The Church Needs Men and Women to Serve Together

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Megan Hill
I just want to open our conversation by reading a few verses to you, some of the more beautiful verses I would argue in all of Scripture. And they come to us at the very end of the book of Romans, Romans, chapter 16. And here, Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, writes this, I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at centrea, that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints, and help her in whatever she may need from you, for she has been a patron of many and of myself as well. Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ, Jesus, who risked their necks for my life, to whom not only I give thanks, but all the churches of the Gentiles give thanks as well. Greet also the church in their house. Greet my brother, greet my beloved, epanatus, who was the first convert to Christ in Asia. Greet Mary, who has worked hard for you. Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me. Greet amplatus, my beloved in the Lord. Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ, and my beloved stacus, greet apellus, who is approved in Christ. Greet those who belong to the family of Aristobulus. Greet my kinsman Herodian. Greet those in the Lord who belong to the family of Narcissus. Greet those workers in the Lord tryphenia and try fosa. Greet the beloved Persis who has worked hard in the Lord. Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord and also his mother, who has been a mother to me as well. Greet asyncretus, phlegon, Hermes, patrobas, Hermas and the brothers and sisters who are with them. Greet philogus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympus and all the saints who are with them greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you, sister. Did you hear what Paul was doing in that text? He was noting men and women together in the church. He was noting their value to the church, the labor that they had done for the sake of the kingdom. He was calling them out by name and commending them, and he was giving us this beautiful picture of what the church can and should look like when you have men and women who are laboring together for the sake of Christ. And so that’s the place that we want to go in this conversation. How can, how can we show that in our context, in our places, this beauty of men and women coming together for the cause of the gospel? So let’s start by talking about what complementarian ism even is. Because, of course, in any conversation, it’s important to define our terms to know what we’re talking about, especially sort of a hot to handle term like complementarianism. What are we even talking about? Wendy? Could you start us off sort of talking about the biblical foundation there?

Wendy Alsup
Sure you know this term, and the way that I value it really reflects on Genesis one and two in the creation narrative, where God says, Let us create man, humankind, mankind in our image, male and female. He created them. And so it’s this profound concept that there were two biological sexes, distinct but overlapping, overlapping in the sense that you know, I have more in common with a human male than I do with a female cat, right? So there’s much that overlapping in our biological sex, right? But there’s also distinction that there was more than one biological sex needed or used or planned by God to image him out as creator, out into the world, and then Genesis two zooms in on the creation of the woman and God uses this language. I will make a help, an azer. And of course, you know, if you’ve studied it at all, you know help is an excellent term, but it’s also a weak term. It doesn’t convey everything. And so when you look at help in the Old Testament and at azer, it’s actually used much more of God himself. 16 times it’s used of God as our help, God as our azer, God comes alongside of us in this very strong aid. And so that women were particularly given this beautiful language of how we get to reflect out the God of the scriptures in a distinct but overlapping way with the other biological sects. And then in first, Timothy five, one and two, which is a passage kind of dear to the topic at hand. Paul, as he did in Romans, 16, talks about us, not you know, we think of biological sex often as just husband and wife, but he talks about the family of God as fathers and daughters and mothers and sons and brothers and sisters. And there are many familial relationships that should be characterizing us in the body of Christ that have nothing to do around marriage. It’s it’s the two biological sexes in the family of God coming together to help one another in the in Kingdom work. Amen.

Blair Linne
Amen. I was just thinking to add to that just our spiritual adoption in God. You know that we have God as our Father, and now we have the church as our family. And so this beautiful picture that we have of men and women being made equally in the image of God, and yet having distinctions in how they live out the work and the responsibilities God has called them to.

Megan Hill
Now, of course, there’s a range of complementarianism, isn’t there? Sandy, maybe you can sort of speak to that. And you know, TGC in this room, I’m sure we have a variety of views.

Sandy Willson
Yes, there is a variety of views, and we welcome that, because we don’t know everything, and we learn from each other, men and women, I think the fundamental principles, however, have been stated, and I think we’re all agreed on what Wendy and Blair said, that we are made to be equal in value before the Lord. We are all made in His image, and yet we’re made differently. And I would only add that it’s important to learn to enjoy the difference. So often we know just enough about the other gender to make jokes about them, and there are some good ones, but we’re to enter into that world. I mean, it’s amazing that the Lord made us to genders. Why did he do that? There’s been theological speculation. You could hear Tim Keller doing this, you know, talking about the relationship between Father Son and Holy Spirit of one essence, equal in power and glory. And yet distinct persons and God made humankind to be complementary to one another in some ways to picture the Trinity. Then, of course, in marriage, of course, we know that the reason for that difference is to make, to give us an analogy that shows the love of Christ for His people and His people’s devotion to our Lord. So those are the fundamental boundaries. And you can imagine how many differences there are, and that each one of our churches probably practice this a little differently, but I think within those boundaries.

Megan Hill
So that’s our sort of big picture definition. But of course, this is not an abstract issue, is it? I mean, it really comes down to each person, sort of lived experience with it. And so I know each of you have been asked to be on this panel because you have you have experiences, and you have a heart around this issue. So I’d just love to hear just super personally from each of you. Why are you sitting here? Why do you care about complementarianism?

Blair Linne
Yeah, I’ll go. Well, I think when men and women are able to serve together in the church, the church, it benefits in unique ways. I think there’s a health to the church. So even, as Wendy laid out in Genesis one, you know, God makes Adam, and then shortly after, he says, it’s not good, the man should be alone, you know. So I’m going to make a woman. I’m going to make a helper for him. And, you know, a woman was the answer to that problem. And so I think that there’s such a benefit and a beauty to women and men serving together for the sake of God’s kingdom, for the sake of His church. And then two, as I shared a little bit, as you shared, I should say, a little bit in my bio. You know, having experienced, I think, some of the negative results of someone who didn’t really value women, having a pastor who really, I would say, engaged in spiritual abuse and misused a lot of the women in his life. You know, it’s really important for me to see, well, what does the Scripture say? I think at that moment, I was very young in my faith, and I viewed, I think even to some degree, men as greater they may be able to understand the word more clearly than I could. And so there were times where the Holy Spirit in me was causing, like, red flags are going off, like, hold up. But I think I was dismissing that, just assuming, well, he’s more spiritual than I am, and so it just taught me it’s so important for me to align myself with God’s word and to trust God’s Word, to stand firm on God’s word and what he says about men and women, that men are valuable, so even if. Have experienced spiritual abuse, right? Or we’ve had hardships as it relates to interactions with men in our lives. We eventually, we have to give that over to the Lord so that we can, we can bear with our brothers in Christ, right, so that we can hope the best and not be burdened down by that experience. And then also that we’re looking at women, right, and we’re hoping the best that we know that God values women as well, so that we can build relationships so with men and women to the glory of God.

Wendy Alsup
And I’ve been really burdened for it, because I’ve had two particular experiences personally, and one is the sexualization of women so that a man could not interpret a woman, particularly a peer in the church, as anything other than a sex object to be avoided, but also suspicion of women. And I’ve talked with several people about this before, and it was a little bit on the rise and fall of Moritz Hill podcast, but how I had a period of time where some of the language after the fall in Genesis three was used to project onto me, or at least convince me that my anytime I had a concern, that it was really coming from a sinful heart of nagging or manipulating. And so I was just constantly stomping down and stamping down concerns and became distrustful of really, what was the Holy Spirit working in my own heart? Because I I distrusted my own voice so much, even though I loved God and I loved his word, and so then in the aftermath, I looked back and realized, both in some personal situations, in my own home and in the church, that you know, the concerns I had were real, and I wonder, you know, God is sovereign over this, and I believe in Providence, but I would, I would hope for the future, that I would have the confidence to approach a loved one of my my pastor or husband, in a way that would be respectful but also honest, you know, and that I don’t have to always think that I’m going to nagging or manipulation. But I’ve also had hard circumstances in good churches. And I had a situation after my divorce where I went to a new church. It was a beautiful church, lovely pastor. And I had like, two Sundays back to back where I had like, three different men in the church who, like, Wouldn’t make eye contact, move their chair away from me, and I’m like, Well, do I need to write a sign, like, I’m not interested in you. Actually, I’m not looking for a spouse. You know, you’re safe. But, you know, I talked to the pastor afterwards, and he explained to me that there had actually been a very serious situation a few years before I got there of two male leaders having an affair with a female leader in the church, and it had hurt the men as much as hurt the women. And so a lot of times, men are coming to this conversation burnt as we are coming burnt. And so it’s just really important for us to offer grace to one another and be ever ready to believe the best of one another. And that is not always the tone we take, either men with women or women with men.

Sandy Willson
I really appreciate what both of you have said. Both of you are coming from experiences which have been really troubling. I mean, it saddens me to hear both of you talk, but it also encourages me because both of you are saying, I’m not going to be defined by that. You know, the Lord Jesus is going to define me, and the Bible is going to be a lamp to my feet, light to my path. So I just come in both of you and I know this room is filled with people who probably have some similar experiences, and so it’s not always easy to get recalibrated when you’ve been disoriented like that. Those are very disorienting experiences. The reason I think Megan that a complementarity is so important, is a couple. Let me say a couple things. One is to be in Christ is to flourish. It’s to be fully human. Is to be your best self, if you will, not immediately and not fully in this lifetime, but you’re on that path. And God made us male and female, and he made us to relate in distinct ways, so that we’re equal in our essence. But we do have different assignments in the church and in marriage, and by receiving those and learning to receive it without reluctance or bitterness in any way, but joyfully becoming what he defined us to be. You find that you are your best self. So I would just say, in terms of Christian discipleship, this issue is really important. Look at all the gender confusion that we have. I mean, just to say they’re too gender. Genders is controversial now, but then to define them like like we do biblically, is also very important. And I do think more and more people are turning to complementarians to get us out of this mess, because we know they’re too genders, and we know why they were created. So I’m feeling a little bit triumphant about about our view, because it contributes so much to human flourishing. Second thing I would say, as a pastor, most churches that I know that have women elders do so because they think of their elder board as a board of directors. And if I were to have a board of directors for the church, believe me, I would have women on it. So if indeed a board of elders is a board of directors, I believe you should have women on it. I mean, for obvious reasons. But the fact that matter is, I think biblically, that you’re gathering of elders. Those are your pastors. Those are your shepherds. And if the home is run properly, where you have two people working together, and the man is taking the burden to be the man, to lay down his life for his family and to be courteous and kind to his wife and to nurture his children and to be the one who protects them above everybody else, then those are the people that these male elders need to be pastoring above all there does need to be obviously female pastoring that’s going on in the church that’s not ordained. But I just find in terms of Church Health, I want to hold these men responsible. You know, my experience in marriage counseling has been really about 85% of the time. If I could get the man’s head straight, I believe we’re going to be fine. And I know I’m biased, because I am a man, but I do normally see more fault on the male side? Well, I want male elders who are interacting with these men. So the churches that I find that do think that women should be elders normally are not functioning in the role I’m describing for a shepherd. And if they do, I think they get the logic that you need men holding men accountable in the homes. Now that that’s, of course, for married people, but true for single people too, and need men to lead. So I’m convinced, theologically and biblically, first of all, I mean, if God said it, that settles it, but I do see the practical outworkings of it Megan, and that’s the reason that you know, the issue has some passion for me.

Megan Hill
Yeah, that’s great. So let’s talk now a little bit about how complementarity can go wrong. And then really we want to focus on how, how it can go right and having a positive vision. But I think there is this sort of elephant in the room, of it goes wrong sometimes, and so what are some ways in which you guys have experienced it going wrong? Wendy, maybe you could start us off

Wendy Alsup
well, going back to that idea of the suspicion of women and the sexualization of women, so that if we we need, maybe even speaking to what what we could do to counteract it. But are we discipling male and female like you know, we in complementarian circles. We spend a boatload of time on husband wife relationships, right? And so now I’m divorced, so I don’t have a husband at my home, but I have relationships with my two teenage sons and my male pastors, you know. And so I am having to this, you know, focus on what does being a helper in in these contexts with between the biological sexes, and how do I come alongside and help in ways that they truly find helpful in my church, and it’s, it’s been important for me to discipline my own mind, you know, I’ve had handsome pastors, but I’d say, well, that’s creepy, because he’s my brother, you know. So we’re not even going there, because this is I, you know, discipline myself, and we’re just should be discipling in the church that these are our brothers, these are our fathers, these are our sons, and you’re only going to have one spouse, right? And it’s creepy to think of anybody else in terms of that in the in the body of Christ. And so I think that’s a discipleship norm that we need to be stressing in the church. Yeah.

Blair Linne
I mean, we talk about even just the range of beliefs when it comes to complementarianism. Maybe you’ve heard terms like complementarianism light, or complementarianism heavy, or narrow versus broad. You know, just to be transparent, I think, I guess I’m in the narrow view, or I see it as specifically related to the church. Church and the home. I don’t believe that women should be pastors or elders. I believe that that is ordained for men, that authoritative teaching that spoken of in First Timothy two, I believe is reserved for men. But I know that there are others who may have a difference of opinion, but I think it’s important for us to even I think more so than upholding or trying to defend the term, is to defend the theology behind the term, right? We’re trying to line up with the Scripture. Right? We want the scripture to be our guide, and we want to conform complementarianism to the text versus the other way around. And I do think there are a lot of misconceptions. So even as you mentioned, you know it’s like, what do you do with single people? So even as we talk about complementarianism in the church and complementarianism in the home, what does it look like in the marketplace? I think for single people, and I know different people have different views. So for example, if you are a woman and you are a CEO, you are running your company, and you’re doing a great job at it, I think sometimes it’s like, Well, wait, but I’m a helper, right? So how do I reconcile this role that I have, this responsibility I have, to this function that I’ve been given by God. Should I be looking for my employees, who are men, you know, to somehow, I don’t know, like not submit to them, but just like to place myself under their leadership. To some degree, I don’t think so. I know there’s some who might say so, but I look to Proverbs 31 where we see the woman who worked in the marketplace, right? She was buying land and making exchanges. I look at Lydia, you know, in Acts, who was also doing that work. So, but I do think there’s a lot of confusion about single people and how this practically works itself out. Yeah, and then also, I think even the day to day. So when it comes to single people, male and female in their day to day interactions together, you know? So it might not be that you’re looking at that man in a sexual way, but functionally, like, how are we to relate? So if I’m hanging, if I’m I’m in my 20s, my 30s, my 40s, my 50s, 60s, you know, I’m single, I’m hanging with other peers who are of the opposite sex, and we’re hanging out. Should I be washing their dishes? Should Do you don’t mean like, are there? Hey, you know, should I be serving? But I think the Sometimes, the problem with that, yes, serve. Serve your brothers, right? Freely, voluntarily. But I think the challenge it gets sticky when there’s interest, and it gets sticky when it’s like, Are you testing me? You know, do you like me? And then it gets really weird. And so that’s why I think sometimes we wrestle with, like, Can men and women be friends? You know? Because it’s like, it gets, I think it gets very sticky, and you don’t want to do things motivated out of any romance. You don’t want to do it motivated out of could this person potentially be interested in me, right? You want to say this is my brother, but there has to be some level of boundary to say I can’t functionally be married to you. Do you know what I mean? Does that make sense? Yeah.

Wendy Alsup
And one of the things that I work on practicing, because I have really great brothers in Christ in my church, but I work on practicing, it’s, it’s the couple, you know, I’m, I love their sisters, and I discipline myself, you know. And sometimes it’ll be appropriate to have an individual conversation, but I make sure I don’t have a long individual conversation that I’m this is these are my friends, not just my one friend, but this couple speaks into my life. And I really I’ve needed I’ve needed men in my church speaking to my life. I’ve needed men in my church speaking into my children’s life and and so I value them as my brothers. But then I also discipline my brother’s married to this woman. So how am I going to think about this and and make sure I honor that in a way that doesn’t cause them a stumbling block? Does it cause her? I mean, there may be nothing in between the husband and myself in any way, shape or form. But Have I done something to make her think or her to be concerned and love for Christ? Says, No, sister, I am not going to do that to you. I am not going to put you in that situation.

Sandy Willson
Yeah, I would agree with what’s been said.

Unknown Speaker
Blair, wash the dishes.

Sandy Willson
No, that was, that was a joke. But when Blair was talking about female CEOs, absolutely and right now, I think in our political situation, I wish we had a female president. It would be a kinder, sweeter place than what we’re dealing with now. All. Craziness. So yes, in the workplace and other realms outside of church and marriage, which are the two that the apostles speak to, you know, we should be promoting the leadership and the usefulness of human beings, regardless of their gender, in every realm, in terms of abuses, Megan, I just see a lot of it, it’s and some of it is subliminal, subconscious, but men will, and I know you, you know the women here will have multiple stories, but you can see men just dismissing women’s opinions. I mean, I’m sorry, but it’s sort of gender supremacy. So especially in a complementarian environment where they have the official roles, somehow elders feel like they don’t need to listen. And then elders will get in a room that’s all men, and they’ll make some decision that affects the whole church, and nobody’s talked to the women in the church. It’s stunning how not only are you dismissed in conversation, but sometimes you’re dismissed in decision making. And the church really hurts over this. And I think then that’s that’s kind of the primary sin. Then you get secondary sins. And the secondary sin is, what are you going to do better as a woman? I’m going to talk to my sisters about this. We’re going to talk about them, and we’re, you know, and so you start gossiping, or you create a female authoritative structure so that everybody can have a position. And you’re, you’re siloed from the rest of the church. I see that happening often, especially in southern churches, where you have more traditionalism, perhaps, than in other places. So I think as a woman, it takes a lot of grace, oftentimes to confront these abuses that are not violent abuses, but they feel that way psychologically. It takes grace, and then it also takes courage, because you have to sit down with your brother and say, hey, could I rehearse with you what just happened in that meeting three days ago? And you know, I haven’t talked to anybody else, but I’m just going to give you my opinion on this, and I’d really like to see you make a turn the road. And our women have to do this. I’ll give you one example, and this leads toward what we can do to fix it. Susan Nash is a good friend of mine. We were executives on the same executive team in the church I pastored in Memphis, and you know, Susan. So one day, Susan came into my office and she handed me a little letter to the editor in the Commercial Appeal the Memphis paper. And she said, Did you see this? And I said, let me look. And I read it, and it was a guy who was complaining about all the off street parking on Poplar Avenue, which is a main trunk in Memphis, and who are these Presbyterians who think they can just take their cars and park them out there on Sunday and clog up all the traffic? And I said, Well, you know those things happened. And I pushed it back. She said, No, did you read who wrote the letter? I looked at it and I said, that name looks familiar. She said he was our second violinist in the last orchestra you had in the sanctuary. And I passed it back and I said, well, the operative word that you just said was, was she pushed it back gently, and she said, Pastor, you might reconsider that answer. Wow. I mean, obviously, you know, 15 years later, I remember this just gently, respectfully being helped by someone who is more gracious than I am, and I think women often bring that, but it’s a challenge, because you do get dismissed and overpowered at times through complementarian structures that are not operating correctly, and so I think it requires a lot of grace to do this, Right.

Megan Hill
Yeah, no, that’s a great segue into kind of the a positive vision forward. Then you know how, okay, we have these challenges that we’re dealing with, but how do we move toward a healthy practice complementarianism, particularly in the church? And you know, Wendy, I know you and your work. You really believe it starts with discipleship, I think. And so can you talk to us a little bit about discipling? People into this view?

Wendy Alsup
And it also is discipling, not It didn’t have to be the formal discipleship too, right? So it can be this one on one conversation, and, you know, and when I’m talking with a woman, I think a lot about just asking that question, you know, you’re struggling here, and but God created you to be a strong helper. And who are, who are you struggling with? And you know, can you go to that person? Is it your husband, your pastor, and say, Well, what? I feel like God created me not to be just, you know, I’m not just folding socks and putting weight in. Napkins are washing dishes, whether, but not to say, not do that, but also like, what and what would be strongly helpful to you, like, what is the lack in the church right now that I can step into in a way that would help you as pastor? What can I do in my home that would help you as husband? And sometimes the you might think the answer would be one thing, it might be a very, very different thing. And I found that my pastor is not suspicious of me. My current pastor, we’re in a church plant, and there is a lot of need. And so it’s been really beautiful to have someone you know that just like to give a vision like this, is really possible to have these brothers who are not suspicious of you, who value what you can bring, a pastor who values what I can bring. And so it never even, it never even occurs to me that I’m not in a technical, paid leadership position, because I feel like my gifts are well used, like, almost to where I have to say, I’m sorry I don’t have time for that, you know. And so it can really happen in a really beautiful way, and, and, and being willing to submit to God’s long game, like we often want the short game. We want the to say it quickly and have a quick response. But sometimes you’re going to have to sow a seed and wait and wait for someone else to water it, and wait for the sun to come out later and and wait for fruit. But God has a long game, and that’s definitely been true in my life.

Blair Linne
That’s good. I’m like, if we had this all figured out, we wouldn’t need the Lord, the Spirit of God, right? One of the other things that I was thinking about is just the importance of accountability. I think it’s about it is vital that your pastors have accountability. You know? I know there are many different models when it comes to the church, I know me personally, I don’t lean anymore towards the Moses model, where there’s one man you know who is kind of the one that everything is centered around. I find much comfort. I find much security, and a plurality of elders I see I think it’s biblical. I think it’s biblical. So not only just because of my experience, I think it’s in the Bible, and I think it’s important, because the elders, they need out right. They need accountability. They don’t have it all figured out. And then also it’s important, even as you mentioned, Pastor Sandy, like the importance of having pastors that listen to women. So one of the things that my current pastor pastors, they do is often they’ll have sermon review, so after they preach a sermon that night, they’ll meet with all the other pastors that’s on staff, including some women, women, even who are not on staff, but just godly women in the congregation, and they’ll say, What did you think? You know, and that just helps to think through application, you know. How does this apply to me as a single mom? How does this apply to me as a homeschooling mom, you know? Or, how does this apply to me as a businesswoman? How does this apply to me as a widow, you know, that they are hearing from women. I think that’s really important. And then, and then, one of the things I was thinking about is the importance of using your gifts in the church as a woman. I think sometimes we emphasize certain text that are gendered specific, and then we de emphasize other texts, or we don’t really pay attention to others. So an example I thought about was like First Corinthians 14, right, which would say a woman should be silent, right? And it speaks of other people being silent too. We don’t really talk about that, but, you know, we just kind of focus in on that, but then we miss like First Corinthians 11, which came before, and you have women who are praying and prophesying in the church. So what do we do with that? We need to wrestle through this, right? I think, with our pastors, so that we can have a healthy view of men and women using their gifts, because when the body of Christ, I believe, when women are not using their gifts in the church, the body suffers. There’s a passage Ephesians four, verse seven. It says, Now grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. For It says, When He ascended on high, he took the captives captive, and He gave gifts to people, and then it goes on. He gave some to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son, growing into maturity with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness, that’s men and women together. Now I don’t believe that, you know, women should be apostles, or, you know what I mean, like, I don’t believe they should be elders, but there are other gifts that are listed there that I believe include us. So what does that look like in the context of your church?

Megan Hill
So time is getting on from us, which is this is so fun, but I want to sort of bring us down to the super practical level here, so we have a room full of women here. So what is one thing maybe that a woman in this room could do this Sunday, to just improve the working relationship of brothers and sisters in her church. Like, what? What kind of woman sitting out here do just just to make things a little bit better?

Wendy Alsup
I really do like that question of just asking, well, what would you find helpful pastor? What would be an asset to you right now in the ministry. Where are you burdened? You know? How can I come alongside and aid and then also in in communication, practicing, giving the benefit of the doubt that a lot of times, our brothers in Christ, you know? And I gave that example in my own history, our brothers in Christ are wrestling with more than what meets the eye, just like we are. And so a lot of times the initial assumption is not correct about their heart. And so given the benefit of the doubt and asking how to be a help,

Blair Linne
I was just thinking the importance of thanksgiving. Are there ways that you can express gratitude for the things that your pastors are doing already? When you hear encouraging things in the sermons, do you mention that to your pastor? Thank you so much, or you share this particular application that really helped me or blessed me, or maybe an illustration you use in the church about how sister so and so is doing such and such in the church and that. You know, I think just encouraging what you what you already see in place.

Sandy Willson
I do think it’s important for women and men to have venues like this one where, dominantly, one gender gets together and talks about things that are peculiar to your gender. I led a men’s Bible study for 20 years, 22 years, and it was wonderful to get these guys sort of in a mail hot box and talk directly about being a dad, being a husband, all kinds of things that are peculiar to them and I, and this is so sweet. I mean, I feel almost embarrassed to be out there to be able to listen to this beautiful singing with 9200 women singing. But I’m so grateful that my little granddaughter Claire and my granddaughter Maggie, and my daughter Mary and my wife, Allison and I are all sitting there together and tears streaming down our faces just worshiping together with with you, and women’s events and men’s events, and fellowship is very important, and I would say, especially when it comes to discipleship and shepherding. I just don’t believe that a male pastor can really Shepherd a woman’s heart intimately. It’s way too close. So to me, I need to be shepherding a group of women, which I do, and train them in shepherding just like I train the elders. So it’s the same training and begging them, please let us know how we need to help you in shepherding the women of the church. So I guess my answer is, if there’s some way. What about the single woman who may be feeling left out, you can reach her a lot better than I can. And so one thing to do is look out for those that you know you can reach, that the elders are not going to be able to reach in the same way. We’re all under their leadership. I’m under their leadership, but we all have peculiar advantages in dealing with certain people. So I just really value the women shepherds. If I can put it that way, the shepherdesses, they have the same instincts as the elders. If I have a good elder, I have just as many women who are thinking exactly the same way, and they disciple and shepherd in the same way. One has authority to rule and govern. Those are the elders, and the others. Don’t have the authority rule and govern the the church as an institution, but they’re doing the same work. So I think aspiring to do just what you’re talking about, Wendy, if we can all just disciple and shepherd and care for people. And if you’re a woman, you’ve got access to the heart that outside of my wife and my daughters and my granddaughters, I’m just never going to be as close as you’re going to be.

Megan Hill
Wendy, can you tell us a quick story of one time that you were really grateful for complementarianism?

Wendy Alsup
Well, I’ve really been grateful for how it’s discipled me to value the gifts that my brothers bring that I don’t have, so valuing their distinctions as well, and for me in my church, because I had male pastors at the. Loss of my divorce, we lost a male input into our family, and so it has blessed me to have the male leadership speaking into our family in a way that I really felt lost without it. And so I’ve really my father, my my pastors, they’ve they’ve spoken into my life in a really meaningful way that it wouldn’t have happened without this understanding of Scripture.

Megan Hill
We are so glad that you are here and had this conversation, which we pray that you will continue to have the conversations as you go out from here. And let me just close us all in prayer, Father in heaven, we thank you so much for the goodness of this world that you have created, and that you did create, man, male and female, and set them in your world, and you brought them into your kingdom. And Lord, these are difficult things, and they’re challenging, sort of both on a big picture level and also on a what do I do this week kind of level, and we pray that You would help us to navigate these things well, that we would be the best sisters that we can be to our brothers, and that you would help them to be good brothers to us, and that your church might be a beautiful picture of your intent for her of men and women working together for the kingdom in compliment, complimentary ways, Lord we thank you So much for the Lord Jesus Christ, and we pray that she would be glorified in all things. And it is in his name that we pray amen.