Pastor, Keep Running Your Race

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John Yates
Hello, everybody. My name is John Yates. We’re so glad you’re here. We’re so glad to be with you on the screen tonight, wherever you are watching this, we’re going to have a good time. This is a panel on how to run with endurance in the ministry. And just following our panel, there’s going to be a short talk by Michael Horton. And then following Michael Horton, there will be a second keynote talk by Julius kam. So we got a lot to look forward to. Tonight, we’re going to have a good time. I don’t know if you know, all of these men. There’s Matt Carter down there on the end, Matt is at Sagemont Church in Houston, Texas. He was the pastor of Austin Stone Community Church in Austin, Texas, up until just one year ago. So he’s been through some major changes in the last year. And then Vermon Pierre is from Phoenix, Arizona. For 16 years, Vermon has been the leader of Roosevelt community, church. And Afshin Ziafat is the lead pastor of Providence church in Frisco, Texas. He’s been there for about 11 years now, I think, and I’ve seen is a little different from the rest of us, his native land is Iran. And when he converted to Christ, that caused a terrible difficulties in his family. And I don’t know if we’ll hear anything about that tonight. But we said before we came in, this just going to be sort of like we’re sitting around Vermont’s family room talking tonight, about the ministry. And the challenge is it make it hard sometimes to endure? Each of us have had different stories. But we’re all married with families. And we’ve all carried huge responsibilities in church ministry, I in our individual calling, we’re really glad to have this opportunity to talk with you all. I actually am from Virginia, I have been a pastor for over 50 years. And I just stepped aside a couple of years ago. So Hallelujah. Thank you. So we’re here to talk about the challenge of maintaining vitality and joy and effectiveness in the ministry over the long haul. So we want to consider with you how to run with endurance, the race that God calls us to and ministry. I’m guessing in fact, I know that each one of us have had down times over the years when we’ve been tempted to quit. And so we want to talk about endurance in the ministry both objectively, but also just personally, as well. We’re not We’re not here necessarily, because we’re experts in how to persevere in the ministry. But just because we’ve got a lot of experience, and we’ve learned some lessons that we hope will be helpful to you hope to inform you and warn you and encourage you and instruct you from our experience. So this session is for it’s for people in ministry, not just for pastors, but for anybody who is seeking to serve Christ, effectively wherever you are, but because we are all pastors, that’s kind of the context in which we will address this question. You know, there have been a lot of studies done, you’ve probably read some about how hard it is for pastors to stay in the ministry. And I’m suspicious of statistics about pastors dropping out of the ministry. But we all know that that happens, and it happens frequently. And I’ve just got one quote the only quote, I’m going to read to you all night about challenges of the ministry because I laughed out loud when I read it. It’s written by a Michigan State University professor that did a study a few years ago on challenges of pastoral ministry. Let me read to you what he says. He says the breadth of tasks performed by local church pastors. Coupled with the rapid switching between task clusters and roles in this position is unique. I’ve never encountered such a fast paced job with such varied and impactful responsibilities. Performing all this is quota like performing all the different tasks required of most local church pastors would require 64 different personal competencies

John Yates
it’s almost inconceivable Both to imagine that a single person could be uniformly high on the 64, distinct knowledge, skills and abilities and personal characteristics. So, if you thought you were tired, that’s why so I want to just throw out to my friends hear, if you if you have indeed had times in your ministry, when you were so tired or frustrated that you felt like you wanted to quit or came near quitting, just tell us what it’s like. Or maybe an easier way to get into this is to say, what what in your experience are some of the reasons that cause us to want to quit? I wanted to quit many times during the ministry many times. And every time I went to the Lord and said, Lord, Can I leave now? He said, permission denied son remain in place. So I did go ahead, I did your story. What do you think are some of the reasons guys that, Ramon, what do you think are some of the reasons why?

Vermon Pierre
I think for a lot of people, it’s just a feeling of being sort of overburdened feeling as if you sort of carry the whole weight of the church, on you in that success of the church in almost any area, the success of not just Sunday morning, but the children’s ministry, the nursery, everything sort of depends on you, and you find yourself sort of just constantly running, trying to keep everything going, trying to keep everything in place. And that can be true, whether the church is doing well or is not doing so well just sort of have this sense of, of, it all falls on me. And if I would have if I mess up just a little bit, it’s all gonna fall apart. If it gets to the point. I know, this happened with me, where are you? I called, I’m grinding, right? I’m just sort of going through the motions, getting through each week. And there’s no joy there anymore. It’s just you’re just doing sort of the same type of things each day of the week, to get through into the next week. And you begin to ask yourself, so what, what’s going on? Like, is this really what I wanted to be doing? It’s not what I wanted to be doing. I didn’t get into this to be doing this kind of thing.

Afshin Ziafat
Yeah, I mean, I think there’s so many things we could talk about, in terms of why people in ministry struggle or want to quit, you know, obviously, burden the weight criticism that comes our way this past year has, I feel like we all I’m sure I’ve gone through, I feel like on every issue, be it, you know, politics or racial unrest, or, you know, pandemic masks, I mean, we’ve been critiqued like crazy. But man, I really think that there’s something really fundamental, on a foundational level, is really settling. Or maybe I should say, not being settled in, what your identity is in, and where your identity is rooted. I think that’s the main thing that goes off. And for me, you know, I’ve been pastoring for 1011 years. But before that, I was traveling and preaching. And, you know, coming from a Muslim background and becoming a Christian, I had this testimony that, you know, was was really powerful for what God did in my life. And so for to be opportunities to speak at different conferences, and everything and doors are being opened and, and slowly but surely, I feel like the Lord was allowing me to go into a place of just dryness and, and I remember sitting in my bed one night, and just wondering, Where’s the joy I had when I become a Christian, being able to, you know, by God’s strength, walk away from my my father and my family, because Jesus was enough for me, and not being able to sleep at night, literally at a youth camp, because I couldn’t believe that God would love me like that joy is gone. And I feel like the Lord was telling me if she and used to love me for who I am, but now you love me for what I give you what opportunities and I went to a scripture alley, this is in the middle of a 10 day period where I was just getting away fasting and just seeking the Lord one, what’s wrong. In the middle of this God led me to a passage in Exodus, where Moses leads the people out of the out of Egypt in his heading to the Promised Land, of course, they build the golden calf and God says, Look, you take your peoples first time he calls them your people, you take your people into the land, but I’m not gonna go in your mitts. And I read that and I felt like God was saying, if she you can have all this stuff, but but I’m not going to be in it. And I remember just going God if I don’t have you, don’t give me another ministry opportunity. I mean, this who cares? This is about you and how I want to know you, I want to worship you follow you. And right after that, if you keep reading Moses does essentially the same thing. If you don’t go with us, don’t take us into the land, that it was don’t give us the land. You know, the greatest thing about our lives, men and women is that we can know God and be known by him when When When the seventh day returned to Jesus, after he sent them out in Luke, they say, Man, even the demons are subject to us in Your name Jesus. And Jesus eventually says, Don’t rejoice that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your name is written in heaven. So where is your joy rooted in? Is it rooted in your ministry? Or is it rooted in your identity and your being a child of God? And so for me, I had to get to that point where I said, God, if you don’t go with me, I don’t I don’t want ministry. And so that was early in my ministry. But I think it was a moment that I had to go through to really put the flag in the ground that if the ministry goes away, I don’t care because what I need most is Jesus.

John Yates
So I’ve been reading Moses lately, my wife and I both been reading and there’s so much about Moses that you identify with in the ministry, because all of his problems had to do with the people. He, if it hadn’t been for the people, that would have been great. And you know, it’s, it’s the people in the church, who make the ministry so hard, and every minister worth his salt has said to his said to his secretary, or somebody chi for this one for the people around here, I think I would really love this work. But people let you down. And people jump on you and criticize you, especially this last year. And there’s a lot of nagging. And the other thing about our people is, we have the responsibility to walk with people through the most difficult moments of life. We it’s a great privilege. But it’s a huge weight and responsibility on us to have to deal with the tragedies that we face, we don’t always have the answers. And you just you come to the end of your own resources very quickly in the ministry. I don’t know that you have some thoughts. For me.

Matt Carter
It’s been it’s been physical, emotional, spiritual fatigue. And criticism have been the two things that had been the most significant for me. Tell quick story. I was I think it was one of these conferences and was walking outside. And I saw Matt Chandler and Matt and Matt and I know each other from Texas, and we’ve just talked like you do in conferences. And he was telling me the story. He said, Matt, I am worn out. And the example that he gave this was years ago. He said, I’m preaching for services a Sunday. And he said the other day, I got done with the Forest Service. I went, I got my car, put my hands on the steering wheel, and I just started weeping. And what went through my mind is, man, what, uh, when, you know, what, what kind of person cries just because you’re preaching a lot, you know? Well, my church and Austin started growing. And we were up the Forest Service’s at one point, and I think a preach 13 or 14 Sunday’s erode to enforce services. And I distinctly remember getting done with the Forest Service and get in my car, and just for no reason, I just started losing it. And I think we, you’re right, whatever those 63 things that we must be competent on. They were it’s completely out. And then criticism. And as you know, we talked about I just moved churches, I was the founding pastor of the Austin Stone was there for 18 years. And then, for some crazy reason, I took a job in Houston at an established church that had been there for 53 years, and I was the second pastor in their history. And I’ve gotten more negative emails in the last year than I probably have in the last 15 At my previous church, and it hit me one one day, I got a nasty email. And it hit me that this person that’s writing this email doesn’t really realize how the accumulative effect of multiple negative things that come into your life, and we carry a lot of that as pastors, and that just wears you down.

John Yates
Amen.

Afshin Ziafat
You know, on criticism, one of the things and by the way, that’s why I firmly believe in our model of church, which I believe is the biblical model, and that’s to be elder led, and we have a plurality of elders, we have six elders, so I never feel like I carry the criticism or the complaints or whatever on my own shoulder just just by myself and, and that’s certainly been so huge for me to have that. But you know, one of the things we as elders have verse in Second Corinthians one where Paul says that that my the testimony of my boasting is my my conscience, and I’m butchering it now, but he basically says that I behaved with godly sincerity and simplicity and One of the things that allowed us this past year, again, from both sides getting hit on every subject with emails, being able to put our head down on our pillow at night, just to say, you know, at the end of the day, we know that we’re, you know, because what’s been hard about leadership this year is mean, it’s easy to choose right or wrong. But we’ve had to make all of us have, we have to make decisions when there is no clear right answer. You know, and that’s real hard. Right?

Matt Carter
For me, what was the most difficult part about it is whatever decision I made regards to mass social discount, distancing, you knew you were upsetting somebody?

Afshin Ziafat
Yeah. And it’s not always that way. That’s when there’s no right answer. And by the way, to not make a decision is to make a decision, right, or to weigh this and make a decision. So but, you know, I knew that I could put my head down on my pillow at night in peace, because before God, we sought the Lord, we sought the counsel of the of the word, we sought Counsel of other brothers that we trust, and we made a collective decision that we thought was the best decision, and so that I can sincerely tell people that we did what was in the best interest for you, and then was the most God honoring. So I think that I don’t know if that’s helpful for you. But as you walk through criticism, to lean on that purse,

John Yates
yeah. Well, Mom, do you ever think seriously about walking away from the minister?

Vermon Pierre
Yeah, you know, we started Roosevelt church, in 2005. And for the first 11 years of the church, I mean, things are great. Like it were no real, I mean, usual, like church growing problems. But I remember a couple years in, I regret thinking this, I thought, Man, I, you know, I’ve heard every church goes through hard seasons, maybe we’re just one of those churches that that won’t have that happen. And and then the 2016 happened, and, you know, we’re multi ethnic, diverse church, and, and so well, first, the first half of the year, my associate pastor, significant moral failure. I mean, he was sort of the the most influential leader in our church besides me. And we ended up having to let them go. And so that was hugely disruptive to the church, it was like the first time something that’s significant that happened. And so people were sort of upset by that sort of with people who had been discipled by him and followed him. So that was disruptive. And then the election happens. And for a church like, like us, I mean, that was that was a, that was a huge issue was something that we as elder team decided we will address this. And, you know, we were upfront and saying, We think there are issues here that are worth US addressing, we think the church is the place that it should be addressed. And that we have a gospel that’s able to address these type of issues, that there are racial issues in our country for us to talk about and deal with. And so, and I sort of made this assumption that, you know, I’ve been pastoring a church for all these years, you know, there’s people in the church who remember back when we were setting up chairs, and all that kind of stuff. It gave me the benefit of doubt, they’d walk with me, and follow my lead. And as we sort of said, Hey, we’re gonna press into these things. And to see that not happen to see. And it wasn’t the majority of the church, I think that’s the thing about the criticism, was it a lot, it’s not, you know, a lot of times I’m like, you know, it’s not, I couldn’t almost think through a number of the people who were having the biggest issues, I think the thing that hurts is that it’s sort of this this group of people who are vocal, and includes some people that you thought you were close with some people, my brother, I walked with him, right, and to see them sort of turn and to sort of go right into mistrust and doubt, to see people accuse you of things that were just just wrong, just like flat out lies, slander, really. And to see them sort of double down on those things to see, even after he had a conversation with people by hey, here’s what we’re doing. And you think, like, yeah, that there they they got it, but then to realize no, like they they did, they didn’t agree and are going to be even more disruptive within the life of the church until other people. So all that was happening, you know, we were doing a number of different things in the end of 2016 sort of different roundtables and other things, and as a way of sort of helping us think through these issues. But some people said, you know, we, we don’t want to be in a church that talks about these things, which was, which, again, was hurtful. And as that happened, and especially as I was getting, you know, some people began to leave about maybe a third of the church left in 2016. And basically over really particularly, I mean, somewhat related to the the issue with associate pastor but then even more so with us dealing with issues of race. You know, to see people leave and you know, that’s I need to do a breakout session on how to leave a church well, because it was like they wanted to burn the bridge down everywhere around them. And so this route emails and all these other things things said about me, my wife, I remember thinking like, what am I doing? I don’t need to do this. I’ve got like a good degree from a good college. There’s other things I could be doing besides Besides this, like, I don’t want to keep having this happen. I don’t think I ever started looking for other jobs and like, you know, job searches or things like that. But I was I was actively thinking, like, this can’t continue. I can’t keep doing this. This is this isn’t worth it. And yeah, that was hard. It was a hard season. And I think, I mean, I’ll just give it sort of, I think what got me through this was a really strong elder team. And I think you can’t get through seasons like that you can’t endure ministry without a good elder team, a good staff around you. And so their, their willingness to say, hey, Ramon, we we believe in what you’re doing. And we we support it. And and that’s I said, we were agreement on every little thing, but just a sense of it. We’re going to work through this together. And then they encouraged me to take time off. And I was like, This is not a season for me to take time off. Their encouragement for me to do that just gave me clarity, reminded me why I was doing this reminded me of my love for Christ, and how that was true. And it was freed me from saying, I had to have my whole identity wrapped up in the church. I don’t you don’t? The church will continue past you. It will continue. But I mean, until the Lord carries for generations past you. What you have is your faith in the Lord. And that matters above all else. And that was just that freed me from from a lot of the things that I was struggling with.

Matt Carter
What about? Yeah, I came real close to quitting the ministry three years ago. And you asked me to share the short version of the story I will. I was at a significant season of fatigue, I would say burnout, I never really understood what that meant. I think I was there was definitely leading out of mind. Not really out of an overflow of my walk with Jesus at that time and, and was really for the first time in my life, and there’s a big backstory, but I was seriously contemplating leaving the ministry. So tired, so frustrated, and a friend of mine, that is, he’s literally a billionaire. He called me one day said, Matt, which come hang out with me, went to his ranch, we’re hanging out. And, you know, I’ve been praying like God, do you care if I leave? Do you want me to leave or whatever. So we go hang out at his ranch. And he said, Man, I’ve been thinking about it. And I would like for you to come to work for me at my company. And be come the head Chaplain over the entire corporation, which is massive, because I’d like to pay a $1.2 million a year. And I was like, I hear you, Lord. Yeah. Thank you, God. Clearly speaking to me today. I had a couple of days before I’d had a little spot off my ear removed a little mole. True story. We’re in the middle of the conversation, phone rings, it’s the dermatologist it was melanoma. So I had to look at him. I said, Man, I’ve got to go. I left and went dealt with that it was real early stage or cut it early. short time after that. Another really long story. But I got a call from the FBI. That and they came and picked me up and like what’s going on. And there was this credible threat on my life that the FBI had found and stopped before they carried it out. It was significant. It was real. The guy came really close to pulling it off and involve my family. And that shook me up. And and so at that point, I’m confirmed, I’m like, I’m, I’m done. I really think I’m gonna leave slack call the guy again. And I’m asking more questions about the job. And I was literally on the phone with him again. And my phone rings and it’s my son. And my son never calls because he’s in college and said, man, let me take this, I get it. My son, my son was in a horrible car accident. And we didn’t know he’s like, I think I’m okay. I’m not sure the car is stolen. They’re taking me in the ambulance by Sony way. completely wrecked me out. I’m driving as fast as I can to the ambulance to the hospital. first and only time in my life I’ve ever yelled at God. And I was like, God, what in the world are you doing? You know, I’ve got melanoma scars trying to take my life my son like you gotta kill somebody got killed me. And anyway, long story short, I was supposed to preach that Sunday. I called one of the other pastors and said, I can’t do it. I just don’t have it. And I had no idea what he was going to preach on, made myself go to church that Sunday, and I walk in there and sit on the front row. He’s preaching on Jonah. And he gets to that text, which talks about the Lord whore hurled storms at Jonah to get him to go and fulfill the calling on his life and he’s preaching got him Ross list. And then Ross, just in the middle of it sort of stops He says, You know, I don’t think I’ve ever done this before. But I feel extremely compelled right now by the Holy Spirit to say this. And then he turns to the congregation and said, If there’s anyone here that is running from the call of God on their lives, and the Lord is hurling storms that you would you stand up. And I stood up on the front row of my church bawling like a baby. And I made the decision right then and there, that I’m not going to leave this calling, unless God calls me out of it. But I’m not going to do it for another reason. And And ever since then, if anybody ever suggests anything, I’m like, I’m not leaving the ministry. Man. I’m out. I’m good.

John Yates
Well, that’s a really dramatic story. I appreciate your sharing that with us, you know, does it surprise you that some of the really outstanding pastors in the country face this temptation to leave the ministry, it doesn’t surprise me. I think that there are things to be aware of in your own spirit that can alert you that you’re getting worn down, you’re getting worn out, irritable illness, a lack of love for people, when you find you just can’t handle one more person. I think you both couple of you mentioned loss of joy in the ministry. Maybe you get angry, frequently, or depressed. Or I think sometimes we go through periods when we’re we lose our vision, we don’t have any vision, we don’t really know where we’re going, or what we’re doing. That’s very discouraging. It’s easy to get so exhausted, that you get down on yourself, I should be able to do better i What’s wrong with me. When they’re more bad days than good days, these are all signs to be aware of. You know, we are, we’re focused on the book of Hebrews in this conference. And there’s a great verse that I’d like us to take a few minutes to just consider together from Hebrews 12, verses one to three. And I’m sure we’re gonna hear a great message on this before the week is over. But listen to this, we talk about it a bit. Since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance, the race marked out for us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of our faith. For the joy set before Him, He endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured such opposition from centers, so that you will not grow weary, and lose heart so that you will not grow weary and lose heart at three or four points here in this passage that dislike to think about a minute. First of all, he says, Being surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. I don’t think this is just referring to all the saints who’ve gone before us and who’ve died, although that’s very important. But it’s also important to have heroes to have mentors to have cheerleaders and encourages, who have modeled healthy ministry and who are in your life who are encouraging you. I don’t know if any of you all want to speak to that.

Afshin Ziafat
I think, you know, the church that I pastor, was planted out of the village church, actually in 2005. And there was a pastor, the founding pastor who was there five years and had a lot of struggles in his life and was actually asked to step down. And he actually ended up over overdosing and passing away. It was a very tragic thing and great preacher, love Jesus and love this family, wonderful family and, and so then obviously, the Lord called called me there. Once I got there, I started hearing stories about him, and it did remind I kept hearing how removed I felt like he was from a lot of the people in the church that didn’t really actually know him well. And so back to being surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses, obviously, that’s referring to the Hebrews 11, the Hall of Faith, these examples that we have, but I think a pastor does need to be surrounded by people who know Him who love Him, who can speak truth and honesty, you know, to him, and you know, I’ve heard pastors sometimes say, Man, I just can’t have a friend in my church. And I’m just like, what? I mean, I think that’s the one of the most dangerous things, folks, if you feel like you can’t have friends inside your church, that’s very dangerous. And so for me, the elders, my wife and I, so we were supposed to have a sabbatical that last year, three months sabbatical, COVID, blew it up. And so after 10 years, I was gonna take a sabbatical. And so we didn’t get our rest. And man, it’s been a very difficult year with everything going on. And man, my marriage, we’re doing great, but we got three kids. And it’s just, and there was a moment where we just really felt like, man, the enemy is on the attack. And so literally being able to raise my hand and text the elders and say, I need you guys to pray for me. I need to, I need to focus on my marriage. So I just told our executive pastor to take care of staff meeting and for me to go and meet with Tim Harkins, a guy on our staff was a care guy, and really just but to be able to do that freely. And I just think we have blind spots. And if you don’t have people in your life, very close, who can who can watch and see, like you mentioned, there’s irritability or man, you don’t have love for people like he used to, because you don’t sense it sometimes. And you need those folks around you to be able to see it and to be able to speak honestly, to you. Yeah.

Vermon Pierre
It’s helpful to have relationships outside the church. And so having friendships within the church, but then, you know, taking advantage of conferences like this to meet other pastors, this is a unique opportunity to meet other pastors in your area that you can connect with. And so, you know, I’ve had great opportunities to chat with pastors through gospel coalition is another network that were part of the surge network that’s local to Phoenix, or local to Arizona, I should say, and just the ability to, especially this past year, to say, Hey, how are you handling this issue? And some all young people are saying this in my church, and to be Oh, but that’s the things happened to me. How are you dealing with that? How you feeling about that? In some ways, it’s a good place to people to unburden yourself, sometimes it’s just a just ability to share and someone that people say, oh, yeah, me, too, is hugely helpful. And to have, especially the older pastors that you’re network with, who can say, hey, I went through it right in the 60s, or the 70s, or whatever it is, and here’s how you get through it, here’s how you can also get through it is hugely helpful in encouraging.

Matt Carter
I think there’s two things that I try to remind myself to make sure that I have with people in my life, specifically, cement is I think we need for those folks around us, I think you need to give them permission to speak in your life. And I think at the same time, they’ve got to have proximity to your life. And so those two things are key permission, and proximity. Because a lot of times you’re close to men around you, you’re close to your staff, you’re close to your elders. But pastors don’t give them permission to speak into their life when they see witnesses, to check on him spiritually, emotionally, physically. And so they’re close to them that proximity, but they’ve never given permission to speak into their character. And then there’s some situations where guys have given other pastors permission to speak in their life, but they don’t have the proximity. I’ll give you an example. I’m very good friends with Dan Patrick, who lost his life and, and lost his ministry. Few years before that. I loved him. We were like brothers. And Darren had given me permission to speak into his life on any issue, to challenge him on anything. But we were 20 hours away from each other. We didn’t have that proximity. And yet the men in his life, he’d never that he had proximity with, he’d never given that permission.

Afshin Ziafat
So I think permission and proximity because he’s got David, think of David who literally sees a woman bathing and asks who she is, and, and they say, well, that’s Uriah is wife, and then he calls for her. And no one goes, Did you hear me? It’s not your wife, it’s someone else’s wife. And no one had the permission to say, No, you’re not going there, even though there are right around him, right. And so that’s a good word that you have to have have both of those. One of my favorite verses is in First John, where it says, if we walk in the light of season and light, we have fellowship with one another, but what kind of fellowship very next verse says, If we say we do not sin, we lie and the truth is not in us. So it’s not a fellowship, where you are around people, but no one really knows what’s going on. But it’s a fellowship where you’re confessing sin. And man, that’s again, and we all know that’s the hard part of being a pastor is we feel like, you know, wrongly, that we have to somehow hide our sin from our people. And I think if You get in that position, that’s exactly where the enemy wants you to be to take you out. And you have to be able to have a group of men in your life. Who you who you can say, hey, you need to know I’ve messed up, I’m walking down the wrong road. If you say you do not send you lie, the truth is not in us.

John Yates
That that passage goes on to talk about in verse one. running the race marked out for you. Run the race marked out for us. Guys, how important is it? To know to be deeply assured in your heart that you have been called by God to this particular ministry?

Afshin Ziafat
I think it’s sorry, if I’m jumping right back in, but I think it’s, it’s huge. So for me, when my father disowned me when I became a Christian, because my dad’s a Muslim, and my relationship with him was restored, but only on a provisional basis, as long as I go and be a doctor, and make him proud of me. And that was the plan. I was going to go to med school, and God called me into ministry, and I was running from it until actually a guy came and preached very similarly on Jonah, and pointed me out and said, It’s like I’ve seen over there, he’s gonna stop running from God, to go into ministry. And I was like, Okay, I got it. So I told my dad, and he called it. I said, you know how much I want you to be proud of me, Dad, but I’m going to ministry. So not only what I never be proud of you, but I’ll always be ashamed of you as long as I live. And it’s the hardest thing worse to hear from your father. But I was headed up to the Dallas Fort Worth area to go to seminary, and I have never felt the peace of God all over me like on that trip up last 45. And people say, Man, I don’t have a piece yet. So I’m not going to make the decision. For me. It’s actually been the decisions always been really gut wrenching. But it’s after I make the decision that the piece floods in and and for me when criticism or when, man, what am I doing? Why am I walking away? My whole family thinks I’m ridiculous. There’s been several times I’m like, my doing the right thing. God, you know, because for 30 something years, my dad just passed away this past summer, and in a strange relationship with my dad. And how many times does the enemy go? You’re an idiot? What are you doing? Go back to your dad. But what just kept me going was to remember that drive up by 45. And remember that God’s peace was all over me affirming that call? Yeah, I think it’s important.

Matt Carter
I, I had a fairly dramatic call to the ministry. It’s something that I can’t deny that the Lord called me. And I can’t tell you how many times I’ve gone back to that, that remember that moment, when he called me. There’s a song came out years and years ago in the early 90s, by the newsboys. And it’s a song sung from the perspective of Peter and he’s in jail. He’s about to die for the sake of Christ, and it looks out the window, the jail and rain starts falling in a lot of the songs as water still reminds me of the seaside where I first met. And the idea is, is that he’s about to give his life for Christ. And he remembers the moment where his eyes met Jesus eyes for the very first time. And I can’t tell you how many times when I’ve wanted to quit, I go back to the beach, I go back to the seaside where my eyes first met his and I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that it wasn’t about money. It wasn’t about anything, it was about following him no matter what. And that calling has anchored me more times than I can count.

John Yates
We we’ve only got about five minutes left. And I don’t want to miss this one. That passage goes on to say throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles and I just want to ask this question brothers, have you learned to recognize attitudes or habits that hinder your own well being in the ministry? And are what are sins we can easily fall into? What what hindrances Do you see that are common for us to fall into? And maybe how can we avoid them?

Vermon Pierre
Well, for me, it’s it’s the degree in which I think I take on the attributes of God and my ministry and thinking that I need to sort of do things that only the Lord can do you know, and really was Zack gas wines book, sensing Jesus and also imperfect pastor I think that really helped me sort of realize this about myself was just sort of this this idea that almost I have to have to be everywhere have the omnipresent I’ve got to be on the opponent. I’ve got to have control and authority over everything. I’ve got to be omniscient certainly this last year I got to know something about everything right. And and I begin to realize like that’s I’m occupying a place that that does not work in I mean, only God is really good at being God, right? I’m not good at doing it. And I don’t have to know everything right. I don’t Have to be everywhere. I can admit when I’m wrong. I think all those things, just identifying those things clearly and myself, and then beginning to realize the degree in which I was moving those directions was helpful. And because when I move in those directions, that thing then leads to all the other things that we’re talking about. That’s when I feel tired, exhausted, I’m doing the things that I humanly can’t do, because I’m human. And I want God to be God. And I just want to be pointing people to him, and hopefully fulfilling the role that God has called me to.

Matt Carter
I think we all have blind spots. And I And for me, it goes back to that permission is being able to speak and to give permission to the men in my life, to say, hey, I have blind spots, you have blind spots, I want you to let me know, if you see issues of my character, and see issues in my leadership that I may not be aware of. And I’ve done that. And it’s not been easy. Because my elders have taken me up on it over the years, and have sat me down and said, Man, when you’re when you do this, this is how people receive it. Man, you’re doing this, do you realize you’re doing that, and those are difficult conversations to have. But I believe I’m a better leader, and a better follower of Christ today, because I gave those guys the permission to speak into that a lot of guys don’t. And so they spend their whole careers in the same ruts that they they’ve always been in.

John Yates
You got to learn to listen, you got to learn to listen to your wife, when she tells you something you don’t want to hear. You’ve got to learn to listen to your critics. They’re not always right. You got to learn to listen to your staff. You got to learn to listen to yourself. And when you when you get away, and you’re self reflecting on how things are going in your life, and you see errors you you’ve made, or habits that you’ve developed, that are not good, and you realize you got to make changes, we’ll make those changes. Don’t just think about it, make those changes as you’ve got to make with God’s help. Listen to God.

John Yates
Well, there’s a lot more than we wish we had time to talk to you about tonight.

John Yates
But I trust this has been helpful as we tried to speak openly and honestly to you.

Afshin Ziafat
Yeah. So I think you know, looking back to that calling again, and remembering, but then looking forward to not only the ultimate, which is being face to face with Jesus, and hearing well done good and faithful servant. Like that’s what motivates me to keep going every day to endure. But also, before eternity, being on my deathbed, and hopefully seeing my children following Jesus and my wife, loving Jesus. And and at that moment, you’re just not going to care about anything else. I think all the criticism all the and so for me, a guy named Neil Jeffery, who I really look up to, was huge in my life. And he said, every time he pulls into his driveway, when he leaves work, he stops and he says a prayer and He says God, and he just captures this. I’m about to walk in to the greatest Ministry of my life. And he asked to pray and set his mind to that before he walks in. And that’s stuck with me. And I try to do that every time I pull in. Because at the end of the day, that’s what matters the most. So

John Yates
one thing we haven’t said is we all believe in the importance of ministering as a part of a team and not trying to do everything yourself. We got a great new book that’s just come out, called the plurality principle, the plurality principle, and it’s based on the idea of encouraging us and helping us know better how to develop ministry teams in our churches. Well, I want to pray for you all. And then we’re going to move on to the next thing. Dear Lord, I thank you for these men and women of God are seeking to serve you and to know you. I thank you that you call us into the work of making disciples, and leading and guiding your people. I pray for refreshment upon these men and women encouragement, and a great clear sense of calling that never deserts them. We ask this in the name of Jesus, amen.