Ligon Duncan Interviews New TGC President Mark Vroegop

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Ligon Duncan
Well, good afternoon, everyone. I’m ligand Duncan, the Chancellor and CEO of Reformed Theological Seminary, but I’m on this call because I am a council member and a board member of the gospel coalition. I’ve served on the council from the beginning, and I’ve been on the board now for a number of years, and I’m the chairman of the governance committee of the board, and it was my joy and privilege to serve as the Chairman of the Presidential Search Committee. And so I get to introduce you to the new president of the gospel Coalition, which gives my heart great joy. And that new president of the gospel coalition is a fellow Board and council member. In fact, he chaired the committee on our board that gave attention to TGC operations. And so I want to introduce you with great joy to my friend Mark broga.

Mark Vroegop
Thank you so much, brother. It’s quite an honor. Well,

Ligon Duncan
I want to ask you about you, because I want, I want our TGC supporters and people that benefit for the ministry of TGC to know about you. And let’s just start with personal life. Could could you tell us just a little bit about some turning points in your life? Just share with us how the Lord has worked in your life, in your walk with Christ. Maybe point us to some people that have been very significant, or there might be some hardships and sufferings that you would want to share with us. Just talk with us a little bit about your personal experience. Yeah,

Mark Vroegop
glad to you know I was so privileged to be raised in a Christian home with parents who love Jesus, and at an early age, I heard the gospel, and there’s a big woods behind our house, and after hearing the gospel presentation so clearly and feeling a deep conviction of my own need and a sense of God’s drawing, I walked out into the woods unconverted, and came back converted. In those woods, I gave my heart and life to Jesus. And what’s interesting is that in the same moment that I gave my heart and life to Jesus, I also felt a clear call to gospel ministry. I remember sitting in the church that we were attending at the time and hearing the word being preached. And as a very young boy, my earliest memories are of a heart just a fire, thinking that’s what I want to do with my life, and just love the word loved church, and by God’s grace, set out on that path at a very young and early age. I met my wife, Sarah while in college, and together we entered into pastoral ministry, where I served in Howland, Michigan for 11 years, and then for the last 16 years, we’ve served at College Park church in in Indianapolis. And you know, one of the most significant events in our life happened in 2004 where we had a stillborn daughter, and after three successful children that were born to us, two twins, a set of twins, rather and a son, had a daughter that passed away in utero just a few days before delivery. And you know, that was a test of my theology and of My perseverance and of my belief in God’s ability to help sustain us through some of the darkest moments. And you know, at the time that was that was a very difficult season, also still pastoring a church and having to care for people. And then there were multiple miscarriages after that, and then finally conceiving a child who was then born to us, our daughter, Savannah. But the nine months of her pregnancy were just excruciating, and it was through that that the Lord tuned my heart to the language of lament. And so I’ve spent a lot of time in the last six or seven years unpacking that language and seeing the way in which God meets us in our darkest hours and that our theology matters when when the bottom falls out of life, if you will. So I’m a happy follower of Jesus. Love being married to my wife, love being a parent and now a grandparent and excited for this next chapter of our life.

Ligon Duncan
You’ve been doing ministry for a long time, and I think that that’s one thing that all of us appreciate about you. You’re a pastor, and you’re a pastor’s pastor, and we love that, because the gospel coalition began as a coalition of pastors, as a fellowship of gospel centered pastors who wanted to encourage one another and wanted to encourage other pastors and churches in ministry. So could you talk just a little bit about your ministry and maybe start with your call to ministry. Talk about how that happened.

Mark Vroegop
Yeah, so from the very earliest memory that I can have, I wanted to be involved in in gospel ministry and pastoral ministry. And I remember, you know, sitting in church and and seeing an outline and thinking about how I would. Um, teach a Bible passage, and like as a very young boy, and so this was the sense of God’s sovereign calling upon my, my my life. And then, you know, by His grace, I was able to serve in my first church in in Western Michigan at about age 25 and was love serving that church, which was a great church. They took a risk on me and and I on them. And then 2008 began serving at College Park church here in in Indianapolis. And you know what I love about pastoral ministry is I love seeing lives changed. I love seeing people encounter the Lord Jesus and what he can do. I mean, I’ve had a front row seat for 30 years on the best and the worst moments of people’s lives. The best being when Jesus has brought life change. And I’ve seen marriages turn around lives turn around people converted. I’ve seen the way in which the spirit is is able to apply the word and help someone to take their next step and what it means to be a follower of Jesus. So I love the church. I love my church. I love the churches that I’ve served in. I think there’s something just incredible about the regular gathering of God’s people on Sundays, as a pastor, is heralding the inerrant Word of God to people who so desperately need it, because the world in which they live is live is complicated and a lot of brokenness and a lot of hardship, and we have the answer and the hope of what it means for them to to live and find ongoing peace and fulfillment in the personal work of Jesus. So I just love being a pastor. What

Ligon Duncan
are your passions in ministry? All of us are built just a little bit different. Some of us, you know, we love preparation for preaching, or some people love the ministry of prayer, or some people love the ministry of visitation. What’s what gets you up in the morning? What do you have fire in your belly for in pastoral ministry? Yeah,

Mark Vroegop
well, we’ll start from a theological perspective. What the fire my belly is is I believe in a big God, God who’s sovereign, a God who works all things together for good, for those who love and know Jesus, I also have a delight in the preeminence of Jesus and making much of him in our worship and in our proclamation. And then also, I have a deep passion to make that big God theology really work in the lives of people in the real world. So if you kind of pound the table, what am I all about? It’s I like to see real life change, and I like to see people and I like to see churches grow, and maybe even kind of turn around and or be involved in renewal movements, if you will. And I’ve been a part of a number of them, in churches and in communities where it just seems as though God is on the move, doing something special. I love seeing the way in which, over time, there is to use the Eugene Peterson phrase a long obedience in the same direction. One of the joys of being in two churches for over a decade is you get to see the the long, slow, steady progress of sanctification in the life of of God’s people. You see people have children, and then those children begin to follow Jesus and and so you see the highs and lows and how the gospel preserves them and and helps them to be be faithful in their generation.

Ligon Duncan
Can you tell us about some of the roadblocks that you’ve faced as you’ve walked with Christ in life and in ministry? Yeah,

Mark Vroegop
I mean, there’s, you know, a number of them. I think one of the things I would highlight the most is, you know, I’m a driven person. I like to, I like to do things. In fact, my last name in Dutch means literally early up. So my people are known as we get up early. We get after it. And, you know, it’s very useful in the context of of pastoral ministry, I can kind of click into a sort of fifth gear, but there’s a shadow side to that. And the shadow side is that trusting God is central to what it means to be a follower of Jesus and to be a pastor. And throughout my lifetime, I’ve had to work hard at what it means to really trust God. That’s one of the things that suffering does, is it sort of kicks out the self sufficiency support system that we might think that we have, and so learning what it means to trust God in all of the circumstances of life. And then, you know, through 2020 through 2024 when the whole or 2023 rather, when life was just super complicated at so many spaces, the Lord really taught me what it means to wait upon him. So I’m thankful for a wiring of, hey, I want to do something for the Kingdom. I want to see things go from one point to another. But the downside of that is also learning to trust the Lord and to rely on Him, not as a Plan B, but as as as Plan A.

Ligon Duncan
Mark, you’ve been involved with TGC for a while now, from your vantage point as a council member, as a board member, now as the president of. Of TGC? How does TGC support the ministry of the church? Yeah,

Mark Vroegop
that’s a great question, and I think that is the role of TGC. At the end of the day, TGC exists to help renew and unify the contemporary church in the ancient gospel. That’s why TGC exists, and I think we can help in a number of ways. One is by convening Christian leaders on a regular basis. I think someone once said that revival happens among friends. Well, so does problem solving and creativity and understanding how one brother is doing one thing in his city could be super helpful to another brother in another city. And I can think most of the ideas that we’ve had at my church over the last 10 years, they weren’t our ideas. There was somebody else that was a little bit ahead of us. So finding those mentors, I think, is a key for pastoral perseverance and for for for long term credibility and creativity. I think the other thing is that TGC is a collection of some of the best and brightest thinkers and writers and pastors and leaders, and we have within that sort of intellectual capital pool some amazing opportunities to deliver content to people that can help them get quick, concise answers to really complex problems. I mean, that’s how I’ve used TGC over the years when I’m like, What do I how do I say this? Or what’s an easier way for me to think about this particular subject, or a clear articulation of how the gospel connects to this? TGC is one of the first places that I go, and so in that respect, we’re able to equip the church, resource the church, and then also to convene the church so that the church can take the gospel and apply it to all of life in ways that are really meaningful and important.

Ligon Duncan
TGC co founder Tim Keller, often spoke of cultural apologetics. Can you explain what we mean by cultural apologetics, and how understanding that might be helpful?

Mark Vroegop
Yeah, so cultural apologetics is the integration of biblical truth to cultural challenges, specific questions that every society and culture is asking in the particular moment. So the reason cultural apologetics is important is because the gospel matters and it applies in every generation. But here’s the thing, not every generation is asking the same questions. So if you go back to 1980 1960 1900s 1800s say, same gospel, different context, and one of the things that’s really important for us to do is to exegete our present cultural moment, to know how does the Bible apply in this particular situation, and to have really well thought through answers to the compelling questions that the culture is asking, to be able to help people know this. This is biblical truth, and this is how it relates to the craving of your heart, the societal need of the moment and the most pressing problems, and that that takes a lot of thought, and that takes skill, takes wisdom and cultural apologetics matter because the gospel applies in every generation, but it doesn’t apply in the same way to the same issues in every generation. How

Ligon Duncan
would you describe what Tim and Don founded in TGC, and why was it attractive and important to

Mark Vroegop
you? Well, you know, what they founded was a gospel centered ministry in the context of relationships, and that’s just a beautiful combination, where you get the gospel centered, and you the gospel the center, and you get love and commonality. That’s something the Holy Spirit has historically used, and he has in the context of evangelicalism in the United States. I mean, I don’t know where the gospel centered conversation would be today, were it not for Don Carson and Tim Keller? I went back and listened to some of Don Carson’s original message at that first gathering that you were referenced, where they invited, you know, 40 pastors, and 40 of them showed up, and they had a little conference and and that that sermon was prophetic and, and it’s just amazing. Here we are now, 20 years later, the level of impact has just been been profound. And I think it just shows that when you get the gospel right and you get relationships right, amazing things happen when you get either of those two things wrong or there’s a detraction from either of them. In combination, it really the church begins to get unhealthy. And I think one of the unique opportunities for the gospel coalition is in a day and age when the gospel is being challenged, and in a day and age when people are dividing and separating from each other, we gotta figure out how to hold the center together. We love the gospel. Come on, let’s follow Jesus together and be sure that we can support one another and be sure we know that our King is Jesus, the enemy is Satan. And these brothers, let’s walk together and see how we can advance the cause of Christ together.

Ligon Duncan
Mark, what are some of the things that you think that TGC has accomplished in its 20 year history?

Mark Vroegop
Yeah, I mean, I mentioned one already, which. Just bring in the whole idea of gospel centered ministry to the forefront. And what is gospel centered preaching? What is gospel centered teaching? What’s gospel centered ministry? I think another thing is just the idea of that center bound set, rather than trying to police, you know, who’s in, who’s out, but instead to have some core theological commitments and then to invite people who would agree with those commitments, let’s be in fellowship together. Let’s work together. I think another thing by I think everyone’s sort of surprise was the success of the website and the unbelievable amount of content that TGC has been able to deliver. You know, when Tim and Don started TGC, they thought they were just going to have some conferences, and they just happened to time it with the launch of the internet and websites and podcasts and and everything else. And it’s a bit of a providential Lightning in a Bottle kind of a thing. I mean, 30 million viewers a year. I mean, it’s just, it’s just incredible, the kind of of a blessing of the Lord upon the the ministry of TGC and and there’s more to come, like there’s a wide field of ministry that’s still out there for the gospel coalition, and continue to explore being faithful to the gospel, but also thinking through, how do we help apply this in every arena of Life?

Ligon Duncan
What sets TGC apart from other online media outlets.

Mark Vroegop
I think what separates TGC is one, you have a wide array of writers and contributors. So there’s not a singular person, even from the beginning, you got Tim and Don, but it’s two of them. But from the right, from the beginning, it was the platforming of a number of voices, and the invitation for a number of people to contribute, to understand how we apply the gospel from a variety of backgrounds. I think that’s that’s one, one thing. I think also TGC thinking through how to apply the gospel very specifically into a lot of different areas, so that, depending on what your area of interest is from from preaching to Bible study to the arts and culture to particular issues that are sort of niche in terms of their subject matter, TGC has something on nearly everything. And it’s it’s remarkable the breadth of what TGC is able to offer, along with the depth in terms of content, and it’s just, it’s remarkable, the level of resource that TGC is. What do

Ligon Duncan
you think are the challenges and opportunities before TGC right now? Yeah,

Mark Vroegop
we’ll start with opportunities. You know, with a wide array of voices and a massive platform on the internet. TGC doesn’t have to build it. It’s already there. The question is how to be able to continue to deliver content and to convene leaders so that the gospel can continue, can continue to flourish in the the context of of local churches, I think there’s, there’s lots of opportunity to think further about the the faith and work dynamic, and how do we continue to not just minister and serve pastors and local churches, but also faith leaders who are in the in the marketplace, a really Strategic, strategic role. And then I think some of the challenges, you know, we live in an age where, again, there’s so much content coming people’s way. TGC needs to continue to be an organization that people can trust that the material that we’re producing is faithful and biblical and tested, also that helps support local churches and local church pastors, we’re we’re not. TGC isn’t Plan A. Plan A is the local church. TGC is Plan B, and we exist to help the local churches become healthier and to flourish. I think also, it’s a challenging cultural moment, because there’s, there’s so much raw energy as it relates to division, who’s against, who? What Jersey do you wear? What team do you are you on? We kind of start with, Hey, What team are you on, before we even ask the question, what is it that you think about, or what is it that you believe? And so I think it’s an important moment to demonstrate how people who may have differing views that are outside of the boundaries of Orthodox Christianity and convictional Christianity. How do we get along and how do we model that in a way that I think could say something really powerful to the world, and could maybe be a model even for how we could conduct ourselves in our local churches. So that spirit of the age, I think, is a is a real challenge. And I I know TGC can model what charitable and convictional Christianity looks

Ligon Duncan
like. Can you share just a little bit about your family? Mark, yeah,

Mark Vroegop
happy to so my wife and I have four children. We have twin boys that are married, and those are the twins that God sent to us as just before I became the senior pastor of the church that we served in in Holland. So I stepped in the senior pastor world with some pretty big responsibilities and a big responsibility at home, those boys are married. They have two children between them, so we have two grandchildren, two on the way. Have another son that’s that’s married, and then a daughter, who’s a freshman in college this year. So we are technically empty nesters. Have a mother in law that we love, and she’s lived with us for the last 10 years. So we have a home that’s full of hospitality and activity and just thankful that my kids love Jesus, and in fact, our two sons who live in Indy are in our church that we presently serve in, and just thankful for God’s grace in our home.

Ligon Duncan
Mark You are a happy pastor in a healthy church in what is maybe the happiest, healthiest season of your ministry in that congregation for some time, what led you to be open to to consider and then eventually to take The responsibility of being the President of the gospel coalition, even though you love your people, you love them with all your heart. You love that local church. God is blessing that ministry. What led you to this move?

Mark Vroegop
Yeah, it’s a great question. I almost it’d be easier if I didn’t like my local church, making this move right. It would be but my wife and I, and my my kids are so thankful for the work of God’s grace at College Park church, and we, we love our church dearly. In fact, that’s been the hardest thing to consider. You know, I mentioned before, in season and out of season. We’re in an in season right now. Like things literally have never been healthier, never been more unity, never been more sense of momentum, and yet, here’s the thing, when we sent our daughter off to college, my wife and I began talking about, what is this season of empty nesting look like for us, and what are some dreams that we’d love to do stewarding 30 years of of pastoral ministry. And we began to talk about, well, maybe one day we could be in a role where we could have more direct influence on pastors, and maybe more direct influences on the big C church, or more influence on churches, if you will, or movements that are taking place. So I just have a heart to be able to encourage pastors and to pastor pastors, if you will. And you know, after we had that conversation and even kind of laid out some plans and what that might look like in my 60s, maybe at my local church. That’s when you league reached out, and it was we saw it as a providential sort of aha moment. Well, maybe God’s inviting us to take that very thing, but maybe move it up earlier than what we are anticipating. And so I’m not excited to be leaving quote, unquote, my church, although we’re planning to be able to remain there as members and continue to worship there, but what I am looking forward to is the opportunity for a renewed focus in my life and ministry, to be able to leverage and steward the last 30 years I’ve made a lot of mistakes, learned a lot of things, tried a lot of things, seen God work in good seasons and in hard seasons. And I want to help encourage pastors. I want churches to thrive, and I’d love to be able to see the resources of the gospel coalition leveraged to be able to help lots of pastors and lots of churches. And that’s something we’re excited to give the next quarter of our life to and see how God’s going to use that.

Ligon Duncan
I think there may be somebody listening to us today who wants to know a little bit about this process. Mark and so I’ll share this was a very extensive and intensive process. The Board of the gospel coalition appointed a search committee, a presidential search committee that consisted of both board and council members and also a representative, Nancy Guthrie, who is often spoken for the TGC Women’s Conference, has great relationships with many of the women involved in women’s ministry in the TGC orbit, and so on that committee was Juan Sanchez, who’s the chairman of the board, Andy Davis, who’s the vice chairman of the board, Ryan Quan, wonderful pastor in California. HB Charles, wonderful pastor in Jacksonville, Florida. Nancy Guthrie, and yours truly, and for I had the privilege of serving as the chairman of that Presidential Search Committee. We had well over 60 names given to us from council members, board members, staff. We went and talked to our staff many of those names. Came from our council. Many of the names were people outside of the council, but connected to TGC in a variety of ways. And as a committee, we worked through all of those names, and we developed a short list, and then Ryan Kwan suggested, you know, we really need to have some consultants walk with us through this process so that we can interview in a in a good and thorough way, the candidates for this position. And we did that. We reached out to Bill Hendricks and Tommy Thomas, and they did a wonderful job consulting with us, I must say, Mark, I think your name was given to me by more people from every direction than any other name. So it in many ways, it didn’t surprise me that in the end I was talking to you about this. I loved our conversations all along the way, and I love your theological convictions, I love that. Your very evident love for Christ, your love for the local church, your love for the scriptures, your pastoral orientation, your leadership gifts, which are very, very evident to those of us. I’ve been able to watch those a little bit on the on the board, and I appreciate that so much your vision for TGC, your experience with TGC, the way TGC has been attractive and encouraging to you, and I’m just looking forward to see the Lord bless you in your leadership in TGC. So the Presidential Search Committee met with you, interviewed you, after getting all that input from our consultants and then made a recommendation to the Board of Trustees. And the way it works at at at TGC is the board makes a nomination to the council, and then the council elects the new president. So I just want folks that are listening to us today to know how seriously we took this process, how prayerfully we took the process, how we sought input from staff and from the council, and really left no stone unturned and then the Presidential Search Committee, I felt from The very beginning, we were of one heart and mind, and we were of one heart and mind when it came to making this recommendation of you mark to the board. And so I just it was, for me, it was also poignant, because I saw a man who was happy in pastoral ministry and loved his people. And at one level, I felt, Lord, you are going to get me if this is not the right thing to do for this dear brother, because he is so fruitful in the local church. But at another level is that’s exactly the kind of lead, that kind of pastoral leadership, just that that’s Don and Tim’s vision from the beginning, I just felt like, Yeah, this is exactly what TGC needs right now. So brother, I’m just I’m so excited to follow your leadership and to have you in this role, and I just wanted the folks listening to us today to know how seriously and prayerfully we took the process and how we sought counsel. We sought wise counsel and mark you. And I’ve talked, I think you even learned some things about your ministry and your makeup, even in the process of talking with the consultants that you felt were very edifying and helping you in terms of self understanding,

Mark Vroegop
yeah, and it was a rigorous process, for sure, and I think it needed to be, and I thank God for that. And you know, one of the assurances that my wife and I needed was that the rigorous evaluation of me was part of the dynamic to confirm if this indeed was what the Lord wanted us to do. I prayed often God, I don’t want to leave a church that I love if this is a mistake, so I need you to work through this process, and then additionally, just the connections that the search team made with the search firm. You know, I’ve worked with a lot of search firms in my pastoral career, and this process was like one unlike I’d ever seen, and was one that was really helpful in clarifying to really get to the kind of pound the table core of what, what are we absolutely passionate about, and how does that fit with the role at TGC? And it was just remarkable to see the, I think, providential overlap of the longing of our hearts, the conversation about the future and this particular moment for the gospel coalition. And we’re we’re excited and ready and also intimidated and prayerful all at the same time, because TGC is an important ministry, and I love local church. Is I love my local church, and I want to do whatever we can to help the gospel flourish and for churches and pastors to be encouraged in the gospel work.

Ligon Duncan
Well, what on that line mark? What do you think that Christians and local churches need from TGC in the next five years?

Mark Vroegop
Yeah, I think they need to understand what exactly it looks like to apply the gospel to all of life, and how that relates to ongoing spiritual renewal. So just think of what are the things in 2025 that individual believers need to grow in, and how can they engage the gospel in new ways, and while never replacing their local church, TGC can is able to come along and offer supplemental spiritual resources to help sort of fan the flames of their own spiritual development and their renewal. I hope that year after year, people would see TGC as one of the ways that God used one of the things that God used, rather, to help them grow in their relationship with Jesus. You know the other thing is, is that the gospel coalition is uniquely positioned to gather like minded believers. And I think not just like, Okay, we know that we’re one in Christ, but there’s something about being in a room with 9000 other followers of Jesus and singing and receiving God’s word again, it should never replace the weekly gathering of God’s people. But to see people from all over the country, a reunion, if you will, of sorts, and a rekindling of sort of the big picture vision of what the body of Christ is all about. People need to not only know that, theoretically, they need to feel it experientially. And there’s nothing like a national conference. And then also regional, you know, gatherings around the country, of regional chapters of TGC to help people taste and see of the unity of the Body of Christ. How

Ligon Duncan
would you summarize TGC future vision and mission and calling.

Mark Vroegop
Yeah, I think that TGC has, you know, been around for 20 years, and there’s something special that God has done in the context of the story of the gospel coalition, and the idea of renewing and unifying the contemporary church in the ancient gospel man that’s as relevant as it was 20 years ago. It’s it’s as relevant as it is today. And I think moving forward, TGC has to figure out, how do we do that for the next 20 years? What does that look like? How do we take the God given resources, the multitude of voices that are are part of our publishing team, and how do we keep applying the gospel into the most important issues in life? And then how do we do even better, as it relates to gathering people together and connecting them relationally? We live in a lonely culture. We live in it’s lonely even within an evangelicalism, hard sometimes to know who your real friends are. And I think the gospel coalition can help bring people together, introduce and create new relationships, and also attack new tackle new challenges together, because we have some of the best and brightest people in the country who are a part of the orbit or the network, if you will, of TGC. And I think there’s a number of unique opportunities that the Lord is going to send our way for the gospel coalition continue to be faithful in the next generation.