Let’s Talk: A Conversation About Race

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Jackie Hill Perry
Hey saints Welcome to Let’s Talk a podcast from The Gospel Coalition Podcast Network where we seek to apply biblical wisdom to everyday life. My name is Jackie Hill Perry, and I am here with Jasmine Holmes and Melissa Kruger. We are now halfway through season three. Yay, sir. confetti. We hope you’ve enjoyed listening into our conversation so far. If there’s one that’s been particularly helpful to you, we love for you to find us on TGC social media pages and let us know. Today we’re gonna be talking about the fun things like race and how to have godly conversations about it, Jasmine…

Jasmine Holmes
That’s me, I’m up. Let’s go. Um, a funny story first. My son when, um, who is just the light of my life when I walk out of my bedroom, and I’m like, dressed up. He’s like, You look amazing. That’s amazing. I put on a dress the other day and he went, you look like a woman? Oh, like, okay, so I was on a podcast. My husband has a podcast called make it play. And I was on his podcast. And we were talking about womanhood black woman hidden. And we were talking and I said, you know, my son heard me on the podcast. And he heard me say, as a black woman. And so we really don’t We don’t talk about like, as a black woman, white people.

Jasmine Holmes
We don’t do that in front of when because he really wanted him to just like, develop his own opinions and develop his own, you know. And so that was the first time that I think he’d heard me call myself a black woman. And so he looks at Philip and he goes “Dadda, is mama, the black woman?”. And Philip it was like, yeah, so he comes into the bedroom. And he’s like, Mama, are you the black woman? And I was like, Yeah, I in the black woman, and he hugs me. And he was like, I knew you were the black woman. And he was like, I love it so much. So now when he’s like, I was asking about his teacher the other day, and he was like, Yeah, you know, self describing, she’s black hair. She’s, and he was like, Is she the black woman too. And I was like she is the black woman was like superhero as well, like, and he’s very into superheroes. And he was like, am I the black boy?

Melissa Kruger
Does he have a particular connotation?

Jasmine Holmes
And I’m just like, you keep your all the black. Sir, you do you do that. But he’s just very like a black woman. Wow. And so that’s the first time that he was like him as a black boy. And I was like, yeah, and he was like, That is so cool. I was like, Yeah, me is I think it’s great. It’s like, it’s awesome. It’s awesome. It’s always the it’s always the black woman. Yes, I am. So today, we’re going to be talking about being the black woman being all kinds of women and having discussions about race, and just getting into all the all the heavy stuff going on right now. But I guess my first conversation, before we start digging a hole for ourselves, is what makes this such a minefield of a conversation right now? Because I I feel like it’s been a difficult conversation. Always. But is it just me? Or has it gotten more difficult? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And why is that?

Melissa Kruger
I think I think there a couple of reasons. One, I know. I know, for someone like me, obviously, I’m a white woman. The the white woman,

Jackie Hill Perry
The white woman, the white woman.

Melissa Kruger
Gosh, I feel a little I don’t know what that means.

Jasmine Holmes
You’re the representation of white women.

Melissa Kruger
But it’s fair, fine. Sorry, that’s terrifying. I’ve seen so many hurtful things said on social media that I can both be fearful to say anything, because I’m scared. My words might hurt someone unintentionally, because some of it that I see them like, that sounds really hurtful. I don’t think they meant to. But I’m like when you say it like that. You don’t know what you’re really saying. Right. And then I think there’s also though I fear, my silence is saying something sometimes if I don’t say anything, do people think I don’t care? Right. But it’s this. Yeah, I think I think there’s a situation where I know increasingly, how much I don’t know.

Melissa Kruger
And so therefore, it can be hard to have a conversation for me other than where I feel like I want to just ask questions, and I want to learn more. But what I see happening on social media disturbs me so much because it’s so polarizing. I want conversations to bring people together. And it seems like people are just shouting at each other. So it makes me sometimes like, I don’t even that’s not a conversation. It feels like people are yelling, and I don’t even know some of the terms. And so I’m sitting there trying to learn and trying to listen. But it doesn’t seem like we’re trying to get anywhere on these conversations sometimes. And so that’s what? I don’t know. It just makes it really hard.

Jasmine Holmes
Yeah, it seems more about winning than understanding each other. Like there’s so many canned responses to things to where you’re not just talking about different experiences and different understandings and learning each other and getting to know each other and confessing ignorance. Yeah, right. Or going to somebody with more knowledge or go into somebody and confessing to you know, it’s no longer that relational thing it’s all about, it’s like, it’s this debate tournament. Yeah, at all times, so that everything that you say, is being put through this lens.

Jackie Hill Perry
Yeah. It seems as if a lot of the race conversation really started to bubble up to the surface when Trayvon Martin was killed. And then when Mike Brown was murdered in Ferguson, it really became, I think, a bigger deal, but I still don’t think it was as divisive or vitriolic as it is now. Right? But I think the Trump era, I don’t even really know. I can’t even we need a sociology professor somewhere. Or ethics. I don’t know. It just seems like the Trump era is when they got like, rough. Yeah, especially in the church. And the lines got drawn.

Jackie Hill Perry
Yeah, it became real tribal. And I wonder if it’s because the race conversation has a lot to do with history and identity, you know, so it isn’t like we’re talking about these super abstract ideas, like, you know, you like almond milk, you like soy, and I’m being like, petty, right? It’s like we’re dealing to talk about race is to talk about ourselves, and the history of our particular people. Yeah, either side. Yeah. Either I come from a lineage of people who are owned, or come from a lineage of people that were owners. And so there’s both and that’s true. Yeah. So it, I think that makes it much more of a personal conversation as well as a political or so they say

Jasmine Holmes
It does. And we talked about shame in our last episode, in a lot of shame comes up in this conversation, and we don’t know what to do with it. So it’s like, I think so when I talk to perfect example, I grew up in a predominantly white evangelical church, when I talk about my experience growing up there, I have friends who are upset, because they’re like, Well, why didn’t you say anything to me? Or how, like, that’s not the way that I thought things were, or that’s not how I thought thing.

Jasmine Holmes
That’s not how I thought things appeared, or that’s not how I you know, and they’re not taking into account that, you know, at the time, I was 16, 17, and 18, and navigating so much stuff and trying to figure out how I felt and trying to find categories where I upheld and trying to find. And so they feel, I think, truly, they feel shame. And that shame has caused rifts in some of my old relationships where some people I’m still able to be friends with and, you know, we talk and we love each other, and it’s great. And some people are just like, you changed. I don’t know who you are now, because you were you were conciliatory before. And now you’re speaking up, and we don’t know

Melissa Kruger
And that’s because you’re sharing what your experience was. Right. And, and so that’s actually, I mean, to me, it sounds like it’s almost saying like, I don’t want to know you. Yeah, I don’t want to know that part of you.

Jasmine Holmes
It’s like, I want you to be in this box. You are a safe black person. And now you’re not a safe black person anymore. And you’re not safeness makes me feel bad. Like I think there’s this this reassurance author when I’m talking about race and justice that I get from white brothers and sisters in crisis that they want me to tell them that they’re not that they’re okay. That they’re not okay, but I’m not racist, like I, I’m not racist, like I’m not, I’m not. It’s just it’s it’s I don’t know how to describe it, except for its shame. And it’s a shame response of, please don’t make me feel bad about who I am, or even who my ancestors were, because I didn’t know what to do with those feelings. Wow. And so I’m going to react very badly, because I don’t have a healthy way to process. What you’re saying. Right?

Melissa Kruger
That’s a great way to describe it. I mean, that rather than just being able to say, Oh, tell me what I missed, right? Yeah. Because I felt that with one of our closest families growing up was black family in the neighborhood. I mean, we did everything with them. She was my soccer coach. She was the first and she was like one of the neighborhood moms. Yeah, neighborhoods have moms like every time I make snow cream for my family. I’m like, Oh, this is what Miss Scott used to do for us in the neighborhood. But it’s only been Since I’ve been older,…You haven’t had snow cream?.

Jackie Hill Perry
I’m from Texas. That’s like shaved ice, right?

Melissa Kruger
You take the snow. Oh, legit. Yeah, legit snow. So you take the snow when it says this is why it’s like the big neighborhood deal. We went to the Scott’s house, and she takes the snow and you add like condense sweetened condensed milk. And what else goes in there? Oh, vanilla. And then you just mix it around, and it makes this yummy concoction called Snow Cream. But that’s cheap. Yeah. Yeah. It was yummy. It was like in a bowl. Yeah, she was she would just put it Yeah, you put out a clean balls. No.

Jasmine Holmes
Did you do this? No, though.

Jackie Hill Perry
No. Yeah, but we didn’t eat it.

Melissa Kruger
No. We ashamed. I’m ashamed.

Jasmine Holmes
I think you should feel shame because I want to eat it. Well, okay, next. I want it.

Melissa Kruger
Maybe it was, you know, what’s that acid rain that we were always a little concerned. But yeah, she would just you set up the bowl the night before, so it gets all nice and cold. You know, it only says a few times in North Carolina. So you got to get really excited, though.

Melissa Kruger
Maybe I’ll put the recipe for snow cream. I’m so sorry. Anyways, I realized later growing up. I never thought what was that experience like for my friend? You know, so I just realized, Oh, here’s the thing. As a white woman growing up, I was never made to feel small because of what my color of my skin was like, I was never called something obviously. Like, I don’t actually know what I don’t know. And so it was easy to think. What all that’s gone now. You know, set like, I mean, nobody does that stuff. Because I never heard it in my home. I didn’t I mean, and so I want to hear what’s the experience of my friends, you know, just to say, Oh, I’m sorry, that people treated you this way or said this to you. But just because I didn’t experience it doesn’t mean it’s not real with other people.

Jasmine Holmes
And also just because you’re not directly responsible. Yes. Doesn’t mean that you can’t be empathetic. Yes. But I think it’s hard to move from. I think I think people move immediately from I didn’t know this to You’re accusing me of something. And I don’t like it. Yes.

Melissa Kruger
Rather than just listening to your story, right? And saying, Tell me what that was like.

Jasmine Holmes
Right? Yeah. And it just, it’s so it goes so much into so many other things that we’re talking in this he’s talking about this season? Because truly it is it’s this shameful response. It’s a legalistic response. Like, okay, the letter of the law says that you’re not being racist unless you use the N word. That’s the letter of the law. So if I had an assumption that was hurtful, I’m not going to apologize for that. Because that doesn’t that doesn’t violate the letter of the law, even though it maybe violates the spirit of law, you know what I’m saying? And so it’s just, it’s very, like, it’s just fraught with so much tension, because it’s people dealing with what’s going on inside of them.

Jackie Hill Perry
I think what makes it even harder is that one these shared these experiences aren’t isolated. It like your experience is not just Jasmine’s experience, it’s, it’s a lot of people experiences. But you also now have kind of this demonization of sharing your experience as if it’s it’s a critical race theorists thing to do. Right, right, right now to even share it is immediately discounted, right? Or not heard and not listened to. Because now it’s like, we’re being Marxist.

Jasmine Holmes
So what’s, what’s a critical race theorist?

Jackie Hill Perry
You tell us? Because the thing about critical race theory says we’re here now I’m here. I was like, You know what? People keep talking about this thing. Let me read about it. Because I’ve been on the critical race theory list. And I said, I don’t write on that list. I said, Why don’t keep saying was there like a meeting that happened at 6pm, somewhere in a secret hallway that I was invited to like, I wasn’t there. I didn’t know. I had no idea.

Jasmine Holmes
But we both were there.

Jackie Hill Perry
Apparently, the whole thing…was Derek Bale and all the people. So I was like, You know what, I’ve been in school. I recognize the beauty and the necessity of reading primary sources. Okay, so I was like, let me go read what the people who created critical race theory actually say about critical race theory. And you know what I realized? One, a lot of people don’t know what it is, but to it’s actually really confusing. So confusing. It’s It’s so high level theory that I’m like, it’s for y’all to be saying that everyone is critical race theory, your theories, you’re actually making people more brilliant than they actually are. We ain’t that smart? No, I’m not gonna be able to like so what what is he now?

Melissa Kruger
Yes. Because the same way that Jackie, I have tried to read. I mean, yeah, I tried to read, like sounds like I can’t read.

Melissa Kruger
I’m sitting there watching on Twitter everybody is it’s like the new bad word to call people, you know, Marxist.

Melissa Kruger
Yes, yeah, it was. And so I set it up and say what are they talking about? So tell us about

Jasmine Holmes
Well, it’s it’s interesting because, um, there was a list that came out a while ago and actually it came from my, my home state. I think I may be the only Texan who’s like, that is where I’m from. And I’m sorry. Because every other Texan is like,

Melissa Kruger
So you’re bringing the whole way to the state.

Jasmine Holmes
Just like y’all. I’m sorry. Then then they’re so proud of it too.

Melissa Kruger
Everybody in Texas who’s listening we love you and we’re glad you’re here

Jackie Hill Perry
You all eat things like Luby’s you do. We do do what a lot of Whataburger

Jasmine Holmes
And I’m such a Texan that whatever read me food poisoning and I still eat Whataburger like that is that’s devotion. Because normally if you get food poisoning from food, you’re done. Yeah, I’m still I’m still roll up on a lot of Okay. Um, but Texas like real, like some kind of political organization in Texas released this list of words like watchwords to be looking out for in critical race theory. identity was on the list. Normative was on the list the word normal, the word normative, the word identity, the word called colonists colonized, it was just like a bunch of words. And it was like this is when I was like, it’s such a dilution of what actual critical race theory is that it’s kind of like this. I was talking to a teacher and she was like, well, they’re teaching critical race theory light at my school.

Jasmine Holmes
And I was like, what is that? And she was like, what’s not critical race theory, but it uses some of the same phrases. And I was like, So are they also teaching rocket science like at your school? And she was like, What do you mean, I was like, well, rocket scientists all start out knowing that two plus two is four. It’s very important. It’s foundational. Because math. So like, anytime you’re teaching math, are you training future rocket scientists? Are you just teaching a discipline that also is connected to a way more complicated discipline that they’re gonna run into in the future? She was like, I never thought of it like that. I was like, yeah, yeah. It’s,

Jackie Hill Perry
So what is it? If it’s not normative and identity…

Jasmine Holmes
Just words, right? It is a legal practice. It started out as critical race Critical Race studies, and a bunch of lawyers were using it in order to have a framework for the injustice that they were saying, right? And that’s about as far as I can go.

Jackie Hill Perry
Yeah, it seems like it’s a lens. Yeah, by which to understand how racism is not just these isolated incident that is connected to the world, right. It’s also integrated into the structures of our law and our government, and all of those types of

Jasmine Holmes
And the reason why law comes up so much is because the group of people who originally came up with critical race theory, were lawyers who were trying to figure out, okay, where’s the root of this so that we can figure out how to use our use our practice to undo this, but that’s literally as far as I can, as far as I can tell you.

Jackie Hill Perry
So why has it become such a curse word, then?

Jasmine Holmes
I think it’s easy because people don’t know what it is. So if you don’t fully understand it, it’s you guys. Remember, when the secular humanism was like, all the rage,

Jackie Hill Perry
I don’t actually, but tell me.

Jasmine Holmes
The 90s I’m a child of the 90s. And I was like a Christian in the 90s. So like, secular humanism was like the bad thing. Yeah, that was the thing that we were all like really supposed to be looking out for, secular humanism. Yeah. If you said what is secular humanism. people be like, secular…and it’s…humanist. You have to be careful about it. Because it is both humanist and secular. And so like, teenage Jasmine was like, “I gotta be careful” because secular humanists are. And then it was like post modernism. Yeah, yeah. And it was like, What’s post modernism? Well, it’s just not being traditional. It’s like non traditional, okay. And then there was a little stint. There’s a little season in there where like, it was like evolution was going to take down yeah, the Christian like we needed to know how to argue with an evolutionist. It was very important. It was like you seven days of creation, get into it, because they’re coming after you. They’re coming after you next.

Jasmine Holmes
So like, it’s always I just feel like critical race theory is our new villain now and it’s The easy one, because it’s so hard to understand. And there’s so many like, it’s one of those things where you understand some phrases from it. And so then you’re like, Oh, is that critical? I say, Do you want to be careful? Because one of the arguments that people have made is like, well, nobody knows or critical, critical race theory is, so why are we talking about it? That’s not true. People do know what Critical Race Theory is. And they’re very devoted to crow race theory. And it is an entire system of thought and practice that truly does exist.

Jasmine Holmes
So we’re not like, this is all a conspiracy. There’s no such thing. I think what we are saying is that laymen are using terms that they don’t fully understand in order to accuse the brethren. Instead of stopping to try to understand what is actually being said, and what is actually being communicated. It’s making us bad listener, right? It’s become kind of a dog whistle instead of something that it really does, like Marxism is a real thing. But when people were calling me Marxists two years ago, it was like, why, for why Marx, Karl Marx was like super racist, actually. So

Jackie Hill Perry
Because you went to Frankfurt, Germany.

Jasmine Holmes
And so I think part of the reason why it’s such a divisive topic is because it is so hard to understand, for so many layman. And if you don’t understand it, and it’s just become a collection of buzzwords and phrases. You see those buzzwords and phrases, everywhere you even see them in I had somebody in my inbox the other day, because I, I love to study history. And I like to what my thing that I like to do is to go back to when Marxism Marx was just like five years old and hadn’t even come up with Marxism, and we were over here in America, and people like David Walker, and, you know, W. E. B. Du Bois later and rye Stuart, we’re already talking about race and justice in terminology that people would call critical race theory today and be like, this completely predates the whole notion of critical race theory.

Jasmine Holmes
It completely predates Marxism. Like we, we’ve been using this terminology. And we’ve been using this and founding it in biblical principles for a really long time over here in America. And somebody was like, Yeah, but WB DuBois was a critical race theorists and I was like, how that’s anachronistic. That doesn’t make any sense. And they were like, well, because he says the same things that critical race theorists say. So I guess I’m a Muslim now, because I also believe in one God, you know what I’m saying? Like, it’s just like,

Jackie Hill Perry
Yeah, so what you’re what you’re arguing is, it is actually possible to talk about race and racism, how it exists and how it is affected our country without actually being a critical race theorists right? Doing so

Jasmine Holmes
Yes. Without buying into the complete framework, either. Because critical race theory other it’s not a gospel framework, we’re not gonna get to Jesus from there, right.

Melissa Kruger
It’s like evolution, right? You can believe in micro evolution, which we actually see happening, meaning like the moths, I don’t know if you remember in school when they talk about the moths. And then all the dark ones survived, because of all the suits, you know, that was covering what at London City or whatever, yes, we can see certain species do die out because of survival of the fittest within micro-evolution without them saying I believe in macro evolution. Yeah. I mean, so there are parts that we can say, Well, hey, we actually see this natural selection happening out in the world today. But yeah, so we can say what is true in this? And then what’s what’s not? Yeah, so I can say,

Melissa Kruger
No, this macro evolution that we just, Big Bang happened? And we just came? No, I’m not gonna agree with that at all. Right. And so I think that’s an important kind of way to understand anything. Yeah. That even even something that, you know, I’m not communist, but I can look at certain things and say, hey, the early church, you know, they sold what they had, and they gave to one another, let’s say you being really radical. I know, sorry, but they weren’t communists. Do you know, I’m saying but they had principles that they were saying, Hey, we should know. Yeah, we should share what we have with each other. But we don’t look back at them and say, they were really communists.

Jackie Hill Perry
Like, excellent example.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, we just look back and say, and this is what I think there is common grace in a lot of even bad theories yet, meaning I’m not, you know, whatever. Like, there’s some common great, like, there’s something that people are seeing that sometimes. It is good to give what you have and share with others. But that doesn’t make you a comment.

Jasmine Holmes
This world is broken. It’s grown for Christ’s return. Yeah. And Christians are the only ones who hear the groaning. Yes. And other people are trying to come up with Yes. Where are these words groaning coming from and what can we do about it? Yes. And so sometimes they ask really good questions. Like, they’re like, Hey, do you hear that? Yeah. And if you say yes, that doesn’t mean that we’re on the same page. out the solution to do you hear that? It? Yeah,

Melissa Kruger
Like many of the founding fathers were Deist. But they still applied some Christian principles to things they wrote, you know, I mean, so people do that.

Jackie Hill Perry
I have a question for y’all as as teachers, I think one thing we are saying is that critical race theories is kind of being used as I don’t want to use the word excuse because I could feel dismissive, but it’s being used to limit the kind of history we teach in schools. Yes, you know, whether it’s Harriet Tubman, whether that’s just all the things right? How do you feel about that as teach because I’ve seen on Twitter, in particular, where teachers are and I think I saw on your page where teachers are becoming fearful that how, what can I teach without being like reprimanded? Right? When I talk about the silver war, right, when I talk about, you know, the western Atlantic slave trade, will they accuse me of being a critical race theorists by doing so? Like how do y’all

Jasmine Holmes
I would be lying if I said that, that didn’t have something to do with my I stepped away from teaching. That would be a lie. Yeah. Because I was just like, this climate is getting hostile. I’m already the only black teacher on campus. I already have parents who are complaining about my Instagram, you know, just like, I gotta go. I gotta go. Cuz it’s just, it’s fun.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, know what to bosses for and in face are changing the message that we got real problem.

Jasmine Holmes
By math, you mean, rocket science light? Yeah, rocket science.

Jackie Hill Perry
So what, what should teachers do then? Because there are real teachers that that they have to stay?

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, I think we have to teach without fear. I mean, there’s, here’s the thing, if you just teach history, it will teach, you know, so I think what I’m realizing now, when I look back even to American history, there were a lot of things we weren’t taught. Yeah. So just by teaching what truly happened, whether it’s it’s with how we, I mean, we were just up in Phoenix, and we were in all the Native American land, you know, and we’re talking to our kids about the Trail of Tears, and what happened, and just if we just teach history with it, to me, this is a biblical truth. We this country was founded by fallible men and women, everybody in it. So we should expect that it’s not going to be perfect. Yeah. Because we’re waiting for a better country. And the reality is, and please don’t hate me for this. The better countries on America, it’s heaven.

Jasmine Holmes
But, if we’ve connected our entire identity, yes. Yeah. To our country. Yeah. And to nationalism. If we have given into that idolatry, yeah. Then if somebody critiques our God, then we’re going to be

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, that’s, that’s what we have. Yeah, we should be able to say, Yeah, I think I’m thankful I live in America, but it’s a home, or it’s not home, I’m a citizen of another country. That’s what the Bible tells me is my citizenship is in heaven. And when I actually live there, then I can say, let’s look at the problems. Let’s look, let’s look at what wasn’t perfect, because I’m waiting for a better country. So I don’t have to prove to you that this is best. But I think we would all say we’re so thankful for getting to live here. And you know, some of the freedoms that we enjoy the other places we’re watching around the world don’t enjoy, like I’m not, but still be able to say, we have past things that need to be taught. So they’re not repeated. I mean, that’s the whole history of the Holocaust. We always say, what we don’t teach, we will repeat. And so to me, we have to teach the wrongs that were committed, and not be afraid of them, you know, and just be honest, and say, Hey, this. Yeah, this isn’t good. It wasn’t good to buy and sell people know, people are created in the image of God. Yeah, I mean, right. If I’m a slave, let you know. What’s Paul say? He’s a bond slave to Jesus. Yeah, I mean, that’s who we’re the servant of. And so we should be able to look back and say, yeah, there were wrongs. Let’s talk about it. I don’t know.

Jasmine Holmes
And some of that is accepting consequences of what happens when you do teach. Because there’s certain things they’re like, they don’t want us as teaching at all. Yeah, they don’t want us to talk about it. I think “Trail of Tears” is one of them. Um, there’s like a list of things. And also there’s like this litmus test of like, if it makes the white students feel bad, like if it makes them feel bad for being white, which like is very subjective. Then also don’t teach that. I remember when I was in college, one of my professors went to his office for him to talk about the exam. I saw the autobiography of Malcolm X on a shelf. And he was this white Catholic, you know, Houstonian with Malcolm X on the shelf.

Jasmine Holmes
And I was like, Yo, let’s talk about this. And he said, I used to have my freshman read it. But we had to stop reading it. Because I’m so small, private Christian College. Like, I think it’s, I think it has like, I want to say like, less than 5000 people on campus, it’s called, um, and we had to stop reading it because it was making the white students feel bad. And we had parents of college students calling the school and like, it’s making them feel bad because Malcolm X calls white people devils, you know, in the beginning of the book, you know, there’s a, there’s a, there’s a he does, there’s a metamorphosis of Malcolm X, you know, at the beginning of the book, you’re like, oh, okay, okay. Okay. And then at the end of the book, you’re like, you know, there’s just so much it’s one of my favorite books.

Jasmine Holmes
It’s just like a girl, you see the growth, right? Um, anyway, I was talking to him, and he was like, it just made him feel that so I don’t really know what to do about that. And I was like, that is so interesting, because I don’t think anybody ever thought about me when we were reading Huck Finn. Well, nobody was like, poor Jasmine, this must be so awkward. You don’t want to say like, we should take this. If you got to read it out loud in groups. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. And nobody, it just wasn’t even. It wasn’t even a thought. Like it was like, obviously, this is a classic. Yes, there’s some things in it that are that we don’t agree with anymore. But we’re gonna we’re gonna press through, because this is Mark Twain. Um, and he was like, I never thought I’ve never thought about it like that. Like, I’ve never thought about the opposite side of things that that make other people uncomfortable.

Melissa Kruger
You know, and I just saw, we need to have conversation. Yes. To me, that’s what’s desperately needed. Because how can I? How can I know what I don’t know? And so like, that’s a classic situation of, if you don’t have the conversation, then you’ll never you’ll just never get to hear oh, I hadn’t thought about that perspective. Okay. I think we, this is again, our desire to be God, we think we know everything. Yeah, we have lived a life. I think the older I get the, the more I realize, I am one little bitty person in this earth with one experience, because I even think about this when studying scripture.

Melissa Kruger
And yeah, you realize, I don’t know anything about first century Jerusalem. I mean, like I’m having to learn, what would their perspective be as they different cultural lens? Yeah, as they read the Bible, you know, what would? What? How would you know, how would an Israelite read the books of Moses? Yea, I’m always trying to put that lens on. And I think that’s just trying to love our neighbor. Yeah. Yeah. Trying to listen. Well. So let me ask this question. Are there particular things in discussion about race that can be really painful? Like, like, if people want to have these conversations? How can how can we do it? Well? Yeah, and or maybe what in the past has not been done? Well, that you’ve seen that? Yeah, people can learn from like, don’t say this. If there’s any, you know, like, hey, when you are when you say this, what you need to know, is that it comes off like this, does that make something.

Jackie Hill Perry
I think before the conversation starts, it’s about your disposition. You know, like, why am I entering into the conversation? Do I Do I even want to listen? Or or is this a performance? Right? Do I? Do I want to be challenged? Am I Am I strong enough to hear hard things? Am I able to even discern the things that is the things that are being said, that has nothing to do with me? Right? But I’m applying it to me, you know, kind of this this self centered? I think view of the conversation, I think it’s really how you engage in any conversation, right?

Jackie Hill Perry
With your mother, with your child with your husband with your friend. It’s let me enter into it with humility. In the spirit of let me hope the best let me put on compassion. Let me walk in kindness and love. Let me be forbearing meaning Let me listen to what the person has to say. Let me be patient in this situation. Like I think just walking in the Spirit as we engage, honestly, we’ll do a whole lot, but I’m sure Jasmine has more.

Jasmine Holmes
But yeah, I agree with you. And there’s so much there. There’s so much double talk in this conversation where one of the leading criticizers of critical race theory is an atheist that Christians are quoting all the time because he agrees with them. So they, so they quote him, it’s okay to quote the atheist on critical race theory. But it’s not okay to say anything it sounds like, great. So the double mindedness is something that I really, really stress that we try to weed out because our political identity has become so married with our personal identity in this climate, to where you can’t have a conversation with somebody without being shuffled into a box of you know, who did you vote for? What do you think about critical race theory? What do you think about? What do you think about the virus?

Jasmine Holmes
What do you think about you know, everything is just everything is so polarized? And so I think, yes, walking with the Spirit, and yes, rooting out that, that tendency that we have to go tribal, and to just the, we, as Christians, especially in this political climate, I think that we’ve gotten way too far into this, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. And so it’s like, well, yeah, that political commentator is not acting Christ like, but they’re saying what I agree with. So rah, rah, I’m just gonna give them pass. Or like, yeah, that critique was not honest. Um, but I didn’t like who they were critiquing. So I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna let it go.

Jasmine Holmes
Yeah, um, having an allegiance to Christ alone. And these conversations is so important in having relationship with the people that you’re engaging with. I, you know, I’m on social media. And so, at least once a week, a white person and asked me a question, and I’m like, that would be a really good question to ask a black person in your community. You should care what they think more than you care what I think. And when you approach them. If you’ve never approached them about anything else, ask yourself, why, like, why, why now? Why why when they have utility for you? Do you now want to talk about the experiences of their life? Why now when? When everything is so polarized, and you want a cheat sheet, now that person is valuable to you? You know, I think I think walking in genuine relationship with people is really important.

Melissa Kruger
And multiple people…. Yeah, cuz I know one thing that can happen is like, Well, my black friends said, bla, bla, bla, bla, you got one? Yeah. Yeah. And what’s actually, I’ll say one thing that’s been really helpful for me is reading because sometimes, like, you know, it’s not your job to help me know everything. You’re like to teach me everything, if that makes sense. Like, we can’t expect them work. Yeah, we can’t expect that. And so one thing I really recommend The Warmth of Other Suns, like it was a whole word on my education. I didn’t know about the great migration. I never heard of that. You I hadn’t actually didn’t learn about the trail tears. But I never learned about that. Yeah. And so just it was so helpful.

Melissa Kruger
I love how she, she weaves together stories, like where different people go, it sat on my desk for like, two years, because it was so thick. And I was like, This is gonna be work. It’s a beautiful book, but it’s so well written. So I highly Yeah, highly recommended, but also recommend fiction. If you’re not a historian like Jasmine. I really, I found some fiction works that are kind of based on history. I don’t know. Have you ever read the Underground Railroad? I have it in my phone. Okay, it’s, it’s good. It’s good. And the I just last week was reading and this just popped up. It was a what was it called? The personal librarian? Have you read this?

Jasmine Holmes
No, it’s on my wish list. My audible wishes. I just put it on my audible wishes.

Melissa Kruger
I just finished it. I have it.

Jasmine Holmes
I should have brought it for you. That was the look on my face.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, but it’s, it’s about the, the personal librarian of JP Morgan, kind of at the turn of the century. And she was a black woman who could pass this white. And so the reason she, she could work for him is she, her mother chose to move to New York and have the whole family pass as white. And so it’s, it helps you I find fiction can help you walk, you can never experience another person experiences. But you can at least walk in their shoes a little bit through a fictional character. And like, I just gives you a little more understanding. So I don’t know, that’s been something that’s been really helpful for me. I don’t know if there are any good books.

Jackie Hill Perry
I would add, though, don’t be afraid to also have a diversity of resources. You know, one time I was having a conversation with a guy at a church and we were talking about sexuality, and he was just struggling with just a conservative sexual ethic of potentially not ever having an attraction for a woman and what that meant him having to be celebrated is Romans 1:26-27 actually condemning same sex behavior and all the things and I was like, I would actually challenge you to read both sides to read Those who have a progressive sexual ethic and those who have a conservative sexual ethic and wrestle with it, because you’re going to have to wrestle with it at some point. So educate yourself and learn how to gain the wisdom and the discernment and doing a community.

Jackie Hill Perry
Do it with some wise voices around you that can point you in the right direction. Yeah, but I think just we will lean toward the resources that affirm our biases. So I think it really is helpful to listen to the people who believe you oppose, yeah, so that you’re just much more educated in your framework.

Melissa Kruger
That’s a great point.

Jasmine Holmes
Yeah. “Caste” by Isabel Wilkerson is also another one. Yeah, it’s worth reading. It’s, it’s its weakness, if you want to call it that, is it “The Warmth of Other Suns” does a better job of she just tells a story, and she leads you right up to the illusion? And then she’s like, and that’s the story. Yeah. And cast is a lot more pointed. So there’s more to disagree with.

Melissa Kruger
I also really enjoyed or I learned from, let me say it that way. Just Mercy is one of the hardest books to read. Because what it really confronted me with was even even when you read The Warmth of Other Suns, that feels like a long time ago. Yes. Just Mercy feels like oh, that was my childhood. And so read in about our justice system. From the perspective of lawyer he Yeah, he went down and overturned a bunch of cases that were by Bryan Stevenson’s essay.

Melissa Kruger
Sorry, Bryan Stevenson. I haven’t, I haven’t actually haven’t seen the movie I can’t remember the book was, I know, I love the book. So I highly recommend the book, it’s just a place to start also how they recommend Jasmine’s new book, Carved In Ebony as just what I actually loved about it was learning from these women and just knowing they were there. Because we’ve talked about it, a lot of women in general, black women, white women, were just lost to history. And so you did the hard work of finding them. And it’s so great to just read, oh, they were there. They were there. Jesus was saving them. They were doing work. We just don’t know about it. But they were there. And you’ve given women and black women and young girls, you know, of all races, women to follow after, and so highly recommend it.

Jackie Hill Perry
What’s the goal? What’s the point? You know, cuz I think people could be so distracted by all of the like, craziness, that we’ve forgotten what the point is, you know, and so why should I read these resources? Why should I try to have a conversation? Why is it wrong to limit the amount of history that we teach about our country, our nation, IT systems, its laws, like, what are we what are we at? What are we risking? By not engaging in this discussion? In a godly, healthy way? I don’t know how to phrase that. Yeah, prettier. But I guess I just want to reorient us back to why does this even matter?

Jasmine Holmes
It’s the supremacy of Christ. Because so often the way that we tell history and experience history in this country, centers the supremacy of American values, and centers, the supremacy of our nationalism, and the more that we learn about the ugliness of our past, and the way that in spite of that God still has worked in amazing ways in this country, takes America off the pedestal, takes the cape off of Uncle Sam, and puts Christ at the center where he belongs. It’s one of the best ways that I found to do that is to just say, You know what, like, I know that you’re proud to be an American, but there’s some ugly things that really impact people to this day, still, like right now, like outside of your door, like in your church. Because ultimately, America is not gonna it can’t save you.

Jasmine Holmes
Critical Race Theory. It cannot save you, Marxism. It cannot save you. It’s Jesus. And it’s all about pointing to him and the ways in which he is active in a diverse array of lives and stories. I didn’t know that when I was a kid. I thought Jesus was mostly you know, doing stuff with white people. And I was super lucky because I got to be the exception to the rule. That’s really what I thought one of the best parts about writing Carved In Ebony was just that redemptive in my first book, mother, mother to son was just that redemptive recentering, not of the black experience, but of Jesus. And I think we missed that when we sent her white American exceptionalism as the norm.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah. Yeah. And well, for me, it’s part of if I love my neighbor as myself, one way I feel loved is when people try to understand my perspective. So to me, I’m trying to do that with my brothers and sisters in Christ all the time, because we’re one body, yeah, I mean, like we we are all part of one body. So I want to understand and love my neighbor as myself. So it’s loving God because He created we know and we know what the kingdom is going to look like it’s going to be every tongue tribe and nation will be praising his name together. But you know, we all have stories. And I think it’s just part of knowing one another and loving one another. Well,

Jackie Hill Perry
And I would add, I think is in Jesus’, his high priestly prayer, he prays that may they be one like you and I are one so that they may believe that you sent me is that right? Yeah. So that our oneness isn’t apologetic, really, there are black, religious cults that are being created and are thriving, because of the church’s response to race thriving. Because what they see is a church that does not look like God, a church that does not look loving a church that does not love justice, a church that does not care for mercy at the expense of their own comfort. And so I think that’s what we’re risking, is people actually wanting the gospel, or our Gospel, rather, even when I was reading earlier this year, the Autobiography of Malcolm X.

Jackie Hill Perry
I think it was one of the chapters, he was just talking about how he viewed Christianity as tragic and why the Muslim faith was so compelling. And I thought to myself, I was like, wow, if white supremacy wasn’t so rich in white Christian churches, would he have even been a Muslim? Yeah, that was the question like, would he have wanted Jesus if he actually saw diversity and saw love and saw dignity? Like,

Jasmine Holmes
Yeah, I think that’s what won him over in the end was going overseas, going to Mecca and seeing how the Muslim faith united people across ethnicities and cultures was so impactful to him. And I should have been having that experience over here.

Jackie Hill Perry
Yeah. And you have people that will say, Well, it’s because he’s totally depraved. He’s not elect. It’s like, yeah, you have to know that our behavior, our ethics, the way we live, is a part of our gospel presentation, not just our doctrine. Yeah. Right.

Melissa Kruger
What’s your life and doctrine?

Jackie Hill Perry
Exactly? Why would I believe your God? Yeah. If you don’t seem to obey the things that you say, Your God legislators, and so that we’re risking a whole lot?

Jasmine Holmes
Namely the gods. Yeah. If even if we go into that, like intense, Calvinistic, well, he just wasn’t like, Okay, but what is the what is the Bible say about teachers who lead people astray? It’s better to be thrown into talking about that millstone tied around your neck. Yeah. Or are you are you leading people astray? With with how you are living out?

Melissa Kruger
Yeah. And that they’re supposed to actually know. We’re Christians, because how we love one another.

Jackie Hill Perry
The world sees us. Yeah, they are watching. Yeah, they are watching and they are not impressed.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah. Yeah. And so I think, may we be a church that can have these conversations and love one another?

Jackie Hill Perry
Well, the beautiful thing is, Jesus, pray to the Father. And God is going to answer Jesus Prayer. Yeah. So the work that he started in us in the true Church, I’m not talking about those who are culturally Christians, right, but in the real Christians that are bearing fruit, as is in line with the gospel of Jesus Christ, the work that God started in us He will finish Yeah, period. Amen.

Jasmine Holmes
What is your favorite staycation?

Jackie Hill Perry
I know sometimes I don’t like vacations. I’ll do them. I just don’t prefer them. Because again, I’m at home. But I don’t know. I think I enjoyed them a lot when I lived in Chicago. Because me and Preston, his first anniversary was a staycation. And because Chicago has a lot to do so like we just explored the city we ate at different places. We took a bunch of pictures. Atlanta is not an interesting it’s just not as cool. So as vacation doesn’t feel as as fun. I just kind of didn’t make that cute. Yes. I don’t like vacations here. Obviously. Chicago. Yes.

Jasmine Holmes
All right. We get it Jackie, you’re from the big city. That’s bigger. I think it’s bigger than Jackson.

Jackie Hill Perry
From St. Louis. You don’t have a or Trader Joe’s or an ALDI

Melissa Kruger
Send Jasmine food.

Jasmine Holmes
Please do. Melissa, what about your favorite vacation?

Melissa Kruger
Well, I read it I mean, or thing I wish. I’m not good staycations because I wish I would just go to fun restaurants and hang out read books. I ended up that clause. said I should clean that closet. I’m terrible. I’m terrible. I started all the things that the drawers that bother me so I need. Really if I’m going to have a vacation, I have to go away. staycation. I’m a terrible vacationer. I just start working like you know, on the things that you can’t go to in your normal. You still write in your city

Melissa Kruger
I just don’t feel rested. I wish I’d have to actually go to a hotel if I went to a hotel in my city. Well, that’s what I thought a staycation was…

Jackie Hill Perry
If you’re at home, you’re just at home.

Melissa Kruger
Okay, I would go out stand uptown, Charlotte. I would do that.

Jasmine Holmes
It is actually in our neighborhood. It’s an old house that was converted to a bed and breakfast. It is a two minute drive from our house for you. They do and it’s really nice. And we love to go there we go there every just about every year. And just you know, have a night away from the kids.

Melissa Kruger
That’s nice. Just chill.

Jackie Hill Perry
Away from the laundry.

Melissa Kruger
Yes. Nice.

Jasmine Holmes
It’s nice. That’s good. Yeah, it’s a FairView Inn. It’s nice. That’s cool.

Jackie Hill Perry
Ain’t got no Chipotle though. No. Nope. Sorry. I hope it’s gonna be guacamole in heaven. I’m believing God.

Jasmine Holmes
Amen. It is time to talk about our sponsor for this season of Let’s Talk Crossway Books. Yeah, we have a lot of books to discuss. Our book to discuss today is demystifying decision making a practical guide by Amy Joseph. Melissa, tell us all about it. Because I want my decision making exactly mystified

Melissa Kruger
Well, actually. And this book is part of the Crossway/TGC partnership. So I got to work with Amy some on this. So I got to hear it from the beginning and talk to her about it and got to see it kind of develop it’s great book. It’s it’s helpful. Just on how do we make decisions? You know, we talked about this on Let’s Talk. And either season one or two, like how do we decide what to do? And I find it’s one of the biggest? Yeah, in the 20s and 30s.

Melissa Kruger
You’re making so many big life decisions, but all of life, you’re making decisions, you know. And so it’s a book that kind of helps you sort through, how do I make a decision? What does it look like to make a good decision? How do I listen to the Spirit? When I make a decision? How do I find good wisdom from others to make a decision? So it’s really helpful on all of these things? So if you’re making decisions, even if it’s, you know, which yogurt pick, yeah, because there’s a lot of yogurt choices. There are a lot of you have a choice. So it’s it’s on how do we how do we do that?

Jasmine Holmes
What decisions that we’ll have to make is how do we buy this book?

Melissa Kruger
That’s good. How do we find it?

Jackie Hill Perry
Well if it was five years ago, you could probably walk into a bookstore with the way you Amazon lovers set up, you ruined all of our abilities to walk into your brilliant stores all over the country. But we thank God for Google. And on Google, you can go to crossway.org/plus and there you can find out how to get 30% off demystifying decision making because the saints love a deal. Alright, y’all, thank you for listening to today’s episode of Let’s Talk next week we are going to have a conversation about how to identify false teaching