesting opinions. And then I got out of college and took my first job in the workplace, and I met with a lot of positive feedback on my ability to lead and to and to manage my area of the company. And it was not until I started serving in the local church that I met with a different vibe, and I just remember still the shock of that. And I do like to say, anytime we start to have this conversation, there are no villains in my story. There was nobody who woke up in the morning and thought, “How can we make it hard for a woman to serve in the local church? I have served with a lot of really good men through the years. When JT and I, when our paths crossed about 12 years ago, we found that there was just a lot of room for partnership around things that we both cared a lot about about Christian education in the local church. I knew that I cared about Bible literacy. He knew that he cared about theological literacy. We tolerated each other on the. I’m like whatever you go do your thing, and over time we began to see that not only was partnership desire that not only was it desirable it was like enjoyable and good and and and then to develop convictions around wait a minute maybe maybe we’ve really missed something when we’ve said that that this can’t possibly work and shouldn’t work.

J. T. English
That’s right.

Michael Keller
Yeah, just my contribution for as far as why we’re having this conversation. Why do we need this conversation? Is I, I think you know when you go to Genesis two and it says let’s make you know humankind in my image, let’s make mankind in my image. We are made in God’s image. God is three persons, and so you have there. God is one. God is three persons. You have unity and diversity, and I think one of the problems we have is how do you actually do unity and diversity together? And I think there’s this there’s this idea of no, we’re equal, male and female we’re equal, that doesn’t just because we’re equal doesn’t mean we’re the same, and and I think we struggle with that. There’s a there’s a historical American context to that, because when you use that phrase, equal, you know, we’re equal but different. There tends to be power dynamics that are that are laden in that. So I think we struggle with how do we say there’s equality, there’s there’s full equalness, and that’s. But then also, we don’t have to be the same. We can actually be different. There’s a beauty in that. There’s a, and I think we struggle. So I think we need to have this conversation because we don’t know how to actually hold those two things together, to be able to say, hey, it’s okay that we’re we’re not actually the same. That we have different functions and different roles and different things that we’re good and bad at, but we’re actually equal and we need each other, and we’re accidentally the best when we actually come together. I, I think we don’t know how to do that. We don’t have to do that not just in the church. We don’t have to do that in home. We don’t know how to do that anywhere. I’ve seen it, so I think that’s why we’re having the conversation.

Vanessa Hawkins
That’s such a beautiful theological view, Michael, of our interdependence and our need for one another. Do you know, and and why that eludes us, and why we struggle to create that. Do you think that this type of interdependence, this type of working together, is it possible to achieve that in in every context?

Michael Keller
You’re asking me. You’re asking all this.

Vanessa Hawkins
I’m asking you all. Yeah. Again,

Michael Keller
I think it comes down. I think power is the problem. I think we don’t know how to handle either unspoken power dynamics or spoken ones and whatnot, and I think when you get to power and those differentiations, that’s where the issues come. I think there’s historical context to this. I think there is a biological context. I think there’s emotional. There’s all these different aspects of it that make it more difficult. But I’d love to hear what everybody else has to say as well. Yeah,

Jen Wilkin
I don’t know. I’m still trying to figure out some of it, but one of the things that’s been interesting to me is how often I have been told now it’s by friendly people on the internet that I want something that I just don’t want. Like there have been times where I’ve wanted to say, guys, if I wanted to be a pastor, I would be like I would be. I would have joined a tradition where I would have done that. Like you’re not stopping me by yelling at me. And what I want to be is I want to be a sister in the church, and I want to be a mother in the church. And I think if the church is the family of God, then we don’t want the family of God to be motherless. And a mother is not a father, and a sister is not a brother. And I think you know there. I think sure power is a part of it, but I think also there is an atmosphere of so much fear around this conversation because everybody’s read the headlines about pastors who have fallen, you know, who’ve gotten into an inappropriate relationship. I’ve read those, and I think that that can put us into defense mode all the time. It’s like you know what the most important thing we can do is prevent that ever happening, and we only perceive fear on one side of the equation, and we don’t have a healthy and good fear for what happens if we don’t have partnerships at all, because we were so afraid that this would happen. I actually think there’s something here in the middle, where we have a good and reverent respect for what could happen, and we also have a good and reverent desire to see what should happen, and and if the church is the family of God, then I think like think about your family of origin. Well, maybe your family of origin was terrible. Think about what you wish that family had been like if it was terrible. Think about the happiest interactions you’ve had with a sibling or with a parent. That’s the church is supposed to be better than that. And yet, what we often have is the men are over here and the women are over here, and nary the twain shall meet. And I think it’s robbing us of something.

J. T. English
Yeah, I think that’s right. And even the title of the session, you know, can can ministering in the church as men and women. It’s it’s a great way to talk about it. But even to phrase it the way you just did is is would be phrasing it as as brothers and sisters. Right, the primary way that we tend to see each other is in a hypersexualized world, is in sexualized roles, and I think one of the things that the gospel invites us into isn’t just to see each other in sexualized roles or gendered roles, though those matter. I’m not saying those don’t exist. I’m saying for one of our primary lenses is to be the biblical lens of family, is to see each other primarily as brothers and sisters. I told you at the beginning of this one of the reasons I’m invested in this conversation certainly is because I think the Bible teaches this. I think this is the biblical vision of of how it looks for men and women, brothers and sisters, to thrive together in the life of the church. But in addition to that, like I said, I’m invested in this because of my own personal story. I shared with you a moment ago, that you know, I grew up in a loving family. Though my parents got divorced, single mom, Major League Baseball-that was the boys’ club. Imagine working in a boys’ club in the 90s. I mean, it was when baseball was kind of the steroid era. It was very hard for her to kind of make her way into that space and be a leader. But in addition to that, I grew up as an only child, and there was everyone who knows me is like, oh, now you get it. Yeah,

Jen Wilkin
it’s to do jump scares.

J. T. English
Lots of jump scares. If you’re my friend, if you’re my friend, though,

Jen Wilkin
I’m like, that’s because you didn’t have a sibling to beat that out of you. That’s exactly right.

J. T. English
So I’m depending upon you to do it, and that’s the that’s the relationship we’ve developed. But but in all seriousness, we we joke about it. Is the Lord saved me not just to himself, but into a family, both invisible, a universal church, but also a visible one. And so, when Jen and I met each other, and it wasn’t just Jen, we have brothers and sisters that we do ministry with. But the relationship that she and I have developed is she quite literally. I think of Jen Wilkin as my sister, and the kind of relationship we have is a familial type relationship that the Lord’s built between us, and we kind of are asking the question, you know, can it happen? I would love to offer it must. Like this isn’t, and it’s not like a begrudging necessity; it’s a joyful necessity that we get to be each other’s brothers and sisters. And one of the things that, like you know, Jen and I have had this conversation several times of like, how many theology conversations do you think you and I have had, Jen? I mean, 1000s.

Jen Wilkin
1000s.

J. T. English
And we’ve probably talked about this one a dozen times, because Jen and I share something far more in common, and it’s Bible literacy and theological formation and Christian education in the church and leading people. I mean, it’s just so one of the things that we’ve had the opportunity to develop, and I now develop with other men and women on my staff is just a familial, jovial relationship that wants to keep Jesus at the center, that does ministry together, that keeps our sameness in mind, our distinctions in mind, that really treats this like a family. Like I think of Jen as my sister, and for me that isn’t just a so. Therefore, how do you guys work together in the church? It’s she’s my friend. She’s my colleague.

Michael Keller
Okay. Well, listen. That’s all kumbaya and great.

J. T. English
But so it’s great. Me and

Michael Keller
Vanessa actually are in New York now. So as a New Yorker, I forget anything to say this. When it comes to like fear, Jen, I want to key in what you said. You said there’s fear. Is it the men that are afraid? Is it the women that are afraid? I just want to just get a little more clarity on that.

Vanessa Hawkins
Yes.

Jen Wilkin
I mean I think it can be both depending on the environment. But you’ve got I think you’ve got men who are not afraid they will accidentally have an affair. You’re like I’m going to have a meeting alone with a woman and we’re going to have an affair. No, I don’t think anybody’s thinking that. I think what they’re thinking is I can’t risk even the appearance of impropriety, and therefore which and I’m not saying there’s nothing to that, but sometimes we’ve given so much freight to that idea that it is sabotaging healthy relationship because what it does is it assigns a risk category to male female relationships that it doesn’t assign to any. It’s a special category of risk.

Michael Keller
That’s right.

Jen Wilkin
And and one of the things that I think has helped me to think differently about this is to realize that every relationship bears risk. Every single relationship. If Vanessa and I went to coffee and Vanessa was weird or manipulative, I would back away. I would not move toward. But if Vanessa and I go to coffee and she’s delightful, which would be the case, P.S. then I’m going to move toward because we’re always testing the next trust boundary in any relationship. Can this relationship bear more trust or less trust. Every relationship is that way, and so it doesn’t mean that there’s nothing to be said about a particular dynamic between men and women. But when we begin to realize that there’s no such thing as a risk-free relationship, then when I meet J.T. the exact same process plays out. I step forward and trust. If he’s weird, what do I do? I step back. If he’s not weird, then I say this relationship can bear more trust. Friendships, when we acknowledge that they can happen between men and women, and then when we realize that it’s actually good to have those because it. Means we can’t objectify one another anymore because we understand that there are things that we share that are as important as the things that divide us or that make us distinct from each other. Then the family of God grows in health because we have trust not just woman among women or men among men, but across those lines as well.

Vanessa Hawkins
I love that. I love that. That’s that’s so insightful and so helpful. It’s not just men when women relationships. We’re talking about there are some there are some qualities to relationships in general that are helpful to think about, and that this isn’t just some major special category. It’s how we think about relationships. So let me ask this: You know, Michael and JT, you guys are both pastors, which means that you do a lot of the setting the tone for the culture of your church and how of the church where you get to serve. Let me say it that way: it’s Christ Church. So you set the tone. You set a lot of the tone, and a lot of the culture is based on the tone that you set. How do you intentionally create the type of spaces where we think about church’s family? How how are you doing that, or are there ways to do that intentionally?

J. T. English
They both looked at me, so I’ll jump in. Yeah, I think I mean, so I have the honor of pastoring a church in outside of Denver, Colorado. It’s called Storyline Church, and Storyline would be aligned with the Gospel Coalition in virtually every way. We’re a broadly reformed evangelical. We happen to be Baptist church, and we’re complementarian and card carrying. I’ve got the you know the

Jen Wilkin
coffee mug to prove

J. T. English
it, which means that our church-that means that only qualified males serve in the office of elder. Women won’t preach in life of our church. They won’t serve as elders in the life of their church. However, and I don’t mean however as a means to say therefore we’re not. However, I want to find ways to value the contribution of all people in the life of our church, not just the elders, but both men and women who are serving in life of the church, and so here’s just maybe a few practical tips that I think can help set the culture. I’ll give three. We preach about our understanding of of what it means to be an image bearer. I was on a podcast earlier today and was asked the question, “What’s going to be one of the most important issues that evangelicals are addressing in the next generation? And I believe it’s the doctrine of anthropology, whether we’re talking about racial conversations, gender conversation, conversations around sexuality, artificial intelligence, I think one of the great opportunities that we have is to give people a biblical vision of what it means to be human. And so, pastors, I would encourage you to preach about anthropology, develop a biblical anthropology in the life of your people, but also just getting real practical in terms of what it means to be on staff at Storyline. And by the way, none of us up here have this completely figured out in terms of mailed. I was even walking this way with a staff member of mine. I was like, “We’re doing this okay, right? You know, because we all have areas to grow and develop and learn. But I would say two things in particular that I would encourage men and women in this room to to consider. And the first is find a culture of celebration and celebrating the gifts of the men and women in the life of your of your church. And so, something that we just try to do regularly at Storyline is celebrate the contributions of all of our staff members, not just the contributions of our elders or my contributions to teaching. I’m on a Slack thread right now. We had six services for Easter over the last couple days, and it is every single staff member getting on there saying, “You guys did such a great job with the kids, volunteers, and the hospitality team was great. And man, you guys just crushed it with sharing the gospel with that couple that was brand new. And so, celebrating ministry contributions across ministry lines, I think, is a great way to to begin developing a healthy complementarian culture where we’re not only valuing the preaching of God’s word from the pulpit, but we’re valuing the ministry contribution of everybody. That’s not just staff members, by the way. That’s leaders and volunteers and and ministry contributors. And I also just think one of the things that I think Jen hates that I use this phrase. So tell me if you do. I will. But a phrase that I love is the best idea wins, and I mean that. See, she hates it. I just love being in meetings and rooms and environments where I know that there’s power dynamics and authority and there’s there’s challenges to that, but I also just love engaging in ideas. So it’s very often that we’ll be sitting in a staff meeting and you know Jess, our kids leader, will be like, Jess, what do you think about this? And Lindsay, what do you think about that? Hey Grant, what do you think about this? And so I just think one of the ways that you can develop a healthy-I mean, we’re really going back to this family dynamic a lot. This is what you would do in a family. If you’re the father or the mother of a family, you’re celebrating the contribution of your kids. You’re inviting them to input into the healthy into the healthy culture of your family, and so find ways to celebrate the contributions of all of your team members, and find ways to ask them to contribute, like find ways for them to meaningfully give healthy ministry inputs into the life of your church.

Michael Keller
Yeah, I’ll just add just two quick things then to that as well. One is, I really I know Ephesians five talking about submission and there’s there’s you know men and women submitting to each other. I know that’s in the in the marriage context, but I think there’s actually still. A lot of paradigms that you can map on inside the church, and that is, if we’re I’m going back to this again. Sorry for Genesis two. If we’re equal but different, then I think there’s something along as far as submission. We’re submitting to each other, just submit to one another. But the way we submit is actually in different ways, and so I think it’s important just to to name and say, particularly in churches that are complementarian, there is a trust and a submission that that this gets back to your to the the trust stuff of like how to how to trust each other. There’s a trust that women are bestowing, saying, “Hey, I’m trusting you as leader to to go with this church. But then there’s also a mutual trust of saying, coming alongside and said, “I want your, I want to hear your voice. We need to put you in situations and spaces where we can actually not be blind to 50% of our congregation or more because of just pure percentages. So I think there’s a level of how do we actually do mutual submission to each other that are that’s going to look differently, but then that’s based in this mutual trust, and and that leads to the second thing, which is really just basic basic one-on-one relationship dynamics. That if you’re going to be able to handle trust, because part of trust problems is there’s things you said don’t be weird if they end up being weird. We’re going to be weird. We’re going to be weird with each other. All of you are going to be weird at some point because just we hang out with with each with each other long enough, and there’s going to be hurt lives and brokenness, and I’m going to say things the wrong way. Vanessa and I are on the same staff together, so there’s a lot of trust that has to happen. Saying, “I’m sorry, I messed that up. Can we let’s try this again and come back and do it again? Part of this having enough emotional wealth of I feel loved and taken care of that I don’t have to get back from you what you took when you messed up in that moment, but then there’s also this ability to be able to be humble enough that maybe when that person messed up, I wouldn’t have messed up like they messed up, but I mess up, and so I create the space of well, it’s okay, we’re all in this together, and then come back and do it all over again. I think the the hard happens is like you get one shot and you’re out versus the I like the familial relational aspect of of of we’re in this together.

Jen Wilkin
Well, I think something you’re hitting on, which I know is something that JT extended to me, was when he says we’re friends, that means we actually know each other.

Michael Keller
Right.

Jen Wilkin
And trust. Think about right now. Get in your head who is the person that you trust the most. Like who is that person? Get that in your head now. How well do you know that person? My guess is you know them really well. The reason you trust them is because you’ve had a lot of time or a lot of opportunity to know them. You could probably tell me when their birthday is. You could probably tell me things about their family members, right? Maybe it is one of your family members, and so to kind of paint a picture of why this can be so hard in the local church, if it is forbidden for me to be known by the men on staff or in the congregation, then guess what? I will never be trusted. I will never be trusted, and the and that actually makes a ton of sense. You shouldn’t trust someone completely that you don’t know very well. But what we started to see was when we began to embrace a family dynamic in our church staff was that it wasn’t just okay. I’m going to trust you. It was no, I need to know you. I need to actually know you. That that was honestly the first act of trust was was just to just to know each other and in many situations women are just not known and so when it comes time for decisions to be made of course you’re going to give more credence to the opinion of someone who you know and trust than someone that you don’t know at all, so that’s why I think this can get. There’s a level of vulnerability

Michael Keller
that takes to to put yourself in the positions because if you’re going to be vulnerable, that means you can be hurt, which means that you can be misunderstood. Which goes back to your original point, which is a lot of times to protect ourselves, we don’t put ourselves in those positions where we can actually be hurt because what if she says you know thinks I did something the wrong way. What if he takes my actions in the wrong way? And I think that’s where we’re stuck because to be known, you have to have vulnerability. To have vulnerability, you have to have trust. And how do you earn that? And how do you get that? I don’t know the right answer, but I think that that’s you put your finger right on it, Jen. I think that’s it.

Vanessa Hawkins
That’s so good. With regard to creating culture as pastors, you guys are leaders, and so you have the opportunity to kind of set some of that direction that we’re talking about with regard to creating familial spaces. But Jen, as women in the church, and maybe as non-pastors, maybe there’s no formal power, so there’s a different dynamic there. So, how does it look for someone who is a woman or a non-pastor to try to help set culture or to affect culture in a way that creates that familial aspect?

Jen Wilkin
Well, anytime the word power gets introduced into the conversation, I get a little twitchy because there. Is a there is a narrative running through some of this that that’s really what women want in this conversation is we want power and you know it’s usurpation that’s what we’re here to do anyone who any any woman who perceives that her role in the priesthood of all believers might involve working at a church or doing something you know on a church staff, there can be a low-level suspicion that this is just about power brokering. Again, families aren’t power brokering with one another. Families desire relationship with each other. It doesn’t mean that there aren’t different roles within the family that have power implications to them, but it means that the first foot that you step forward on is to love your neighbor as you love yourself, and that’s a very different way of thinking about things. And I do think that for women who who perceive that their ability to take their place in the priesthood of all believers in ways that are completely appropriate to our theological convictions. It will take a little bit of courage. You will need to you will need to extend trust to someone before it might be extended to you. You’ll have to be willing to meet with rejection or to be misunderstood, and it can be costly. It can be very costly. I have a long, sad list of stories from women who just tried to show up, and were perceived to either want to take power, or take a man’s good name, or just become a burden on resources. And so, it is an act of courage to keep putting yourself out there, and I think that in order to be, I have always laughed a little. Jeff, my husband, is here today; he loves when I call him out when I’m doing stuff like this. He’s got that look on his face right now, but I’ve often reflected that I have a really easy marriage to Jeff because the Lord knew that my marriage to the local church was going to be a real rodeo, so I do think that if you are a woman who finds herself with a lot of relational health in other spaces, you will have more shock absorbers to face whatever might come your way as you attempt to serve in the local church in the ways that the Lord has wired you to. So that would be a caveat that I would have is if you’ve got if you’ve got deep wells of support, you’re in a much better position to say, “Hey, I have I have something to offer here. Would you consider giving me an opportunity?

Vanessa Hawkins
That’s really helpful, Jen. You’ve named a bit of the the fear. I’ve I’ve heard that thrown around here a bit, what are some common fears, common misconceptions? Do you think that kind of attends this conversation on men and women ministering together, and and and how can we address that? What are some practical ways that we can address those fears and allay those fears?

Jen Wilkin
I mean, I touched on a couple of them already. You know that she’s here to she’s here to take power or to try to sleep with me, and there’s been kind of a joke among some of the women when we talk about this of like where there’s some days you just want to go look, dude, you’re not hot, okay?

Vanessa Hawkins
No, you’re not dead. No, just

Jen Wilkin
let me do my job. I just have a thing I want to do. I’m sorry that apparently everyone’s so into you. I am not. I’m being ridiculous at this point. Where were we? Okay, but I think you know. I think one of I think one of the problems, frankly, that complementarians have with this conversation is we have we have reduced what happens in Genesis chapter three to a fracturing of the marriage relationship or a fracturing of male-female relationships, and that full stop. That’s what that story is telling us. And I tend to think if that were all we could take from that story, that the next story of conflict you would hear would be of conflict between a man and a woman. But it’s not. The very next sin that we see against a neighbor is a brother against a brother, and so I I think what we see in Genesis chapter three is nothing less than a complete demolition of the one another’s. It means that brothers and sisters who were meant to love one another will now not be able to love one another anymore, and when we strive to ask the question of what was it like in Eden, what will it be like in the New Jerusalem, how do we live toward that now? It changes the way that we interact with one another, and we see the the sadness of Genesis three as something bigger, and we see the challenge of living together as family as something even more beautiful. We’ve talked about this a lot. JT, another one of JT’s favorite sayings is, “He who tells the best story wins. We have a beautiful story to tell. And I think we leave it untold because we are afraid, and we’re only afraid of one thing. And so my prayer would be that we would learn to to walk in the beautiful story that I think the church is meant to demonstrate. If the church can’t chart a path on friendship, what hope does the culture have that is now in a place of saying that any strong emotion for another person, whether the same sex or the opposite sex, is romantic or sexual? We’re who’s supposed to give a better vision than that? It’s on us. The culture is not going to solve that one, and so that’s why I pray that we will not be led by fear, but by a spirit of love.

Vanessa Hawkins
That’s so good. Talk to me, all of you, about what are good and right boundaries. If we are talking about family, families. I mean, there are good and right boundaries in families. So, what are good and right boundaries in God’s family? Are there are there boundaries that you’ve had for male-female relationships that you found helpful?

Michael Keller
Don’t be a jerk.

Vanessa Hawkins
Don’t be a jerk. Yeah, okay, that’s a great boundary. Talk to me a little bit more about that. Fletch that out. Well,

Michael Keller
I think I think we passed over this so quickly. The very first thing we talked about was fear, and I think there’s a lot of space to go into, like, what are we really, really, really afraid of? And part of the reason why there’s a lot of fear is because there’s a lot of stories that that that have made us afraid because things have really happened. There has been abuse. There has been moral failing. There has been people have been taken advantage of. There has been people who have been seduced, men and women seduced, and so that’s why there’s so much fear. So how do you how do you actually, you know, what are the guidelines and rule rules for that? I think it’s hard because we’re in this space of fear all the time. That we we try to put out these barriers of things. Listen, I don’t. I can’t believe I’m saying this. I, my wife and I, I talked to her, and I was like, “Listen, a lot of people they can have moral failure in their jobs, and they can keep going on. If you’re a banker, if you’re whatever, I can’t do that. So you’re good. Don’t worry. Our marriage is gonna be fine. And she’s just like, “That doesn’t. That didn’t stop a lot of other people, and so there’s this there’s a valid question of kind of like how do we actually make sure that you know I think part of it is transparency, part of it is actually open honesty. I think there’s been times when I’m I’m on a lot of group chats with with people on my staff, men and women, to make sure that there’s there’s that. But I think it’s it’s it’s different. I’ll never hear what everybody else has to say.

J. T. English
Yeah, I mean, this is I think this is the question, and it’s why this conversation is hard because I don’t know that anybody has that. If you do this, then you don’t have to be afraid anymore. Right. Yeah. Or if you do this, we’ll fix the problem or whatever it might be. And I think one of the obvious things that we might be talking about a little bit. Elephant in the room is like the Billy Graham rule. Is that a wise thing to do? Is the Billy Graham rule and having a system set up in the life of your church and in your staff to, you know, not either either mandate or have some kind of regulation? And let me just say, we might even have different perspectives on this panel. It might be wise for you to have that if that’s something that is your personal struggle and is something that you would say you’ve talked to your spouse or to your team, you’d say this is a this is a system that I’m going to put in place as a matter of wisdom for me in an area of my life. Then, man, I I I wouldn’t say any reason why you shouldn’t do that. However, I would also say anytime you put a system like that in place, I would give two caveats. The first is systems never actually stop sin.

Vanessa Hawkins
Right.

J. T. English
This is more than a system issue. This is a heart issue, and more than just putting a system in place, I would really encourage you. You need to get into the to the internal matters, the guttural matters of your soul and your heart, and begin working on that. Not just putting a system in place. And the second thing I would say is, any system you put in place comes with costs. And so, if you if that’s a decision that you make, you’re not going to meet with a person of the opposite sex alone. I would just say, actually, I’m going to give two more caveats. One of those caveats would be is that doesn’t prevent all sexual sin, especially as we live in a day when we’re increasingly aware of sexual sin potentially with the same gender. I’ve been a part of of situations where the Billy Graham rule was in place, but that did not stop sexual sin. And so again, I’m saying it doesn’t it doesn’t completely stop sin. It also you need to remember, and I’m not just talking about the Billy Graham rule. And again, that’s something you might need to do for yourself. Might be something that’s good for your team, but be aware of the cost. That’s the third caveat. Is anytime you do something like that, there will be people on your team that if you’re unaware of the cost that they’re paying because of that system, they’re going to undergo undue challenges or harm in the life of your organization that somebody else might not. So, just for example, if you end up hanging out with all the guys and you guys go out, you know, to have a meal after after you know a Sunday gathering or. Something like that, and you don’t invite the sisters on your team because of some kind of a fear around that. You’re putting challenges around them to develop professionally, to grow, to receive feedback in their role potentially. So, and you’re

Michael Keller
missing out on on what they have to offer too. A lot of times, there’s actually situations where you find yourself in a one-on-one situation, and if you kind of have a hard and fast rule there, and I get the wisdom of it, but I think you actually end up if we each have something to offer that the other person needs, and I’m then I professionally we’re talking about just inside the church. I’m missing out on the the wisdom that I might be having in that in that moment where we we happen to be in an office alone because we’re talking about a pastoral like some sort of you know care issue or some sort of need, or some sort of direction that we need to go in when it comes to various ministerial issues. So I, I love that you. I’m glad you brought up the cost because I think it can be a very high cost. I think

J. T. English
the point you’re making is it’s not just a cost to the person you’re putting up the system against; it’s a cost to you. Right. You don’t. I’m missing out

Michael Keller
on something that I wish that I wouldn’t have seen unless that person, unless the women on my on our team would tell us because we’re blinded now to it because we missed out.

J. T. English
That’s right.

Jen Wilkin
Well, I do think. I mean, I don’t know if you remember. I think I was on this panel with you years ago, and a and a very well-intended guy sitting on the front row asked me. He said, “Well, I don’t understand. Like, how am I supposed to do this? Like, I know how to like mentor a guy at my church. I know what to do, but how would I like? How would I provide mentorship like to a woman if she came to me and was looking to learn like how to study the Bible or something like that? And I honestly sat there thinking, what on earth are you doing when you mentor this man? Like, are you guys like having slumber parties, like what? And I think that we can overlook. I think because there is such a pervasive culture of fear around this, in many cases we have lost any imagination around the myriad ways that men and women can interact with no whiff of impropriety, because we’re just so scared, and I mean, they’re honestly they’re like you know the Slack channel is one, or you know we realized at the church that we served together that because we were good complimentarians, it meant that the men were all like, ladies, please go through the food line first when we’d have our big staff meeting, which meant guess what? When we sat down at tables, all the women sat together and all the men sat together. And so, one of the first things that we did to shift the culture was we said, “We’re not doing that anymore. We’re all going to go through the line. You know, however we got up and got in line, we appreciate the thought, guys. You know, but then we’re all going to make it a point to sit at a table together and share this meal because, again, you know, it was a frustration point for some of the women. Like it’s like these the men go on hiking trips together, and they go they never did a

J. T. English
hiking trip.

Jen Wilkin
I’m just saying some some men, and also I don’t want to go on a hiking trip. Let me be clear, but that there were hundreds of opportunities for the men to deepen trust and relationship with each other, and the women could never have. And I don’t expect that the men and the women will share the same depth of friendship with each other that they have with with their in their single gender spaces, because there’s just there are so many good and beautiful ways in which those relationships can be developed. But should the disparity be so great that we only know each other this much, and that was one of the things that we just determined we’re not going to be like this anymore. We’re going to actually know each other so that we can genuinely say we love each other and mean

Vanessa Hawkins
it. I love it. I love it. How would you guys? What encouragement would you give to pastors about what’s the beauty? I mean, you’ve been painting a picture and wanting to give you an opportunity just to say it. Full stop. What what are what are the beauties of men and women working together? Why would you encourage pastors to go after this?

Michael Keller
I mean, unity. I feel like I’m saying the same thing every every time, but it’s the unity and diversity. We celebrate biodiversity. We celebrate racial diversity. We should be we should be celebrating gender diversity in our in our spaces because we see things differently. I mean, and and and and you know, it’s the beauty in marriage, but it’s actually the beauty in our in our church, you know, hierarchies, programming, everything else. That I think there’s just such a better story where it is fascinating that as as culture has said there is no difference. We’ve actually hypersexualized the differences and like so that we can’t even be in the same room, you know, because of of temptations and stuff like that. Versus saying, hey, we’re different. Let’s let’s be aware of those differences. Let’s not play them down, but there’s a good in this difference, and I’m missing out on if I don’t actually get to know who you are, not just individually, but but relationally on all the other levels. And I I think there’s just such a when people say, well, you know, when I was working I was working in college ministry, and somebody found out what denomination was part of, they’re like. You must hate women, and I was like, I hear why you’re saying that, but you’re missing out on the on the beauty of of what we’re trying to do here, which is actually elevate each other by saying we’re not going to pretend that we’re actually the same. That that men and women hear sounds differently, they process in different parts of their brain, they see things differently, and that’s a good because then we end up painting and building and doing things, we’re not going to go about it the same way, and that’s going to actually love and serve and build in wonderful ways. So that’s what I would say.

J. T. English
Yeah, I agree with that. I think we’re using a few different kind of pictures here. I mean, one of the pictures that we’ve tried to paint is the local church as a family. That’s been meaningful to me is the as the you know having a single mom also being an only child and so I mean quite literally part of the got the good news the gospel for me is I’m now invited into this family of God where brothers and sisters get to love each other but I think another phrase that you just used Jen and Michael is friendship man I think what an opportunity the church has in a moment of extreme isolation, hyper individualism, for the body of Christ-not just to imitate what it looks like to be a part of a healthy family, a spiritual family of brothers and sisters, but to retrieve friendship, to retrieve just genuine collegiality with each other. And I would just tell tell you, brothers and sisters that are in the room, kind of thinking about how to take next steps forward. There isn’t a perfect path. It’s not the here’s the four step plan to building friendship and a brother sister relationship. There is going to be risk. Trust needs to be developed, but it’s worth it.

Michael Keller
Yeah,

J. T. English
it’s worth it. Worth the risk. It’s worth the risk. I’ve experienced that now at the two churches that I’ve had the opportunity to be in leadership at, and I don’t. We don’t have a playbook. We don’t have a plan, and it’s not perfect, and but I would just say that the friendships that I have on my staff team and the genuine brotherly, sisterly nature that I feel like I have with my colleagues reminds me of the good news of the gospel that I am no longer an only child, that I I no longer just have a mom that is an authority figure over me, but I have a heavenly father who loves me, has invited me and adopted me into this family of relationships that I’ll never have biologically, but now have at a much deeper level because of the blood of Christ.

Jen Wilkin
I am going to key in on that friendship idea a little bit more. I, through the years, have had the opportunity to talk about just parenting things sometimes at this conference, and one of the things that I run into so often with parents who have more than one child is they believe that sibling rivalry is the best they can hope for in their homes, and I would have thought that too, except that I married someone whose best friend growing up was his sister, like to the point that I had to mock it because it made me feel so uncomfortable. Like Jeff and his sister Emily would hold hands at Disney World in high school together. They would her senior year of high school. She couldn’t get a date to her big school dance, and so he came home from college and took her to the dance. And I was so. I just thought that’s not right. That can’t be right. I have to. I have to criticize that or make fun of that. But then it occurred to me. No, what if that is possible? Like, what if my vision for my own children’s interactions is too small? So we raised our kids to be best friends with each other. We have two boys, two girls, and it worked. And I think that sometimes the reason that the church falters around the question of men and women is because we believe the best that we can hope for is sibling rivalry. And in the book of Proverbs, it says, “There is a friend who sticks closer than a brother. In other words, the category for siblinghood in the Bible is meant to be a baseline understanding of friendship. Like friendship and siblinghood can almost be interchanged the way they’re used in the proverbs, it doesn’t just mean my sister who I make fun of or my brother who’s so weird and smells funny. It means I was back to literal family there. I hope people in your church aren’t weird and smell funny, but probably some of them do. But my my point would just be: what if the family of God had a more beautiful vision for siblinghood than we have sometimes even believed or experienced in our own nuclear families. What if we truly believed that these spiritual siblings are meant to be friends who stick closer than a brother? That’s all I got.

Vanessa Hawkins
Amen. And what a great point to conclude on. Can we thank our panelists for a wonderful discussion, I’m going to close with a word of prayer. Gracious Father, we thank you for the opportunity to serve in your church. We thank you, Lord, that we get to be called your children. We get to be a part of your family, Father. I pray that you would give us a vision of how that looks, how it looks, Lord, to live as family, how to love our siblings well, how to move towards them in a context not of fear, Father, but of freedom. So, Lord, teach us Your ways. Teach us to be the family that You have called us to be. In Christ’s name, we ask it. Amen.