The Cultural Myths That Fail Us

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Christopher Watkin
Well, let me wish you a very warm welcome to the Gospel Coalition podcast. I’m Christopher Watkin, and today I have the great pleasure of speaking with Dr. Michael Keller, pastor of Redeemer Lincoln Square in Manhattan, and author of the fascinating new book, *The Stories We live by how Jesus critiques and completes what our culture tells us. Michael, welcome to the show.

Michael Keller
Thanks for having me, Chris. It’s great to be here,

Christopher Watkin
Michael. I’d love to begin with the the big idea in the title of your book. This idea of cultural narratives. Of all the books you could have written. What drew you to write a book about this thing called cultural narratives right now?

Michael Keller
Well, first, it’s a co-written book. It’s my father’s material that we agreed would even after death we should put it out. It’s his one of his last, I think sustained arguments of cultural analysis-it’s really, really great stuff. But I have to just say it’s his ideas, generally speaking. And he helped me. I mean, I found 40,000 60,000 words on this topic on his computer. But we beforehand organized the layout, all the stuff ahead of time. But reason why we wanted to do this is because we’re not. I think we’re realizing this more and more. Humans are not merely thinking apparatuses. We are story based people. We we don’t think our way through life. We story our way through life, and whatever captures your imagination, that is the direction that you go in. And you can call it cultural narratives, you can call it stories, but generally speaking, we are the stories we live by. That’s hence the title.

Christopher Watkin
And you you begin the book with a beautiful story of your own, where your father, in his final months, is praying the Lord’s prayer with you. He’s saying the creed with you, and you have this reflection that these are not just doctrines that you both believe, but they’re they’re stories that you’re living in. And I just love to tease out the difference there. What’s the what’s the difference between an idea or a doctrine in your head and that the creed or the Lord’s prayer is a story that you’re living in?

Michael Keller
Yeah, I think it made sense to start a conversation about stories with your own. And the story I was going through with writing the book was dealing with my dad’s dealing with grief from my dad’s death, and the stories are always around us. In this case, the stories that often we tell each other in death is don’t worry, your father’s looking down, you know, on you. He’s in a better place. He’ll always be with you. These these are just sort of cultural platitudes, and we sometimes we think they’re sort of throwaway phrases, but they’re not. They’re they’re packed with direction and meaning. And as I was grappling with these statements that are being said, they just felt so thin. And hearing like “time heals all wounds, I’m like, “Well, does it? Doesn’t feel like it. Everything happens for a reason. Well, okay, but who who who’s directing this, and where is it coming from? So, grief I found is a great diagnostic to kind of get through all the kind of stories and say what’s working, what’s not, and that’s where I started because I think that’s the analysis we need to do is is ask ourselves, what are the stories we’re beholden to? What what what is around us? And I think the aha came to me when I realized that at the end of my dad’s life, the last couple days, he just wanted to repeat the Lord’s prayer and the Apostles’ Creed, and I just thought he was just trying to get his mind off of the pain, and I’m sure there was something there, but thinking back through, I’m like, wait a second-the Lord’s Prayer, the Apostles’ Creed. What are these things? There’s stories in there, you know. When you’re saying, “Our Father who art in heaven, there’s a ton of. What do we mean by “our” What do we mean by “father” These are. There’s a story that’s happening, and He was putting Himself into these stories because it explained the world better to him than the ones that are else that are around. I think that’s that’s true.

Christopher Watkin
It’s really telling, isn’t it? That in your father’s moment of greatest need and sort of greatest everything being stripped away from his life, it was the stories that that he came back to, and that you came to as his son to to sustain you in those moments. These stories are incredibly powerful. We don’t

Michael Keller
realize it. We don’t. We think of them as platitudes and statements, but there’s there’s imagery and imagination and movement that I don’t think we realize. How important it it is, like right? They’re they’re still powerful,

Christopher Watkin
and and they they have that power, don’t they, for for great good in our lives? And they they can also really damage us as well. That you you talk in the book about a whole series of stories in our society that have the power to capture us and sort of give us a particular perspective on the world. I wonder if you could just help us to see how our world is is full of stories. So, so you have these little phrases in the book. There’s you know, follow your heart, or you do you, or you know, he he’s in a better place. The stories around death that you were telling us, and people might think, well, those are not stories; they’re just ideas, or they’re just little throwaway phrases. What what makes these ideas into a story that we live by?

Michael Keller
Yeah, those phrases are not are just we don’t think much of them, but I would say those are stories in a hurry. They, when someone says just be yourself, they’re not just offering a piece of advice. That they’re offering you an account of what a human is. And when you say follow your heart, or you do you, or be on the right side of history, or everything’s about power. These aren’t throwaway statements. They are ways to organize your life, and whether we know it or not, we’ve grown up on them. We’ve we’ve drank from the fountain of of that changes our imagination. Very few people walk around going, asking the sort of philosophical questions: Who am I? And what’s the point of life, and what should I do with myself? And the reason why they we don’t is the stories our culture tells us in these little platitudes, these stories in a hurry, are they’re enough because they they move us enough to say, oh, we know what the point of life is. It’s to be happy. To be happy, it’s to find the thing that makes us happy and not let anybody get in the way of it. Why do we say that? Because we’ve been told that our whole lives. So I, I, I think there’s more stories are more than just phrases, but they’re at least that.

Christopher Watkin
I was trying to imagine someone who’s a little bit skeptical of what you’ve just said, and their reaction would be something like, yeah, of course, the idea of you do you, and you know he’s in a better place or whatever. They’re there in society, but you don’t have to be gullible enough just to swallow those ideas whole. You know, I I live by common sense. I’m my own person. You know, you don’t go to the cinema and see a story, you know, played out in a film, and then pretend to be the hero of the story. We we can tell the difference between stories and reality. And I I’d love you to just speak to that person and try and help them to see how these stories get under our skin. You know, when there’s no loudspeakers in the city center saying “you do you, you know how how do we absorb these stories?

Michael Keller
Yeah, you’re right. Nobody sits down sits down a six year old and says, “Here’s what expressive individualism is, and and then they start being a become an expressive expressive individualist.

Christopher Watkin
That would that would not last long if you tried to do that with your CC. No,

Michael Keller
that is not how it works. Dad used a phrase: “These are more caught than taught. It’s something that gets embodied. You, it’s a way that you watch how people deal with life around you. It’s what your parents sacrifice for, what you’re proud of, what they’re proud of, what makes them anxious, what makes you anxious? And I think it’s absorbed through 1000 different movies. It’s through 1000 different music lyrics. It’s it’s through you know Muana who says you know basically that some of the the songs are like follow your heart and and if there’s a voice inside you that that is who you are. That’s telling you that internally is how you get your identity. You have let it go. I mean, I keep going to like Disney because, but those are those are stories about what’s important about how to have a happy ever a happy ever after life. So I just I think that the stories are found in these, not one statement or one thing. They’re they’re really more along how our culture values things and thinks what the point of life is and what you’re supposed to be doing. Yeah, I know. What do What do you think?

Christopher Watkin
I I think it’s really subtle, isn’t it? And you’ve done a brilliant job of of bringing that out. That nobody ever sits you down and says this is how you should run your life, and that, in a sense, is why these stories are so powerful, because we think they’re our own. Yes. All of us think I came up with this, I chose this, and then when we take a moment to step back and look around, wait a minute. Most other people in society live their lives according to these stories too. So, are they really quite as self-chosen as I thought they were? It it makes you think did did I really get these because I decided in the sort of privacy of my own thinking that this is the best way to live or not? Yeah, the the

Michael Keller
most powerful stories are the ones that you never that you never notice that have ever you know you never notice that they came they they started showing up before you even were old enough to push back.

Christopher Watkin
I mean that’s the theory of propaganda, isn’t it? The best propaganda is propaganda you don’t know is propaganda. You just think it’s obvious.

Michael Keller
That’s right.

Christopher Watkin
I want to stick with our skeptic just for a little moment because I can imagine them still saying at this point in our conversation, I don’t go and watch a Disney film and then think that I’m a Disney princess. I still I’m in control of how I live my life, and I choose which stories to to believe. And one thing that I found really brilliant and so so helpful about your book was that you’ve got these diagnostic questions for people to try and work out what stories am I actually living by, because you have this brilliant point that we often think we’re living by set of stories A, but actually we’re living by set of stories B. So we don’t quite understand ourselves as well as we think we might. I’d love you just to unpack those diagnostic questions for us to try and work out what stories am I actually living?

Michael Keller
Yeah, I mean, it’s to be honest, I kind of stumbled on these on this. This I didn’t find this from from many of Dad’s work, but it was more sitting with my girls, and we’d be watching shows or be watching a commercial, and I would pause it, and I’d just say, girls, what I have two daughters. I’d say, girls, what’s happening here? What’s the promise here? They’re like, well, well, if you if you buy this car, you’ll be happy. See the smiles, or, but then you know, I think I did too much because after like every Disney movie, I’m like, okay, girls, what’s the what’s going on here? And they’re like, well, it’s it’s the movie’s saying, “Follow your heart, and I was like, “Okay, what’s wrong with that? Well, sometimes your heart takes you to places you shouldn’t go. I said, “Okay, and and they they they roll their eyes, but I I’m happy because I know that I’ve given them a grid to realize what’s actually that we’re. And I think the the world is changing. We’re now because so much of our economy is attention economy because of social media and scrolling and things. We’re realizing and waking up. Oh, what we put in is affecting us, and I’m trying to give folks the the kind of hooks to kind of when you watch something, what’s it getting at? What is the value? What’s meaning, purpose, reality? What’s what’s true? What’s not? And I think Dad quoted a bunch of philosophers. You probably can quote who those philosophers are. About every culture has to give you answers to you know who you are, what’s the point of life, what went wrong with the world. What will put it right? How do you get it right? And we don’t actively ask those questions out loud because these mini stories are behind them. And I’m trying to give us ways to kind of identify those through just the small glimpses that we don’t even know that we’re doing, but we’re doing it. I mean, you can probably give a better diagnostic of all that than I can.

Christopher Watkin
Well, no, I I was I found your questions so compelling in the book because I think why I found them so helpful just thinking about my own life was you’re focusing in on the sort of feelings that we all have, but we don’t always register. Like you know, what makes me anxious? When I get anxious, what am I anxious about? And you can see patterns there. Oh, it’s this sort of thing. It’s always my job that makes me anxious. It’s never anything else. It’s always my kids that make me anxious. It’s never anything else. And you know, you say what makes me angry. I think that was so confronting for me. Like the things that ought to make me angry don’t, and the things that shouldn’t make me angry often do. And you’ve got you know what’s making me proud, what’s making me exhausted, and I found those so incredibly helpful for thinking what are the stories that I’m actually living by. Like what story would I need to believe if this was what’s making me anxious, or this was what’s making me angry?

Michael Keller
You know, it reminds me of. I think Dad had a sermon some some time when he said, “Think, what are you daydreaming about? What are you afraid of? Like, what those are the things that are kind of driving you, and in so many different spaces. And so there. Probably outside the. There’s a whole nother podcast to talk about the how idolatry and narratives co-interact together. But I do think that there’s there’s something there that making sure we’re aware and and this is why whether you’re a Christian or not, I really think the book is helpful because if you’re unaware, you can’t actually do anything about it. And I think Christians have probably absorbed more cultural narratives than they think, and are living out them in incomplete forms. But I also think a lot of non-Christians, maybe a lot of folks won’t necessarily become Christians, but I would love for them to become more aware that what they thought would be enough. The reason why it’s not enough is because they’re incomplete. They don’t have the full the full story behind them, and that’s not so important. These aren’t a lot of the longings that are in these stories. A lot of the there’s a lot of truth in each one of these stories, but they’re incomplete, and I and I think that’s what the book tries to do.

Christopher Watkin
Completely agree, and I think that self awareness is incredibly important, isn’t it? In in the same way that we never give people the keys to our house and say just do whatever you want there, it it it is as if we are giving these stories the keys to our minds and our hearts, you know, please, please run this as you see fit, dear story. And and of of course, we would never do that with any physical possession. So why on earth would we remain unaware of these powerful stories that are shaping our views of the world without you know trying to put them on the table in front of us and interrogate them and say, well, is is this a good story? Am I happy to be living by this narrative or not?

Michael Keller
Another phrase like, “What’s the story beneath the story? I mean, when somebody says, “I just need to be happy, that sounds like a story, but it’s not. Like, there’s there’s almost always a question beneath that question, which is, “What do you think you need to have to be happy? You know, and and how do you think you’re going to get that? And that’s that next level. It’s not just the awareness of, oh, I I want to be happy, great. But what do you feel like you need to have? I want to be free. Great, but what do you think will bring freedom? I want an identity, great. And I think you have to keep asking the question beneath the question. And I, I think we hope we hoped that this book would be helpful for that.

Christopher Watkin
Your dad was so powerful and and really helpful on that, wasn’t he? What’s what’s the the sin beneath the sin? What’s the question beneath the question? What’s the story beneath the story? And it’s such a brilliant diagnostic because often we don’t, the stories we tell ourselves are not the real stories, are they? They’re they’re justifications that make us feel good, and then when we get to the actual story underneath the story, then we can really see what’s driving us. And often it’s it’s not what we would hope, and it, but it gives us the opportunity then to to To address it in prayer, to do something about it with others.

Michael Keller
Well, that’s actually where it’s great to. Sorry for interrupting. It’s great to be a skeptical New Yorker because there’s always when you realize that you’re the hero of all your stories, the skeptical New Yorker man goes, but we know that can’t be true. So what, what is it? What what it? What am? Why am I always the winner in my story, and you know what? What do we do about that? But sorry for interrupting. Keep going.

Christopher Watkin
Yeah, no, absolutely. I think the the skeptical Yorkshireman would would join the New Yorker at that point. That’s right. And say, that’s not as good as thou thinks, lad, or something like that.

Michael Keller
I like that. That’s a better accent than than.

Christopher Watkin
Let’s let’s dive into some of these stories specifically. You you begin the book with identity. I’m guessing you do that for for a reason. Why do you think that’s the first story that that you engage with in the book? Why is that a central story today?

Michael Keller
Well, first, it’s the one that I think Dad started with, but we I think he did because it it sort of interweaves into all of them. One of the changes happened in modern identity, and I’d love to hear your thoughts on this too. Is pre modern identity always had fact was external to the person, and opinion was internal, and you needed to align yourself with the facts outside. You need to the passions, the feelings inside are not true. What’s true is what your society tells you, what your family tells you, and you need to align yourself with that. I think what’s happened is, for various reasons, including probably modern culture saying, “Hey, there’s there was a lot of hurt that came out of that. They reversed it, saying, “Hey, fact is now internal, and opinion is everyone else outside, and you need to align yourself with that fact. You need to find who you really are, and by looking on the inside, and then making everybody on the outside align with that.” That’s where the phrase “follow your heart” and you do you and whatnot comes out of. But because of that, that’s why that that’s sort of the modus operandi of our culture, where you will be most happy, you will be most true, you will be most free, you’ll have the most power, you’ll be able to get progress, you’ll be able to get these things if you are most aligned with yourself, with who you’re supposed to be, with who you are. So look inside and start there. And so I think that’s why we started with that because it it does align with all the other ones. But and then there’s there’s a conversation of how these they do interact with each other; they’re both intention, but also parallel to each other. But it made sense to start with identity.

Christopher Watkin
There’s a real tension there, isn’t there? I’m just listening to to that last response. Isn’t it so interesting that all this is in the second person? It’s all about you, rather than in the first person. Not about me. Like if it was really that I find these ideas inside myself and my sense of identity comes from within, surely the slogan would be “I do me, wouldn’t it? Like you do you. It’s like I’m telling you how you should be. You should find your identity in yourself.

Michael Keller
There’s such a declarative. Why do you think that’s a great point? Why do you think that

Christopher Watkin
is? I I wonder whether and you tell me what you think about this. That we so the the it’s the story beneath the story, isn’t it? So the the surface ideology is I am the captain of my own shape, I do me, I make my identity, but the story beneath that story, perhaps, is that I’m utterly reliant on a community, whichever community it is. First of all, to tell me what the acceptable forms of me doing me are, what is likely to be validated, and then to provide that validation for for people to say it’s wonderful that you’re doing you in this particular way, and so there is a sense in which the the way that we do identities is very internalized, but when you start unpicking that, it it is reliant on a community first of all to create a space in which that internalized identity can happen, and then to give some options that are likely to be validated, and then to validate it, and so it’s not the story is more complex than identity used to be just given to us from the outside, and now it’s just made from insiders, because you can’t identity doesn’t work without a community to validate it, and the community will set boundaries on what it is willing to validate. What do you think?

Michael Keller
That’s such a good point. I never thought of that. You do you is a declarative statement. It is an imperative. It’s a command, ironically, from one to the other. If it was really all about you and your internal view, then you wouldn’t need confirmation from anyone else about whatever I come up with. But if you look at how we’re doing it, we still, whatever I come into contact with, whatever I am, I still need the world to affirm that. This is actually why one of the we talk about this in the book. One of the problems is with this view of identity that you end up weaponizing different views of identity towards each other. You have the J.K. Rowling feminists that are at warring with the sort of trans rights individuals who have a very different view of how gender and identity work, but they’re they’re zero sum games because there’s no way when you start identifying. I need you to hear what I’m saying. You can’t. Nobody’s comfortable going. Well, that’s my view. You know, you have your view. We say that on the surface. This this gets into the morality narrative, which I summarize by saying the the morality narrative, modern morality narrative is morals are relative. You know, there’s no such there’s no right. It’s all relative. But if you don’t do it our way, we’re going to cancel you, which is so ironic. But that’s the word. But that’s why because that gets back to the identity thing that we still need people to hold our view, whether we pretend like, hey, it doesn’t matter what you you do you, but then why are we still telling you to do it? It’s still my version.

Speaker 1
Yes,

Michael Keller
I think it’s a great. If I do

Christopher Watkin
me because you tell me to do me, am I really doing me, or am I just internalizing what you’ve told me to do,

Michael Keller
which is this whole story thing, is that now we’ve. Why are we telling you to do that? Because that’s the vision that our culture is saying will lead to the most amount of the least amount of wars and religious fights of the pre-modern people. Because hey, everybody’s doing it their version. But what we don’t realize is we’re still weaponizing and still doing the same thing.

Christopher Watkin
Yes, and I think people who are better at sociology than I am could probably unpick that even further and say there are other incentives at play. That there are groups, interest groups in society that have an interest in you doing you for for example, it allows them to sell more products to more people. Just just a very basic example. So there’s there’s often incentives baked into these narratives that are not obvious on the surface. Well, and

Michael Keller
to be clear, it’s okay to one in a narrative. It’s the longing to have. Sorry, it’s it’s it’s okay to have want an identity and need an identity. I think there’s something very human about that. It’s is the way we’re going about it the the way that will complete us and not do injury to ourselves and others. And I think there’s a lot of evidence showing that our version is not doing such a great. I’m not saying the pre-modern version did a better job, which then you know I think pushes the narrative, no pun intended, forward to well, what would be a better way to do identity?

Christopher Watkin
And you want a story of identity that’s honest, don’t you? That that’s not trying to do one thing when it’s actually doing another, and I think the danger that we’re circling around in this conversation, or the anxiety that we have, is look the is the you do you story or whatever slogan you want to put in that box. Is it actually what it seems like? It is it selling one thing and then there’s a bit of a bait and switch, and it’s actually doing another thing, and I think whatever stories we want to run our lives, we would be very uncomfortable if those weren’t honest stories doing what they actually say they’re doing, rather than selling as one thing and actually you you go home with a different thing.

Michael Keller
Yeah,

Christopher Watkin
I’d I’d love to come back to this morality story that that you were talking about a moment ago, because it seems to me that the way you present that in the book is very similar, actually, to this tension at the heart of the identity story. So morality is is saying two things to us at once. Morals are socially constructed, however you want to put that-that you are-you have the right to say what is good and bad in your own world, and also, justice is morally obligatory. We will come down on you like a ton of bricks if you end up somewhere that that we don’t like, whoever the we is. And I think that shows us something really precious to understand about us as human beings, perhaps. See what you think of this. We we don’t like moral absolutes. There’s something that makes us uncomfortable in in the presence of moral absolutes. But we also really really want them, and I wonder what that shows us about us as human beings. Why? Why do we find it so difficult to live without moral absolutes? But why do we find them so objectionable?

Michael Keller
Yeah, and I think I I start with that chapter with going on a walk with one of my neighbors, and and he was saying like he knows I’m a pastor, and so he’s like, “Hey, I love going to walk with you. Just don’t, don’t proselytize me. And I was like, “Wait a second, that’s not by you saying don’t proselytizing me. You’re proselytizing me. You’re you’re actually that you’re still. Why does your way get to win and and mine doesn’t? I think, and again, this is where the power narrative interacts as well. But I think it’s so fascinating that the minute you say, “Hey, there’s no such thing as absolutes, that’s an absolute. The minute you say, “There’s no such thing as a morality, that is a moral statement. I I think, Chris, I’d love to hear your thoughts. But I think the problem is that we don’t we don’t realize that every. Tell me if I’m wrong about this. I feel like most of our phrases are moral statements, and we don’t realize that they are. Even a benign statement of “I like socks, that’s a moral statement because you’re making a statement about materialism. And now that I know we’re getting a little nerdy on this, but if our statements are moral, then there is a right and wrong, and we can’t live without them. But we can’t live with them because we history shows whenever you hold a right and wrong, you tend to abuse. You tend to hit. You know, think you’re right, they’re wrong, and let’s have a war about

Christopher Watkin
it. If part of the problem is another related narrative, which is that the narrative that we’ve told ourselves about freedom,

Speaker 1
which

Christopher Watkin
is the the strange idea that in order to be free, I need to be radically unconstrained. Every everything that. That constrains me in one way or another is an enemy to my freedom, yeah. And we see moral absolutes as constraints, and therefore we see them as a threat to our freedom. Yeah. Whereas that’s a very culturally odd and quite specific way to think of constraints, and you know, again, your your dad was really brilliant about this in terms of, you know, if I want to be a a great piano player, say, and have the freedom to improvise on the piano, then I’m going to need to constrain myself quite severely over a number of years to do the practice, and the the fruit of that is this glorious freedom. And so, constraint and freedom are not warring against each other; they’re actually collaborating there. And if if we could put this freedom narrative on the table, and look at the way we think of constraints, and think that through a little bit more consciously. We we might come to see that moral absolutes are not the the you know the boogeymen. Yeah,

Christopher Watkin
we sort of assume they are, but because any constraint on me must necessarily be a threat to my self expression and to my feet.

Michael Keller
Yeah, yeah. I think in the book that chapter on freedom, where the narrative is you’ll be happiest, you’ll have the most identity. You’ll the goal of life is to have freedom for the most amount of constraints. That’s only looking at freedom from things. It’s not. It doesn’t really have a good understanding of freedom to what are you free to do? And you already said it, Chris. That really to do anything with any kind of skill, or I was just thinking as you were talking. If I want freedom from the cares of the world, I need to have enough money in my bank account to retire. How do I do that? To bind myself to make the money to do that, all freedoms for or from can only be achieved with freedoms to something. Getting a skill, getting a you know sport, memorizing anything. It’s always a constraint, and I think Dad did it well when he says that if that’s true, if all reality always has some constraints, and I think the example I used just to make it personal was: listen, if I want to eat whatever I want, I can have that freedom, but it will bind me to an early death because that’s just you can’t have freedom from all things. There’s still you’re still binding yourself, so the. real question is not how do you have freedom from all things. The real question is is what constraints will bring the most amount of freedom in your life. If you can’t get away from all constraints, there’s always some. Then which constraints are the most freeing constraints to put you under? I think that’s the better question that the book tries to answer,

Christopher Watkin
yeah. And if you think about some of life’s constraints, I think it really brings that into focus. Like love is incredibly constraining, isn’t it? How inconvenient to have all your passions and thoughts directed towards another person. How how much that limits you in terms of your life capacities, and yet you speak to someone in love, and they say, “What are you talking about? This is brilliant! I feel the most alive I’ve ever felt. Completely, sort of devoted to this other person. This isn’t constraint. This isn’t miserable incarceration. You know, this is life. I want more of this, and so rewiring our sense of what how constraints play out in our lives, I think would be would be really key. You

Michael Keller
actually point out in the book we talk about how there are people that point out that if you want love, you have to bind yourself. Like if you want absolute freedom, then you can’t have any restriction. That means nobody has a say in your life. You’ll never have love, and this is why there might be some, you know, loneliness and things like skyrocketing in in our our culture. Because by definition, love takes binding yourself to someone else and them binding themselves to you. By definition, restricts you from getting to do anything and everything that you ever wanted to do, but but by that in that restriction, there is a bigger beauty and wonder and power possible, and that’s where the the tension is. Back to that that term, like we we want the love, but we also want the freedom. But we you can’t have the freedom and the love, and and we talk about that.

Christopher Watkin
It’s another one of these tensions, isn’t it? All these narratives have these fundamental tensions at the heart of them, where that they’re sold to us as these neat sort of simple stories, but but they’re actually. In intention with each other, inside each other, a lot of the time. I’d love to talk about another narrative that you discuss in the book, that the power narrative, and the way that you set this up is that the the world is divided into oppressors and oppressed and allies today. You also say almost no one identifies as an oppressor. No one’s saying, “Oh, I’m the oppressor over here. Look at me, which is ironic and problematic. But I wonder whether this is a recent narrative, because this language of oppressor and oppressor seems quite recent in in culture, doesn’t it? Is this a recent story, or is it tapping into older patterns? Do you think?

Michael Keller
Yeah, it’s a great question, Chris, and I would love to hear your thoughts on this. From Dad’s notes, when he comment, when he was talking about this narrative, he actually said, “I remember him saying this. He said that the power narrative is probably the most recent. It’s the youngest narrative out of all of them. Whereas you could, he can see identity and freedom in other places. He says this is more situated in 20th-century continental philosophy, like Nietzsche and Foucault, who said, “Hey, you have to have a will to power here, and everything’s about power. But I don’t know. What do you think, Chris?

Christopher Watkin
That’s a really interesting question, isn’t it? I think there is something that there is a watershed with Nietzsche, but I I wonder whether there’s also an undercurrent, a very old cultural undercurrent that that’s being tapped into here. My mind is taken to to Rome, to the ancient Roman Empire, and it seems to me that that’s a society that that’s very focused on power and how power flows between people and who has power. Power

Michael Keller
supports Sparta, you know, Sparta. Or Sparta,

Christopher Watkin
yeah, absolutely, or Sparta. And then even beyond that, if you think of the Genesis three narrative, you know what’s going on there? It’s a a battle to frame who is the oppressed and who is the oppressor. So the serpent comes to Eve and says essentially, “Look, you’re the oppressed here, and God is your oppressor. He doesn’t want you to be like him. He’s actually a bit scared of you. I’m the ally. This is your moment to spring the trap and throw off the shackles of your oppression.

Michael Keller
Yeah, and

Christopher Watkin
so there’s this ever since the fall. There’s this dynamic: who’s being oppressed by whom, and how is liberation achieved, and different ways of framing that. But I I think that there is something different about the way in which that plays itself out in our society post Nietzsche as well.

Michael Keller
Yeah, you know, I hadn’t thought of that. I mean, because it is in in some ways it’s youngest because it’s younger because of Nietzsche, Foucault, and in our secular culture now. But you went back to Genesis, but I my mind went to like Amos and Micah and Isaiah one, you know, correct oppression, defend the fatherless. So there’s definitely conversation in the Bible all over the place about unmasking systems and caring about justice. It’s it’s it’s all over there. The whole Exodus narrative is the original narrative of liberation. I think when I was doing my sermon series on that, I remember asking you for references, and you had some great books that had that that you know critiqued the power narrative, but from the the excess view. So yeah, it’s it’s it’s there. I think that it it does feel slightly different when culture. Everyone is saying everything else out there is just a power move. There’s no way to have forgiveness and repentance because that’s just a power move. There’s no way to actually talk through our differences and get to. You could argue the American system was designed for compromise and you know people coming together, but in this narrative, you can’t because any compromise is actually just them, their power over your power. It’s always the powerful versus the powerless, and the strong eat the weak. And you have everything is about. Ironically, there’s such moral language about this narrative, even though that’s one of the downfalls of the power narrative. If you say everything is a power move, that’s a power move to say everything’s a power move. So why should we listen to the the power narrative if that’s just another power move? I mean, this is where it kind of eats itself and falls away, but it’s it’s still there. You’re right, and I hadn’t thought about how old it is. Really, that’s a good point.

Christopher Watkin
As you’re saying, you know, lo and behold, there’s a tension at the heart of this narrative as well, which is, as as you beautifully just put it, not only the strong eat the weak, but the power narrative eats itself. Like, if this is really true, you should be very skeptical of it, because what is. Trying to do to

Michael Keller
you? Yes, just I actually brought that up in the book. I think I can’t remember, but in high school I was a big Rage Against the Machine fan, and it was all about the you know the the powers that be that are trying to get you. And then I then they signed this huge contract with Sony, and I was like, wait a second, you were talking about how badly now I feel like how am I not being manipulated to rage against the machine if rage against the machine is part of the machine? And I had this big crisis of like it was one of the it was one of the things I remembered in my own journey of what’s the point of life and what am I here and all those kind of things. But yeah,

Christopher Watkin
yes,

Michael Keller
they’re

Christopher Watkin
rage against the rage against the machine at that point. Which,

Michael Keller
but then, but and I started doing that, but then I realized I was still being I was still being controlled. So that’s when I moved on to drugs and alcohol, and that’s what honestly, not great either because that was escapism, and then and then it was asking bigger questions that eventually came back to to faith. It’s great.

Christopher Watkin
I think this is the time where we need to go to faith. So we’ve set out some of these questions, and at the heart of each of them is a paradox or a tension that that we can’t get out of, like you do you, but hold on, am I really doing me? It’s everything is power, but yeah, why are you telling me that? And so there’s there’s this this wall that you hit up against in all of these narratives when you start digging beneath the surface, which is, is this story really what it seems, or what’s really going on here, and I want to try and break that circle, if we can, with a biblical sort of intervention. And let’s let’s stick with power for a moment. You’ve already mentioned the ideas of forgiveness and repentance, and and in the book you also talk about redemption in relation to power, how do these ideas destabilize, disrupt, rewire the power narrative?

Michael Keller
I think that that you have an older view of just saying, “Hey, there’s no problem for authorities to have power; let them have it. Then you have the newer view of saying, “All power is bad, you’re not supposed to have it, and we need to disempower the powerful. And I, what I find biblically fascinating when you look at Jesus, and you look at the Bible’s use of power, is it doesn’t ignore it and say, “Hey, power is all. There’s nothing here. Just let the powerful have the power. And it doesn’t say, “Hey, all. power is bad. Get rid of all power. Which you find with Jesus in John chapter 13. There’s this great phrase in the NIV that says, as he’s contemplating how all power and reality has been given to him, the the Greek word is the the word gar, and says so. He gets up from the table, takes off his cloak, and begins to wash the disciples’ feet. And I just love that imagery of the moment when he most is contemplating and knows that everything is his. He gets up and stewards it, and I think that’s the best answer I’ve seen of power. It’s not everybody has some power, even the weakest of us. What do we do with it? Are we stewarding it for others? And the Christian faith says, when the core of reality is a God who gives, who takes His power and stewards it for you, that lets you now take your power and steward it for others. That’s the answer to power. It it it it doesn’t fix all things all at once, but it if a world increasingly becomes stewards of power, it the systems, the individual, the the collective, all that starts getting changed and different. So I think there’s a beautiful. We try to go through each one of the narratives to show how there’s some truth in the power narrative, the powerful do oppress the the powerless, but the Christian answered surprisingly completes in a different way than how we’ve ever even conceived of it.

Christopher Watkin
Yes, the supremely powerful one becomes powerless, so that he can use his power to raise up the powerless.

Michael Keller
Yeah, amen.

Christopher Watkin
It doesn’t. It doesn’t fit the power story. Like you, you don’t do that. It breaks. Is is this the right language to use, Michael? It breaks the narrative. Do you think?

Michael Keller
Yeah, breaks the bonds of it. I mean, the power narrative can unmask. It can diagnose the disease, but it has no. Sure, and so it like I like the word complete because I I think so often in the a lot of folks think Christians are always about everything about the world is wrong. I think a lot of these stories have seeds and aspects that are correct, but I think it yeah I think it breaks the power of the old narrative and completes it into the new.

Christopher Watkin
So, how does the gospel story complete the narrative, according to which the powerful oppress the powerless, and there are oppressors and oppressed? Because some people hearing that will think surely that completing that would just mean that the the all powerful oppresses the weak. Like we don’t want that story completed, do we? So just unpack this term completion. What? How does the gospel complete these stories?

Michael Keller
If the heart of hearts of the of the the power narrative is for justice, for actually the wrongs righted, for power to be used in the right way, it completes it because the upside down kingdom of of Jesus, who is the one who has all power, but then gives it up to love and serve others, and then if his followers are doing the same, if the core of Christianity is a man who dies for his enemies, and you put him at the core of your life. You start dying for your enemies. I think that’s the good that comes out of that, and the transformation and the justice that will come out of that would be powerful

Christopher Watkin
to kind of face. Yes, so it’s not just completing it in the sense of a bigger version of the story as it’s already told in our society. It’s sort of a completely turned inside out story of power, like a story of power like you never heard it told before, sort of thing.

Speaker 1
Yeah.

Michael Keller
Well, I read this book once about the diagonalization of of power and this friend of mine named Doctor Chris Watkins talks about this. I mean, you did a great job in that book, Biblical Critical Theory, where you showed how it it it doesn’t fit into any world. It kind of comes and takes the best elements of all the one, all the sides, and combines it in a new and radical way. And I think I think you did that from from a postulate point of view, and I and I think this book is trying to do it from a narrative story point of view.

Christopher Watkin
And the narrative perspective is so incredibly powerful, isn’t it? Because our

Michael Keller
imaginations, because we’re story we’re story based people.

Christopher Watkin
There were three words in the book that stood out to me more than any other three, and I’m not sure that you’d be able to guess them, but they they just leapt.

Michael Keller
I’m so interested your thoughts on this.

Christopher Watkin
They leapt off the page at me. At one point, you’re talking about the uniqueness of Christianity among these stories, and it’s sort of a throwaway phrase in the middle of a sentence. But you say, for Christianity, something like this: beauty is real, and I had to stop at that point. And I found that such an incredibly profound insight, and also incredibly exciting as well. And so, I just love to talk about that a little bit with you. When when you write, the difference of Christianity is that for the Christian story, beauty is real.

Michael Keller
Yeah.

Christopher Watkin
What What are you thinking there? What What are you getting at?

Michael Keller
Well, I’m was going through my head was all the naturalists that say it’s just beauty is just the way to pass your genes on to the next generation, and I’m thinking of all the metaphysical reasons for why beauty is not actually real. It’s just it’s a skill learned. It’s it’s it’s a cultural phenomenon. It’s it’s a sociological thing, and I can’t quite remember the context of writing that. But I do know that I have in my head my dad always talking. I’m going to tear up thinking about this, my dad always had this phrase about my mom: “Praise for the praiseworthy, and that there’s something about when you see something beautiful, you can’t help but not praise and and clap. That’s why we stand and appreciate when you really see beauty. Real beauty elicits a response. It moves us, and if the gospel account is true, and Jesus was raised from the dead, and that means you do, you one day will too, and which means my Father will be one day too. The only thing left. Praise-it’s real, because praise and beauty are are-they’re not the same thing, but they are-they’re in dialog with each other, and so is what wonder and awe and being able to say it’s real. It reminds me of the the conversation between Tolkien and C.S. Lewis. It’s it’s this it’s the story that actually completes all the other stories, and it’s it’s the true story behind it. And if that’s real, then changes how we live. It changes how we act. It changes our hopes. Changes everything.

Speaker 1
Amen. And and it appears to me that the Christian story,

Christopher Watkin
the true Christian story, is a story that beckons you into a reality that

Speaker 1
is

Christopher Watkin
unparalleled, as as far as I my own experience goes. That all these other stories are very good at explaining away the things around us. As you were saying before, forgiveness is really a power game or whatever. This is really that, and it’s Genesis three again, isn’t it? Did God really say?

Michael Keller
Yes. Is is is

Christopher Watkin
there a reality here? I’m not sure. It’s quite as simple as that.

Michael Keller
Yeah,

Christopher Watkin
but but the Christian story has at its heart, and I love that beautiful phrase, “Praise for the praise worthy. It has a worthiness, which is probably another way of talking about a reality. Like beauty,

Michael Keller
yeah,

Christopher Watkin
yeah, is real. There is a worthiness out there in terms of beauty, and this I’m expressing this clumsily, but I’m trying to get at something that I think is really fundamental and really important in today’s society with our meaning crisis and loneliness and so forth. Like beauty is real, truth is real. Yeah, you are real. Destiny is real. Progress is real, and so forth. And to to inhabit that reality is to be invited into an experience of praise and awe and worship, and fundamentally of meaningfulness. Like this is a world dripping with meaning. If beauty is really real, and if truth is really real, and if you are really real, you know, and if God is really real, my goodness, you’ve got as much meaning as you can cope with, and then, you know, gallons more besides, and it’s a there’s a worthiness, therefore, about this Christian story compared to these other narratives that we might live our lives by, because it brings us, confronts us, you know, face to face with the real, and it doesn’t try to explain those things away. That there is beauty, actually, it’s not just chemicals. It’s not just you being manipulated. It’s not just ideology, and there’s something. I don’t know how you feel about that, but when I read those words in the book, I thought this is intoxicating. I want to, even if this story were not true, and I believe that it is. This is the story that I’d want. The story in which beauty is real. Give me that. Not

Michael Keller
reminds me of Sam saying that you know is everything sad going to become untrue, and you know hearing you talk, Chris. I think this gets back to what I don’t know. I assume that our listeners are the whole range on the faith spectrum, from believers to not to everything in between, and for those who are questioning, like, okay, what what do I believe and why do I believe it? I think you I think you owe it to yourself to put yourself in a story that explains your experiences to the better than any other story out there. And since I think we actually do live as if beauty is real, this is actually a story that that fits that. The other stories out there: naturalism, secularism, Buddhism, so so many other isms don’t treat beauty as real. And I I think you have to really ask yourself what what do I hold and why do I hold it? And I remember doing a sermon recently, a couple weeks ago, where it says that I was trying to address like just it sounds too good to be true. It just it doesn’t feel real because it just it can’t be true because it’s too good to be true. And I think this is where we have to say Christian hope is not pure optimism. It’s it’s grounded in a historical event that either did or didn’t happen. But if it did, this is why Paul says we rejoice in hope, because it’s it’s not a hope in the Bible is not a possibility; it’s an assurity that is still coming to fruition, and I think that that’s. What the Christian gets to sit in, so I spend a lot of time going. If it was just pure like fantasful optimism, sure, then you can be skeptical. But it’s not. It’s it’s a historical reality that people have changed their lives over, and you have to you have to do the work to kind of hold it as true and make it your story or not.

Christopher Watkin
Absolutely, yeah. History is real. Again, we live in a real reality.

Michael Keller
But Chris, you saying that like, are you worried that there’s any listeners going? Well, of course, history is real. I know history. What do you mean by, what do you mean by that?

Christopher Watkin
I, I think, what I mean, is that there’s a tendency to. Well, we live in quite a cynical society, and I include myself in that, and we’re always trying to search for what’s really going on under the way that things appear, and I think we carry that over into the way we view the world. So, if something is beautiful, it it can’t really be beautiful. I I must be conditioned in in some sort of way to that that there must be a proper explanation, which is a way of explaining away beauty. I I can’t just sit with beauty, or if I do, there’s something sort of vaguely naive about me. And and it’s the Genesis three idea again, isn’t it? Don’t don’t believe what you have been told, and I think it’s probably I’m I’m saying more about myself as a an academic in an arts faculty, perhaps than I am about other people. But you’re sort of you’re trained to be skeptical of everything, and often for good reason. But a story that is true, that says that beauty is true, but then backs it up with a metaphysics. In other words, an understanding of reality that that can produce its receipts that that can show you why beauty is true. That it’s not just a nice idea and it’s not just a naive idea, but given the way that the universe actually is, you must admit that beauty is true. I just find endlessly intoxicating. Yeah, it’s the anti. It’s like if if cynicism is the acid that dissolves everything. This is the alkaline that neutralizes that acid. And as you say, I I want beauty to be true because I I don’t want to be in a universe where the meaning that we think is out there is just a meaning that we’ve chosen to sort of force on the universe. That that seems to me a very shriveled, a very contingent, a very dangerous universe. Given the sorts of meanings that we want to force on it, I I want to be. I don’t know if this is just me in a universe where beauty is true, and I can look at something that’s beautiful, and and you know, in that beautiful face that that your dad used, I can praise the praiseworthy. I want something to be praiseworthy out there, please. And if not, I don’t know that there’s a lot that my life can mean. Goodness, I get a metaphysical manner, but I’m trying to I’m trying to think out loud as to why I want beauty to be true, and I think it’s I want something to be praiseworthy. Otherwise, what’s the point? What do you think?

Michael Keller
Well, I love you. I loved make making you as an academic. I loved hearing that from you because you’re you’re getting it like not just I want it to be true, your experiences, the way we live our lives is as if it is, and why is that? It’s because of the story that we’ve been telling ourselves, but it’s incomplete if you don’t have the root or foundation that you can put it in, and the Christian story is compelling because it does with it, with the historicity of it, the the event nature of it, and sure, every individual has to still say, but will I apply it to myself or not? And I think there’s more there, but yeah, it gets back to like something isn’t true just because you say it is. You can’t just say beauty is true. Beauty is real. Okay, there it then it is. My kids play make believe all the time. It doesn’t make it real. So when you make that statement, what are you rooting it in? The Christian worldview has a very compelling story, and it’s enough. What I did in the book to. Me through the grief and the death and the and the the heartache that I that I had to go through.

Christopher Watkin
Absolutely, and

Michael Keller
I think everybody. I think that’s

Christopher Watkin
yes, yes. Sooner or later, and I think that’s that’s true, isn’t it? It’s it’s no good convincing yourself that beauty is true if deep down you know it isn’t, and you are vulnerable to the first argument that’s going to come along, and just so say the emperor’s got no clothes. But but that’s why the Christian story is so brilliant, isn’t it? That over 2000 years, the the deepest philosophical reflections have been thrown at this story, and and it’s produced its receipts. No, beauty is actually true, and I can go toe to toe with whatever argument you want to throw at me, because this is a a view of the world that makes sense, and can explain itself coherently,

Speaker 1
and that also comes to the conclusion that beauty is true, and that’s that’s the power. And that’s

Michael Keller
actually why I I loved what we try to say is that this doesn’t eradicate the stories of our culture. This actually fulfills them and completes them, and points you to something better than it’s actually what you always had wanted. That each one was saying you wanted an identity. Here’s an identity. You wanted real freedom. It’s freedom bound to him. You wanted real morality and power, and and that that doesn’t oppress and it doesn’t doesn’t hurt, but actually changes. And what’s beautiful about the Christian story is it it doesn’t say what we, what’s been moving our imaginations for decades, depending how long you’ve lived in this world, it doesn’t say none of it is real. It says it’s actually more real found here, and and look how it’s actually completed. And these things that were intention that you didn’t know how to hold all together, finally does like that like a missing jigsaw piece that you’ve been trying to drive a car without the steering wheel-it’s fine being given back to you. It’s-I think that’s the idea behind it.

Christopher Watkin
It-it’s that brilliant image of C.S. Lewis’s, isn’t it? You-you’ve been making mud pies in the slum, and there’s a certain satisfaction in that, and you might have found some some some pleasure and some fulfillment in that, but the the real experience is the holiday at the beach, and if you can stop making mud pies for long enough, let me take you to the beach. And and it’s one Corinthians one as well, isn’t it? Like the Greek wisdom and the Jewish demand for miraculous signs, they’re not nothing. Like the the Greeks are finding a certain amount of insight in their wisdom, but it’s not, you know, to use the language of this conversation, it’s not real wisdom with all the deep resonance of that word “real. And Paul is saying God’s foolishness is the real wisdom, and I know that sounds so weird to you, but if you want the reality of the thing that you’re grasping for but can’t get hold of, then you need to look at the cross, which of course to you is foolishness and a stumbling block. But but actually, that’s real wisdom and that’s real power right there at the cross. I wonder if we could, as we draw towards a close in this conversation, just talk about the way in which Christians can cultivate these true stories and lean into these true stories, and perhaps disengage a little bit from the the false stories or the incomplete stories that are in our culture. I loved at one point you talked about the importance of Christian community for doing this and the the local church as the place where this happens. I’d I’d love you just to unpack that a little bit. Why are churches so crucial in this whole idea of cultural narrative?

Michael Keller
You know, it goes back to I was thinking about this in my tradition, Matthew 18. You know, how do you do reconciliation between people inside the church, Christians, and it says if you have something against your brother, you’re supposed to go and bring someone else with you. So first, supposed to go by yourself, and the second thing you’re supposed to do. If they won’t listen to you, then bring someone else. What people don’t realize, they always think, “Oh, bringing someone else is so that somebody you have backup to make your argument, which is partly true, but it’s also so that that other person can talk you out of it if you’re the one who’s way off. People don’t ever think of it that way. That actually the church is beautiful because we always have a sense of reality of how things are, but we know through our just because we have this sense impression doesn’t mean it really is true. So there’s a huge role for the community of the body. Of believers to check yourself and say, “Hey, I feel this. I think this. This is how I. But am I off? And get the the views of others. Doesn’t mean they’re right, by the way, because they could be off too. But you would hope collectively, you know, Christians from all different backgrounds with different experiences, you would hope that we be able to help each other, and and I think we can because we shouldn’t be pointing to ourselves. We should be pointing to to Him and Jesus when He’s done. So I I think what I would start with is for Christians that I when you have an emotion, when you have a a sadness and anger, I would start with instead of trying to manage it, you know, conceal don’t feel or push it down. Instead of doing that, I would trace it. I think I would ask, what’s the story behind this story? Why am I angry? Why? What’s at stake here? What’s what what what do I think is at risk? And then bring what you find to the gospel and and and process it with that and say you know because one one emotion processed before Christ is worth 100 sermons that you could possibly listen to you know you got to ask each feel because each feeling is probably connected to a story, and each story has a promise. You have to say, “What is the promise, and does it deliver? You actually brought this up earlier. What’s the promise that this thing is saying, and does it deliver? And I think just being curious and asking questions, knowing it’s safe, doing that, doing that homework for yourself, but then giving your friends and Christian community space to do that for you, I think, could go a long way. I don’t know. What what do you think?

Christopher Watkin
Well, I I think that’s a wonderful piece of advice for for the Christian. I I never thought of it that way before. You take one emotion that you feel, trace it back to the gospel. That’s worth you know whatever 100 sermons are. That that is incredibly powerful as a nugget of insight into yourself and into the power of the gospel to reshape yourself. That that is really precious and worth holding on to. I I don’t want to say anything else other than that. That that just seemed incredibly rich to me. So, if if that’s what the the Christian might be encouraged to go away from this conversation, thinking I’m going to take one feeling that perhaps surprises me or that overwhelms me this week. I’m going to trace it back to the gospel. I’m going to try and understand what story I’m living in by analyzing why that feeling happened and what it how it relates to the gospel, what might be one thing that a more skeptical listener could potentially do this week? They might not be convinced of the Christian story. They they potentially might be convinced that they’re not actually enslaved to these cultural narratives. They’re living their own life. They’re living by common sense. What one thing might they think or or do this week that that might help them in their situation?

Michael Keller
I like that you said that a lot of folks might think they’re not living by these cultural narratives; they’re living by common sense. But that phrase right there, common sense, that’s still a cultural narrative, and I would just humbly ask those individuals to take whatever phrases you’re living by. Take a piece of paper, blank piece of paper, and say, “What are my phrases? It could be coming from your. I went on a walk with someone, and they said that you know their father used to say phrases growing up, and they just try to live by those phrases. You try to write them down because you might not even know what they all are. But once you write down whatever those phrases are, maybe it’s not the ones that I just that we’ve been talking about. But then ask yourself the two questions: which is, what’s the promise being made by this phrase, and does it actually deliver? What’s the promise, and does it deliver? And and don’t test it abstractly. Try to put it into your actual experiences. And what happens? Does it lead you to become the person you want to be? Is is it enough? Does it have a moral framework that can sustain you? Does it does the story give a fair explanation and and accounting of your experiences. That’s what I do. Just give give it the exam examination you would give any other claim. Like a lot of my non Christian friends say I can’t believe in the claims of Christianity, and I say that’s completely fair. What are the claims that you hold? No, I don’t. I’m like I don’t hold any claim. I’m like well let’s let’s be honest about this, and and let’s just compare and contrast. I’ll I’ll I’ll show you my claims, but we all have them, and I think it’s fair to say what’s the promise and does it deliver. But I would start there, and and I I hope we all do that.

Speaker 1
Yeah,

Christopher Watkin
and that exercise of self awareness. Is is just really helpful, isn’t it? If we’re living by claims that we don’t realize or can’t name, then we’re back to the propaganda. There’s a danger,

Michael Keller
and I think Christians, if they did this exercise, they might realize they. Oh, I thought my statement is I live for Christ, but actually, turns out I live for my job. I live for my family. I my identity is is how much approval I got today. Did my father say say he’s proud of me? Did you know? And and so find the phrases we’re living by, and and I think we owe it to all ourselves, no matter what we believe. I think that’s us. I think that that’s the hope would be to find the stories that we’re living by, and are they enough?

Christopher Watkin
And self knowledge is often painful, isn’t it? I I don’t think I would find it comfortable to know the stories that I’m living by, but that’s where the gospel really comes into its own and shines, because we we right at the heart of the Christian story is repentance and forgiveness and redemption and not having our failings follow us around like a an accusing advocate for the rest of our lives, and so self knowledge for the Christian needn’t be crushing. Yeah. Whereas I think if if I didn’t have a God who loved me despite who I am, that level of self knowledge, I I I don’t know that I’d want it actually.

Michael Keller
That’s a really good point, but it also shows you the reason why we don’t want to do these things is it’s not comfortable. But that’s why sometimes the best places where when we do do them is in pain. It’s in suffering. Like for my story, I literally in the book I don’t I wouldn’t come to these these things unless I was really hurting. And sometimes that’s the those that’s the grounds and the spaces where we can most look. Because if I’m not hurting, I’m I’m I’m ignoring. Eat, drink, and be merry. You know, or there’s other things to do. But it’s it’s in the pain moments where the God might be moving in our hearts. At least that that was the case for me.

Christopher Watkin
It is a very poignant and very apposite moment, I think, on which to to draw this conversation to a close. Michael, it’s been an absolute privilege speaking with you about these things. I’ve learnt a lot in the conversation. I learnt a lot reading the book, and I will take these insights hopefully into the coming weeks. Do pray for me, and I pray that our listeners and our viewers might be able to do the same. Thank you so much for this conversation.

Michael Keller
Thanks for letting me be here. It’s great. Appreciate it.