Let’s Talk: When Others Fall Away

Melissa Kruger

You almost see it starting to happen before it happens. The slow isolation of a person like they just stopped coming in small group, then they stop coming to church. And there’s always a reason, you know, but there’s this slow isolation. And so then you’re like blast lifeboat left in their life. And I do you think one of the ways is just to keep saying, hey, you need to be come to church. Yeah. Because maybe it will be the preachers word that Sunday, that gets to them because the word is going to speak. Yes, the spirit is going to move through, hopefully, through the word being taught, or even. I mean, I have a lot of people, I just say, hey, just come come to Bible study. Just keep coming. Don’t stop coming. Yeah, I think the more we can invite them, and make them feel welcome. Maybe the word will speak at some point.

Jackie Hill Perry

Welcome to episode three of Let’s Talk, a podcast for women from The Gospel Coalition Podcast Network, where we seek to apply biblical wisdom to everyday life. I’m Jackie Hill, Perry, and I’m here with the Jasmine homes and the Melissa Kruger so far, we’ve talked about work and boundaries. And Melissa, tell us what we’ll be talking about today.

Melissa Kruger

Today’s kind of a hard topic, personal topic.

Jackie Hill Perry

We tend to do those a lot.

Melissa Kruger

I know we do. And these were, this was one of the ones that our listeners to then what do we do when others fall away? Or what does it even mean? Maybe? What are we even talking about? When we talk about our friends? Who have we thought we’re walking with the Lord. So that’s different from people who just don’t know the Lord, but people in our lives that we thought were walking with the Lord. And then they either walk away altogether? Or maybe their actions, they walk away from God, it seems through how they’re living or whatever. Have you experienced that? In your labs? It feels like it’s a very common thing right now.

Jasmine Holmes

Yeah, it does feel really common right now. And not in the sense, I want to be careful how I say that, because I don’t want to downplay the fact that people really are struggling with the faith and really are moving away walking away. I don’t want to make it sound like oh, it’s common right now. Like, oh, it’s so trendy. But I do think that part of it is just where we are right now with the pandemic, and the isolation that we’ve been feeling. I think that that has a lot to do with with some of the amount of it’s that’s happening right now. This is a hard season for a lot of people. And it feels like walking away is one of the reactions was happening.

Melissa Kruger

Yeah. Yeah. Why do you think the pandemic exposed it?

Jackie Hill Perry

Yeah, I think it’s, it’s, it’s loneliness and being separated from believers. It’s a part of it. In Hebrews 3:13, it says, But exhort one another every day, as long as it is today that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. And that’s heavy to say that me being apart from those who could exhort me and challenge me, and encourage me in the faith, that that somehow leaves room for sin to deceive me. And so I think that’s a huge part of it. There’s just us being separated from one another. But I don’t think that that’s ultimately to blame. Right. You know, because you have John on the island of Patmos, you have Yeah, you have all kinds of instances and Scriptures where people did go prisons of isolation, right? But they still remained in the faith.

Jasmine Holmes

Maybe it revealed what was already there. Sure, what was already kind of easier to hide. So many times, I think, in my life as because I’ve been a Christian, for most of my life. I had felt like I was faking, like everybody else was okay. And everybody else was seems like they weren’t doubting and seems like they were fine. And so I felt pressure to continue to act like everything was okay and act like everything was fine. And eventually, I broke down and someone was there. But if I had broken down and nobody had been there, I don’t know what would have happened because it’s such a burden to carry to just continuously be faking that you’re okay. Because you’re in community and you want the people that are around you to think that you’re okay.

Jackie Hill Perry

That’s one part of me. I was sharing this with Preston recently, one part of me appreciates when people come out and publicly say, I am I’m not a Christian, or I’m deconstructing my faith, because it’s honest. You know, you have a lot of people who are out here who feel the same way but they continue to pastor Yeah, or continue to minister continue to, you know, do all the Christian things when their hearts are really far from God. And so part of me feels like that’s a better place to be is in a place of honesty where now your friends can deal with you as you really are. Yeah, then a place of like deceit and hiddenness.

Melissa Kruger

Yeah. Because it, it does seem like we’ve almost attached shame to doubt. So how can the church be a better receiver of people who just are doubting? Yeah, it feels like sometimes people feel like they have to go outside the church community to get answers to their doubt, or maybe that’s how they try to deal with it. I always try to even tell my kids and it’s okay to have doubts. You know, I mean, I think it’s normal, like, because there is this thing that you’re putting faith in what you can’t see. Yeah, I mean, so you’re, you’re we’re all, we’re all living our lives for something that’s not yet realized. And so I think doubt makes sense. But it seemed like, you’ve even felt like you’ve had to hide it. And that there’s this sense of, I can’t tell other people. I’m struggling with doubt. And then by the time has gotten so far gone, right? It’s almost too late. So how can the church be a welcoming place for doubters, or questioners or ask you people who are asking?

Jasmine Holmes

Part of it, I think is I, so I grew up in my dad is an apologist. So I grew up around apologetics. Everything was be prepared to give an answer. And so part of the struggle that I find with people who fall away from the faith is that we want to give the same canned answers that we would give to somebody who’s just starting to explore the faith. And they’ve already heard, they’ve heard all that already. They’ve watched the videos, they’ve gone through the courses, they’ve heard the sermons they’ve. And so I think, going back to just the power of the Spirit and our conversations with people, as opposed to just giving canned answers. Because the canned answers are usually what led that person to this place.

Melissa Kruger

Yeah, and I think, I think what’s interesting now, what you were just saying reminded me actually of a blogpost my husband wrote, and he said, what’s missing from a lot of sermons is persuasion, not to the non Christian, but to the believer. Like, we have forgotten that every Sunday, you and I need to be re persuaded that what we believe is true, again, because we’re frail. That’s why we, we need not to go too long leading together so that we can hear reminders of No, no, this is really true. And this is really good news. And, but, but that even if people preaching or whether we’re teaching or whatever, could remember, it’s not just the non Christian who needs to be persuaded of the truth of Christianity, but the Christian does, not just so that they can go share with someone else but for their own soul. Maybe. And I think we forget that.

Jackie Hill Perry

Yeah, most of the New Testament is that,

Melissa Kruger

Yeah, because Paul’s writing letters to believers, yeah, to remind them.

Jackie Hill Perry

And Jude, he says, toward the end of his letter, have mercy on those who doubt meaning have compassion. On those who doubt. That’s kind of not what we think we should do. You say, you know, rebuke those who doubt or challenge those who doubt and that is compassionate, depending on if wisdom calls for it in that moment, you know, but I think there has to be a kind of empathy that says, you know, what, I struggle believing that God is good, and real and true to that. Everything I’m doing in this earth submitting my body as a living sacrifice, that that’s actually just that’s not in vain. Like, there is a crown laid up for me somewhere, you know, so

Melissa Kruger

Where do we see cases of this in the Bible? Like, is this a surprise everywhere?

Jasmine Holmes

Yeah. Israel — over and over again and Israel? I get so frustrated with Israel, and then I’m like, it’s you totally. It’s you. Like, you’re literally sitting there like he just part of the Red Sea. And you’re just gonna doubt him. And it’s like, what did he do for you that you’re now doubting him? Yeah, um, Israel’s the best. Best example ever.

Melissa Kruger

Yeah. We even we get the New Testament, you’ve got Judas. I mean, when I think about it, he walked with Jesus for three years. He he when the 72 were sent out, he was one of them. Yeah, healing, and I’m assuming doing miracles or somehow he was he looked like a legit design. Yes, definitely. But show that when Jesus said, one of you is gonna, you know, deny me, they’re all like, is it I Lord?

Jasmine Holmes

Right? Yeah. And they were like, well, we know it’s Judas, Judas, you

Melissa Kruger

You know, and sometimes I think pridefully Oh, I’d recognize I know who it’s gonna be like that person. And there are signs like we all can see. But I think I think I think the hardest people are people that we didn’t see coming. And sometimes that can really shake us. You know, I mean, we had a friend who was in our house all the time, and just a few years ago walked away from the faith. I mean, this is person in our life. Yeah. I sat under Bible studies from this person. Yeah, I was in small group, but this person, and they just decided they didn’t want to do this anymore. And it’s tough. I mean, and I felt I felt a little bit. Like, what did I miss? What did I miss? And so I feel better when I read that all 11 disciples must do this, too. Yeah. Like, it wasn’t like, it’s not always. It’s not always the person you think it’s gonna be?

Jackie Hill Perry

Yeah. But then there’s the person like Peter, who you might have expected to fall away forever. Yeah, you know, but Jesus comes and says, you know, Satan has, you know, come to me that he might say, if you like, we, but I’ve prayed for you that your faith would not fail. Yeah. And that’s been a bomb, as people have been falling away from the faith around me. Where it’s like, Man, I need to be praying that their faith might be failing now. Yeah, but I need to pray that it would not fail forever. Yeah, you know, even if they’re going through the season now where there’s a legit failure to trust and believe and hold on to faith, that if they’re 6070 8090, that they’ll believe again. Yeah. And God is faithful.

Jasmine Holmes

Is it? Yeah, it’s important to remember that these stories are not over. Because I think that they can cause us to doubt, right, like, you hear the story of somebody who was a faithful teacher of the word falling away, and you’re like, Okay, what does that mean, for me? What does that mean for but God knows what the end of the story is? We don’t even know yet. Like, we’re just that one part of it. Yeah. And I have to remind myself of that, otherwise, I kind of get into cycles of like, okay, okay, so, when am I gonna follow? When am I gonna fall away? Like, how’s it gonna look when I do? There’s also, I think, a spectrum of doubt. Right? So Judas doubted to the point of betraying Jesus. Thomas doubted to the point of just embarrassing himself. But like, I think some people, you know, fall away for a short season, some people fall away for a longest ages. It’s such a Yeah, we don’t know how it ends.

Melissa Kruger

Yeah. Have you had friends who fell away for a season and came back? Not yet. Yeah, I was sure. I was just thinking about that. I haven’t had many. Yeah, not. Yeah.

Jasmine Holmes

Yeah. It’s hard from I come from a very, super conservative background. And so when my friends run away from Christianity, they run hard. Like, yeah, big and run hard. Yeah. So it’s just

Melissa Kruger

I’ve seen some more what I will say I’ve seen come back are teenagers who rebelled, like, you know, all through their teen years in college. And then now as adults, I’ve seen them come back that I’ve seen more of, but as adults who have walked away, it’s been hard. I mean, I still pray there’s still friends. I continue to pray for that the Lord would bring them back.

Jackie Hill Perry

But and I bet there’s more reasons to then just, you know, playing all rebellion. I think there’s a level of shame, too. Yeah. Yeah. You know, if the Lord does begin to soften their heart, and they start to see, man, the world isn’t as satisfying as I believe it would be or, you know, the doctrine that I had been ingesting by scoffers was actually lies. But will the church accept me? Yeah, if I come back, and would they be there were open arms. And I think that’s why we have to constantly be a refuge for people in those seasons. Yep. So that when they do return, they know who to go to. And they feel safe and saying, Hey, I’m back. Can you help me?

Melissa Kruger

I’m not a lost cause.

Jasmine Holmes

Yeah. Not just like cutting people off because their doubt makes us uncomfortable. Yeah. Thank you talk more about that, like, the world the lore of the world, the passion element there.

Jackie Hill Perry

Yeah, it’s a thing because I think it’s, it’s we’re prone to believe that it’s just people have somehow that they’re attracted to like theological error, that it’s just that, but it’s like, even in Timothy, it says that they will accumulate teachers that suit their passions. And Paul says that there are passions, that wage war against our souls. It’s that, you know, the teaching that appeals is the teaching that connects with what they believe in their heart or what they want, you know, so whether that’s worldliness, and all that that entails.

Jackie Hill Perry

So you know, the lust of the flesh, the pride of life, the lust of the eyes, all those things, it’s, you know, of course, I’m going to ascribe to a progressive sexual ethic, if I don’t want to give my body to the Lord, of course, I’m going to say that, you know, God isn’t real, perhaps, if I would like to be the Lord and the God of my life, right? Like, those types of doctrines make sense when you want to be the ruler of your own kingdom. And so I think that’s why even in our are walking with certain friends, it’s not just having the right argumentation, to keep them in the faith, doctrine matters. But we also need to address the idols that exist in their hearts that makes these idols attractive are these these types of doctrines attractive?

Jackie Hill Perry

What I think is also like community is huge man. Like one of the things I’ve consistently seen with people that fall away, it isn’t just doctrine. It isn’t just passions, but also their community, their friendships. In Psalms one, it talks about, blessed are those who don’t sit in the seat of scoffers. And I’ve seen where when you get in a group of people that are always scoffing at the Bible, and it’s Christians and the church, or if you are obsessed with all the Tick Tock videos that come out that always have something to say about the faith that does something to your heart, you know, because it stirs up or it just allows your unbelief to seem rational.

Jasmine Holmes

Yeah, let it fester. Yeah. I have found because, you know, I’m 31 years old, but I’m still on Tik Tok. Yeah, yes, you know, my mother 65. And she’s there every day. Well, that makes me feel better. That does, he loves it. Um, I’m like, I always I would tell my kids at school, I’d be like, Yeah, I was watching this video, and like, where maybe like, video or video that I was watching.

Melissa Kruger

You wouldn’t know it,

Jasmine Holmes

you wouldn’t know what I’m talking about. But sometimes, you know, I’ll be scrolling. And because algorithms are really smart. You know, they give me the content that I’m looking for. There’s a lot of cooking content, a lot of cute baby content. I’ll see stuff that I’m you know, incident that I that I want to know more about. And sometimes I’ll scroll and it will be like a video that’s discrediting or seeking to discredit a biblical truth. Sometimes I’m in a place where I watch them and think through them. But honestly, sometimes, I’m in place where I don’t, because I’m like, I’m not in the place to listen to scoffers right now. That’s just not where I’m at. I know that my flesh is weak at this moment. Yeah. And so I’m gonna keep on scrolling.

Jackie Hill Perry

It’s called guarding your heart. Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa Kruger

And being aware. What a what is like, I could be the one who falls away. Like I don’t I mean, I think the scriptures give warnings for a good reason. You know, consider your ways. Think about these things. Yeah, I mean, there. There is this warning author, Hebrews. Don’t fall away. Let me tell you why Jesus is better. Jesus is better than Moses. He’s better than the angels. Yeah, he’s better than the law. He’s better. And I think we have to even be as friends saying that to one another. Yeah, this is better. But the world’s tempting. It is.

Melissa Kruger

I mean, it is coming at us. Yes. The the parable of the sower is really interesting one go Babe Ruth, go back and read it. And because it says, Here there are there were four different option. When they hear the word of the kingdom, they don’t understand it, the evil one may come and snatch away what’s been sown. That’s what sent along the path. As for the one that sent on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet has no root. He endures for a while, but when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, he immediately falls away. So there’s that as one reason, then the person who has sent among the thorns, that’s the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and deceitful niches, deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves them fruitful.

Melissa Kruger

And then you have the good soil, the one who hears the word and understands that He bears fruit Neil’s in one case, 100 fold and another 60 and another 30. And yet, it’s like the scripture. Jesus was preparing them. Yeah, the word is gonna go out. And some are gonna look like the Yeah, they’re there. But I thought it was really interesting that it was persecution, which I’ve seen cares of the world, and deceitfulness of riches. Yes. Yeah. Have you all seen those three types?

Jackie Hill Perry

I wouldn’t even say riches and term terms of money, but just prosperity and ease. Yes, that comes with it. Yes. You know, I just want to be comfortable in my life and the Christian faith. caused me to a level of discomfort that I’m unwilling to embrace. Yeah,

Jasmine Holmes

yeah, yeah. And I do think sometimes, as I’m just kind of like mulling over the aspect of guarding our hearts, and I want to be really careful to say that what we’re not saying is that you can’t ask questions, right? What we’re not saying is that you shouldn’t be ready with an answer, because the Bible literally tells us to be ready to answer. But there’s a difference between a question that has come up in your own life and your own heart. And a question that you’re allowing to be sown there by a scoffer. And by somebody whose intention is to draw you away. Because we we come up with enough questions on our own. Oh, yeah. You know, without surrounding ourselves, people who are constantly just fueling and picking and fueling

Melissa Kruger

Yes, yeah, I think there’s a question of faith that says, kind of understand, I don’t understand why you sent the Israelites in. And they killed all the Canaanites. Like, I think that’s fair. I mean, you look at scripture, and it’s pretty bloody. I mean, yeah, it but there’s a way to ask that and faith, like, I’m sure. I’m sure there’s a reason I’m sure I don’t. It’s my perspective that’s off. And then there’s a way that is like, I’m judging God.

Jackie Hill Perry

Yeah. Right. Like an accusation? Yes.

Melissa Kruger

Like, you can’t be good. If you ordered your people to do this. That’s, that’s going to war with God. And so when we start to clear what he can or can’t be, it’s like we’re judging him. And that’s a different thing than I think an honest, hey, these passages are really confusing. Yeah. Can we talk about it?

Melissa Kruger

That’s a really different I think, I’m just thinking about like, Jackie, your book and holy, like, this is God, we’re talking about. So we’ve got to I mean, there’s a level of respect and some sense, we can question. But it is good to remember. He is going to be right in the way he does things. I think a lot of times, we’ve turned around, you know, what was the old sermon, sinners in the hands have an angry God, and we’ve made it God in the hands of an angry center. You know, like we’ve turned in our cultural moment, like questioning God in a accusatory way, which I think it’s good to, to work on that. If that’s how we’re coming at God, he can take it. I’m not saying that. And we should, with our friends walk through them with that. But it’s not a good sign of what’s going on our heart.

Jasmine Holmes

Because even in this office when he questions Yeah, it’s like, this is what I know your character to be. Yeah. This seems not to be going along with your character to help me. Yeah. Not like, you’re unrighteous. You’re doing the wrong thing. Get together. God. That’s right. Like, that’s not the tone of this honest. That’s right. No matter how much he wrestles, and he wrestles a lot.

Melissa Kruger

Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. Well, how do we tell the difference? It’s almost easier what we’ve talked about so far, somebody maybe who just says, I have doubts. I don’t believe anymore. And they walk away completely. I think what we also see culturally today is a lot of people are like, Jesus and are we are good. But I’m going to live however I want. And Jesus is okay with that. We’ve talked about it. Yeah, we’re, he’s fine with me. I’m fine with him. But I don’t have to live by the Bible.

Jackie Hill Perry

Yeah, that’s rough. Those are, those are probably harder. Much harder, because it’s easier to discuss, you know, reality with someone who says, No, I do believe that God has a law. I’m just not gonna live according to it. Cool. Like, we go on somewhere. Yeah. Versus the person that says, no, like, you know, like, Jesus. That’s not a problem. Yeah, loves me. Yep. Um, but I think we just have to go back to the tax. Yeah, we have to go back to the book and say, What is the evidence that God is okay with that? Yeah. You know, what, what is what is the evidence that morality does not matter. And when it comes to those who say that they know, Jesus, like, anyone who has been born of God, will not continue and say, the whole book of First John really kind of kills that entire argument, because he’s consistently saying, no, if you follow God, if you walk after him, you will be like Him. You know?

Melissa Kruger

So what do you do with that person?

Jasmine Holmes

It’s a different conversation. It’s a different conversation, because it’s like, okay, well, you’re saying that you believe. Yeah, but the Scriptures say this. So what you what you want from God isn’t lining up with what God’s asking of you. So what are you gonna do? Yeah, that’s right.

Jackie Hill Perry

And I was just talking to Jasmine about this, I think What makes this difficult is when you’re the only person challenging this? You know, I think that’s the burden of the church. Yeah, is when you have more than one voice saying, look at the text, look at God, look at his law, look at his righteousness, follow after Him be empowered by the Spirit. So you could walk it by a spirit. Like, if it’s just me, you could probably argue that away. Yep. But when it’s in the context of church, where church discipline is the thing and all the stuff, then I think you have more voices by which you have to see hmm, maybe I am being deceived, right, and how I think the Christian faith should be lived out. Yeah. But usually when a person has gotten to that place, they’re also separated from community.

Melissa Kruger

There’s a proverb that says he who isolates himself, set some self against all good desire or something like that. Yeah, it’s like that. You almost see, it’s starting to happen before it happens. The slow isolation of a person, like they just stopped coming to small group, then they stop coming to church. And there’s always a reason, you know, but there’s this slow isolation. And so then you’re like the last lifeboat left in their life. And I do think one of the ways is just to keep saying, hey, you need to be come to church. Yeah. Because maybe it will be the preachers word that Sunday, that gets to them because the word is going to speak.

Melissa Kruger

Yeah, the spirit is going to move through, hopefully, through the word being taught or even. I mean, I have a lot of people, I just say, hey, just come to Bible study. Just keep coming. Don’t stop coming. Yeah, I think the more we can invite them in. Hopefully make them feel welcome. Maybe the word will speak at some point, even if our art Yeah, because sometimes the front on front confronting, hey, you’re living with your boyfriend? Yeah, you’re doing all these things that don’t seem in line with the scriptures. Just makes him feel like well, now I can’t come. They’re all judge me. Yeah. It’s not like there’s not a place for that at some point. But I do think the more we can keep saying, Come, come. Yeah. And trust the spirit to.

Jackie Hill Perry

And I think we have to take our cues from Jesus, and how often he prayed for the disciples, and prays for us. You know, like he is constantly interceding, even Moses, Israel was a very stiff necked people. And he was always going to God about them. Yeah. As soon as they like, as soon as God told him, Hey, the downstairs are down down the mountain, making the calf He intercedes for the people, you know. And it’s like, I think we are so pragmatic and practical, that we start to find the TGC bloggs. And how do I do this? How do I do that, and that’s helpful. But we neglect to pray to the God who is the only one that can change a heart heart, he literally is the only one that can do it. And so I think having a posture and a disposition of prayer that says, God, I’m gonna do what I can do, but I know ultimately, you can. Only you can water this thing.

Jasmine Holmes

I think that’s huge. Taking the responsibility off of your own shoulders. Because I can’t keep anybody in the face. I can’t even keep myself on the face.

Jackie Hill Perry

Hello?

Jasmine Holmes

That’s the Holy Spirit doing that.

Jasmine Holmes

So how am I going to be trying to keep Suzy and Bob and Cameron in the face? That’s the face. That’s right. So really, there is so much of so much prayer that needs to take place, and so much humility on our part that needs to take place, that we don’t have to have the magic thing to say we just have to be faithful. And we have to pray we have to call to repentance is able sinners in the hands of an angry god, you mentioned that a few minutes ago.

Jasmine Holmes

And I was like, this is a perfect example of how not to talk to somebody who’s in this in the sense that so many times when people fall away, we make it more about us than it is about them. So people fall away, and instead of grieving, and praying and pursuing we’re like, oh, somebody fell away. Now it’s my Christian job to be really obnoxious and rebuke them and let them know that they’re going to Hell yeah. And yeah, I don’t know how they’re gonna take that. I don’t care. pat myself on the back and I move on from that. But I think how much more powerful it would be instead to maintain a place in that person’s life and to be available to so many people for whom I’m just available. Yeah, they know what I think they are their convictions are. But I’m here Yeah. Whenever Whenever you’re ready to talk. Whenever you need. I’m here.

Melissa Kruger

Yeah. And I think to that prayer, for ask for the Lord to send out workers to the harvest. Yeah, sometimes what I love seeing happen And this is one of our friends who walked away and he’s still walking away. But we were just praying for him praying for him praying for him. And we found out another Christian had got met him, was asked him some questions and it was just evident. God was still putting people in his life. Yeah, even when he didn’t want to be talking to us. God was putting people there. And so I think it might be on their plane trip, it might be in the grocery store. Yeah, sometimes I think it’s great just to pray, we you please put, like they will you chase after them with your people. And I know your kingdom is big. And just make them uncomfortable. Yeah, yeah. I pray that all the time for my kids.

Jackie Hill Perry

What are your thoughts on this, um, people ultimately fall away because of unbelief. Right that they have, they just don’t trust God, his worth in His Word. But I think we have to acknowledge how much suffering and church hurt is a big part of why people stop believing God and the scriptures. So how do we also wrestle with the reality of why people choose to disassociate themselves from the Christian church, when the Christian church at times hasn’t been that Christian?

Melissa Kruger

I think there’s a real reality that certain people will have to answer for just like we say, I know that God saved you. But it was Jackie, who shared the gospel with me. And that’s why I’m a Christian. You know, I’m saying like, there’s, there was a agent who spoke the gospel to me, and I’m so thankful for, you know, the people, we all had people in our lives, who taught us the way, I think there are some people who will be held responsible for turning people away for the faith, because of their actions. So we know their unbelief, is their own heart, heart at some level, but you could be the human agent. But that drives them further into unbelief, and woe to us to be that person. But there’s the reality, we were talking about it earlier.

Melissa Kruger

Yeah. If you teach one of these little ones to sin, it will be better than a millstone will be tattooed around your neck, and you cast into the ocean. So there are people teaching wrong things to people. And, one, we don’t want to be those people. But I think there will be an accounting for people who have it with church hurt and things and I want to say I understand it, I think we’ve all walked through deep, deep, church hurt, that you can understand, I can understand my going to church can feel like the biggest act of faith just to walk in the doors on a Sunday morning, because of the hurt you’ve experienced there. And I think we’d all say we understand it. But yet we all say, believe in Jesus more than you believe in the church, meaning like the

Jackie Hill Perry

He’s the perfect one.

Melissa Kruger

There are situations that happen that are really painful. But it is faith. It is a step of faith to keep walking into the church and believing this is the place God has ordained for me to grow. And so I want to be there. I want to grow there. And I think that’s what we’ve all chosen after hard situations. Yeah. But I just want to say to people who have had that. I do understand. I mean, it’s when it’s a spiritual leader who has hurt you and deep ways, it can be hard to trust again.

Jackie Hill Perry

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that’s human.

Jasmine Holmes

And that acknowledgement is important. I think not like being like, what hypocrisy in the church. I don’t know what you’re talking about. Like, that’s not going to be helpful to anybody. So I think being honest about Yeah, I see that I see that hurt. I see the thing that you see, you’re not crazy. I’ve also experienced that thing that you’ve experienced, you’re not alone goes a long way,

Jackie Hill Perry

There’s something redemptive about that. Yes, absolutely. Because I think again, our 10 our tendency is to teach rather than to just be present, right? And so there are some situations where a person is wrestling, and it’s wiser to just sit there and say, I’m sorry. I’m sorry. Yeah, we don’t even gotta go to Romans Ephesians. Yet, yeah, it’s simply I’m weeping with those who weep. And in that moment, I am being like Jesus to that person and helping them see His grace and His kindness and compassion in a moment when they need it most.

Jasmine Holmes

Like Jesus with Lazarus when he died … he wasn’t like now I’m going to preach a sermon about how death is temporary. And Lazarus is going to heaven. And this in this kingdom is temporary and all know why all crying because no I’m about to die in three days, I’m raise up, and it’s not a big deal to me like, no, he entered into those feelings and those emotions and love that about him. And that’s such a good example that I think we so often as believers forget to follow. We act like Jesus was the stoic, like always. I don’t know, just like he never acknowledged pain or hurt, or sadness. When he really did.

Melissa Kruger

And I think that’s why and we’ve talked about this before, he was so bothered by the leaders of Israel, because he knows that how the leaders act, they’re supposed to shepherd the people. And you know what you see in Ezekiel, he’s so angry, God is so upset, you have not taken care of my sheep, you have fattened yourselves on them, rather than bind up their wounds and heal their hurts. And he said, So guess what, I’m going to come and I’m going to be the Good Shepherd, and I’m going to care for the sheep.

Melissa Kruger

And so I think, hopefully, we can keep pointing people to Jesus. Even when the shepherds of the Church of Christ haven’t done what they have, should have done, that the over the over Shepherd, Jesus is the he’s the king. He’s the Prophet. He’s the priests we’re looking for in him. But I think it’s hard because I think we lose sight of Jesus sometimes, you know, in these conversations with people and it becomes, well, how’s your doctrine, or how’s your life or whatever, and we say, instead of continually inviting them, you can still come back, you can still come back. It’s okay. If Yeah, we want you back.

Jasmine Holmes

Yeah. And not in any way, not in like a, you know, I’m checking, I’m checking my boxes kind of way, like if your friend is on Twitter, or Instagram or wherever, and it’s like, I’ve walked away from the face. There’s like, I know, I haven’t talked to you in six months. And I haven’t checked on you in the hardship that you’ve been going through, that helps lead to this place. But you’re going to hell.

Jackie Hill Perry

That doesn’t exist, though.

Jasmine Holmes

It really, it’s like, Where were you when I was suffering? Where were you? before it got to this point?

Melissa Kruger

Yeah. Yeah. How have your friendships change? When someone walks away?

Jackie Hill Perry

Oh, they changed a lot. I’ve, in my experience, I saw the change before the the apostate message was confessed, if that makes sense. Yeah. And so you know, just not really texting me back or not coming around, not liking pictures on Instagram, like, there’s just a shift. And it’s hurtful, to be honest, because it’s like, I love you, you know, and these are most likely people that you spent time with, and shared deep things with at times, or meals, and just all the things and so forth to change. But I also understand, because I actually reached out to a friend last week, and shared how I understand that there had to be a change in our relationship.

Jackie Hill Perry

And what I said was, I can see how it can feel uncomfortable to be around somebody like me, who has a different worldview than you. I can see how that just doesn’t, right, that doesn’t match the the MO that you’re on. I was like, but even then, I love you still, you know, and so I’m acknowledging I get it. Yeah, like, I can’t, I’m gonna take it personal. But I’m not gonna take it personal. Yeah. Because if I was, if I was distant from God, I wouldn’t want to be around Christians either. Yeah. Why would I? Yeah, you’re reminding me and making my conscience flare up, and that’s uncomfortable.

Jasmine Holmes

Yeah, I have someone in my life. Oh, sorry. I have someone in my life who is no longer a believer, grew up in the church, and is just no longer there. And he is very hostile towards Christians and Christianity. But because of God’s grace, in my ability to remain present in his life, he’s like, I really don’t like Christians. But I like you. Because I know you mean what you say. And I’m really not into like, I don’t really do God. But I like you. Because what you believe about God makes you act a certain way that I that I see that I observe. It’s a scary thing to have somebody who doesn’t believe in your life because they’re watching you. Yeah. And they’re noticing you and they’re blocking you. Sometimes it makes them uncomfortable and they stop coming around you. Sometimes they’re like nitpicking and looking for hypocrisy. Sometimes there’s so even just staying in proximity to to someone who no longer believes is in itself a testimony.

Melissa Kruger

Yeah, that’s right. I think sometimes you’re hoping I’ll be that friend they can turn to when they do find themselves, perhaps alone, and the world’s not working for them anymore. I mean, I hope to leave that door open. But Jackie, one thing that you were saying, one of my friends, multiple friends told me this before your kids go off to college, they leave before they leave, like they start getting so busy with like, they can drive and they’re out of your house more than they’re in your house. And so by the time they get to college, you’re almost prepared.

Melissa Kruger

And I feel that with people who fall away, it’s like they have left before they left. They start withdrawing from certain things, and just slowly, and I think that’s what I want to do an SC it early on, not not to do it in an accusatory way. But to be in a ham issue is everything. Okay? I want to spot it early on, and try to reach out to the person and say, is everything okay? Are you going through anything? Do you do want to talk about anything? But it’s hard. It’s very hard. Yeah.

Jackie Hill Perry

It’s very hard.

Melissa Kruger

Because, you know?

Jackie Hill Perry

But I think to a certain degree, I’m great. Not grateful that it’s hard. But I appreciate that it’s hard, because it means I care. Because if it’s not hard, then it’s like man, maybe I haven’t really emotionally invested into this person and this relationship. And so there is an apathy towards them choosing the world over God. And so I think that the grief actually is a is a is a sign that there’s a level of love and care and compassion, that should then move me to continue to pursue them. Not like in the super aggressive way, but just say be available, but also, again, to keep praying and giving them over to the Lord.

Melissa Kruger

Yeah, I think that’s the hidden mark, too. I mean, again, this is that conviction that we’ve been having these conversations, because I’m like, Yeah, I might, I might talk about it with y’all and have a conversation. Yeah, I’m so concerned about this person, blah, blah, blah. But in my on my knees praying, and like, Emma doing the really hard work, which is being before the Lord and saying, will you please save this person, we please bring them to yourself. We please renew their desire for you and draw them back. And I think that’s what we can. It’s really the only that’s the only thing. It’s the only tool in our toolbox. Yeah, in some sense. I mean,

Jackie Hill Perry

is there a way to deconstruct your faith that is healthy?

Melissa Kruger

Yes. That’s a good question.

Jasmine Holmes

Okay. What does that look like? I’ve been through that. Totally. Re examining things that you once believed in once held, dear, that weren’t scriptural, but that you were either taught were scriptural, or had just kind of imbibed that were scriptural. It’s really scary. But there are people like me, who do that and still end up as believers.

Jackie Hill Perry

So what anchored you

Jasmine Holmes

the Word of God? Okay. Because for me, the things that I was deconstructing from, I couldn’t find in his word when I looked at it. So for me, it was lots of ideas about womanhood, right? Ideas about my ethnicity, ideas about how the home is supposed to run, you know, homeschooling, where you, you know, the concert, you know, the world. And when I actually looked at the Bible, I saw, you know, God didn’t God didn’t make this stuff that’s been hurting me. That’s been like tugging and pulling. And this is actually extra biblical. And it made me more committed to the truth of the gospel than I had been before. Because I was understanding that the things that I had associated with being Christian, some of them weren’t, yeah.

Jackie Hill Perry

No, sign of immaturity. Mm hmm.

Jasmine Holmes

I am pretty mature.

Jackie Hill Perry

You got your legs crossed. Sounds pretty adult.

Jasmine Holmes

Are you impressed with me? cross my legs right

Jackie Hill Perry

that surprised actually can’t believe I did their breathing. I know how long is it gonna last?

Jasmine Holmes

I don’t know. Cuz I’m feeling kind of tight. I’m gonna be honest with you. She might but when I when I deconstruct your knee when I crossed that Lego row, I was like, Okay.

Jackie Hill Perry

Would you say that? Have you ever been through a season like that?

Melissa Kruger

Yeah, I would. I would actually They say it’s in some of the same realms, you know of what does cultural Christianity say? manhood and womanhood should look like versus was the Bible say. So for me, it wasn’t going away from Christianity, I feel like it was going deeper into what the word actually says. So yeah, starting to look, I’m really thankful for what I used to think were the add ons of Scripture, like Romans 16, when Paul’s saying goodbye to everybody, and all the sudden you, Ross, half of them are women.

Melissa Kruger

Who are his fellow workers in the Lord. Yeah. And yes, as somebody who is starting to see scripture, all the parts matter, and how, you know, women have been a part of this grand redemptive story all along. And he’s using men and women, it’s not that men are bad. It’s not that you know, that both together, you know, are called and are part of the body. And the more I see that, I think it’s just, I would say, it’s refined my faith and refined, maybe wrong. views that heard from other people, and whether it was just somebody who was repeating somebody, and it wasn’t repeated very well, right. But just what’s cultural? And what I would also say is maybe 1950s, American culture, right? versus what is biblical,

Jasmine Holmes

and not to say that deconstruction always leads you to the Bible saying what you want us to say, either, because like, you know, yeah, June Cleaver is not the Proverbs 31. Woman. Good to me. That’s great. God still has laws about sexuality. Well,

Melissa Kruger

Well, and that Proverbs 31 woman is rising early. I mean, like, she’s not living an easy life. Yeah, in some ways, like, I look at her, and I’m like, Oh, this is how

Jackie Hill Perry

I don’t like the color purple.

Jasmine Holmes

She got them servants though.

Jackie Hill Perry

yeah, she does.

Melissa Kruger

That’s what my mentor used to always say. She was like, Well, when I get my server and girls, I’ll make sure they’re well fed.

Jasmine Holmes

I will. That’s the least I could do

Jackie Hill Perry

but I think we’re both of you just said, might actually leave some anxiety for people. Because I think what you highlighted is that like, even if someone uses the late the language of deconstruction, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re leaving the faith. Right? It might mean that they’re just thinking it over and going deeper, and to many of the things that they thought they believe didn’t really and No, no, no, you get them saying, yeah,

Melissa Kruger

yeah, I think there’s there’s very little about the gospel. I feel like I’m only gone deeper in Yeah, I only believe more and how my worst cannot save me and how much Jesus has rescued my soul. Like, it’s a deeper end. And it’s a more joyful in through the years. So I think the concern is, is the people who just yeah, we know what it looks like. I mean, they walk away, versus Oh, hey, what I think about God in this area has shifted, I think that’s very different, you know, from and here’s

Jasmine Holmes

the scripture that I have, yes. To back up the things that I think about God that is different from what I thought before. That’s right. He told me, or I felt like, and now I feel better.

Melissa Kruger

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like I grew up in this kind of church. And now I’m at a Baptist church, and I got baptized years, those type of changes, I think, are part of maturing into what, maybe leaving your parents faith and gaining your own faith. And I think most kids who grew up in a Christian home have to go through that at some level. And I hope as parents, we can actually encourage them in that rather than say, Hold on, you’re not gonna be my type of Christian. Like, I don’t think there’s any fear in that. I’m just glad. Yeah, I’m just glad. You know, my daughter, she got baptized as an adult last year at college. You know, she was baptized as an infant, because I was in the Presbyterian Church. I didn’t look at that and be like, Oh, dear. Yeah, I was like, Well, I mean, most college students are doing I think getting baptized is a pretty good option. So I was pretty happy. Yeah. I just want to support her and say, Hey, follow Jesus. These are your convictions. That’s great. You know, but I don’t know. I don’t think we have to be afraid of that. Yeah. That type of deconstruction, or changing of their of what they might believe. Yeah.

Jackie Hill Perry

Amen to that.

Melissa Kruger

Today, our question for favorite things, is what is your favorite format of a book? We all love to read.

Jackie Hill Perry

Jasmine is the audible queen.

Jasmine Holmes

Yeah. 2021 is the year of the audio book for me

Melissa Kruger

tonight. I’ve never listened to an audio book. Ever.

Jasmine Holmes

Say that it’s not reading so Okay, it’s good, feel good that you are not part of that.

Melissa Kruger

I’m definitely a book person. I’d rather have a paperback, paperback normally, but I need a physical book in front of me. I’m so old school. I’m terrible. I can do a Kindle. But I never like it. You know, I don’t. I really am a visual person. So I like remembering where the quote was on the page. Yeah, I like seeing it. I see it mentally.

Jackie Hill Perry

Yeah, I was a physical book person for a long time. But I’ve become an iBooks person, really only because it’s more convenient. Yeah, like I always always have access to it. And other books, because I’m always reading five or six. stuff, too.

Melissa Kruger

Two. Yeah, I love that with iBooks is that on your computer

Jackie Hill Perry

that’s on my phone, what it is on your computer, okay, I use it on my phone. So it’s like, I could just I could be at the airplane. I’m in the airport. And it’s like, I don’t have to say, Oh, I forgot the book is like is there but what I will do is if I’m finished with it, and I liked it, I’ll buy the physical to put it in my library.

Melissa Kruger

Okay. And then you can searches to like if I’m trying to find that, quote, you know, where so and so said something like the word deconstruct all I couldn’t find it. Yep. We’re really excited that this season crossway has sponsored, let’s talk. And it’s fun for us to get to share great resources that are out there. And I know one thing that women are always looking for are good Bible studies. And so we’re excited to share about these flourish Bible studies by Lydia brown back and she has one on Esther, one on Luke, one on First and Second Peter, and

Jasmine Holmes

we don’t have here but also judges and Philippians.

Melissa Kruger

Two more come in. Yep. So tell us a little more about them. Jasmine.

Jasmine Holmes

So they’re 10 weeks studies. And they are the kind where you can like write in the book, you know, read all this stuff in the book. There’s maps, there’s timelines. I got very excited about the timeline.

Melissa Kruger

I like the maps.

Jasmine Holmes

Yeah. Yeah. That’s really great.

Melissa Kruger

Jackie is very impressive.

Jasmine Holmes

It’s also like a pretty cool collection of books that she did like so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I’m into it. I’m into it. I packed the extra one. To look at on my way here, actually. Yeah. And it’s like just the right amount of hammer. Yeah, you can do it. I think I said it’s 10 weeks. Yeah, you can do it by yourself. Or you can do it with a group. Yeah. And it’s really manageable. Yeah. Sands. Jackie knows where you can get them.

Jackie Hill Perry

I do. So I’m not one to hustle off no Bible studies. Okay, that just seems a little bad. So just go ahead, go to crossway.org forward slash plus, and you might just find out how to get 30% off because you know, saints love a good deal. Okay, that’s all for this episode of Let’s Talk. We’ll be back next week.