How to Rediscover Orthodoxy as the Ultimate Adventure

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Collin Hansen
The church faces her biggest challenge not when new errors start to win. But when old truths no longer Wow. That’s the first line in Trevin wax his new book The thrill of orthodoxy rediscovering the adventure of Christian faith. New from IVP. If you subscribe to my gospel bound newsletter, then you know that Trevon is a friend to me and to this show, I like to his blog just about every week. This line from his new book doesn’t describe gospel bound the whole purpose of this podcast and I don’t know what does. cevin writes this, quote, The way forward is to reach back to find renewal in something old, foundational truths tested by time, a fount of goodness that refreshes and satisfies long forgotten beauty from the past that lifts our eyes above the suffering and sorrow of the president. And quote, now, Kevin’s book, the thrill of Orthodoxy is full of vivid writing. I want to share a couple more of my favorite quotes. Here’s another one, Trevon writes, the thrill of orthodoxy lies in its challenge. We are called to become not merely nice neighbors who are kind and polite, but holy people who look more and more like Jesus, and quote now here’s another one. Our culture conditions us to resist the lines and boundaries we’ve inherited from people in the past. But orthodoxy insists that certain limitations are necessary for freedom. If we do away with lines and limits if we think every wall needs a sledgehammer, if we crumble the blueprint and toss it aside, we may feel free, but we’ll never build anything that lasts. Now among the many things I like about Trevon, he’s a builder. He works in teams, he makes everyone else better. That’s what his writing helps us to do, whether it’s as a columnist for the gospel coalition, or in his many books, and I’m excited to talk to him today about why heresy hunters often turn out themselves to be heretics, how we can know if something is Orthodox, and why he’s confident the future belongs to the Orthodox we discuss his new book, The thrill of orthodoxy Trevin. Thanks for joining me,

Trevin Wax
Collin, always good to be with you. Thanks for having me on.

Collin Hansen
Trevin, what’s the burning passion that made you say, I must write this book right now?

Trevin Wax
I fear that there’s a lack of confidence in the in the beauty in the goodness of Christian truth. And I think that lack of confidence leads to a downplaying of doctrine. And, frankly, I think every generation has to come to the, to the place where we, where every generation has to recapture the the beauty and the thrill and the confidence and the goodness of and truth of, of Christian teaching. And, you know, I so so we’re looking out over the landscape, and just in conversations with pastors and church leaders, and, and hearing, you know, what some of the challenges and some of the frustrations and the things going on with, with people with lay people in the church, I was just, I was really burdened to help, you know, I thought one of the ways I think I could help would be to, to write a book that not only talks about the thrill of Christian teaching, and the beauty of orthodoxy and doctrine and the fundamentals of the faith, but that thankful, hopefully wouldn’t just talk about it, but show it in a way that would make you sense it and feel it and, and recapture a sense of awe and wonder this treasure that we’ve inherited, so that we will be better equipped to pass it on to the next generation. That’s really the burden behind it.

Collin Hansen
For you specifically, what helps you keep your flame of WoW, for orthodoxy burning?

Trevin Wax
Well, I mean, personally, I think, finding finding people that that are really good at showing Christianity from a new angle to where you see something that’s been really familiar to you and an unfamiliar light, you know, I think that’s one of the reasons that people go back to writers like Dorothy Sayers and GK Chesterton and CS Lewis and people like that, because they have their they have a knack for that they’re just really good at, at taking something you already know, to be true, something that you probably believe and, and casting it in such a light that you that you see the brilliance of it, you see the glimmer, the, you know, they just, they take that diamond and they and they shifted just enough to where it catches the light in a new way for you and so, so offers like that had been I’ve been really strong. I mean, just quite frankly, I think evangelistic testimonies are another place where you for me anyway where I keep the the thrill of orthodoxy alive. It’s when I share the gospel and see other people’s lives changed by it and it’s when I get to, to get to teach Christian truth to others and see their eyes light up, there’s something about that I write in the book about how I win. You know, we as parents love introducing our kids. So things that we have, you know, movies we liked when we were kids or toys and you know, foods and things like that. There’s something about introducing the beauty of Christian teaching and Christian truth to an unbeliever or to, you know, to our kids, as we’re seeking to raise them in the faith. That’s another thing that just, it’s like the the seeing it again, for the first time, it just nothing, nothing compares to that. It just wows you again, and again.

Collin Hansen
To use a sports analogy, which I know you will appreciate traveling. I’m thinking about I’m taking my kids to a football game on Saturday night, and my wife and I, we have season tickets. Sometimes we get to go, there’s the two of us, sometimes we sell all of them. But it’s a totally different experience. When I get to take either friends, visitors, including my kids who don’t normally get to go, because all of a sudden I begin to see everything anew in their eyes. And that’s exactly what you’re talking about here. So the gospel is meant to be passed along. It’s meant to be taught, whether it’s to our children or to our on, you know, unbelieving friends and neighbors and and old writers especially do a good job of that and old writers whose cultural context is just different enough, where they have complementing insights, which I think well, you cited some of the mid century English authors there. You know, when, when he started TGC, with Tim Keller, Don Carson talked about the danger of assuming the gospel as a major theme in your book, in your experience driven how does this assuming tend to progress or take place?

Trevin Wax
I just I think it’s natural for us to, to get accustomed and familiar with things and to where we, we, you know, we don’t sense the power of them. So over time, that, you know, I call it the, you know, the, of course, moment that happens in our, in our understanding in our thinking about Christian doctrine, we, we wind up in this place where we, it’s not that we have, it’s not that we would deny a fundamental aspect of the Christian faith. It’s not that we would take Christian teaching and not be, you know, and not say we adhere to it. But it’s when we put something in the of course category, and it just sort of there, but it’s not actually something that captures the affections and the emotions of the heart over time, that that can lead us to just assume that truth rather than understand why that truth is amazing. Why there’s we should be we feel with all and wonder at that truth. And then we’re less likely to celebrate that aspect of Christianity. And over time, that that foundational sense of that why that’s integral to Christianity begins to be to be lost. And so it can happen personally in someone’s life. But I think it happens generationally, as Carson is pointed out with the gospel, he says, you know, one generation explains the gospel understands the gospel is captivated by the gospel, the next generation just sort of assumes the gospel and moves on to other things, and then, and you’re just a generation and then away from abandoning the gospel. And I think the same is true for some of the foundational teachings of Christianity that we can, we can very easily drift from being wowed by and being enthralled by the the beauty of the faith that we that we believe into just putting it in the of course category. And that robs us of the thrill of Orthodoxy, and I think makes us more susceptible to drifting away from sound doctrine.

Collin Hansen
You know, it was just just occurred to me, Trevon. So this is totally off script. And, you know, we’ll see how this goes. I was recently speaking for the faculty at covenant Seminary in St. Louis. And I was, they were, they wanted me to talk about young versus reformed, going all the way back to the 2000s. And in that revival, and they wanted me to talk about how it progressed. And then I use some material that I first started talking about in 2018. And I was working through three steps. And I’ve talked about this before the steps of the first group is really focused on things like substitutionary, atonement justification by faith alone, out of reformational type doctrines, then that kind of shifts as a younger generation, our generation grows up and says, Now I actually have to run something, I have to lead something. So you have a lot of focus on ecclesiology doctrine of the Church. And then there’s another progression then that kicks in about 2014. And it’s carried us through today, and that’s public theology, how to actually apply this gospel to my life. And there’s a real danger in that element of public theology of being so enamored with the implications that we lose touch with the good news itself. I certainly sense that I can feel that poll myself. And I wonder if I’m describing not just something that’s in time, but perhaps your book identifies a cycle. Maybe that’s actually kind of a cycle of how that often works. First enamored with Christ Himself, then how do I do this for other people, then? How does this actually work itself out? But then that becomes assumed of like, we’re that not wowed by the things that wowed us beginning about Christ Himself? Like I said, I’m off script, what do you think?

Trevin Wax
I certainly think there can be a cycle to that. I just I think people are different places in a cycle like that. So is there a certain there are certain movements, churches, groups, individuals that may be following a pattern like that, and then there may be others that are in a different place. With that, I think I think the real challenge that you’re identifying there, though, when you move into the public theology space, is it’s one that I identify in the book, but more in the in the, in the celebration of what you know, the the impact that a church can have in a community is that the the, that Christianity becomes instrumentalized, it becomes a means to a different end, the foundational beliefs that we have wind up becoming a means to the impact that the to the end, meaning the impact that we want to have in the community, look at how we’re making the world a better place by how we vote by how we help by our either social ministry or, you know, political involvement, or whatever it might be.

Trevin Wax
And I think, I think there is always that danger of being so focused on the the impact of Christianity, whether it be you know, social concerns, social justice, whatever it might be, that we lose sight of the very truths and teachings that give gave rise to the reason what we’d want to have an impact on the first place. And I think that’s there, it happens so subtly, but we’ve seen it happen again, and again, throughout history, the cross gets pushed from the center, and a cause even a righteous cause supplants the cross. And I mean, Lewis talks about this in The Screwtape Letters, it’s very, he says, it’s very easy to coax men around that, that corner, you know, where it’s suddenly it’s Christianity, and it’s Christianity for something else. And, and I think that’s one of the things we’ve got to be on guard against, if we are to maintain our our Orthodox Foundation.

Collin Hansen
Which brings me also back to Charles Taylor and sources of the self where he talks about the kind of the cycle of reform. But he’s, he’s a critic of Protestant theology. And he talks about how, as you know, but the whole his whole perspective is that Reformed theology reformation on Protestant theology gets you really excited about the possibilities of changing this world, within this world inevitably disappoints your hopes and dreams, which makes you lose confidence in the theology itself. And think we can see that cycle as well. And so I think that’s why I love the way you frame in this book that the gospel is always the fount like, we don’t ever move on from that going back to it is the only way we can continue to go forward.

Collin Hansen
And yeah, that assumption is, is deadly. Now, one of the other things that you’re trying to do in this book, which is pretty similar to some of your other work, because you’re trying to, to cast especially I think, in some ways for young people, about how Orthodoxy is the true adventure, as opposed to the boring conformity of everyone going their own way. I guess it seems obvious when you say it, that if everybody is doing their own thing, and they all happen to be thinking the same way, then obviously, something’s going that they’re not actually going their own way. And yet that seems to be the general conceit of our expressive individualist era. So how are you trying to do that in this book? And how can we recast orthodoxy as that real adventure that calls us to something much bigger than ourselves?

Trevin Wax
Yeah, I love that. That you talk about how it’s so obvious when you actually do look at it, everybody that’s saying, we’re not going to conform to anybody’s way of thinking and then they went up, like everyone looks the same, you know, or they …

Collin Hansen
They all listen to the same bands that no one listens to you. They all read the same, follow the same counts that nobody knows about. It doesn’t make sense.

Trevin Wax
It’s funny that way I, I do. I do think that, you know, heresies and theological errors, they tend to be really good at marketing. They’re really good at marketing, they’re not really great at when it comes to substance. And so, they heresies are always marketed as broader and more inclusive and more, you know, like as exciting and innovative and cutting edge and then when you actually peel back the layers and you look at what the what is being taught, you recognize that it’s domesticated If it’s being made overly palatable for contemporary sensibilities, it is generally some sort of old error that already has run out and isn’t like making a reappearance. It’s not something new, it’s generally always connected. And it might be a new manifestation of an old heresy or an old error that has already been dealt with.

Trevin Wax
And it’s always narrow, it’s always, generally it’s asked, it’s saying, you have to either believe this or that about Jesus or either believe this or that about, you know, the character of God or whatnot, rather than recognizing the complexity and the, the beauty of the both and that we get when we look at Scripture. And so I just what I’m trying to what part of what I’m doing with the thrill of Orthodoxy, I hope is by is I want I want people to see through the the, the, the sheen of the marketing for innovative teachings, and heresies and whatnot, and to actually see that, at the end of the day, the real adventure is not in, you know, making your house really comfortable by changing the thermostat by by by changing the the air conditioning to where everything is perfectly tailored to your needs, that you’ve invented this sort of, you know, very comfortable religion for yourself to give you a feeling of spirituality. The real adventure is when you have to deal with the weather. You actually it’s not my weather or your weather, it’s the weather and how do we, you know, we’ve encountered something that’s bigger than us. That is, it’s beyond us.

Trevin Wax
It’s not something that’s perfectly tailored to us. That’s the adventure when you actually encounter something so real. It constrains you at those very places where you’d be most likely to, to go astray or to want to chafe against some of the boundaries and things and so, yeah, I just I think we’ve got to recast orthodoxy and recognize help people recognize the adventure is that you’re discovering something, you’re not inventing something. And I think our society thinks invention is where all the excitement is. But for 2000 years, the the excitement that’s really endured has been that of people discovering the truth of Christianity that is unchanging, and that overtime continues to thrill people.

Collin Hansen
Traveling, we’re good friends, so I can just keep going off. Keep going off road. Speaking of adventure, on this one, you mentioned that our culture seems obsessed with invention. But I mean, I’ll tell you what kind of invention it is. I’ll use this illustration, which is not going to make sense. I’m sorry already. But it’s from one of my favorite old time shows 30 rock. And there was an episode where main character play Bell Baldwin has to put together a microwave, and they’re trying to jazz up the microwave, invent a newer, better microwave. So they say why not went out. Now forget one door, we need four doors. Okay, well forget that. You know, what if we had wheels? What if our microwave had wheels, it could move they’re getting so excited. They look at it in the end, and they say, we just invented the Pontiac AZTEK.

Collin Hansen
That’s the kind of invention we’re talking about. Here. We’re messing around with all kinds of stuff, but then we’re just reinventing older, passe things. That’s what I see you talking about with heresies. Here. Like you’re just going back to some old busted thing that a previous generation discarded, but you’re thinking that it’s so special, feels like fashion often works that way as well. But I love, love your quote here on. This is I think my favorite quote in the book. And you jumped a couple questions ahead on me with what makes heresy so appealing. But I love what you say here, quote, the broadness and coherence of orthodoxy out shines the narrowness of heresy in the architectural shape of Christian theology. Orthodoxy, like the spires and beams and a gothic structure can uphold a bigger and stronger roof. heresy, however, is like a series of cracks that tend to multiply in ways that over time can’t sustain the weight of such beauty. By spreading throughout the structure, heresies lead to collapse. I told people up front, this is a very vivid book, and knowing you and through the through the process of writing this book, I know that was something that you really strove to do. And it’s just a beautiful thing to read. Now explain Trevin what you mean by heresy hunters themselves ending up heretics? I’m wondering if you have some examples of this.

Trevin Wax
Yeah, I you know, what’s interesting is that sometimes generally heresies, there has to be at least some kind of truth and a heresy otherwise it would never catch on. So that you the one thing to recognize is that generally speaking, heretics don’t start out by wanting to destroy the church. They generally want to start out by wanting to defend some aspect of doctrine that they see is vitally important. What can happen over time though, is that it’s Someone that is extraordinarily passionate about a particular doctrine and is ready to, you know, bring down the hammer on anyone who steps out of line regarding that doctrine. So that’s what I mean by Arizona, like they’re looking for anyone who may be even close to wobbling on that, or, you know, or even drifting toward a boundary marker on, they can want to become so singularly obsessed with a particular doctrine that they’re, that they’re that they’re most passionate about, that they can begin to wield that doctrine as a weapon over against other also very important doctrines of the Christian faith.

Trevin Wax
So, I mean, I think a good example of this would be polygynous polygynous. Recognize, you know, 1600 years ago or so recognize that there was a lot of laxity, moral laxity in the church, during the, you know, the era after the persecutions had passed, and things that and so, les just winds up What do you mean he, he’s extraordinarily passionate about wanting people to you know, he’s extraordinarily passionate about the moral vision of Christianity, and he wants people to, to live like Christians, which that’s true, we should all want that.

Trevin Wax
You know, I think that’s something that the Church Fathers would have shared with, with religious but what happens is, by taking that one obsession, and then by by leaving out other truths of Christian teaching about sinful nature and about repentance and what the whole life of faith looks like and whatnot, Palais just winds up. So exaggerating, human ability and human the nature of human goodness and whatnot, that he that he winds up, you know, falling into the ditch of heresy, I mean, areas is similar in that he wants to safeguard you know, areas is probably the like, he’s the quintessential heretic, right like the the, the, the one that you would lead to, but what’s driving areas well areas is driven by a desire to safeguard the glory of God the Father, he, he believes that in equating the son with the father in the way that that was happening at the time.

Trevin Wax
He thinks Jesus shouldn’t be exalted. I mean, he says, you know, and he thinks Jesus is the most exalted of all the creatures and then even temporally, he comes before everyone else. But he’s putting Jesus, he’s putting the Son of God on that on the, the creature side of the Creator, create creature distinction. And the other church fathers recognize that in that desire to safeguard the glory of God the Father, he’s actually diminishing God the Son in a way that is leading him to take this one doctrine of God the Father, being so glorified and wielding it and to the to where eventually, you don’t have Jesus as the God man who has come to save us. And that one vowel in the wind, you know, homeboy sales, Toronto sales is the is the is is is where orthodoxy and heresy, it’s that one vowel is the dividing line. And so yeah, this is this is how it happens. Heresy hunters can sometimes be so focused on a particular truth of Christianity, that they fail to keep other complementary truths in perspective, and then they wind up becoming heretics themselves,

Collin Hansen
I’m not going to put these words into your mouth Trevin, I’ll say them. I just saw something recently from one of my colleagues, on our editorial staff at TGC. He was observing that we’ve heard a lot over the last, say, six years or so that we shouldn’t expect our politicians to be pastors. And he noticed that a lot of the same people who have said we don’t expect our politicians to be pastors now say, we expect our pastors to be politicians, and pundits. And I thought, well, that’s pretty interesting how you start from something that does make sense, those are distinct offices. But then the underlying motivation of it creates a scenario where, oh, theology is out the window, Christian Standard Christian morality, ethics is out the window all together. Now, we all just need to act like the worst example of politicians.

Collin Hansen
And I was reading a profile of one of the more notorious in our era, kind of heresy hunters out there and how he made a shipwreck of his life and more or less became a heretic through political advocacy. And so glad you gave some of those historical examples. I think we can we can see this as a perpetual challenge for those who are so animated out one problem. It’s almost like they need to recognize threats from multiple directions. Shout out to tremens book, the multi directional leader, excellent book. I think traveling this is probably one of the biggest objections to your book. How are we supposed to know if something is Orthodox, especially as Protestants I think is admittedly confusing when people say the Bible clearly says, and they don’t agree what the Bible clearly says. And we also know that even the church can be heretical. So we can’t just appeal to Rome, we know that even the church leaders can themselves go astray. You mentioned areas we can mention Athanasius, talking about his triumph for the Council of Nicaea. And yet, as we know, exiled by subsequent emperors and, and church leaders, where the Aryan view was was dominant, so how do we know? How do we know something’s orthodox?

Trevin Wax
Yeah, that’s a great question. And that’s one of the that’s one of the challenges of writing a book about Orthodoxy is that you, you, I have to, in chapter one, really define the way I’m using the term, because there there’s, there’s a sense Colin, in which, you know, for example, that there’s a sense in which it would go against Baptist orthodoxy, for example, to believe it to be practicing infant baptism. So, like, there’s a sense in which our, our our confessions of faith that are connected to various different you know, I would say houses in the neighborhood, so to speak between Presbyterians and Methodists are, you know, Baptists or whatnot, there’s a sense in which there is an orthodoxy a small orthodoxy to uphold, in those distinctions, you know, you know, the, when we think of the reformed tradition, you know, there was the debate between, you know, Calvin’s followers and our minions, of course, because the, the question was, what are we going to consider sort of Orthodox in the, in terms of this, this understanding of how God’s sovereignty and how human responsibility works together?

Trevin Wax
And, and it wasn’t that it was necessarily a nap aromatizing. The other side is that they’re not believers, but but they were very much wanting to safeguard what they believe to be the the truth of what Scripture teaches. For that, for that tradition. So in but in this book, I’m really I’m taking the Thomas Odin, classic Christianity consensual Christianity, or CS Lewis, Mere Christianity, vision of what Orthodoxy is, this is what Chuck Colson in the faith did something similar. This is what the old quote is what has been believed everywhere, by ever, bye, bye, everyone through all time, you know, always by everyone, everywhere, like these are the foundational beliefs of Christianity, that it’s the Trinitarian foundation that is at the heart of the Creed’s. It’s, it’s those crates are then the foundation of the confessions of various denominations and groups. And then and so there’s that there is that that classic core of Christianity.

Trevin Wax
Now, that does not mean that there is not a debate, significant debate, and significant differences between people who would adhere to that classic core, on on any number of things. I mean, one of the things I mentioned in the first part of the book is, you know, generally Protestants may be convinced of something in Scripture, and we may move from one denomination to another or whatnot. And we would consider it like, maybe, you know, almost like a transfer, I go into another house in the neighborhood, but between Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism, we use terms like conversion, rather than just sort of movement, because we recognize the differences are that significant. I mean, that’s one of the reasons why we have the, you know, the Reformation, so I am not seeking to downplay those at all. I do. Right. You know, it’s a, you know, Catholic friends of mine who may read the book are gonna probably roll their eyes at Bart’s because they, I’m appealing to that classic cork Trinitarian and understanding of Christianity, and yet, I’m certainly writing as an evangelical Protestant, whose evangelical emphases we, you know, run all throughout the book, but that’s because I believe those evangelical emphases are found not only in Scripture, but also in some of the same church fathers that Catholic and Orthodox theologians would would refer back to it you can you can see those there.

Trevin Wax
So, I think we’ve got to I think this is a time for us when things are crazy, and the world is spinning wobbling, you know, as Chesterton would say, and others I think this is a time for us to to say okay, we need to have roots that go deep. How deep do these roots go? They go all the way back into the pages of the New Testament in the Old Testament, they are expressed Well, the the summaries of scripture that we find in the in the the Creed’s that all Christians agree to, and then let’s make sure that we don’t lose our footing. Let’s make sure we’re grounded in that. And then let’s have lots of great conversations with you know, with with all sorts of people about the particulars of how all that works out but this is really a call for a return to the core instances of Christianity say you can plant your you can plant your flag here and know that 100 years from now, this is what churches are still going to confess.

Collin Hansen
Last question about the book, you segwayed exactly into it with that last line. You write this to heaven, the future, the church will not be forged by those who tire of the thrill of orthodoxy. But by those whose roots run deep through the ages of the Christian church, and back into the pages of God’s inspired word. Turn, what makes you so confident that you can predict this future?

Trevin Wax
Well, I think we’ve got 2000 years of church history showing us that this is the case. And I think we also have to look around at the church around the world today, not just the church in the past, but the global church, I think gives us a lot of perspective. That’s actually both church history and a global church is one of the key things I’m trying to do in a new podcast as well, reconstructing faith, which is it’s really it’s saying, Look, we’re in a season right now, there’s been so many failures and flaws and scandals, and I mean, and really, of all types. We’re at a moment where it’s kinda like a house after a flood is one of the analogies I use in the podcast, it’s you in order to rebuild, to reconstruct, we’re going to need to remove the rot, and fortify the foundations. And I think conservative types are prone to defending rot. Because they don’t want they think they’re they they want to protect the institution.

Trevin Wax
I think progressive types are prone to purging, wanting to purge the institution, they’re prone to blowing up foundational pillars. And I think, the task for us ahead if we’re going to be builders, like you mentioned earlier, if we’re going to begin read, rebuilding after a pretty massive apocalyptic humiliation of the church, by exposing so much sin and dysfunction and selfishness and scandal, I think we’re going to have to do both of those things that at the same time, remove the rot and fortify the foundations. And the only way we really will be able to do that is if we know the difference between the rot and the foundations. And we need to in order to do that we need the word open in front of us. We need fresh eyes on God’s word. And we need you know, the the ancient church behind us and the global church around us. And I think that’s, that’s part of the the desire and the burden for this book is to say, the next 100 years, what’s going to be forged what’s going to be built is going to be by people, who are deeply rooted in the unchanging truths of Christianity, and are are wanting and excited to apply those truths to new times to new challenges, not alter the faith, but to apply the faith in ways that are going to see more people come to faith.

Collin Hansen
We’ve been talking with Trevon Wax about his book, The thrill of Orthodoxy, rediscovering the adventure of Christian faith, new book from IVP. Trim and tell us where we can find your podcast.

Trevin Wax
You should be able to find it anywhere you look for it. It’s called reconstructing faith. It’s a little bit more of a documentary style podcast. So it’s, you know, got music and news clips and interviews and back and forth. So all of that’s that’s part of it. You can find that anywhere you listen to podcasts, if you look up reconstructing faith, and no and you can find it online or turbotax.com will take you to the gospel coalition, or my column is and yeah, I’m always excited to connect with listeners and readers.

Collin Hansen
Let’s do a final three Trevon. How do you find calm in the storm?

Trevin Wax
Well, I don’t remember how I answered this question last time. But I’ll just say I mean, for me, I It’s a test. For me, the practice of prayer three times a day has been has been really important for me in the last few years. So I make it a habit to work through different parts of Scripture every month and I’m working on a project now where I go through the life of Jesus basically in 30 days but but I I’ve got one this I’ve got a a psalms in 30 days little book that it you know, with different prayers and readings and whatnot, it takes me through the Psalter in 30 days and I, I tell you, there are times when I when I get out of that habit, I feel it. I so feel it, I am not as not only do I need that for my own, you know, growth in holiness in Christ’s likeness I, I need it for that sense of grounding, that no matter what is going on, I am punctuating my day with with those with with with those three times of of prayer alone, alone with God with with you know, going through his word that he inspired or that he gave us so I think that’s I would have to go back to that to say that for me that has become one of the most meaningful aspects of of the Christian life for me and it’s one of the things that keeps me peaceful when things are chaotic.

Collin Hansen
Second one, I’ll change the tenses here just to See in no temporal way? Where are you finding good news today?

Trevin Wax
Oh, you know, I find a lot of good news when I look at what’s what’s going on in different parts of the world, the growth of the church in particular areas, when I see what’s happening with a lot of college students and young people, I get to, you know, I get to visit different college campuses, like, I’ve been doing some teaching at Cedarville. But I’ve also, you know, taught at Wheaton and I’m about to head over to the UK for for a trip and what I always come away from trips and things like this with a, with a sense of encouragement that they’re, you know, as bad as so many headlines seem to be, there are just a lot of really faithful people doing really good work that don’t make the news. And, and so I’m, I find a lot of encouragement in that that the church, the church has been battered, but the church, there’s a lot of strength in the church that I think we’ll see in the next generation.

Collin Hansen
And the gates of hell will not prevail. And the last great book you’ve read?

Trevin Wax
Well, can I can I change the tense on that one?

Trevin Wax
I thought you might ask this. And as I listen to your podcasts, and I said, everyone I, I am about 60% of the way through a book by Christopher Walken, which is called biblical critical theory, which is basically taking the Bible and the grand story, the grand story of Scripture, grand narrative, the storyline of Scripture, and it’s, it’s up ending all of these different theories that lead people in one direction or another, in our society that have been so prevalent in contemporary society, and it’s sort of up ends that and it sort of RE, it kind of takes so many of the myths that people fall for in our society, and it re narrates them, it rewrites them through the lens of the Bible’s great storyline. And it’s it’s doing it in a way that just wow is me. So I’m, I’m very, I’m excited to dig deeper into this book, even after I finished reading it once it’s a textbook. So I’ll go back to it again and again. Not because I necessarily agree with his take on everything I just the the the level of thought and depth in that book has. It’s really opened my eyes to a lot of different ways that I think we can communicate the truth of the gospel in the next generation in ways that are going to be very, very powerful. as we as we preach, teach, right, and lead and learn.

Collin Hansen
Last 40% is also good. You’ve got some good things ahead.

Collin Hansen
I feel the need to clarify a friend of mine on Facebook asked me Wait, is this a book about using critical theory to criticize the Bible? Or is it a book about using the Bible to criticize various social trends? And I said, Oh, yeah, definitely the latter. Not the former.

Trevin Wax
Nobody gets a pass, like, the Bible is the sharp edge of the sword in that book is, I mean, it comes down on on, on all these different ways of things. So yeah, it’s definitely that.

Collin Hansen
Well, again, it’s been my privilege to host again, my friend Trevin wax talking about the thrill of Orthodoxy, rediscovering the adventure of Christian faith. Check that out, check out his podcast, and again Trevin it’s been a pleasure and wishing you safe travels and return from the UK. And I can’t wait to hear all about it. Thanks for having

Trevin Wax
thanks so much, Colin.