How Discipleship Strengthens the Church

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Melissa Kruger
Hi there, my name is Melissa Kruger. And this is the panel on discipleship, building churches one life at a time. We’re so glad you could join us. We’re glad you could join us if you’re here in person, or if you’re watching virtually. So thank you for coming and being a part. I’m going to start with panel introductions. So we’re just gonna go down and introduce ourselves. Sure,

Trillia Newbell
I’m Trillia Newbell. I’m a writer, speaker, and so glad to be here from Franklin ish, Tennessee.

Vanessa Hawkins
I’m Vanessa Hawkins, I’m the director of women’s ministry at First Presbyterian Church Augusta, and the diversity advisor for PCA women’s ministry.

Courtney Doctor
I’m Courtney Doctor, and I’m the coordinator of women’s initiative for the gospel coalition.

Melissa Kruger
One thing all of us love to do is disciple and just we’ve all seen the benefits of being discipled in our own life, and discipling others, so I’m just going to ask some questions. And we’re going to go through this and hopefully it will be helpful. So the first thing I think that’s helpful to talk about is what do we even mean, when we talk about discipleship? How would you define it? And where do we see it in Scripture? So Vanessa, Will you kick us off with that EASY Quote? Absolutely,

Vanessa Hawkins
Absolutely. The concept of discipleship is throughout Scripture. I mean, we see it in the gospels, we see it in Acts, the pastoral epistles, but I think maybe the most direct and the most comprehensive teaching about discipleship is the Great Commission, Matthew, 2819, and 20. And in that Jesus is calling the disciples to be well go and make disciples, and teaching them to obey all the things that He has commanded. And that’s a pretty big pursuit, in that teaching to obey all that God has commanded is a lifelong process. And so I would describe discipleship as one, it’s that coming from darkness to light is coming from death to life. That’s that conversion experience where we began to follow Christ. But then it’s being imitators of Christ. Paul says, Be imitators of Christ as their children. But more than just walking, where he walked and doing the things he did, it’s also growing in affection for him. It is growing in our worship, and then I’m loving devotion for him. And so I guess a brief description, I think of discipleship in this way, lifelong, growing in the knowledge of the Lord, lifelong growing, and growing in His likeness. And then lifelong growing in affections for him as well. And, and then finally, we do all of those things until we finally see the Lord. And so growing in the knowledge of the Lord growing in the likeness of the Lord, growing in our passions, and our desires for the Lord until we see the Lord. And then Jen, and then John tells us when we do see Him, we will be like Him, but we’ll see Him as He is

Melissa Kruger
a love what you just said, discipleship isn’t a you become like me. Yeah, I just love how you’re saying, No, it’s all about being like the Lord. And so as I’m walking toward the Lord, I’m helping you walk through. Absolutely, that’s really good coordinates, really anything to add,

Trillia Newbell
the only thing I was thinking is that it’s also in relationship to other so that Jesus is telling his disciples to go and do these things to teach others to obey. Yeah, so so you’re going to teach people, that’s where discipleship is formed and how it’s, it’s lived out and walked out is in a relationship or some in some way of you going and doing that with one another. And so that was the only thing I was thinking. It’s, it’s so good, and so rich, so I really liked it. Thanks.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, that’s excellent. Courtney, anything else, sir? Well,

Courtney Doctor
I think just what Trulia just said, we’re gonna just bounce off each other this whole time. But what really I just said, the whole idea of Jesus had 12 disciples, I mean, that’s how we started the church. He didn’t come with this, you know, big platform, he invested heavily, daily life on life with 12 men, and because he knew 11 of them were going to go and, and he gave the message to them, he made sure that they were well taught that they understood that they were equipped to, to then go and do likewise and filled the Great Commission, because when he gave the Great Commission, right, he was giving it to men that he had just done that for and done that with. And that’s that’s an amazing thing that he entrusted the message of salvation for the world to 11 men.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah. And I think a passage that speaks to that is Ephesians four. And it talks about how he gave some to be shepherds and leaders for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry. And so that’s kind of the short definition I use equipping the saints For the work of ministry, and so it’s twofold. It’s not just equipping. It’s expectant. Yeah. And so you know, as we equip what we’re not doing is I’m not just pouring into Trulia and saying, so you are, no, I’m pouring into you, because you’re going to pour into others. And this is how the church has always been built. It’s not anything new. But this is from the very beginning. I am, I’m just passing the baton, what I know about Jesus, today, I’m passing on to you. And I’m going to be grabbing the baton from someone else who’s a lot older than me, and still learning. So I’m constantly learning and growing. And I’m constantly passing on to someone else. And it’s really a beautiful, beautiful picture. It is. Well, so one thing I want to get a little bit personal for a minute. So I want to talk about who has discipled you and what did you learn from their example? And I’m actually gonna start down with Courtney.

Courtney Doctor
Okay, well, I think you’re starting with me, because it’s a little bit of a funny story. But I didn’t know I needed somebody to disciple me, I was just coming to know the Lord. I was in my early 20s, we had moved to Jackson, Mississippi, and I had two small boys and felt like the Lord was calling me to go back to school. So we put an ad in the newspaper for somebody to babysit our children for two or three days while I was in class. And a woman answered the ad, she started coming and babysitting. But it was it was just God’s way of bringing this woman into my life. Because she, she just was really direct and challenged me and asked me questions about my brand new walk with the Lord. And then this woman would go home after, so she would watch my children. And then she would stay and talk with me, then something would just be burdened on her heart, she would write me a letter, maybe three, four pages, handwritten, about the Lord and about how I needed to be pursuing him. I mean, she was not gonna let me off easily. It wasn’t it was what you just said, it wasn’t just about, hey, you know, I need to learn how to, you know, make a better meal or whatever, um, she wanted me to pursue the Lord and her investment of time to talk with me to write me letters to invest in me to challenge me. So that was it was a, it wasn’t a formal discipleship relationship. But it’s a relationship that I think back on so often. And and I wonder often, am I pursuing him passionately enough, that this Dear woman, Jean would be pleased to see my pursuit of him, she wasn’t going to be satisfied with anything less.

Melissa Kruger
That’s great. I love just that. She’s spoken. She wasn’t afraid. And I know sometimes, as an older person, a younger person, I’m like, Oh, if I tell them something, they might not want to be in relationship with me anyway. And it’s important to remember they’re rejecting the truth of Scripture, not rejecting me. And so I can be bold and loving. And both they’re they’re not in opposition to one another. And we may not know, she probably didn’t know in that moment, what she was doing was impacting you. But now, now she does if she didn’t have before. What about you, Vanessa, or

Trillia Newbell
any meenie miney? Moe?

Vanessa Hawkins
Yeah, what I think of who might one of my earliest disciples, that’s my grandmother, my grandmother was very arthritic, all of my life from my earliest memories of her. And I can remember her just walking down the hall just trying to hold herself steady. But to see her get on those arthritic knees every morning, to pray, and then to pull herself up. And I would always kind of wonder if she could that that sermon plays in my head about persevering and loving the Lord, I see a picture of that. And then she would make her way to the living room, and she would, she had a lift chair, and she would sit down with her old tattered Bible, and tattered Bible, and she would pass me my book of Bible stories from the time I That’s my earliest memories. And so she would sit down and she plopped me down. And it was Bible study. And that was every day. That’s what we did every day. My, from the earliest time I could hold the book till I was five and ready to go to school. So my love for the Lord what she did was she she modeled loving the Lord for me in such a way that I couldn’t help but love him. And so that was my earliest discipleship. I love that. Yeah,

Courtney Doctor
that’s the only grandmother on the panel. That’s so encouraging to me. That and we hear those testimony. Yeah. Grandmothers that prayed for and that modeled their their walk with the Lord and makes

Trillia Newbell
me think of the lowest in each unit. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I’ll tell you, I didn’t become a Christian until the age of 22. So I needed to say, I didn’t know anything about the Lord at all, barely. And so when I became a Christian I was eager to learn from anyone who would teach me. And so there was an older woman who would allow me to, or she, I say, allow, she welcomed me to come to her home. And, and she had six kids, maybe five at the time. And, and so she would be doing whatever her her life and she just invited me in. So it wasn’t anything formal. But it was still discipleship, because she would talk about the Lord and she would be doing her thing. And she didn’t feel this need to dress up herself or to be a perfect version of herself. It was like her house was trash. And she, and she knows it. So it’s not as and she welcomed me in. And so it was good. And so from from the beginning, when I first became a Christian, it was pretty instilled in me that I could not walk this walk without someone. Yeah. And I Yeah, so I have always had some kind of disciple, ship or discipling relationship. Usually with an older woman.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, I love each of these because there’s different but similar and what I would say if you want to take like, a few points, discipleship is bold. What Courtney talked about, it’s bold, love for another. Vanessa, what I think about with your grandmother is integrity. It’s it’s the personal integrity of someone walking with the Lord is always going to make the biggest impact than having necessarily all the right answers. Wherever that daily faithfulness of walking with Jesus will make you someone who disciples others, I fully believe that as I am growing in him, I will grow and then hospitality. It’s like, we often think of hospitality, I think, like Martha Stewart. And the reality is, this woman was hospitable in a way that let you into her life. And the best hospitality we can give is if we introduce someone to Jesus, we’re introducing them to eternity. And so all of these things are just ways to be bold, to have integrity, and to be hospitable. There’s a really practical ways that we can come alongside people and disciple them. Within the context of our own life, someone who really impacted me was actually a high school teacher of mine. She was she chose to teach in the public high school, and she was there as a missionary. And it was through her life that I really started to understand what our relationship with Christ was. And she was so impactful on me, and she was one of those bold people. She was bold, she would tell you what you were doing wrong. But I loved it. I loved it, because she really helped me. She was constantly saying she had integrity. And she was saying, Don’t you be up there leaving our fellowship group if you haven’t been spending time with the Lord. And so I just, these people impacted all of us. And I think probably, I know, for me, the investment I received, is what made me so deeply desirous to invest in others in the same way 100% Because that life on life, they put flesh, on what it means to be patient on what it means to be kind on what it means to be loving. And so while we can read, be all those things, when you see it lived in front of you, it’s really helpful to understand how to do it. So I think we can all say, and I’m sure everyone in here, and everyone watching can talk about people who have been examples to them. Well, truly, I’m gonna ask you this question, because I think this is really helpful, because I think a lot of people want to be discipled. And they don’t know, how do I do that? Like, what do I do I see these people. I’d love to ask them questions, but I don’t know how to do it. So any advice, like get practical with us? Any advice on how to do it?

Trillia Newbell
Absolutely. I am one who just asks, and it sounds easier than it is. Because you have to be prepared for someone to say I don’t have time, or to reject you or to never respond back. And and so there is a sort of, you know, fear and trepidation. Oh, I don’t know if I can ask, but most people are so honored that you would consider them to disciple you. So practically speaking, I think one of the things to do is just to be bold, and go and ask for help. Which means another practical thing, I really believe the local church is central. So I was able to look at the landscape and say, See what women can assist in helped me grow, which there were plenty, because I was a part of a local search. So being a part, which I guess is a practical step, investing in the local body and so that you can, can go and find people to ask I think is, is essential. But I also want to talk if I may, to the person who is able to disciple which all of us are, but you’re you’re just holding back I would also encourage you to pursue people, yes, pursue people because they, they may be afraid they may be. I wasn’t terribly afraid. But I do know a lot of people who come to me and they’ll ask me and they are intimidated, or they’re fearful. And I’m like, I’m just a stupid Senator like you, let’s do this. And so I think if if you are an older man or a woman, there are people in your lives and your congregations who are longing to be discipled. So I just want to encourage you to go and do pursue people as well.

Melissa Kruger
That’s great. I love that. I love that pursue either way.

Courtney Doctor
Either way, either way, that’s really good. And to encourage people, I would say I asked three women in my 30. So by the time I realized I needed somebody to disciple me, I asked three women, and they all said no. And it I think that whole experience was so helpful, because it has shaped how I respond when when women ask, but I also think for any of you that are in the role that Melissa was talking about earlier, that you are in a role that you can equip the saints for the work of ministry, equip women and men to be able to say, yes, make them feel like they give them the tools they need, in order to say I can do this because I can I can walk you through book of the Bible. And there are so many great resources available Melissa’s book growing together David helms book, reading the Bible, one one on one, there are so many great practical tools and resources that that it’s part of our equipping the church, so that so that people say, yes,

Melissa Kruger
that’s really good. That’s good.

Vanessa Hawkins
I think sometimes asking people to disciple making sounds like a really big thing. Sounds like this big, nebulous, you know, I got to lay down my life for you and for you. And so sometimes I think if we kind of ask them something more specifically about what we want to be discipled in that’s so for instance, even if it’s, can I take you out for a cup of coffee, I’d love to talk to you about how you’ve done this in life. That’s all that’s a lot more a lot less intimidating than saying disciple me. And so sometimes I think that the how we ask, it can get us a little more success sometimes to

Trillia Newbell
affirm that because I, she’s exactly right. There was one woman who I knew she’s not gonna be doing a Bible study or whatever. But I said, Hey, my daughter is like screaming on the floor. Can you help me with that? She was like that I can help you. Right. And so that was that’s really good, Vanessa. Yes.

Melissa Kruger
Yes. And I think I will say, it’s just asking for coffee or a meal. First, rather than will you disciple me, because the mentor hears? Will you do this for the rest of my life? Right. Yeah. And it’s terrifying. Yeah.

Courtney Doctor
Right. I’m a big fan of having for specific things. Oh, I see what you’re asking them to do. When you’re asking them to do it, how long? And what I think those are my so you would ask somebody, would you be willing to read the book of Ephesians? With me twice a month, at a coffee shop for the school year? You know, as specific as possible? Would you be willing to meet with me over the summer, once a week, so we can talk about marriage, I mean, the those things can change. But the more specific you are either in the Ask or in the, the setting up of the relationship where there’s an end date, yes. And a specified time. It’s just very freeing, then when you come to the end of that school year, or you come to the end of that summer to be able to say, because Melissa, what you started off with was this is not just I want to pour into your life for the rest of your life. This is I want to pour into your life. So you then are equipped to go to likewise. So this isn’t just great encouragement over coffee, we’re actually equipping for ministry to others. So so that content matters.

Melissa Kruger
Absolutely. Absolutely. Those are great. And if you’re running, if you’re looking for practical tips on how to run a discipleship ministry or mentoring ministry in your church, I’m gonna give just a couple of ideas, because sometimes I think these are most of ours were organic, you know, and so they just happen. But I have found that sometimes if there’s been no culture of discipleship in the church, there’s no organic, this is not happening. So one thing we did in our church, because I kept getting people asking, I’d love a mentor. I’d love a mentor, and it was always this. It’s like matchmaking or something like I’m I don’t know how to do this. Who’s gonna fit I need an app. I need a dating app. I need a mentoring dating app. And so one thing we did we wanted mentoring to be about the topic, not about the person necessarily wanting people to really consider where they needed to grow spiritually. And we also arrange these groups in groups of one mentor to one one to two to four people, because sometimes that actually works better and keeps everybody on topic. Rather than because sometimes mentoring relationships can devolve into my wife is crazy. And there’s so much traffic and you spend an hour doing that. And then you spend two minutes on prayer requests or something like that. And so we formed these groups, we formed them all over the city that we lived in, and we put the time on them. And we put the topic so one of them we would normally do a book study, so might be praying together, it might be reading a book of the Bible together and studying that. They all sorts of things. One time, it was a systematic theology book. And we did different things like that. And all we did was, say the time and then they signed up. So they actually didn’t know who their mentor was going to be. And that saved us a lot of headache on both ways, because then if no one signed up for Courtney, systematic theology, it was they didn’t want to do that. It wasn’t, I don’t want Courtney to be my mentor,

Courtney Doctor
oh, man, I’d go find them and make them.

Melissa Kruger
So it just helps. So that’s just a practical idea. And what I saw happen, so we did that. And I was in that for about eight years. And what I saw start to happen was, then it started to happen organically. So we set up a program. But then what would happen is three women who were good friends would go to an older woman, and they knew how to do it, they would say, for a year, will you go through this mothering book with us, because we’re on the same life stage. So it started to happen, but they had to have a vision for how it could happen before the organic could happen. And so I do think as we try to do this in our churches, coming up with creative ways to provide a system that can lead to relationship is a great way to just start thinking through some some different ideas. Okay, so Vanessa, how about this? What elements are crucial for a discipleship relationship? How is how is it different than friendship or counseling?

Vanessa Hawkins
Okay, that’s good. Yeah, that’s really good. I think we’ve named a lot of those dynamics that need to be at play. I mean, you’ve called out the integrity, the hospitality, I would add to the hospitality piece that that not only means as truly as example, that had nothing to do with keeping a good house. But what it did, and of course, keeping a few people good house good for you. That’s awesome. But that’s not what discipleship is primarily about. But this hospitality that we’re talking about, that’s more than being welcomed into a claim home. That’s also your story. And all of its messiness is welcome here, that that I want to hear that, that there’s a sense of welcome for you and all that you bring. So that that hospitality as well. So I think it’s different from friendship, in that with mentorship and with discipleship, the goal is to make them look like Jesus to help them to grow into look like Jesus, a friendship may not have that type of end goal. And it’s much different than counseling. In that, you know, discipleship began, the end goal is to look like Christ. And people may raise things in the context of discipleship that require you to maybe refer them to someone if they’re talking about, you know, I don’t know domestic abuse or self harm or suicidal ideations or anything like that maybe time to pull a counselor in. But discipleship, the end goal is that they might look like Christ. And I would say that that also requires that investment, that sense of investment, I think about how Paul said it to the church at Galatia that I’m in the birth of I’m in child, I mean, the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed and you that serious investment, I want to see Christ develop and you so bad, it hurts. It’s kind of what he’s saying. And so it’s having that type of investment in wanting people to look like Christ. I think those are the dynamics I would

Melissa Kruger
so we’re inviting you to labor pains for discipleship Any other thoughts on that question? Like what what’s crucial for discipleship? Any other Vanessa got it?

Courtney Doctor
Can we Oh

Melissa Kruger
that’s good. I do think that whole focus on pointing someone to Jesus as I follow Jesus, follow me and then we’re gonna follow him together. Yeah, I love that it’s just a beautiful picture of what discipleship but and and on that truly what you said about the counseling relationship, know when you need to point them to someone else, like we all have limitations, yeah. About what we can know and what we can handle. So we just encourage you. I’ll also say this, it is not our job as disciple errs to make another person grow. And so I am do not feel like a failure if they don’t grow. I mean, there’s some sense the analogy I actually use when I talk about discipleship is an old oak, that standing nice and strong and has weathered lots of years. And we take a younger sapling that’s bent over because of the last storm, and we tethered them together. And so the older tree is helping the younger tree goat grow, right? Simply by standing beside, it’s still the sun and the rain that makes that tree grow. So God is the one who is growing someone we’re standing beside, with the years that have made a sturdy are stronger, and we’re just standing beside and I think there’s a lot of freedom in that. Because when you think of yourself, as someone standing beside, you don’t have to solve their life. You can’t, you don’t have to make them grow. You stand beside and point to Jesus. And I think there’s a lot of rest in that.

Trillia Newbell
Turn into tables, no, only these surely. Well, as you were talking, I kept thinking, and I would love to your perspective, because she has written a book on this. And I have studied it, but she studied it. So what about weakness? Because one of the things that I have been just so appreciated from discipleship relationships is when they get real. Yeah. And we just kind of see, okay, like, not only you’re you’re standing beside but you really beside bounds, you’re a fellow journey, or, though you’re ahead and in so far as years and experience and maybe Bible knowledge. And so one of the things that I just I’ve benefited from is be when when people are really honest about where they are, however, I know that you can’t do that with everyone. So I just wondered your thoughts on that? Because? Because there are some relationships that you’re you’re not going to develop that kind of, yeah, so what? I’m

Melissa Kruger
curious Yeah, well, I think it takes time and some ways like I don’t think we live in a Instagram and store world. But I don’t think you have to snapshot, your worst moment until everything at the beginning. However, I do think part of that hospitality, that Vanessa, and you were both talking about is a willingness, because part of maturity is knowing that we’re all sinners, and we’ve all failed. So it’s actually part of our maturity to be able to admit our weakness. Yeah. And being able to do that, in a right way. Showing what that repentance look like, oh, yeah, I did. My husband and I got into a fight last night, and I yelled at him. And then I went and apologized. Yeah, so being able to confess and repent, that’s actually strength. Absolutely show and you’re modeling, I praise the Lord, I think of this with my children all the time, who were always discipling our children, but sometimes I have to go to them and apologize. And a lot of times this felt like this huge failure because of that. And then finally, I realized, you know what, they’re gonna say, and right now I’m modeling for them. What do I do with this problem called Seven? Yep. I confess it, I repent of it. And I apologize. And that is a lesson for them to learn. And so I think that’s so good. Even our weakness, maturity, can admit weakness. It’s actually immaturity. That has to hide. So that’s a great point. I think that’s just a really good, good question. Thank you. Okay, so some let, Courtney, I’m gonna start with you on this one, any practical tips on discipling others and some of these you may have already gotten to but what have you learned through the years? Like, how do you disciple differently now than maybe you did years ago? Well,

Courtney Doctor
I think I want to answer that in two different ways. So the first way, I want to answer it practical tips for creating a culture of discipleship in your local church. So a more systemic, maybe from the point of a leadership role. I would say that what you were saying earlier that we talked all the time about we love this word organic, we just want these relationships to develop organically, well, they don’t always happen organically, and I don’t know that organically it creates an entire culture, they may be one offs over here and there. But if you are in a position where you can create that culture or participate in creating that culture in your church, then I think that that right, that right balance or that right tension between saying that there needs to be enough structure provided so maybe that’s we’re going to offer three training times or we’re going to offer some some opportunities for women to get together or men I mean, I’m a you know, I’m so used to speaking in women’s ministry but but that we’re going to offer some times for for couples or for gender specific discipleship pairs to meet and to get together. We’re gonna offer the structure and we’re going to support them in a way of saying, here are some areas that discipleship Tip tends to gravitate towards. So marriage, family Bible study, learning to read the Bible, just that life on life. So offering the resources for that, so that people aren’t going into it blind, that is where you can start creating that culture. So those are just some very practical tips. If we just step back and say, I just want it to happen organically, it really it. I’ve never seen it take traction like that in a way that is a systemic traction for your entire group for your entire church. But then just personally, some practical tips that I think are important is one thing, we just keep saying over and over again, it’s just that welcome, hey, come be part of my life. So I love discipleship relationships, I love being in discipleship relationships. And they do take a they do take a variety of different forms. But I can think of young women that have literally just sat at my kitchen island while I chopped brussels sprouts, and you know, got dinner ready, or a woman that, you know, she’ll run errands with me, and just get in my car. And so that relational piece where we’re not just we’re not just watching somebody on social media and reading their posts, now there, there is some good that comes out of that. But the difference is, you know, you don’t get to be in that person’s car when she’s cut off in traffic. My friends, they’re in my car, they see who I am, when I’m cut off in traffic, and it’s not pretty, and then they see me repent. So it’s a, there’s a holistic approach, or, or when the, you know, the phone call interrupts or whatever. So there’s this life on life that cannot be replicated if we’re not truly in relationship with each other. So you all offer some more, but those are, I would say, systemically that’s the those are some practical tips. And then just that welcome of hey, can be a part of what I’m doing. Because my, it’s Karen Ellis preached on Friday night, and she said, your your do has to match your say, and I love to that. And so that idea of our do matching our say, Can’t tell if you’re not in life on life. That’s great.

Vanessa Hawkins
That’s so good coordinate. Because what I’m hearing all throughout, what you’re saying is proximity, proximity, and that requires the local church that that proximity that being up close and personal and being folded into my life not being held at a distance or not watching me on a screen. But seeing me in those intimate actions those processes of life is, is where Jesus pulled the disciples who they came and followed him. They were up close and personal. So that proximity matters.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Trillia Newbell
And when I was hearing both, you, Courtney and Melissa, you’ve talked about systems and organization, and I couldn’t help but think how helpful that will be for the person who isn’t bold to have, you’re not going to lose your people, if you have something in place for them. Because I’m gonna go and I’m gonna find my people I’m gonna, but not everyone is at my husband’s a good example, he’s gonna find maybe one person, but he’s, he’s not going to run around trying to find disciples, you know. And so, but having a system and a structure, I think is going to help all the people with all their various gifts, and personalities. And and so I just, that’s what I thought is I think that’s, it’s essential to serving the body of Christ. Yeah, loving him.

Melissa Kruger
Absolutely. Absolutely. And one other practical tip, I would say is, look for people in your immediate context and choose to be in context is that our broad, meaning, if you’re only in people in your own life stage, it’s going to be hard to find people to reach back to or to draw from. So be really thoughtful about the Bible study you join, you know, if you want to meet older people, are there any older people in the Bible say, are they all your age? Like? Or if you want to meet younger people? Are you willing, as a 60 year old to go to the 25 year old Bible study, you know, and just do that and say, I’m here and I’ll help in any way I can. So putting yourself in a position where you can meet people, I think is a huge thing. The other thing I would say, is invite people into your own ministry. Sometimes I know our ministry lives get so full, that we think how on earth can I do one more thing? And, you know, I told the story last week, and I actually was I was working on a Bible study. And to be quite honest, I didn’t want to write the whole thing. And so I asked this younger friend if she wanted to help me, help write it with me. And that started this whole mentoring relationship as I helped her learn how to write questions, but she was also helping me. And so we were doing it together and I would say more good fruit happened over doing ministry together than actually me just sitting and asking her questions about her life all the time. So joining in together and say, Hey, come alongside with come alongside me as we Do this and you know, you’re not going to teach all eight weeks of Sunday school, but come and teach one week, come and teach one week, and then I’ll give you feedback, and I’m going to help you. And that’s just a great way to do that life on life. And that I want you to see that is how the church is built. If I never say no, someone else never gets to say, yes. So part of this is understanding, we’re all limited. And when I say no, it lets someone else step up to the, to the plate, so to speak, even if it’s just one week, we don’t give them the whole eight weeks or whatever.

Courtney Doctor
And what you’re saying is not just I’ll say no. So you can say yes, you’re saying, I’m going to say yes, but come with me and do it. And I know people that won’t step into ministry responsibilities, without bringing someone else with them. And that is where we are passing on the ability to equip the saints for the work of ministry, because we’re saying, Come do it with me, that’s one of the most powerful discipleship models. And Melissa, one of the things you’ve said multiple times is, as you’re reaching up or reaching down sort of in your and I think along those lines, we had a professor in seminary, who would always say that’s how you go through life, this was he would stand in front of the classroom. And he’d say, you always have one hand up, and you always have one hand down. And it was so convicting, because I think we tend to think, well, until I’m X years old, I am the one that will be discipled. And then once I hit this magical age, then I’m going to be the one that’s discipling. Well, I think we’re always both, I think that we are always we’re, we’re even modeling that We Never Outgrow the Need for someone else to disciple and to teach us. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be somebody older, I learned that the older I get, the more I realize that my my pool of who I’m learning from, they’re getting younger, but I’m learning a lot from these from these women and so and men, but that, that we aren’t just in one role or the other.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, yeah. Well, that’s good. And

Vanessa Hawkins
I would also say that just inherent to the Gospel, the Great Commission is the charge to disciple other ethnic groups, and perhaps to be discipled by other ethnic groups. And so having some intentionality around that, so when he’s when Christ says, to teach all nations all ethnic, a, all ethnic groupings, man, that means there is something that we learn cross culturally, that is so beautiful in the body of Christ. And so being intentional about that some of my best mentors have been cross cultural. There’s this Australian guy right now that I’m pursuing to help to help me and yeah, I’m gonna keep bugging him until he helps me but yeah, so. But that’s, that’s inherent to the the Great Commission,

Trillia Newbell
I think that’s so important. And I’m gonna echo that, because these races, I just one of the joys I had when I became a Christian is that a young white woman shared the gospel with me. And then I was longing for those relationships that were diverse. And the Lord allowed me to be in a relationship with these gals. And we did, we did accountability. So it was a little bit more like friendship, but there weren’t a lot of discipling because Amy, she’s wide, and then Lily, and she’s Chinese and Mae black. And so we have this multi ethnic kind of discipleship, we learned so much from each other. And it was so beneficial, because we had all these different perspectives and life experience and, and Amy was the oldest in the faith. And so she, she’s just like, same age, but oldest in the faith, because I had just become a Christian. And so there was still a mentorship and discipleship. Sure, yeah. Because of her age in the in as a Christian. So

Courtney Doctor
truly a you have a great quote in your book, and I’m not going to do it justice. But you in United, you talk about the beauty of seen, as the example is a CEO, a corporate CEO being mentored or discipled by a younger, and it was it, I don’t remember is like a majority culture man being mentored by the mom a person of color, and but so beautiful, because they both knew that the younger person of color was the more spiritually mature Do you remember that quote? I do. Yeah, I do. And I don’t remember who said it, but it was absolutely beautiful. And it’s so true. So age doesn’t necessarily it’s not necessarily the defining mark of who’s going to mentor whom. And to Vanessa’s point, we absolutely need to be learning from a wide variety of people and perspectives. And so I really, I love that that we need it’s the spiritual maturity. That’s who’s going to mentor the less spiritually mature is the one that will

Melissa Kruger
be well this is good because it kind of does get us to and truly I’m gonna start with you. What is the goal of all this? Why is it so important? Is this just let’s have coffee together so we feel better about ourselves and You know, feel good. Yeah, just get to know one another. Yeah, exactly. What Why are why do we do this? Because it’s gonna honestly, it’s gonna cost us something. Yeah, it’s gonna cost to learn from other people and to listen to other people and to be bold with other people. It costs it and they may not go well, sometimes. Yeah, they may say, I don’t like what you’re telling me. I’m out. Yeah. So why don’t we do this?

Trillia Newbell
We have a race, this race seven. And we cannot run it alone. And God never intended us for us to so kind of like the beginning where Vanessa defined all of this, we are being transformed to the image of Christ. And so as we are becoming more and more like Him, we need others to teach us. It’s of eternal significance. So that is why and if you try to obey the scriptures, in isolation, good luck with that. I mean, there’s so many things one another’s and so we need one another as well. So God has called us to a body to a church. And it is we cannot, we’re not going to finish the race alone. So I just believe it. It’s, it’s eternal. Like there’s an eternal significance. And, and that’s what that’s what’s going to motivate us because we, we we longed to see Jesus and we longed for everyone to or we should. And so that, I think is why this is so important.

Melissa Kruger
That’s good. That’s good. Any other final thoughts on why we do this? Why is it worth it?

Vanessa Hawkins
Just fresh off of James. You know, we just came from the Women’s Conference, right? Yeah. And so fresh off of James so that we might be full, complete. Yeah, sure. and complete, lacking in nothing, which implies that when we have not reached that maturity, we’re lacking some. There’s a fullness that the Lord has for us in discipleship. That is so good and so beautiful. Yeah. And then as Troy you said, it has eternal significance. As John said that then we will one day be like him, where we will see Him as He is. And then that is the fullness of that beauty.

Melissa Kruger
That sounds good. Any final?

Courtney Doctor
No, I mean, we can’t do it alone. I look at my actually became a believer in middle school and didn’t really come to know the Lord and out until after college and what was lacking in those years was any discipleship at all. So profession of faith, I think it was real faith. And, and then nothing and to know the void in my life during those years because nobody was it wasn’t anybody it was I was not in proximity. I wasn’t in a church I wasn’t and so the lack of it in my own life compels me because I know the need for it. Yeah, I’ve seen it both ways. I’ve seen what my life and my walk with the Lord looks like with somebody disciple in me. And I’ve seen what my life looks like, without somebody disciple in me. And it’s all the difference in the

Melissa Kruger
world. Yeah. And I would just close with you never know which ones will stay the long haul. Like I’ve discipled certain people it was for a short season, and then it moved on. But I can also say that the woman I led that Bible study with she had come into my life because my one of my one of my college roommates called and said, I had the best babysitter and you know that that’s like gold. When your mom you like get the best babysitter, okay? And she said to this girl, I called her and she started babysitting for my kids. She was single, she was 22. And I was I don’t know how old I was. I had two kids. And so she walked with me. All through my young child years, and we just got to know each other. We prayed together regularly. We started writing Bible study together, she went to seminary, she would come to my house, and it was so refreshing to me. Yes, so I’m pouring into her in some ways, is the older woman. But, you know, everybody I’m around is talking about diapers and feeding schedules. So to get to talk to her about her systematic theology class was joy to me. And then we wrote this Bible study together, and now she lives five houses down from me, and she got married later in her 30s. And now my home is full of teenagers and her home is full of little children who run into my house. My children used to run to her and say, Mrs. Mrs. Angela, now I go to her kids, and they run to me, and I have no little children. And so it’s just this beautiful picture I couldn’t have known when she started coming into my life, long time ago that we would have this friendship that ended up with her as my neighbor. But the beauty of this life on life, it just progresses and grows and we’ve gotten to share all the seasons together. And so I just encourage you, it is a blessing to pour in, but we receive back just as much as we pour in.