Let’s Talk: What’s the Point of Work?

Jackie Hill Perry
Hello Saints. Welcome to season three of Let’s Talk a podcast for women from The Gospel Coalition Podcast Network. I am Jackie Hill Perry and I’m here with my buddies my buckos Jasmine Holmes and Melissa Kruger to talk about how to apply biblical wisdom to everyday life. This season. We’re going to talk about a lot of stuff we’re gonna get all up in your business, we’re gonna discuss idolatry, boundaries, obedience to law, race, and a whole bunch of other stuff. But before we start today’s topic, I’m going to let each of you introduce yourselves. Melissa, remind us, who are you? Sometimes I can’t remember.

Yes. My name is Jackie and writer, speaker, author, person. Married to Preston Perry. We have three girls and one boy on the way and the dog named December. So I forgot my dog. That’s okay. How about your dog? He is the same age as my youngest child. So nine months. That’s right. So we have first seen that on Instagram and thinking it was. It was kind of stupid, though. Yeah. People were like, Why are you getting a puppy when you have a newborn? I was thinking why not? He’s just coming back. Yeah, you’re dealing with bodily fluids everywhere. Yeah, as well. And dogs. You put them in a cage, you know, babies, you actually have to feed them.

Melissa Kruger
I do remember thinking that I can just leave my dog. You know, in the cage. Felt very. Yeah, you can’t do that with a baby. No,

Jackie Hill Perry
you can, they’ll call CPS

Jasmine Holmes
probably should. But yeah,

Melissa Kruger
but anywho so we’re here again. And both of you are pregnant.

Jackie Hill Perry
Yes, yes.

Jasmine Holmes
Last time it was just Jackie

Melissa Kruger
just talked about this at our last episode.

Jackie Hill Perry
It’s a thing. I don’t know. That’s just the season where we’re in. I guess the season of you know, turning for now. Yes. Oh, definitely. For now, cuz next season. That is not gonna be the case. Hello? No, no, we just waiting on you, Melissa. You know, to get your Sarah on,

Jasmine Holmes
If you round this, I think that we can just be done. You know? No,

Melissa Kruger
Do you see the look of fear on my face?

Jasmine Holmes
I mean, I have the same look on my face. And look at me now a little bit of like,

Melissa Kruger
That would be exhausting. But then I’m like, it’s amazing to be pregnant. I know. Y’all don’t feel this right now. No, there’s a little human in you. It’s pretty amazing. Yes. And then it’s exhausting. And

Jasmine Holmes
Melissa is the best though. She’s like been my number one fan for the last 24 hours because all I have to do is like it’s a foot just like really doesn’t care like lameness. He doesn’t care. But he’s like, okay, yeah, I see. It’s a foot. Okay. And Melissa is like, Oh my gosh. And I’m like, Yeah,

Jackie Hill Perry
I do think I’m gonna reach a certain age where I miss. Yeah, the whole pregnant stage. And then I’ll just wait on my kids to have kids. That’s what I’m waiting now. You know, yeah, live through them. But anywho. Today, we are going to talk about work. But before we do, I think it’s helpful to actually define what is work? Anybody?

Melissa Kruger
It’s a good question. I know. Right? Now Hamilton is going through my mind, work work. Sorry, we can cut that right. Who’s gonna

Jasmine Holmes
You might not want to. I kinda like it. That’s what’s going through my mind, I think about work is being on mission simply because in the garden when God gave Adam the first work, it was about the broader vision of bringing creation into submission to God. So Adam was bringing creation and submission to God by naming the animals and taking dominion and then he came and that was also her work. And then they ended up having to cultivate the ground and like take care of and steward it. So I think about like mission and stewardship. I know that’s not like a dictionary definition, but I actually

Melissa Kruger
Really like that the the mission and the stewardship part. I hadn’t thought about this before. But we know that when the garden was created, it already had fruit because soon enough, they’re eating of the wrong tree. Right. So They were stewarding it, but they weren’t the creators of it. And sometimes I think we think of our work as like our own little creation. But it’s something we’re given to steward, and take care of what’s been given to us. I really like that. I haven’t thought about that before. I like the word steward.

Jackie Hill Perry
With work, though, I think, even though the language I think we use was was beautiful, you know, cultivation and all those things. But if we’re honest, work isn’t like, not all work is fun. And I think even the idea of work when we hear it, it might, you know, strike up some anxiety and some stress. So why do you think that there’s so much angst when it comes to either the idea of work or the process of actually working? Because it for me, I think when I think work, I think, Ah, I have to get up and do something I may or may not want to do. You know, I have to get out of my bed and clean, I have to get out of my bed and answer emails, I got to respond to text messages, just our whole life is work. And it just, it’s a lot.

Jasmine Holmes
I like Back to the Garden, though. I think it’s the curse. After after the sin of, you know, eating the fruit. God was like, Okay, well, now it’s gonna be really hard to cultivate, it’s gonna be really hard to you’re going to sweat, you’re going to have to really struggle. And I think that we still see that today. Yeah, we’re seeing we’re seeing the struggle, and not just the, the good parts of it, the fun parts of it, because there are fun parts of work. But there’s also like, I have to work to make money or we don’t eat, or I have to keep working consistently or, you know, things will fall through. Like, it’s it’s not just the joy.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, there are real thorns and thistles. With all of our work, even if it’s not physical ones, whether it’s just retired, we’re overworked. Yeah, I mean, there are all these things that I think in perfection wouldn’t have been true. Right. You know, if we were still back in Eden, I think our work would just be joyful and make us feel like we have a purpose, and we’re part of something. Whereas now, you know, our bodies are frail, right? Yeah, the jobs we do aren’t perfect. Everything. You know, there are struggles in whatever work even if we love our job. I mean, so, in a lot of ways, I feel very blessed, because I’ve loved pretty much every job I’ve had. Let me ask you this question, what would you encourage somebody with who doesn’t love the job that they’re in? Because that’s a reality for some people, they get to work every day. And they don’t like what they do. So I’m thankful, you know, but here’s, here’s the right whatever job you have, whether it’s paid or unpaid, they’re gonna be hard things. But some people hate every moment

Jackie Hill Perry
I did when I was at Wendy’s. It was just like, man, every day, I come in here, and do the same thing, put out the ketchup, cut up the lettuce, you know, create the chili, all the things. And it was the redundancy of it. It was just just the repetitive nature of doing the same thing every day. And I wonder if that’s why work can also be difficult is that it feels purposeless, it feels like if I’m only doing this to pay my phone bill. Like that’s it. Like, I don’t feel like I’m affecting the world in any way. Because you’re making food to sustain people. It might have a lot GMOs in it. But I’m helping you stay alive.

Jasmine Holmes
Or you were helping Jasmine pregnant Jasmine who cannot get out of bed and fix food survive? Yes, it did.

Jackie Hill Perry
Now DoorDash is a thing that they bring my work to you. Yes. Yeah. God is good. Yeah.

Jasmine Holmes
So maybe thinking of it in larger terms is helpful. Not in like, you know, I think we also have to acknowledge that all of us are very privileged in the work that we get to do at this point in our lives. That’s because we all three, get to do what we’re passionate about. Yeah, we love. That doesn’t mean that it’s always easy. But I do think that I have a certain level of privilege to be able to do the things that I love to do versus doing something that I don’t enjoy, because I need to provide for my family. I think about that I thought about that a lot during the pandemic just like that we didn’t neither of us lost our jobs. Like we both were able to keep going keep moving forward. The kit like everything was everything stayed stable for us during the pandemic, which is not the same for everybody else. Yeah. So I kind of feel inept to give advice about what to do when you don’t like your job because I’ve actually been really privileged in my work since I started working.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, that’s right. And I think there is something good in just working no matter what like if you can get to that even if it is like really I’m doing pickles again today, you know that there is something I do think that there’s something we were created to work. So it is better to be working even a job you don’t love. Then not to be working at all. Like there’s something right We were made to do this. And so I think, you know, I think the worst thing, and I do think there are rates of depression that are higher, you know, for people who just aren’t working, you know, and aren’t doing something, because you’re so contributing to someone, someone’s paying you to do this. If somebody wants what you’re giving, if you’re working, even if it’s a job you don’t love. There’s still something intrinsically good about that, that I think that we can hold on to. But I think another question in all of this is, how do we even know what we’re passionate about? How do we like, if we’re talking to, you know, a 19 year old who’s in college, and I think this is really stressful for a lot of young people because you go in, or you’re 18, or you’re graduating from high school or something, and people are like, what are you going to do with your life? You’re 18? Like, that’s a big question. What are you going to do with your life? But like, how did you even start to discern? You know, I like to write I like poetry. I mean, how did that even and how did you even get to the point where you could make a career out of what you enjoy? Because I think that’s a big step to one know what you like, and then to move towards that as a career. Because sometimes I think we think if we like it, then it’s not work. So I can’t make a career out of it.

Jasmine Holmes
Unless you think that if we like it, we shouldn’t have to work to make a career out of it. Like it should just fall in our lap. Yeah, that’s right. Amazing. Whereas I

Melissa Kruger
think we would all say, even though we love what we do, it is so work. I mean, it’s hard, you know, how to do

Jackie Hill Perry
it. And we may not always be able to do it, you know, circumstances and seasons change. I think, for me, I started to identify my passions, mainly about what am I actually good at, you know, always got A’s in English wasn’t really hard to do. No, obviously, I can write. And then when I became a Christian, it was my community confirming Okay, I think you have a teaching gift, and all the all of those types of things. And then I started to do poetry, but it was never on my radar, that this was a work that would be profitable, per se. It was like Nah, man, just, I’m a work at Wendy’s. Because I worked at Wendy’s for six or seven years, right? I’m gonna work at Wendy’s and I’m gonna do ministry. And that’s, that’s okay. And I still think that’s okay, just because cuz I think just because you have a passion doesn’t mean that you’re, like God, or Providence is obligated to put you in the field where you can live out your passion. You know, I think that’s a super American way of understanding work and things like that. But I think I started to pay attention to the way God was moving, where he was making it possible, that I could do what I love, and care for myself and my family. And so when I saw that, it was like, Oh, maybe I can leave Wendy’s and be okay. You know, when I saw that it was a wise decision to make, rather than just a passion project.

Jasmine Holmes
Yeah. I’ve been writing my whole life. I think I’ve told the story before, when I was eight o’clock, my first story was about everybody died, even married.

Melissa Kruger
All right, happy stories.

Jasmine Holmes
Right? They were all like the last words in the story where the narrator being like, uh, now I laid out in the snow and I die. Like, it’s poetic. It’s good. So I always knew that I wanted to be a writer. And, but when I got married, and I guess we’ll kind of get into this with the next two questions. But when I got married, I thought that I needed that I had to stop working. And I need to okay, like that part of my life is over. Now it’s time to raise my kids and, you know, maybe homeschool be pregnant, you know,

Melissa Kruger
which is work to be

Jasmine Holmes
alone. And so it’s homeschooling, and so is raising kids, and so is keeping home. Yeah, I only thought that one kind of work was acceptable for me. And so it was my husband, it was Philip, who was like, Hey, we should start. You should start a blog, you’re really good at writing. Or you should, you know, you should talk to this person who is interested in maybe like some writing projects me or you should. And so it really was Philip who kind of helped nudge me into doing more work that was geared towards the things that I was specifically passionate about. I think without him. I probably would have just been like, No, I’m supposed to. I’m supposed to do this. This. And I want to be really careful. Because it it’s still his work either way, right? Like being a stay at home mom is work. Yeah. But I was like, No, this is the work that I’m allowed to do. Yeah. And it took Phillips to be like you would have a bigger vision. Yes. Like we can do both. And then which involves him kind of having to take on more and be more involved and be more present, because now we both work full time. So it was really an act of selflessness on his part as well to just be like, I want you to be able to pursue your passion. And that means that I’m going to have to sacrifice some things as well. And he was willing to do that. So

Jackie Hill Perry
Oh, Question, Jasmine. So recently on your Instagram, you’ve kind of been sharing about how this is the I think the first year that you haven’t been teaching in school. And just kind of some of the grief attached to that. I guess my question would be, that’s obviously something that you have a passion for. And something you’ve been working like a field, you’ve been working it for a long time. So I guess what was the process where you saw? This is a work that I love to do, but I’m not going to continue to do I guess in this way. Yeah, I How do you? I don’t know. How do you encourage the people where it’s like, a season is coming where I can’t do what I love to do? Yeah,

Jasmine Holmes
yeah, I was a teacher for nine years. That’s my first job out of college. Middle school teacher, which is it’s calling, say, is a calling. Um, I’m not saying I’m just afraid of high schoolers, and I don’t have patience for elementary school. Middle schoolers or snarky and awkward and I’m like, That’s me, too. So that that works. That works for me. But yeah, I up until I think even I had talked to you in when we’re in Chicago. Was that? April? Yes. Cuz I didn’t even want to talk to you in April, I was still kind of like, I don’t know if I’m gonna quit. Yes, I’m not sure. I’m going school. Uh huh. And, um, I kept telling Philip, like, I think that I’m, I think I’m called to teach, like, I’ve just let him call the teacher and I fuckin call to be here. And I have been, like, one, the only black teacher. At the nine years that I’ve taught, I’ve been the only black teacher at the school for eight of those years. I have had majority black students one here. And so it just was not only was it teaching, but it was also this like, Ministry of being the one to stand out. And then when all of the things over the last few years that have happened to that have shaped our culture and have shaped our society made it more and more uncomfortable for me to be in that situation. And so I kind of had to decide, like, is this discomfort something that I’m called to keep pursuing and pressing into? Or is this discomfort kind of a restlessness of God telling me, hey, I have other things for you to do. It was hard. And I just remember I kept telling my husband one call is I’m called to be teacher. I’m called Beat teacher. And he finally was like, are you called to be a teacher? Are you afraid to stop teaching? Because you don’t know who you are? If you’re not teaching? Okay, okay. Well, now I have to pray about and I did, I had to pray about it a lot. And honestly, I thought, I had a lot of grief at the end of the year, and was very afraid to go into this here, not teaching. But school started last week, for my son and at the school that I was most recently working at. And I was like, I thought I was gonna be really sad. But it was really time to go. And I think it was just the Holy Spirit that helped me navigate like, I had to pray a lot. And talk to a lot of people I talked to you I talked to Phil, I talked, I just talked to me. I didn’t talk to you, not her.

Jackie Hill Perry
She’s talking now.

Jasmine Holmes
I’m talking now. See, I saw Jackie that’s why I talked to her.

Melissa Kruger
Without me. I mean, you’re hanging out with on the outside.

Jasmine Holmes
I only I feel like I text Melissa when I’m like desperate, like I texted her the other night knows like my firstborn is going to school and I’m about to have another baby. And I don’t know why I am right now I know. I know, she’s like I just gonna hug you when I see you. I was like, Okay.

Melissa Kruger
Sweet. But I do think what you said is a really good point about some of our angst about work is it was your identity. I am a teacher. And I felt that when I left teaching, that’s

Jasmine Holmes
one of those professions that just like, yes, helping professions will completely shape you.

Melissa Kruger
Yes, yes. And one I felt like because I taught high school math, loved it, that I felt very comfortable in those roles. And when I left it, I left it for a small season to be a stay at home mom. And I realized culturally, we often say hey, what’s your name? What do you do? And you’re like, Oh, what, who am I? Now that I don’t have a formal title, right? And so it was and then when I even started writing. I’m like, no, no, I am a math major. I am not a writer. So I thought for a long time. Like, I couldn’t say I write books. Yeah, I was like, Well, I’m pretending to write books because people keep asking me to but I’m not a writer. Right. You know, but it so it takes time. I think our work can be so wrapped up in our identity. Oh, absolutely. You know, and I don’t know how we, maybe here’s a here’s a question. So wind has Have you seen work move from a good thing to maybe an idol in your life? Like or can it become that? Or how do you see it? And I think the way I see it in some instances, when it becomes about a bigger idol like money or something like that when it? Yeah, cuz one thing you know, when you’re working at Wendy’s all day, to then do what you’re passionate about at night, you know, it’s from the heart. Yes. But when you’re doing what you’re passionate about to get paid. Sometimes you’re like, Am I doing this? Because I really love it, or just because that’s work. I’m great. Hey, yeah, you know, it’s hard to know, when it moves from this is good. It’s doing a good thing. And to know, I’m actually serving this Yeah, I’m willing to sacrifice God things for this work thing. Yeah. And

Jackie Hill Perry
I think that’s the evidence of the idolatry is that you’re, you’re willing to relinquish spiritual things, namely, God, yeah, to serve the idol. So you start to see, you know, your friendships, change your time at church, change your, your thought process is like, I remember there was one friend I had. And both of us love to talk about business, and things like that. And I noticed every time we went out to eat, all we talked about was business. All we talked about was business. And I started to feel convicted, like, Huh, that’s a problem. Our entire conversation is just about our work, in terms of the profitability of it. And so, but I do remember this time I was at this, this one TDC thing, I don’t know. And there was a panel. And this lady was talking about her mother, and how her mother kind of went through this interesting crisis when she was around 70, or 80, in terms of her identity, and she was saying that I reached an age where a lot of the things that I always used to do are the kinds of works I used to be in, I no longer do, and so I don’t know who I am. She was like, for 3040 years, I was a Sunday school teacher. I’m not, I was a wife, my husband’s gone. I was a mother, some of my children have passed on before me. And it’s not that she’s no longer a mother. It’s just the exercises that were attached to that I day, all of them have shifted. And now she’s this older lady in her home, like who am I because so much of her worth was attached to what she was able to do now that she’s not able to do it. The question is, who is she? And I was like, Man, that’s, it made me really start to think I don’t want to get to a point where I’m older, and now I’m confused about my place in the world.

Jasmine Holmes
I thought that about teaching, I think teaching was an idol for me in a lot of ways, because I was like, it’s an easy identifier. Because when you’re a writer, or a speaker, or a, like, you don’t have the typical nine to five, I like I sometimes feel like people don’t take it seriously. They’re like, what do you do? And you’re like, I’m a writer, and they’re like, are you know, they don’t like? It’s like, oh, okay, cool. So you self publish trashy romance novels or like write with people laying in the snow and dying at the end. And it takes a lot of, I’m not good at marketing myself and kind of like pushing myself forward. My husband’s family gets onto me for that all the time. And like you always downplay everything. And I remember when I quit my teaching job, my boss was just like, Well, I think it’s really great that you’re gonna, like, spend more time with your side hobby, you know, like, I was just like this. So the people that I’ve been working with her for years don’t know that they’re my side hobby. And like, yeah, because of the way that I talk about my work is I downplay it all the time, to the point where the person that I work for thought that the $800 a month that I was bringing in teaching was like, that’s a real job, my like, full vocation. But that feels safer than saying, like, I’m a writer, and people say like, what do you write and I’m like, about shame. Shame, which I feel right now. That makes expert on it. Um, so yeah, I think teaching for me was like a safety like, it felt like a safe thing to say that I say that I did. In the same way that I think the little stint of time that I wasn’t working outside the home and was a stay at home mom, that felt also like a safe identity. Because that’s like, what you’re supposed to be doing. Yeah. But as soon as you say like writer and have to like give more details. I was always like, yeah, that’s weird.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, I think women it’s interesting. You know, we have potentially this isn’t always the case, because you may be a woman who works the same job for 40 years, and you and that’s great. But a lot of us go through a lot more ups and downs in our careers or changes, then maybe men do not always I mean, some men are changing it up all the time. But one word of encouragement, I would say I feel like as a woman, I’ve been able to be real open handed with my work in a way that I don’t think my husband felt the same freedom. And now I have the luxury of being married. Yeah. So I was, yeah, he was he was the one officially supporting us. Well, I was just doing part time work, right different jobs away. So that was kind of, but we often think, oh, was the woman who has to give up the job. But what I actually found is by being a mom and working part time, and now I work full time again. But I had the opportunity to try some things without it being as defining and that was good in some ways, meaning my whole life didn’t didn’t rely on me bringing him money, I guess if that, if that makes sense. So it allowed me to have what I call, there’s a really good book it talks about it’s called mindset. I think it talks about having a fixed mindset versus a growth mindset. And sometimes we can get really fixed. This is what my major was, this is what I do. And I was talking to some young college women the other day, and one thing I said to them was, if I’d had that mindset, I would be teaching math right now, still, my job didn’t exist when I was in college. I think it’s always helpful to tell younger people especially just be open handed to what the Lord may bring you through. And the job that you may have in 20 years might not exist today. I mean, you Google didn’t exist when I was in college. Yeah, I mean, I remember my friend telling me about email for the first time, my junior year in college, he’s like, there’s this thing. And you can send a letter, and it gets there right away. And I was like, That is impossible. That can’t happen, you know. And so there’s a whole world that may happen in 20 years, that doesn’t even exist right now. And so, a wonder what steps can people be taking with their work? Let’s say you are stay at home mom, let’s talk to stay at home mom, who maybe feels like, I want to do something. But right now, I’ve got four kids at home, and I can’t even breathe. What do you mean? How do I have a dream for maybe something I would do later? What would you say to a mom like that?

Jasmine Holmes
I think all that? How old is your oldest Jackie? Six? Yeah, my oldest is five.

Melissa Kruger
I’m tired for you.

Jasmine Holmes
I have a five and an almost Well, a two and a half. And then I’ll have a new word by the end of the year. And it’s been really interesting learning how to balance especially and then I’ve been pregnant, I’ve been so sick, this pregnancy. Everybody keeps saying like, Oh, you look so amazing, you’ve really gained any weight, it’s like, because I can’t eat anything. Don’t compliment me on my suffering. But, um, so I’ve been in the I’ve been in the bed a lot this year, like most of the time, like when I tell my soon to be middle child, the column poop. So like poop time has been time with Mama. And he will immediately go to bed and like jump in my bed and get covers on. Like, come on mama like that the place next time. So like, that’s how we spend time together is in bed together. And just reading books or doing whatever, cuz I’m just I’m tired. And I’m like nauseous. And so this has been a really formative because I got pregnant in January. So like all of 2021 has just been me not being enough for my children. And not being enough at my work. And not being enough at wife hood. Because I’ve just been really sick. And it’s really been a redefining time for me, because I realized that so much of my identity came from what I was able to do. Like I’m really good at cooking, and I take care of the cleaning. And I would be the mom who like took her kids on two hour walks every day. And like, I’m the Fun Mom, like we play we run around, we take all we wrestle, you know, we do all these things. And so all of the identity that I had, in both motherhood and work got shaken up this year by having to just lay in the bed and have be pregnant.

Melissa Kruger
Which is work. Yes, yes, your body’s working,

Jasmine Holmes
my body’s working. And that’s just but it’s feeling like it’s crazy because your body’s working, but it feels like it’s falling apart you’re like. Um, so I think my encouragement would just be realizing that the path forward may not look as neat and tidy as you think it’s gonna look and also realizing that so much of our identity as a speaker, you know, to women, comes from what we do, whether it’s professionally or relationally, whether it’s in the home or outside of the home. So much of our identity comes from proving that we’re worthy that we are that we’re useful that we’re successful. Whether it’s you know, successful at running the house like June Cleaver or successful at our corporate like it’s just so tied up in work What we do what we can deliver. And this year has been a year where I’ve not been able to deliver as much as normal. And His revealed a lot of idolatry and a lot of shame, and a lot of stock that I was putting in when I was able to do. Yeah. So my main advice would just be to get in, get in touch with that. So God doesn’t have to get you in touch with that, because I did not enjoy. God was like, let me show you something. Yeah. So if you can learn from my experience, and not have to be shown, I recommend that I’m just taking stock of where does knowing where your worth comes from. And knowing that it doesn’t come from the work that you do, either inside of the home, or outside of the home is the first step

Melissa Kruger
and knowing what your actual mission is. So my mission is to glorify God and enjoy him forever. And whatever I do today, so that might mean I’m doing that laying flat on my back. Yeah, sick. Yeah, cuz I mean, there are a lot of people out there who do suffer every day, from physical ailments that prevent them from traditional work, right. But to know that, oh, my goal today is to glorify God in it, even in my sickness, even in my weakness, even in my suffering, when I can put that mission on, I think I’ll still be 70 and be able to say my mission hasn’t changed. Amen. Like that’s the mission I can hold on to. Because then I want to be the lady in the rest home, saying, Can I tell you about Jesus? Yeah. And if I can’t talk, I want to be the lady who’s praying for the nurses. And for the doctors. I want to be that. But I really wasn’t gonna start being that today, if I want to be that at 70. And that I think this is the beauty of the Christian life. We always have purpose. Yeah, yeah. Our secular friends are people who don’t know Jesus, they will eventually get to the end of their days, and maybe become purposeless in their minds. You know, we’re, I mean, they’re not we know, because they’re creating the image of God, they’re not purposeless. But like, the wonder of being a Christian, is while I have breath, there are fields that are white for harvest. And so our mission never changes. But our, our maybe our mood does like what we’re doing to accomplish that mission. So it may be wiping little runny noses, is what you’re given today. And can you do it joyfully unto the Lord? It might be standing up and speaking to 10,000 women, is what your mission is for today. Can you do that joyfully to the Lord? No. Salesman says no. But you know, and that that’s freeing, like I can only do what he’s enabled me to do, rather than I have to stiff upper lip it and push through. And I think that’s God honoring to say I am limited, I’m not God. So the world will run if Melissa doesn’t work, and that’s refreshing to her.

Jackie Hill Perry
Yeah. That’s a good question. What is the place of Sabbath? In all of this? You know, because I mean, Jesus, God, the Father, they, they told us, or they like, made it a law. Hey, there’s one day that’s set apart. It’s only you’re not gonna work on that day. And so I think there’s a principle of seven that should be applied. But that’s harder to apply. Because again, it feels like if I don’t do this, if I don’t do the dishes, if I don’t clean the house, if I don’t go to work, if I don’t, if I don’t do all the if I don’t post my content and create my blog. Yeah, everything’s gonna go to crap. Yep. What is it that we’re supposed to be believing about God that would help us to actually practice Sabbath in real life? That’s

Jasmine Holmes
a good question. I think the Sabbath forces us to believe what he says about himself that he’s sufficient. Because we have to stop and acknowledge His Holiness, acknowledge His provision, and acknowledge that no matter how much work our hands are doing, at the end of the day, it’s him who’s worthy of glory and praise. And at the end of the day, that’s the reason why we’re working in the first place. So I think one of the purposes of Sabbath is a reminder

Melissa Kruger
that everything we have been given, every gift we have has been given to us. Yeah, what makes you better than anyone else? Don’t you know that? Yeah, that I think that there’s words from Paul, and he’s like, everything you have is a gift and when I can see it that way, I realize God will make up whatever I’m lacking with his body. And I think that’s the beautiful thing about the church, you know, where I am insufficient, one of you are going to be able to fill in with your giftedness like he’s created the body in such a beautiful way that it works but only works together, right pinky can’t do anything on its own. You know, the knee can’t do anything unless it’s connected to the ligaments and if I could just remember the word Wait, the world does not rest on me. Does it rest on you? And I think that’s where I see my idolatry come in. I want to be like God in a way. I’m never intended to be like God. Yeah, he wants me to be loving, joyful, peaceful, patient, kind, gentle like him. But I’m not supposed to be on knowing. I’m not supposed to be all powerful. Um, you know that? I think even with our phones, it’s this little instrument that can make us all knowing Oh, for sure. And so sometimes I think I feel pressured to do work. I’m not called to like, even if it’s just the work of prayer. You know, I could, there’s so much going on in the world, right, that we think I’m supposed to know about everything and pray about everything and posts about how I’m praying about it. Instagram, or whatever, like, I’m doing. Yeah, I mean, it’s just, it’s a lot and to be able to rest and the God who who has it under control. Like, I do think he calls us saying, come sit with me. Yeah. And so that’s when I start to see my out idolatry, if I’m so thinking I have to do and I can’t sit still in the word. That’s a red flag. To me.

Jasmine Holmes
We were listening to Exodus, Philip and I listened to I finished reading the Bible any year for the first time. Look at you. It’s a good word. I did it. Um, and Philip has just started and so he’s an exodus. And so we’re laying in bed at night, we’re listening to Exodus, and we’re listening to the manna. And first, like, we’re just like, I think it’s because it’s like nighttime, we’re just like listening to it. We’re just talking. And we’re like, man, like, Moses, just be talking to God, like, whatever. Like, it’s just like, look, I’m out here in the wilderness. What are you gonna I need help, like when and but the thing that we noticed was like, he gave the Israelites manna that was just enough for every day, and he told them only take just enough for the day. And don’t take anything more. And so we’ve heard this story, like so many times, but we’re sitting, we’re sitting there laying in bed, and I’m like, about to take more. Like I just say, they can’t help but they can’t, they don’t like listen to God, they took more. And then the next day, it was all rotten. And God was like, I imagined you to only make what you needed. And that’s such a like, lesson in He sustains us day by day. And so often we’re like trying to take on so much more than that. And he’s telling us like, with with Sabbath, he’s telling us, you only take on so much. And I really do have the rest on is such a good object lesson for the Israelites who just like,

Jackie Hill Perry
It’s like we’re constantly trying to transcend our neediness. Like we just we just don’t want to feel human, which is me, meaning we don’t want to feel dependent upon anybody, right or anything. And I think it’s it’s okay to acknowledge that you are needy. I think so many. So I think the pandemic and so many of our trials and tribulations is really God saying, No, you you, you’re very needy, right. And that’s okay. Right. The only needless one is me. And so clean rest, trust, and you actually kind of easier life, it’ll still be hard. Yeah. But at least you might have some joy and some unnecessary anxiety. Because you’ve trusted me to be all that I can be for you. And

Melissa Kruger
We may see God come through with his chariots that we can’t see. Like, when was it Elijah? Who said look? Yeah, see the armies of God? Yeah. And he couldn’t see and then they appear on might really be off on where that is. But yes, scary, whatever, wherever it is. Yeah. And I think when we only see ourselves, and we just keep working harder and harder. We never actually get to see the Lord. do immeasurably and measurably more than we can ask or imagine. Yeah, and so it is. Sometimes it’s for me, it’s been sometimes I’ll lift up my hands, and I just can’t, I can’t then he provides and I’m like, Why didn’t I ask earlier? Right? You know, why didn’t I ask for help? And why am I so prideful? I mean, it really is I don’t want to have to ask him for help, again. Because I feel like a needy beggar. And I just need to probably be like, I’m gonna be that my whole life.

Jackie Hill Perry
Yeah, yep. But that’s why I think we just have to be reminded that God is our Lord, but also our father. Hmm. You know, and so our burdens aren’t burdensome to him. And I know, depending on how we were parented, that might just be a framework that we have to get rid of, you know, our parents like Steve XVI. And that’s because they’re human. That’s right. Right, right. But God was like, No, give me your cares. Yeah. Because I care. And that’s okay. So

Melissa Kruger
Actually, one of my greatest frustrations as a parent is when my kids won’t ask for help. I do remember their little I do it myself. Yeah, I mean, they just stubborn and they would not want my help boy There was tying their shoes or putting on their pants backwards or inside out or whatever they were doing. And you’re like this is going to take so much longer because you just won’t let me help you. You know and I wonder sometimes if the Lord is up saying this is gonna take so much

Jackie Hill Perry
Because you just look at to try and tie your shoe you don’t even know how to tie your shoe you any read it in Leviticus how to tie your shoe you ever tried to work from ignorance? I don’t think that would that would be a little bit because if there was for sure

Jasmine Holmes
The law Yeah, how to tie your shoe.

Melissa Kruger
Okay, so let me ask you this. What was your first job? Just random,

Jasmine Holmes
My first job, but I was a research assistant. Oh, you’re like

Jackie Hill Perry
You went facy immediately. Yeah, made burgers at Wendy’s.

Melissa Kruger
Okay. And I worked at belts, which is a department store handing, okay, well, I was hired during the Christmas season to hand out the tissue paper. That’s all I was supposed to be doing. So when someone didn’t want to go get their gift wrap, right. Free Gift wrap. I just was supposed to hand it. Well, then they got really busy one day and the gift wrap section. And they made me go back and wrap a gift.

Jackie Hill Perry
I didn’t go well.

Melissa Kruger
I apologize. I wrapped it it looks so terrible. I had no didn’t show you how to know they didn’t show me how. So I’m watching these and these women who work back there. They’re like professionals, they have been working there for 30 years. And they know what they’re doing. And I wrapped it so awfully. And I handed it to the lady. And I was like, I’m sorry.

Jackie Hill Perry
Well, she merciful, she was nice.

Melissa Kruger
I haven’t rerouted. I’m sorry. But I really did learn I finally learned so now I can wrap things up. But he

Jackie Hill Perry
makes all things work together. Work together. Hello.

Jasmine Holmes
Hey, on that note, every week on Let’s Talk, we like to end by talking about our favorite things. In this week, I wanted to know what is your favorite place to work not like plays in employment, but like placed in your house, or at the coffee shop or wherever that you work.

Jackie Hill Perry
A coffee shop. Preferably when I was working on my first book, I realized one that I could not work at home. Because it’s just it’s one is too many distractions, but also as too many comforts. Because it’s like me knowing that my bed is down the hall. It’s kind of like yeah, I just, I’m gonna take a long break and lay down and then the TV’s right. There’s just not a thing. And so when I was in Chicago, I will work at this coffee shop that had really good food really good coffee, but it was also mildly uncomfortable. And it was something about the uncomfortability of it all that made me work more diligently. Because I wasn’t so relaxed. It was weird. But that’s my thing. Yeah.

Jasmine Holmes
I have been pregnant for both of my last two books. So you’re pregnant,

Melissa Kruger
And doing books that’s like, oh, well, that’s like twins. Yeah.

Jasmine Holmes
So the bed. So yeah, my manuscript with mother decided was due the week after Langston was born in my manuscript with saying the book about shame that I’m writing is due this, like the same week that Jamie is due now. So I’ve just been, I just work in the bed.

Jackie Hill Perry
And you, you you succeed?

Jasmine Holmes
I do. Because my process I’m not very people, like what’s your writing process? Like, let me get your head on like I write when I feel like it.

Melissa Kruger
And you have a superpower.

Jasmine Holmes
And I don’t like it. I don’t edit it. I just write when I feel like it. And what I write is what’s there. That’s nice. So my editors write really fast. And there’s my favorite people. decussate Yes. Remember that like Olympic sprinter that deadline? I know. I can remember the last time we were together.

Melissa Kruger
The book that you wrote a chapter and

Jasmine Holmes
I literally woke up that morning. And I was like, Oh my gosh, it’s due today. And I wrote it and people were like, oh, it’s such a boy. I was like, I don’t know what I said. People shouldn’t do that.

But like, I don’t have a lot of talents. So I’m just gonna lean into it. Sure it is your time was productive. My one.

Melissa Kruger
I am completely boring. I need complete silence. That’s why I can’t work at a coffee shop or anywhere. And so I work at a desk upstairs. I think this is best when my kids aren’t home. But they know they’re old enough. Now they’re not running in, you know. And I yeah, I work at my desk. I need all my stuff right around me. I need really quiet. I need a cup of tea. And then because I have back issues, I will actually write a good bit laying on the floor like this. You know, I mean, I’m just laying down a bit I just have to shift. I can’t do that at a coffee shop either because that’d be awkward. But yeah, I just I really have to have complete quiet. That’s my big thing. So I’d start hearing everybody’s conversation at a coffee shop. Have you ever wonder what they’re gonna do about that situation? Right? So like, too much, and music distracts me, everything distracts me,

Jasmine Holmes
I write with my kids like dancing on my head. It that’s amazing. I think it’s because I have so many younger siblings. Yeah, that I’m just like, that’s fine.

Melissa Kruger
That’s amazing. We’re excited to share with you about our sponsor this year, it’s Crossway, which we all love to get books from them. And today, we are talking about a book from Jonathan Gibson, Jasmine, you want to give us some? To tell us a little bit about it?

Jasmine Holmes
Yes, it is called be there my vision, liturgy for daily worship. And it’s just what it says it’s 31 devotionals. That should take you about 15-20 minutes to finish every day. You can check it out in the beginning or the end of your quiet time. And it just seems like a really easy, simple way to worship God. Yeah.

Jackie Hill Perry
I love that. And I like the book cover. You like the cover?

Jasmine Holmes
It’s pretty I like the book name because you want to sing the song, but I won’t do that.

Melissa Kruger
Because it it switches things up a little bit. Yes. Like, I can get into a rut my prayer life or I can get into. I just yeah, I’m reading the same Bible passages over and over and over again. I like that it kind of, I noticed that like the Nicene Creed is in there. And sometimes I just love to read something like an old creed. That was someone took a lot of time to write this. And it’s really it really is worshipful in a beautiful way that these words express what our hearts know. Yeah, but they say it better. That’s why I love old hymns. Yeah, they say it better. So I love that he kind of does that for us and put it on when

Jasmine Holmes
We miss liturgy a lot in our modern church environments. And so it’s really cool that you can bring this into everyday. Yeah, Jackie, can you tell us where to pick up Be Thou My Vision?

Jackie Hill Perry
Yeah, they can get it wherever books are sold, or they can visit Crossway.org/plus, and when they do that, they can find out how to get 30% off. And the saints love a discount. So do it. Alright, thank you for listening to this episode of Let’s Talk and joining us for season number three. We hope that you’ll subscribe so that you don’t miss any episodes. Check out other shows from the gospel coalition podcast network at tgc.org/podcasts. The Gospel Coalition supports the church and making disciples of all nations by providing resources that are trusted and timely, winsome and wise and centered on the gospel of Jesus Christ.