Finding Meaning in Our Daily Work (with Denise Daniels)

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0:00:00 – (Denise Daniels): And so if you want to really have the church be effectual, you want to know what are people doing all day? Like what are the activities? Who are the people they’re engaging with? What are the opportunities that they have? So I think just learning about your congregants in that way is really important. And then also helping people to make the connection between what scripture says and what they are doing in their day jobs or night jobs, whatever it might be.

0:00:26 – (Dan Doriani): Well, hello everybody. Welcome to this episode of youf Corner of the World. I’m Dan Dorian and Mark Vrogop, my co host. What do we do here, Mark?

0:00:36 – (Mark Vroegop): Well, Dan, we talk about the intersection of faith, work and God’s grace. And you’ve been doing this for a long time with some amazing conversation partners and it’s great to be together today for another conversation.

0:00:50 – (Dan Doriani): Yeah. And today we have Denise Daniels, who is the Hudson T. Harrison Chair of Entrepreneurship in the Department of Business and Economics at Wheaton University. It’s always good to hold a chair. Congratulations on that, Denise.

0:01:04 – (Denise Daniels): Thanks.

0:01:04 – (Dan Doriani): And your focus, I’ll let you say more about yourself, but your focus is on the role of faith and ethics in the workplace, theology of work as well. If you don’t know her. Denise is an accomplished teacher and scholar with long experience in Christian higher education. She teaches at Wheaton University and before that was at Seattle Pacific University where she was a professor and also a dean and a vice president.

0:01:29 – (Dan Doriani): And she’s written three books, actually, to be precise. This is important, what we’ll talk about. She’s co authored three books, 2019 Working in the Presence of God, Spiritual Practices for Everyday Work. We’ll talk about that at the very start. And then Religion in a changing workplace 2024 and 2025 are focused today to some degree, working for Better A New Approach to faith at Work. You’ve also received a major research grant, which is behind some of the work you have in this book. That’s terrific.

0:02:02 – (Dan Doriani): I’m just going to say you’re also a mother. We just met your husband a moment ago. You have a busy life and yet one of your emphases is rest. So what did we miss about who you are and what you’d like our listeners to know about you? And then we’ll talk about rest.

0:02:21 – (Denise Daniels): Thanks. So one quick clarification. It’s Wheaton College, not Wheaton University, so they would be happy for me to clarify that particular point. But yeah, I am busy, except that right now I’m on sabbatical, which is one of those wonderful academic seasons where you are not teaching for a semester. And so all of my colleagues just started yesterday and I am working from home, as you could tell, when my husband came in to provide some tech support right before this started up.

0:02:52 – (Denise Daniels): So the one other thing that you didn’t hit on in terms of my own life roles is I’m a grandma. So we’ve got four young adult kids and we have two grandchildren that we try to spend a lot of time with.

0:03:06 – (Dan Doriani): Well, Mark and I share your enthusiasm for the next generation, next round of progeny. We’re both grandfathers and so we’re happy to share that. And all of you young listeners, we’ll have somebody who’s 27 year old years old on the next episode. So, Denise, one of your interests is rest. And you’re a busy person. We are too. What do you want to say to us about rest? Why is that one of your interests? Why do all gifted people. This is a podcast largely for leaders.

0:03:37 – (Dan Doriani): Leaders are generally people with God given abilities. They’ve had training, mentors, experience, and they have energy. Why is it important for everybody to rest? And how do you rest?

0:03:49 – (Denise Daniels): Yeah. So I would tell you that a lot of my research is self referential in some way. And that is, you know, as I’m going through my career, I’m trying to figure out like, how do I live my life in a way that is faithful? And so the interest in faith and work and that intersection is really starting with my own questions. And that started at the very beginning of my career. I’ve been a faculty member for 31 years now.

0:04:13 – (Denise Daniels): But after the first couple of years I was newly married. My husband and I had two kids really quickly. And to tell you the truth, I was just exhausted and I felt like my faith has got to have something to say about my real life. And so then I was like, well, you know, that Sabbath idea, maybe there’s something there, maybe there’s something that I should be appropriating in a meaningful way. And so as a good academic, I started researching it.

0:04:37 – (Denise Daniels): And so early in my career you’ll see several academic papers that came out with the focused on some aspects of Sabbath. I actually worked colleagues of mine at the time at Seattle Pacific University and all three of us were interested in how do we live our lives in our rhythm that honors God, that also leans into our talents and our skills and the abilities that God’s given us and the roles that we have and how do we do this in a faithful way.

0:05:04 – (Denise Daniels): And so it started with this really setting aside one day a week where I am not going to work. And to be honest, it was kind of terrifying at first because I was sure that come Monday morning, I was just gonna be so not ready for whatever was on the agenda that day. Classes or meetings, whatever it was. And it was surprising. Like, for years, I was surprised come Monday that nobody could tell that I was underprepared or whatever.

0:05:32 – (Denise Daniels): And I started to realize that, you know, this isn’t actually hurting me in any way. In fact, it’s giving me a lot of life back. It’s giving me an opportunity to shift my focus and on this one day to things that are important in very different ways than my 9 to 5. Although my work wasn’t 9 to 5, but my work week kind of regular job.

0:05:53 – (Dan Doriani): Wow.

0:05:54 – (Mark Vroegop): So, Denise, did you find a particular point in time where rest became not just more comfortable, but it became part of your lifestyle? And it wasn’t a thing that had to be practiced intentionally. It became part of the rhythm of your life. How long did that take?

0:06:15 – (Denise Daniels): Probably a decade. I don’t know if that’s encouraging or not.

0:06:18 – (Dan Doriani): You’re really slow, but you encourage those of us who struggle. I’m still working on some issues for 25 years, so. Yeah, me too.

0:06:26 – (Denise Daniels): Yeah. I mean, I think after 10 years, it became really clear to me that this is a day that I just don’t work. There are plenty of times where there are moments where you feel like, oh, maybe I should just do this one thing on this day. Like, there’s a lot of temptations along those ways. And I don’t. I’m not a super legalistic person when it comes to this kind of thing. Somebody looking in on me would be like, well, isn’t that work? Or whatever. I’m sure that there’s ways that they could find me not living fully into what God’s intentions maybe would be.

0:06:57 – (Denise Daniels): But I would say after probably 10 years, it just became clear to me, to my family, to people around me, that this is a day that really is set aside for different things and in different ways.

0:07:08 – (Mark Vroegop): Wow, that’s so fascinating. And then in your research, did you find any generational differences or insight? For instance, you know, boomers versus Millennial, Gen Xers versus Millennial versus Gen Z. Any. Any insight there on the work balance, slash, rest conversation?

0:07:27 – (Denise Daniels): So, yeah, I mean, when I started this, this was probably the late 90s, so we didn’t have. I mean, we didn’t even have millennials in the workplace yet. Right. Like, this was a long time ago. And what I have seen over the past two and a half decades is that I think older people, and I would include boomers and also Gen Xers, and I’m a Gen Xer in this category. They tend towards more of it’s important to work, it’s important to be diligent, it’s important to put all your time in.

0:07:57 – (Denise Daniels): And millennials and gen zers are a little bit more like, well, wait a minute, I want to make sure that my life is a little bit more holistic. And so I think there’s maybe a more natural affinity in some ways for younger people to be attentive to some of these rhythms of work and rest. Now, that can go the other direction too. Like, there are errors on either end of the spectrum. You can work so hard that you’re not resting and not living into God’s purposes, but you can also rest so much that you’re not working.

0:08:25 – (Denise Daniels): And that can be a problem in a different kind of way. So, you know, there’s both ends of this continuum that are not, I think, in alignment with what God models for us and also what God has designed us for. But my error tends to be towards the work too much end. And so I need to make sure that those rhythms of rest are built in.

0:08:44 – (Dan Doriani): Yeah. Thank you. So there’s also another theme running through your work, and that is collaboration and a sort of a communal approach to things. And it doesn’t escape my attention that your books are co authored and I’ve co authored books and I’ve written solo. And co authoring in some ways is harder. And yet you seem to be committed to that. What do you gain from the communal side of writing with somebody? How does that make your work more effective, maybe more palatable? That is to say, you don’t have to do it yourself, crank it all out yourself. But it also connects. We’ll get to it next.

0:09:25 – (Dan Doriani): It connects to your desire to avoid individualism and work in general and have a more communal approach. But let’s talk about your desire to do research and writing with a partner.

0:09:36 – (Denise Daniels): Yeah. So I’ll tell you this. There’s a quick story from 1996. So again, a long time ago, but I was being interviewed for my very first academic job and one of my older who became a colleague, but one of the older gentlemen in the interview process was a little critical looking at my vita, which is a fancy academic word for resume, and noticing that all of my publications at that point were co authored. And he was like, are you really doing this work or is it somebody else? That you’re kind of riding on the coattails of.

0:10:09 – (Denise Daniels): And I said, you know, to be honest, that stings.

0:10:11 – (Dan Doriani): Oh, yeah, you were patient, I’m sure.

0:10:15 – (Denise Daniels): Well, I don’t know that he said it that directly, but that clearly was the subtext of the question. And my response was, you know, really, the truth is I like to work with other people, but also my work is better when I work with other people. And if that’s going to be a problem, then maybe I’m not the right person for this particular role. And so it apparently wasn’t a problem or not enough of a problem for them not to hire me.

0:10:36 – (Denise Daniels): But I think those two answers is that I work better because I enjoy it more when I’m working with somebody who can keep me energized, can keep me focused, but also the end product is better when I’m working with somebody else because they find the flaws in my thinking and vice versa. And so we can have these conversations, and it’s not just one person’s ideas. It’s. It’s already gone through some kind of a filter and some kind of an assessment process in the process.

0:11:03 – (Dan Doriani): Yeah. So, of course, I appreciate that deeply, Denise. I also want to make sure we have time to talk about the fact that Americans tend to be individualists in general. And when Mark and I talk to people about their work, we both notice that they think, well, I’m a Christian in my workplace if I share my faith, if I’m kind to my co workers, and if, at the end of the day, I make sure to set some money aside to give to causes I care about, my church and others.

0:11:30 – (Dan Doriani): And, hey, maybe back to Wesley years ago, earn as much as you can and give away as much as you can. And that’s what it means to be a Christian worker. We’re not opposed to any of that. We wholeheartedly endorse sharing our faith and treating our co workers well and being generous with our money. But we also believe there’s a lot more to it than that. Would you walk us through what your convictions are about? The need to see the systemic and communal aspects of work.

0:11:59 – (Denise Daniels): So, you know, what you’re picking up on are these very individualistic approaches to faith at work. And they’re good, they’re not bad. So I want to make sure that everything I say from here forward doesn’t undermine those things, because they are good and important. And it’s also important for us to recognize that we are embedded in structures and in systems that shape not only our own behaviors. But the behaviors of those around us, and sometimes those structures are not great.

0:12:25 – (Denise Daniels): Sometimes those structures lead us in directions that are kind of away from God’s intentions for us. And so I think for us. And what we were writing about, what Elaine and I were writing about in Working for Better was saying, look, individually, yes, we wanna make sure that we are honest at work. We wanna make sure that we are doing the right things personally. But we also wanna make sure that Christians attuned to the broader community and the broader structures and systems at play.

0:12:57 – (Denise Daniels): And in some ways this should not be a surprise for Christians. Like this should not be hard for Christians who come out of. You know, in scriptures, we see this constant attention to community, whether that’s the Israelite community in the Old Testament or the Christian community in the New Testament. We see the notion in, you know, Paul’s writings about the body of Christ and this idea that each of us individually is only gonna be able to do so much. We have to work collectively with other people in order to accomplish God’s purposes in the world.

0:13:29 – (Denise Daniels): And so not only should we recognize that there are structures in play, but that our role can only do so much and that we have to come alongside other people in order to make changes that are gonna be good.

0:13:39 – (Mark Vroegop): Yeah. So, Denise, in that context, someone’s in an organization and they’re interested in helping to create a culture where people can flourish. What do they do? Because individualism tends to be our bias. And we don’t think in a communal.

0:13:54 – (Dan Doriani): What would you suggest?

0:13:55 – (Mark Vroegop): How could they see that differently and take some action steps?

0:13:58 – (Denise Daniels): Yeah. And so again, when we come down to it, you can only do you. Right. Like you can only make individual actions. So the question then becomes, what kinds of individual actions can you make that could affect a larger, broader system or culture? And I think particularly for those who are in leadership roles, it’s important to first step back and say, what are some of the systems at play that maybe I’m not super attuned to because it’s just part of what I’m used to.

0:14:27 – (Denise Daniels): And so I think just pausing sometimes and wondering and asking about what are these systemic effects on individuals? What am I not seeing immediately? I also think it’s important for leaders to start thinking through what kinds of behaviors are they in exhibiting and what kinds of cultures does that do those behaviors create if everyone exhibited those behaviors? So if everyone does what I do, what kind of culture is going to result from that?

0:14:56 – (Denise Daniels): We talk in our, in our. One of our books about this, this notion of embodied Cultures of care, the idea whether that you can care for other people and that behavior of looking out for others has ripple effects, has impacts on others. And when that starts to become normalized in an organization that starts to create a system where people care for others instead of being cutthroat, instead of being competitive, instead of being exclusively kind of about me.

0:15:24 – (Denise Daniels): But stepping back to recognize what are the levers that maybe I haven’t been attentive to? What kinds of behaviors can I engage in that might have these cultural impacts? Recognizing the extent to which your organization might be shifting you away from behaviors that would be consistent with kind of a Christian ethic. Are there shortcuts that you’re being asked to engage in? Are you always honest? I think it’s really easy for us to make these kind of very small decisions along the way that slowly move us away from kind of an ideal and starting to be attuned to those very small behaviors becomes really important.

0:16:05 – (Dan Doriani): You’re prompting me to think of two things and neither one of them is on the list of questions, I told you that would be coming. But you know, I’ve been in organizations where the leader is always thankful, always grateful, always, always labeling the strengths of the people around them and it’s so constructive, it’s so healing, so positive. And also just twice in the last few hours, I’ve been talking to believers who had long term illnesses and you know, we were part of their friendship group or helping them out and it just, they said, it’s been so great to have the church taking care of us. Do you need anything? We don’t need anything because our church just so consistently takes care.

0:16:47 – (Dan Doriani): And now the system’s rolling. I mean, it’s not like, oh, what are we going to do to help these people? Our church has been doing this for 10 or 20 years and it’s almost, I say this in the positive sense, it’s almost thoughtless. Of course we’re doing this. Of course we’re going to help this woman whose husband has been gravely ill for two years.

0:17:05 – (Denise Daniels): Yeah. Because it has created that culture. And so what kinds of cultures are you a part of? And are they all directing the way that you would hope?

0:17:14 – (Dan Doriani): Yeah. Can I come back to individualism a little bit? And one of the things that I’ve noticed when I talk about faith and work in a public setting, in a church or conference, is that when I read Matthew 25 to them, I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty, you gave me something to drink, I was naked and you clothed me. I say to them, this means that if you have any role in bringing food to people, whether you’re a farmer or a trucker or you’re at the, you know, stocking shelves at the grocery store, anything you’re doing is part of that. And people are just astonished. They thought, oh, I thought I was feeding the hungry when I brought us a meal to a neighbor. Well, you are, but you’re doing that

0:17:57 – (Denise Daniels): more to it than that.

0:17:58 – (Dan Doriani): You’re doing that about ten times a year. If you work in the food industry, you’re serving people food. If you have any role as a plumber or a hydraulic engineer, anything. I’m just perpetually amazed at how people are amazed that I say such a thing, that their daily work is almost forgotten, that they’re doing these things. If they’re doing good work, 40 or 50 hours a week, that’s a statement on my part. But I want you and Mark to bounce off it any way you like.

0:18:26 – (Denise Daniels): Yeah, let me respond to it real quickly because one of the things that we found. And so I’m reflecting on this large scale research project that I conducted with my friend and colleague Elaine Howard Eklund. And we interviewed about 15,000 people. Sorry, we surveyed about 15,000 people and we interviewed about 315,000 interviews would be

0:18:45 – (Dan Doriani): a lot of interviews anyway.

0:18:48 – (Denise Daniels): In the course of that data collection, we found that people kind of talked about their work in one of two ways. They talked about it as either intrinsically meaningful or extrinsically meaningful. And what I mean by that is extrinsic is the work itself doesn’t really matter, but the work allows you to do other things. So when you were earlier kind of creating a laundry list of the individualistic kinds of behaviors that people engage in, you know, sharing the gospel at work or using the money that they get from work to do something good for their church, those are all extrinsic.

0:19:16 – (Denise Daniels): The work itself is not kind of the meaning meet there. And I don’t, again, I don’t want to denigrate that. I think extrinsic meaning is meaning. But I think when we ignore the intrinsic meaning, the kind of why the work itself matters, what is it about the tasks that you’re doing that impact other people for good? We really lose a lot. And I have people coming to me frequently asking, you know, essentially saying, I don’t really know. I don’t have a sense that my work is meaningful.

0:19:43 – (Denise Daniels): And, you know, one time I was giving a talk and I had somebody at the end ask me you know, how’s my work meaningful? And I said, well, what do you do? And he was a vice president at a bank. And I was like, are you kidding me? You know, banks give loans that allow companies to exist and that allow people to buy houses. And these are really important, meaningful kinds of activities that your work is allowing to occur in the world. So of course it’s meaningful.

0:20:11 – (Denise Daniels): But I think oftentimes people are not thinking through how is my work meaningful? And so helping people to kind of get those juices flowing, I think is really good.

0:20:22 – (Mark Vroegop): Denise, do you think there’s some connection between the lack of understanding of how people’s work is in fact good and what they hear on Sunday in terms of how the work is framed? Can you unpack that a little bit?

0:20:36 – (Denise Daniels): Yeah. So in addition to talking to, you know, 300 people, working folks, we also talked to about 50 pastors in the process of this research. And what we found was that the pastors told us really regularly, we talk about work all the time from the pulpit with our congregants, et cetera. And then we talked to their congregants, and they were like, no, I don’t think I’ve ever heard anybody talk about work from the pulpit.

0:21:00 – (Denise Daniels): So there’s clearly this disconnect of what people are hearing and what pastors think that they’re saying. And I don’t want to denigrate pastors in any way. In fact, I hope that they’re a large part of your audience who’s going to hear this. But I do think that pastors have an opportunity to think carefully about what they’re saying and how that’s going to be received by the people in the pews. So I think oftentimes people hear from their pastors, you know, it’s important that you work because then you could give money to the church. Well, that’s, again, a very extrinsic kind of activity.

0:21:32 – (Denise Daniels): And I think pastors don’t know oftentimes what it is that their congregants actually do. I mean, they might know a title, but what does that mean? What are those people actually engaging in day to day? And I think there’s a miss. There’s a disconnect. And I think pastors sometimes are afraid to ask questions because they’re afraid they’ll sound dumb. And meanwhile, the congregants are like, boy, I sure wish my pastor had a better understanding of my daily work life so that I could get some guidance about ways that I could really live out my faith in a meaningful way here.

0:22:01 – (Denise Daniels): And so I think there is a little bit of a, a mismatch or disconnect between those two groups.

0:22:06 – (Dan Doriani): You know, I’ve been a faith and work guy for a long time and so I, hey, I’m one of those pastors who talks about it all the time. In my own opinion. I do remember a day when I was. I used restaurant work as an illustration and a 50 year old successful man walked up to me in tears. He said, that is the first time I’ve ever heard restaurant work mentioned in a church building. Thank you for recognizing that I exist because everybody’s always talking about the military and teachers and doctors and whatever else, scientists and thank you for seeing me.

0:22:43 – (Dan Doriani): You say, and I agree with this. I’m guessing Mark will want to comment. I’m guessing he agrees too. It’s important to visit people in their workplace. So I went to an assembly line one time with somebody and I thought, oh, I’ve always heard about these. This is amazing. It’s not the way I pictured it. And I went into a metallurgical shop, you know, giant machines crushing and reshaping metal. And you just learn so much. And I’ll just say one other thing besides the fact that I learned a lot and got concrete.

0:23:15 – (Dan Doriani): I did have fear of misspeaking about people’s jobs. And so I recruited about 10 or 15 people in my church and said, hey, I’m going to use an illustration from your field. Please tell me how I messed it up. And you know, a lot of times they’re very gracious and said, no, you really nailed it. But I’d say at least half the time they said it was great. Thank you, Dan. But you want to change one thing so that you have credibility with us.

0:23:41 – (Dan Doriani): And they were so glad to do that and to help out. Not me, but the whole church that way.

0:23:47 – (Denise Daniels): Yeah. Dan, I love three things about what you just said. Number one, I love that you are going to people’s workplaces and learning about what they do. I think that sends such an important message signal that every person’s work is valuable. And number two, I love that you’re using examples in sermons. I think that makes a huge difference. And you’re the example of the restaurant worker who was in tears, I think exemplifies that. But then number three, that you’re asking folks for feedback about where to get it wrong allows you to be humble and to communicate. Look, I don’t know what everybody does and that’s okay. Like nobody can be expected to. So asking Those questions and not feeling dumb about it is really, really critical.

0:24:27 – (Mark Vroegop): So, Denise, if I’m a busy pastor and I hear you need to go meet with people in their marketplace or in their place of employment, make the case as to why, what’s the win in that particular activity? Knowing that it’s going to take time, energy, I feel a little insecure. What’s the win?

0:24:48 – (Denise Daniels): Yeah, I think you have to start thinking about what’s the purpose of the church. Right. And if the purpose of the church is to be the hands and feet of Jesus in the world, that doesn’t happen in your church building most of the time. That happens where people are working. And so if you want to really have the church be effectual, you want to know what are people doing all day? Like what are the activities, who are the people they’re engaging with, what are the opportunities that they have?

0:25:14 – (Denise Daniels): So I think just learning about your congregants in that way is really important. And then also helping people to make the connection between what scripture says and what they are doing in their day jobs or night jobs, whatever it might be, it really helps them to understand and kind of get their hands around what does my faith mean to me on a day to day basis. It’s not just this Sunday. I believe these things. I can give cognitive assent to some truths about who God is, but how do I live my life? What does that look like that’s helpful.

0:25:44 – (Dan Doriani): Yeah. Denise, this is really rich and there’s so many things in a good interview like this one. Thank you very much. I want to ask four questions simultaneously. You to answer them all together. I want to just hold up something from your most recent book, Working for better, page 34. Make sure that you’ve had a chance to say everything you want to say. It’s the ways of understanding work and it’s. I’m going to hold it up and Mark, Mark can see it and our people can see it.

0:26:12 – (Dan Doriani): It’s. It looks like that and it’s a grid and has extrinsic and intrinsic work. But it also has in the workplace and beyond the workplace. You’ve addressed that. But would you give us, just for the sake of people for whom these ideas are new, walk us through that for a minute. What are the most important points you want people to hear?

0:26:35 – (Denise Daniels): Yeah. So thank you for showing that grid. And as you said, there’s two dimensions. One dimension is intrinsic to the work versus extrinsic to the work. We’ve talked a little bit about that. Right. If the work that you’re doing is meaningful because of the tasks that you’re doing or because of the products that you’re producing that would be intrinsic. If the work that you’re doing is

0:26:53 – (Dan Doriani): teaching first graders to read, for example, it’s intrinsically valuable even if you make no money to give away.

0:27:00 – (Denise Daniels): And then it’s extrinsically meaningful if the context of the work allows you or the work itself allows you to do something that is meaningful, but it’s not the work itself. And so I’ll give you a quick example. In one of our interviews, we had a hotel housekeeper who was talking about. And actually, this interview I didn’t conduct because this woman spoke Spanish. And so we had somebody conduct the interview in Spanish. And so I. I was reading a translated transcription of the interview, and she was saying that her work was meaningful. And I expected her to say something like, my work is meaningful because as a hotel housekeeper, I can make rooms really nice and clean for people. And so when travelers are weary, they can rest in a nice place.

0:27:37 – (Denise Daniels): That would be a very intrinsic way of talking about her work. She didn’t talk about her work intrinsically. She talked about it extrinsically. And she said, my work is meaningful because with the money I make, I can buy my children’s shoes. And God wants my children to have shoes. And I was kind of ashamed almost reading this, because of course God wants her children to have shoes, and of course her job is meaningful in this particular way.

0:27:58 – (Denise Daniels): And I was so focused on the intrinsic side that I kind of lost sight of the importance and the value of the extrinsic. So both of them are important. And then the other dimension is, as you mentioned, within and beyond the workplace. And so is your work meaningful because of who you are engaging with in the workplace, or is it meaningful because of what your work does outside of or beyond the workplace? And so the hotel housekeeper example would be extrinsic and beyond the workplace.

0:28:27 – (Denise Daniels): You can think of extrinsic within the workplace as being somebody who is engaging with coworkers and sharing the faith with them or supporting them in some meaningful way. And then intrinsic within the workplace could be within you. So you feel like this is a good use of your talents and skills. The work itself is meaningful. And then beyond the workplace is the goods and services that you are meaningful making contribute to the world in a meaningful way.

0:28:54 – (Denise Daniels): So we talked to one guy who was a. He worked at a subway restaurant, and he said, oh, yeah, my work is super meaningful. In fact, I think about this when I think about the gospels and what God has called me to do when I do my work. And I’m thinking, really, Subway? And he’s like, yeah, because what I do is I. What Subway does is we have healthy food and we work all over the world in places where healthy food isn’t always accessible.

0:29:18 – (Denise Daniels): And we are feeding the world in this really meaningful way through this, through this company that I work for. And I was like, wow, that’s actually a pretty cool way of thinking about that work as contributing to the common good in the world. That very intrinsic and. But beyond, you know, it’s not just in the restaurant. It’s these people are now going out because they have healthy, nutritious food that they have access to.

0:29:42 – (Mark Vroegop): So. Denise, teaching college students, you know, at Wheaton College, my experience with present generation, back to the generational conversation, is an elevation in some of their minds, or maybe many or if not most of their minds, that it would be intrinsic. And within the workplace, that’s real work, like something that has clear value. And I actually can do it in the marketplace. That’s the ultimate work.

0:30:10 – (Mark Vroegop): And the other kinds of work would be seen as maybe not real work or not really valuable. Has that been your experience as well? Or maybe that just my limited experience with that kind of mindset?

0:30:25 – (Denise Daniels): I think it’s a yes. And so yes, I do think and part of this is kind of a developmental stage that most college students in the age range that they are tend to be kind of self focused. Like, what is God wanting me to do? What is my calling? What am I supposed to be engaging with? What are my skills and how do I use them in a meaningful way? Again, I don’t want to denigrate that. I think that’s a really important, important and good question to ask.

0:30:48 – (Denise Daniels): It’s just not the full question. So I think beyond that is how is what I am doing impacting other people for good? How is what I’m doing contributing to God’s purposes in a number of other ways? So, yeah, I do think that there is an element where they, they tend to be a little bit myopic. College students do, and that’s normal and fine and, you know, time will allow them to expand that perspective a little bit more.

0:31:14 – (Mark Vroegop): That’s helpful.

0:31:15 – (Dan Doriani): And I think we can. How do I want to put it? When we’re a little bit older, we see the value of something like talking to a woodworker. Maybe somebody’s making cabinets or tables or chairs. I mean, a good table or chair can last two or 300 years. And you know, you’re not just serving by making beautiful things with your hands. Now there could be people literally centuries later. Talk about extrinsic right in the external world. Serving the common good, which is one of the themes of your book, which I want to commend again one more time.

0:31:47 – (Dan Doriani): Working for Better just came out about a year ago, and a lot of good meat in that field. Maybe slightly injective position with your last point. Some people think that we’re so grateful that we’ve broken, and you try to do that, and you do do that in your book. With the sacred secular split, a pastor is really serving God, A missionary is serving God, et cetera. And of course, you know, physicians are too, and school teachers are. But I mean, a garbage truck driver, forget about it. You know, that’s. That’s secular work and, and marketing the latest IT product, it’s totally secular.

0:32:27 – (Dan Doriani): So we do battle against that. Everything’s truly, that’s good work, that is the honest and builds people up is sacred in a way. But there’s sort of a pushback coming now. And it’s goes like this. You know, you theologians, and I’m going to call you a theologian informally at least. You theologians are so bent on killing the sacred secular split, nobody wants to be a pastor anymore. You know, we’ve flattened things out so much that nobody has the sense that I should be willing to give up three years of my life to learn theology and go into this field where the pay might not be great and the hours might be erratic.

0:33:07 – (Dan Doriani): Do you want to help us out on that a little bit?

0:33:09 – (Denise Daniels): Well, I will tell you that I’m halfway through a little over halfway through a master’s in Biblical and Theological Studies at Wheaton College, because I think it’s really important to understand and learn the underlying theology in order to do the work that we do. I do have a PhD already, so it’s not like I need this master’s degree.

0:33:28 – (Dan Doriani): We’re talking to Dr. Denise Daniels.

0:33:32 – (Denise Daniels): But I do think that the theological underpinnings are important. And I’m in classes now with folks who are heading towards some kind of explicitly Christian ministry career path. And I’m so grateful for people who want to do that and whose calling is to do that, because again, getting back to that body metaphor that Paul gives us, you need all types, right? Like you need the garbage collectors and you need the pastors, and you might need those marketing folks, too. You know, all of these people have ways to contribute their own skills and talents to kind of effectuate the coming of God’s kingdom in this world.

0:34:12 – (Mark Vroegop): You know, Denise, I wonder if, just thinking about your grid, if because pastors tend to live in the intrinsic and within their work space, that I wonder if people in our churches, they don’t even hear about the extrinsic and external to the workplace as a category. And your framework is really creating some thoughts in my head about we may unintentionally be holding up the intrinsic and within as the ultimate kind of a thing.

0:34:47 – (Denise Daniels): From a spiritual standpoint, it’s a great question. I wonder if having pastors go to workplaces could help them kind of see that beyond the workplace for themselves. Right. Like, if their workplace is the church, then how is their job meaningful? Well, it’s the extent to which God’s purposes are carried out beyond the church itself. Right. And so how does that happen as they engage with people who are in other contexts?

0:35:13 – (Dan Doriani): I love that answer. That’s a good challenge. Can I move to another topic of yours? Comes up in a couple of your books. And this may be even of more interest to Mark than me, but I wrote this question, so I’m going to pose it and he can add to it. So your work, I’m going to say, gently pokes at people in certain ways. I think constructively pokes at people. And especially a couple times you address the issue that Christians sometimes can overdo the idea that they’re persecuted or silenced in the workplace.

0:35:45 – (Dan Doriani): You’ve done hardcore research on that, and you don’t deny that it happens at times. And the Christians are certainly silenced at times. But you do point out that in many parts of Western culture, Christians still do have a privileged position. And in fact, if Christian business leaders aren’t careful, they can actually make Muslims and Hindus and atheists and agnostics feel uncomfortable or feel that they have to be silenced, which somebody may say, well, good, let them be quiet.

0:36:17 – (Dan Doriani): But I think if we really wanted to to love the people around us, we want them to be able to voice their views, and maybe that’d be the most effective way of evangelism, if that’s your goal in the first place. But you adopt a position that could be called principled pluralism. And I would love for you to say a word about that. And I want Mark to feel free to add, because as the president of Gospel Coalition, of course we have a focus on North America, but there are chapters of Gospel Coalition all over the world, and there are guaranteed Christians who are absolutely persecuted. But start us off, and Mark may want to Add something.

0:36:53 – (Denise Daniels): Yeah. So I guess I’ll say two things real quickly. First, our data does show that Christians, and particularly evangelical Christians in North America, do report experiences of religious discrimination in the workplace at roughly 30%. In other words, 30% of our respondents said, yes, I’ve been discriminated against at some point because of my evangelical Christian faith. Compare that, though, with Jewish and Muslim respondents whose rates were double that.

0:37:20 – (Denise Daniels): So about 60% of those respondents said, hey, I’ve been discriminated against at work, and I have not gotten jobs or have been fired from jobs, I think, because of my religious identity. And so we make the case, you’re right, that there is a challenge with discrimination, but the issue of discrimination actually is more highlighted or more problematic among what we call minority religions in the US and then that leads to that second question or that second point, which is this notion of principled pluralism, which is our recommendation for how we engage with people who have different religious beliefs.

0:37:53 – (Denise Daniels): And I want to make sure that this doesn’t come across as this, like, kind of squishy, touchy feely, like, we can all be nice to each other and everyone has some beliefs, and that’s good. That’s not what principle pluralism is. It starts with principles, which is the idea that you understand your faith, you know what it is, you believe it, and you are articulate about it. So it starts with the principled component, but it understands that we live in a context that is pluralistic, and we encounter people who come with their own very strong, sometimes opinions and ideas and ideals about the way, you know, what is true about, you know, the

0:38:34 – (Mark Vroegop): what

0:38:34 – (Denise Daniels): is unseen, and also the ways that they should be living. And our advocacy is a principled, pluralistic approach, says we first see every person made in God’s image. And once we start with that foundation, if we can recognize every other as an image bearer of God, the next question is, how do we engage with image bearers of God? Well, we treat them with dignity and respect, and we might want to try to understand their perspective.

0:39:06 – (Denise Daniels): And that approach of understanding is not to say, you know, all truths are the same, or all beliefs are the same, all beliefs are true, or something like that. But that approach is to really fully listen to and understand that person as an image bearer and open up the possibility of relationship that might lead to a conversation that that ultimately may lead to salvation. But that is not the direct point of principled pluralism. You are not listening in order to convert.

0:39:34 – (Denise Daniels): You are listening in order to treat an image bearer with dignity and respect. And treat them the way that you would want to be treated. And so, you know, it gets back to, you know, Jesus admonition to love your neighbor as yourself. And so who are these neighbors that we may be experiencing and encountering in the workplace and how do we engage them?

0:39:53 – (Mark Vroegop): Denise, do you think there’s a particular strategy that is unique in light of principled pluralism for evangelism?

0:40:00 – (Denise Daniels): I think you have to start with understanding. And so I think it starts with trying to understand the other and inviting them to understand you. And as questions then naturally emerge from that engagement, I think it could lead to an opportunity for evangelism. But I also think that if you. You start with my goal is to evangelize, that that is actually going to be read by the other in a way that feels not respectful any more than we would want a Muslim coming to us and saying, you know, you need to recognize that, you know, there’s one God and Allah is his prophet. You know, I’m not going to affirm that statement, but I do want to understand why that person might have that belief set and have an understanding of who they think Jesus is.

0:40:48 – (Denise Daniels): And those things we can have curious conversations about. So I think having a curious mindset that is respectful of the other and really treats them with dignity is the approach that I would recommend.

0:41:02 – (Dan Doriani): Hey, Denise, we’re getting kind of close to the end, so we go to rapid fire questions. I have four for you. I’m not sure how many Mark has, but we’re gonna. I’m gonna. I’m gonna let an air horn off if so see if. Pretend you’re on a slow elevator, you know, seven floors. You tend to collaborate with women. You’re a woman in the workplace in position of leadership. What word would you have for my daughters who are, you know, 40ish now, or 35, or Mark’s daughter who’s.

0:41:36 – (Dan Doriani): I don’t know how old she is. I’ll say she’s 32 and starting to get in leadership positions. You mentioned a marine biologist named Krista. How would you. She’s sort of a test case of doing things. Well, in one of your books, what would you say to a woman who’s starting to find herself in leadership positions in the workplace, starting to get some power, some influence? Yeah.

0:42:01 – (Denise Daniels): So this is a really hard question to answer in only seven floors of an elevator. But I think my.

0:42:06 – (Dan Doriani): Okay, you couldn’t have 14 floors.

0:42:10 – (Denise Daniels): My strong recommendation would be to recognize the power that you have and use it to support others, men and women, but particularly notice Systems that might be more challenging for women for any number of reasons, because of family challenges, because of whatever. And work to make those systems as fair as possible and as accommodating as possible for those that you have authority over.

0:42:36 – (Dan Doriani): Okay, that was number one. Great. Thank you, Mark, I’m going to strike my number two so you have a chance to ask your for sure, excellent rapid fire question. Go ahead, Mark.

0:42:46 – (Denise Daniels): That’s because I’m taking too long with his answers, isn’t it?

0:42:49 – (Dan Doriani): No, no, you’re doing great.

0:42:51 – (Mark Vroegop): I’ll keep mine simple. Denise, fill in the blank. For a pastor to be better at applying faith and work in the church, he needs to blank.

0:43:02 – (Denise Daniels): Yeah. He needs to know his congregants and know what they do.

0:43:06 – (Dan Doriani): Good.

0:43:07 – (Mark Vroegop): Okay.

0:43:08 – (Denise Daniels): Wow.

0:43:08 – (Dan Doriani): We’re going really fast. Okay, number three, what is your greatest joy in your work?

0:43:15 – (Denise Daniels): I think there’s two things right now that I really, really enjoy. One is my colleagues. I really love the people that I get to work with and the conversations that we get to have. And I also love my students and the questions that they come to the table with and the life that is ahead of them that they are looking towards.

0:43:30 – (Dan Doriani): Okay, ready? That was so good. I may even get two more in and Mark may get one more in. What would you say if someone says, Dr. Daniels, I’m just so fascinated by the work, the research work you’ve done, all these interviews and all these surveys. How can I do that? Tell me, tell me how to get started.

0:43:49 – (Denise Daniels): Oh, how do I do that myself?

0:43:51 – (Dan Doriani): How can I get started as a researcher? Whether it’s in your field or another field.

0:43:55 – (Denise Daniels): Yeah. I think it really is important to get adequate methodological training. And the best way to do that is to get a PhD in any kind of social science arena, which will give you the training that you need to do adequate survey and interview.

0:44:12 – (Dan Doriani): Yeah. Mark, you have one more. There we go.

0:44:14 – (Mark Vroegop): Yes. So fast forward 10 years from now, what do you think the main issues are going to be front and center in the faith and work conversation? If you could predict.

0:44:24 – (Denise Daniels): Oh, wow, that’s a great question.

0:44:26 – (Dan Doriani): That means she doesn’t know the answer and she.

0:44:29 – (Mark Vroegop): I don’t know. That’s why I’m asking. I’m asking you to guess.

0:44:34 – (Denise Daniels): I think.

0:44:34 – (Dan Doriani): Question.

0:44:35 – (Denise Daniels): Well, I would have to say here, as I look over the last 20 years of faith and work conversation, I would have thought we would be farther along by now. I would have thought there would be more broadly entrenched and taken up kind of recognition that everyday work matters. And I do Feel like that message is getting out there, but it’s not as deep as I would would like. And so I hope in 10 years it’s actually everybody. Every Christian church recognizes that this is an important conversation to have and is having that conversation, maybe that’s a lot more than an expectation. Yeah.

0:45:10 – (Dan Doriani): I think it’s like people can say the words, you know, your work matters to God, but it’s not rich or deeply textured or woven deeply into their mindset or their way of life. The community doesn’t support all the lawyers who have the same kinds of challenges or all the teachers who have the same kind of challenges. We wish for greater depth. Mark actually asked my question, but in a slightly different way. So that means that we have a chance for you to say one more thing you haven’t had a chance to say. Is there something you want to say that you haven’t. That we just haven’t gotten to. That’s on your heart.

0:45:47 – (Denise Daniels): Yeah. So I guess one thing we talked briefly at the beginning about the idea of rest and the importance of rest. Almost all of my books, the last chapter is on rest because I do think it’s an important topic. But the first book that I published, which is Working in the Presence of God, has a series of chapters. Each one is a different practice, a different spiritual practice that you can engage in the workplace or in relationship to work that can allow you to think about your work in a way that maybe God would.

0:46:17 – (Denise Daniels): Allows you to encounter God in your work is how I would say it. And so I would really encourage people, if they’re struggling with what does it mean to be a faithful Christian in my workplace? That actually might be a really practical book to start. What are some practices I can engage in? What can I do to recognize where God is at work around me already and where can I join him in that work?

0:46:40 – (Dan Doriani): That’s a great answer.

0:46:41 – (Mark Vroegop): That’s awesome.

0:46:42 – (Dan Doriani): Denise. I’m sad right now for two reasons. I’m sad that our ears interview is almost over, and I’m sad that I’m meeting you so late in my life. I wish I had known you earlier. You’re. You’re smart, you’re fun, you’re articulate, and, you know, you affirm what needs to be affirmed. And yet you tweak people a little bit to expand their horizons. Thank you for your time and for your research and for taking time to write it up to make it available to the world.

0:47:10 – (Dan Doriani): There is only one Denise Daniel who writes about faith and work. So if you want to read her work, it’s easy to find her, and she always has a co author. And I’ll just one more time say, here’s the book that you can easily get ahold of. Working for better. Mark, you want to say anything before we go?

0:47:26 – (Mark Vroegop): I completely agree with your assessment of our time with Denise, Dr. Daniels. My goodness, it’s been a delightful conversation. So thank you.

0:47:35 – (Dan Doriani): Yeah, thanks so much, Dan and Mark,

0:47:36 – (Denise Daniels): thanks so much for having me. And I hope that we get a chance to meet each other in person one of these days, too.

0:47:41 – (Dan Doriani): Oh, I hope so. All right. Thanks. Amen.