Friendship and Gospel Culture

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T. J. Tims
I would much rather see someone find find their way into, you know, one deep and meaningful and honest friendship, then, you know, then join every small group program or discipleship group.

Sam Allberry
And one of the dangers and I’ve seen this in myself is thinking that unless something is happening as part of a program, it’s not happening. Yeah. And so much is happening outside of the programs, and even within the programs themselves, not to make them merely matters of utility. Yes. But actually, that the programs themselves become vehicles for for those kinds of relationships. Yeah, exactly. We’re often quite task oriented aren’t may say that the the aim of the men’s group is to, you know, grow in understanding of X or Y, or whatever it might be. And, as you know, part of the aim of that ministry has got to be building brotherhood. Yeah. And letting the gospel do that for us, but not merely just shutting theology into some brains, but actually helping some hearts down together in friendship.

Sam Allberry
Welcome back to your crazy gospel sanity for young pastors, we’re so glad to have you with us. And we’re grateful to TGC for hosting this podcast and we love our partnership with him. We’ve met our guests today before, but we did scour the land to look for a young pastor and have found again, Pastor TJ, Teddy’s doctor, Pastor, Pastor, Dr. Order those go in just TJ is fine. Okay. TJ, thanks for coming back. And joining us again, that brother TJ is is my friend and brother, he’s also my pastor. I’m so thankful to be under his ministry and leadership, and Emanuel. So it’s great to have you joining us again, for the podcast. Thanks for being here.

T. J. Tims
Oh, man, you can mean this is so great. Thanks for taking the chance on me, man.

Sam Allberry
It’s a it’s a joy. So the topic for our conversation today, which is wealth, it’d be great to pull you in for this friendship, and particularly friendship, for pastors friendship and gospel culture. And when we’re thinking about friendship, we’re not thinking about something that is that is sort of theologically incidental, that this is this is something that actually is not unrelated to the message of the Gospel itself. Yes.

T. J. Tims
Yeah. I mean, we get this we could go so many different directions with this. But the certainly the clearest indicator of what you just said, theologically, is John 1515. No longer do I call you servants, but I’ve called you friends. And the reason behind that Jesus says is for the servant does not know what his master is doing. So the disclosure of this is who I am, this is why I’m here. The why of my existence, Jesus is saying is the basis of friendship. Yeah. Which I think I’m safe, it’s safe to say puts friendship at the deep end of the relational pool. Yeah. So we’re not talking about, you know, like, when you have friends on Facebook, yeah. May or may not be friends. But we’re not talking about that. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And so it is actually a gospel issue.

Sam Allberry
It really is. And, you know, friendship of, of the Lord is is a key theme in the Bible and for, for God incarnate to call us friends. Amazing is astonishing. It’s one of those verses that if it wasn’t there in black and white in the Bible, I would never believe it. Yes. It took me a lot. It took me years and years to recognize what Jesus was saying here, which is that for him, what makes a relationship into friendship is that disclosure piece. I think I spent so many years of my life having friends that I enjoyed being around, but it was sort of a friendship based on we had the same hobby, or we laughed at the same jokes, or we watched the same dumb YouTube videos. I hadn’t realized that those those are good gifts of God that let’s not sort of write those things off. But actually, the mutual disclosure is what really makes a friendship such a deep kind of rich relationship is yes, yes. And I think that’s why a gospel culture is a friendship rich environment.

T. J. Tims
Because what else in this world can actually free us to say this is who we really I mean, the the disclosures risky. And you know, who, who else other than Jesus can free us to really disclose the true state of our hearts? Yeah. As I think about, you know, the gains that we’ve experienced by the grace of God in the area of friendship, they’re almost directly tied to First John one, seven and honesty and walking in the light. And I think I’ve talked about honesty here already. So I won’t rehash that but what flows naturally out of honest relations. ships with one another with one another in the presence of God. And the cleansing blood of Jesus, you know, cleansing us from all sense is friendship. Because now I know you. Yeah. Now we can really have fellowship and even go even deeper into the depths of friendship.

Sam Allberry
Absolutely. I don’t have to. I don’t have to worry about you finding me out. Yeah. Because you already you already know the worst things about me, TJ Yeah. Yeah. And you about me? Yeah. We still stick around.

T. J. Tims
You know, maybe that’s one way of kind of differentiating between a like it a real fellowship relationship and a friendship. Yeah. There are. There are things in my past that haunt me. I wish I had never done them, or never been a part of them. And they’re like Tinder areas. And I remember some years ago, I was I don’t know what was happening. But I was deeply distraught about those things. And it had been years since they occurred, and I knew I was forgiven. And that was what was so dissonant, you know, bewildering about it, I knew I was forgiven of them, and yet I’m haunted by them. And here’s how God set me free. I went to, I’m blessed to have at least four friends, I mean, deep friends. I went to one of my closest friends, which is my wife. And I said to her, here’s where I was so embarrassing. I said, I don’t even want to bring these things up from the past, you know about them. But here’s, here’s, here’s what I’m going through. And this is what I’m most afraid is going to happen. And she said to me, Well, if it does happen, I’ll be there with you. Wow. And it just deflated that fear. Because I think what I most deeply needed to know was not just that I was forgiven, but that if it came to the worst, I wouldn’t be alone. And that’s, she was a means of grace to me, because that’s who Jesus is. Right? I was thinking about Second Timothy four, I think it’s verse 17. Or Paul’s describing, having to basically stand alone, in the face of his enemies. And he says, But the Lord stood by me and strengthened me. Yeah, that’s who Jesus is for us. Yeah.

Sam Allberry
And receiving that friendship from Christ actually enables us to then express that kind of friendship to others isn’t actually Yes. To be the kind of friend to others, by God’s grace that Jesus says to us, yes.

T. J. Tims
Yeah, man. You know, it’s funny, like, it’s so easy to take friendship for granted. Yeah. And yeah, I think what I’m discovering right here, on the spot is I wouldn’t be here today. If it wasn’t for friendship.

Sam Allberry
I know I wouldn’t be, man.

T. J. Tims
I want to be a good friend. TJ, you are a good friend. Oh, thanks, brother. So

Sam Allberry
I remember the first time we certainly the first time we properly met, and if it’s the first time we ever sort of said hello to each other, but we grabbed witnesses would have been about three years ago, I guess when I was first starting to spend time in Nashville. We went out for lunch here in West Haven somewhere. Yes, yeah. And I just remember feeling as though a this is someone I really want to get to know better be this is someone I feel like I was going through a rough time at that at that stage and just sensed it was okay to say that. And the moment I did, I can still remember what you said you were just so full of grace and understanding. I kind of feel like we became pretty deep friends very quickly. Yeah. And a lot of it was to do with that, that honesty and disclosure and, yeah. Wonderfully, that hasn’t hasn’t changed. And the time since then.

T. J. Tims
That’s a great point. It’s not like it doesn’t have to take 20 years. No, in fact, I’ve many 20 year relationships that haven’t gone into a friendship. Yeah. So yeah, that’s really great news because it you know, it can feel daunting. If I you know, I really like everybody, I think who has done some exploration on the subject of friendship eventually happens upon CS Lewis. One friend, friendship happens when one person says to another what you two I thought it was the only one and there that is I’m not disagreeing with Lewis about that being the case of mutual shared interest is a great basis for a friendship and a friendship based on the friendship can’t really be a friendship as to be about something else. So I see Lewis’s point, but I think that’s why we as Christians are just in such a great position for friendship. Yeah, because what’s deepest in my heart, Christ Himself, my best friend. Is is also your Best Friend. Yeah. And when you and I get together and go deep in that way, actually, me it’s possible to create deep friendships very quickly. Yeah, I, yeah, I should have more friends.

Sam Allberry
It can actually be remarkable. And I’ve had this even when I’ve been visiting other places to speak for a few days is just already feeling a deep kinship with a believer in a very different cultural context you’ve never met before, but you will really sensing something of the shared family status in Christ. Yes. And that this is, this is not just a nice person. I’ve met him he, we happen to kind of get on but actually, now you can feel something of our shared union with Christ. Yes. It’s a glorious thing. Yes, it is. Because you, you know someone who in every other kind of metric, you should have nothing to do with. Yeah, you’ve got so little in common outside of Christ. And yet, when you have Christ in common that that is the deepest thing. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So when we’re talking about friendship, we’re not we’re not dragging into the gospel into an area, it doesn’t really belong. This is what the gospel builds and creates exactly. You and Ray have a while back, we’re talking about our sort of flagship verse in Romans 15, about welcoming one another’s Christ as welcomed us and friendship is another way of categorizing the welcome Jesus has given us. That’s exactly right. Because it’s the it’s the ongoing welcome of Jesus is his friendship. Yes. That’s the sort of condition we have before him now.

T. J. Tims
Yeah. And the friendship is on terms of grace. Yeah, I didn’t. It’s, it’s not like I, I earned a Jesus trust. He took a risk on me. And I think we’re talking about the maintenance of friendship, then we have the best resources for deep friendships. Because I mean, there’s a reason for instance, at the Apostle Paul says, bear with one another. Yeah, I mean, we’re sinners, we step on each other’s toes, I’m going to offend Sam and Sam, maybe will offend me. But I actually, I can just forgive, I can just extend grace, and we can just keep going. Yeah. And so I feel like we’re in a wonderful position in our churches to have lots of deep friendships, you know, and I don’t know if you’ve noticed this, you’re, you’re further down the road than I am in pastoral ministry. But it seems to me my limited experience, that oftentimes the difference between someone feet with between church feeling like home, and someone really sticking around, and making it their home, is not at the level of theology, or even at the level of like, church, you know, programs and ministries, but just one friend, ya know, they’re gonna have lots of relationships. But that is not actually a substitution for just one good friend.

Sam Allberry
I think that’s really profound. I can certainly think of experiences where I’ve theologically felt that home somewhere but not relationally felt at home. But it’s it’s the relationship that theology is meant to cultivate and produce, isn’t it? Yes. So a church where there isn’t a rich culture of friendship is a church that hasn’t received the gospel in its entirety? Yeah, maybe you’ve accepted it proposition only. But part of the work of the gospel is to make our hearts like the hearts, the heart of Jesus towards one another and to a wider world. So the presence and absence of friendship within a church is not a bad metric. It’s not the only one for for whether the church really does at a heart level. receive the gospel.

T. J. Tims
Yeah, yeah, that’s right. I really believe in, you know, plans and programs and systems, organizations, I believe in institutions. And I want to build as strong an institution as I can that Emanuel Nashville. But also, in addition to that, I would much rather see someone find find their way into, you know, one deep and meaningful and honest friendship, then, you know, then join every small group program or discipleship group. And so I think part of what we do as pastors is we, we have good systems, we need them. But we also notice and make allowances and encourage those things that happen between the systems, that that’s what we’re really after.

Sam Allberry
I think one of the dangers and I’ve seen this in myself is thinking that unless something is happening as part of a program, it’s not happening. Yeah. And so much is happening outside of the programs, and even within the programs themselves, not to make them merely matters of utility. Yes. But actually that the programs themselves become vehicles for, for those kinds of relationships. Yeah, exactly. We’re often quite task oriented, aren’t me so that the the aim of the men’s group is to, you know, grow in understanding of X or Y, or whatever it might be. And, as you know, part of the aim of that ministry has got to be building brotherhood. Yeah. And letting the gospel do that for us. But not merely just shoving theology into some brains, but actually helping some hearts be bound together in friendship.

T. J. Tims
That’s right. And it’s actually a completion of the theology. I remember recently, my wife and I were walking, I won’t name the church. But we were walking through downtown Franklin, where we live here outside of Nashville. And we walked past a place that does not preach gospel doctrine. And I didn’t even notice, I actually grew up in this tradition. So I didn’t even notice what was happening. But people were filing out of the church. And not a single person was speaking to one another. And my wife actually pointed out to me, she said, Does that seem strange to you, everybody finally on a church and no one talking to one another. Actually, that is a reflection or completion of the theology that was being preached that day. Wow. And in just the same way, it is a man, it’s a wonderful sound of my ears on Sunday morning, the low rumble of conversations and laughter, and kids running around have people 20 minutes after the service, who you know, in about 15 minutes, we’re gonna have to ask them to leave the room because we have another service going on, you know, it’s just, that is, oh, that’s so great. And you can’t plan that night.

Sam Allberry
But it’s a lovely thing to behold. There’s a danger for any of us in church work. When there isn’t another service coming in after the one we’ve, we’ve just finished. And I’ve seen this a few times in different churches where I’ve been involved where you try and give people a hint, it’s time to move on now. And I remember, one of the churches I worked at, one of the people who sort of was on lockup duty would just start to dim the lights a bit and kind of come on guys, some of us have got to get home. And I remember thinking, No, we actually we want people to be sticking around and talking this this is really, this is a significant part of church. Yes. This is where a lot of that one another ministry in the New Testament happens is happening right now. Exactly. So let’s never have you know, if you’ve got a service, the next service starting in two minutes, that’s different. But if if you don’t let’s not hurry that? Yes. And even in the United What about this before, even in our architecture of church buildings, as far as we can control that many of us can’t, but to try to have the space where people can get stuck on their way out of church, absolutely. Little areas where it’s easy just to step aside and have a conversation with someone. That kind of thing. Let’s make it in a really positive way. How to leave the building?

T. J. Tims
Yes, I totally believe in that. I mean, I believe in the ministry of lingering, yeah. And we used to have a men’s community at a manual ran, whenever I became, whenever I first started attending a manual Ray would teach 50 or 60. Guys kind of get into a circle and do theology for an hour. And it was great. I mean, it was where we stumbled into a lot of the discoveries of gospel culture by just, you know, for instance, happening on First John one, seven, and then saying, well, let’s just do this, let’s walk in the light. So, so many good things in my life flowed out of that one hour time. But it least as many good things flowed out of the two hour time of us afterwards. I was a young guy, I didn’t have kids. And you know, it was easier to linger. But we would, we would gather in the parking lot or wherever, and we would just digest things, talk about things and pray for one another. And deep friendships formed. But even more than that was spiritual formation was happening. Yeah. And you never could have put it in a program. It hadn’t a flow out of the program to ministry. Yeah. But man, that was. It’s hard to overstate how much that shaped me.

Sam Allberry
Yeah, I wish I’d been around then. That sounds an amazing time. It was great. Yeah. TJ, I know that for some pastors, just the very fact of being a pastor can be isolating. Yes, sometimes you don’t quite know how much you can really be fully open with people in your church. There’s always that sort of slight. Can I you know, as as a pastor, do I need to keep it a different distance. It can feel quite isolating. Any thoughts on that?

T. J. Tims
Well, it’s a comfort to me that there’s not a verse in the Bible that says that your friend has To be someone at your church, and maybe it’s better if they’re not, and depending on your church context. Another comfort is that you don’t actually need a lot of friends. Yeah, you need a close friend. Yeah. So I would just say, you know, pray, ask God to send you that person. And when it becomes clear, okay, here’s someone that I can go deep with. And they, you know, they want to do the same thing. I think it was Shakespeare said something like, you know, bind them to your soul with heaps of steel. Oh, yeah. Do whatever it takes. I actually drew Hunter’s book on friendship. I’ve heard I haven’t read it is wonderful. But I did hear drew give a talk about friendship. He gave it to the manual men. And he talked about the commitment that he was making, he was driving some hours, I don’t know how many, but some hours each month, to nurture friendships. And he recognized that it is worth it, and it takes that. So I would, I would just encourage the pastor that you know, you need it, you know, you’re not going to make it without it. And it’s going to be costly. And it’s totally worth it.

Sam Allberry
I know to two pastors back in England, who have been good friends for a number of years. And they’ve, they’ve sort of made a an informal agreement between them in as much as they can control these things. And we can’t always but they’ve, they have said, each of them has said to the other, I’m going to do everything I can. You know, anytime I need to move or move house or change job, or whatever it is, in as much as it is in my control, I’m going to try to be within two hours of you know, that’s wonderful, which I just love that they may not see each other, like every week or something. But just to feel as though actually, I need this person in my in my orbit. And therefore, actually, that’s a big enough deal that it will shape some of the life decisions I make. Absolutely. That book by Drew Hunter is a good opportunity for me, as always, to thank crossway for what they do. One of the things they’re doing right now is is helping us get this podcast going and sponsoring it. So we’re very thankful to them for that. But that book is called made for friendship by Drew Hunter and I also want to read it and haven’t yet but can cheerfully recommend it confidently because I know Ray often raves about that book. And I’ve had many other people be profoundly helped by it. So that that would be a resource I think all of us would, would do well to, to look at TJ let me just honor you by by saying how deeply thankful to God I am for you. It’s it’s one of his greatest to me is to have you as a friend and to have you as a pastor, I pinch myself. So thankful.

T. J. Tims
Likewise, dear brother, I’m so grateful for your friendship.

Sam Allberry
Well, thanks for being with us. And thank you all for listening, and we’ll see you next time.