Fighting Materialism in a Materialistic World

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0:00:00 – (Jen Oshman): We seek to fill that eternal hole with temporary things, and it just can never be filled to the brim. And so we seek more and seek more, and our souls are like, it’s just not enough. It doesn’t feel right. I need a little bit more. The bottom line is we set our sights on the temporary rather than really keeping our vision at the eternal.

0:00:28 – (Courtney Doctor): Welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition where we love having deep conversations about deep truths. I’m Courtney Docter, and I’m here with my friend and co host, Melissa Krueger. And we are joined today by our very good friend, Jen Oshman. I know most of you will know this, but Jen is a writer, a pastor’s wife. She is a former overseas missionary. She is the mother to four daughters, the grandmother to one granddaughter, and the latest, the youngest is a grandson. So the first boy in the mix. Jen, thanks for joining us today.

0:01:02 – (Jen Oshman): Oh, thank you, Courtney. It’s so sweet to be with you guys.

0:01:05 – (Melissa Kruger): And I’m so excited about this conversation. Today we’re going to be talking about materialism. I think I’m excited, actually.

0:01:12 – (Courtney Doctor): I was going to say, are you? I’m kind of scared.

0:01:15 – (Melissa Kruger): Yeah, exactly. I know. I’m like, oh, is this going to be convicting? It might be convicting, and maybe I need to be convicted. So we’re going to talk about materialism, which is kind of just a preoccupation or an overly stressing of material things of this world, which I think we all do. Look, we live in a world where we see a lot. I mean, we maybe see more than any other generation’s ever seen. I mean, if you scroll down Instagram lane just a little bit, you’re like, oh, I need this.

0:01:41 – (Melissa Kruger): Oh, I didn’t even know that existed. And now I need it. You know, I mean, this is the world we live in. One thing that I think sometimes we assume is that it’s easy to think of materialism as only something that, like, shallow people struggle with. Not us. I mean, we’re not shallow. We’re the deep, dim. Ish.

0:01:57 – (Jen Oshman): We’re deep.

0:01:57 – (Melissa Kruger): Right? So we don’t struggle with these things. But, you know, I think we all do at some level. I mean, every one of us can put our hope in the things of this world, can think, wow, life would just be so much easier if I had X, Y, or Z. As we think about this topic of materialism, what does this struggle look like in your own heart?

0:02:17 – (Jen Oshman): You know, I think the question is really difficult because none of us thinks that we’re materialistic. I mean, it’s just kind of a given our, our reflexes. I don’t struggle with that. I’m not greedy, I’m not envious, I’m not covetous. You know, that’s, that’s other people. We don’t. It’s just not our first reflex to think that we have this sin issue in our lives. So I think it takes a minute and maybe some prayer, some self reflection, just some real humility, begging the Lord for some humility to ask this question of ourselves and give ourselves the time to respond with truth and ask the Lord for grace and that. So even, even myself, as I have studied this topic, deeply taught on it many times as I was preparing for this conversation over the last 24 hours, truly to myself, I’m saying I don’t. It’s not really an issue in my life.

0:03:05 – (Jen Oshman): And I knew I just had to kind of laugh because you’re like, jen, that’s not true. It is an issue in your life. So slow down, stop the frenetic pace of the busyness of this day, the scrolling, the consuming, the things that don’t allow me to think deeply and really ask this question and what I found I didn’t love. I feel like I found a shallow dish answer and a deep dish answer. And the shallow dish answer is I, I’m just attracted to newer, better, shinier, prettier, and they’re fun and make my life maybe more convenient and I just enjoy new things and they also maybe just make me feel better about myself to have them. That’s kind of the shallow answer, the deeper answer, which I’ve kind of had to struggle with actually over the last day just to be really honest and pray about and ask the Lord, like, what is the rootedness behind this is that I feel a sense of shame when I don’t have or appear like other people when I don’t have what they have, or when I don’t appear as capable or as smart or as, as wealthy, you know, just if I don’t have the material things that I can point to that are maybe on my person or in my home or on my social media, you know, accounts, I feel ashamed.

0:04:37 – (Jen Oshman): And I think what is behind that is a sense of identity that there’s like worth wrapped up in stuff and appearance. And I have at a very deep level, subconscious, even bought the lie that my worth is equal to what I possess or what I can show other people.

0:04:57 – (Courtney Doctor): That’s so good, Jen.

0:04:59 – (Jen Oshman): That is so painful.

0:05:00 – (Courtney Doctor): It’s because it’s there. And even when you were saying social media, you’re like, yeah, the number of followers or the number of likes, like, all those things that we can see. I mean, that’s materialism at some covetousness, for sure. Right? At some level. And I think I liked how you said the deep dish and the shallow dish when you said that. I was like, ooh, deep dish and thin crust. I’ve got that answer too. Like the deep dish answer. For me, as I thought about this, sort of the same thing, like asking the Lord to reveal my heart is. It’s future. It’s savings for future, like future security, future financial.

0:05:37 – (Courtney Doctor): So. So that is a place that I can say, man, I really want to put my security in savings or, you know, or in like. And it’s. The savings is there for the purpose of security. And it’s not just security. It’s not just that I will have enough. It’s that I will have enough to maintain everything you’re talking about or to get and to, you know, to have all of those things. And so, I mean, it’s enough to have fun.

0:06:06 – (Courtney Doctor): Exactly.

0:06:07 – (Jen Oshman): Excellent.

0:06:07 – (Courtney Doctor): Exactly.

0:06:08 – (Melissa Kruger): I hear that. And I was like, oh, yeah, no, no, I want to know.

0:06:13 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah, am I wondering, am I going to have enough to be generous? No, that’s not my question. It’s, is it enough for me? And then I think the shallow or thin crust answer is, I see it on my Amazon, just how quickly, you know, how quickly I’m like, oh, that’s a great idea. I should have one of those. Do I really need it? Nah, probably not, but. Well, we’ve already kind of alluded to this, but we talked recently with Jackie about the topic of covetousness.

0:06:39 – (Courtney Doctor): And so where’s the intersection? How. How is covetousness similar or dissimilar to materialism? Where’s the overlap between those two things?

0:06:50 – (Jen Oshman): Yeah, I mean, you’re right. We have kind of alluded to it. And I think in our context, they are really hard to pull apart because as Melissa said, we are seeing everybody else’s stuff. People who live on the other side of the globe, people I haven’t seen for decades. I see their material things, and that leads often to covetousness. So they’re very in. In our age, they’re very closely related. But I think, you know, covetous obviously speaks to envy and just wanting the life that God gave somebody else and being discontent with the life that he gave us, while materialism and just a bent towards material things is putting Our identity, our hope, our trust in the things that we have.

0:07:35 – (Jen Oshman): So they are distinct, but they do often overlap.

0:07:38 – (Courtney Doctor): So maybe what we covet ends up revealing materialism.

0:07:43 – (Jen Oshman): That’s a really good point. I think you’re right.

0:07:45 – (Melissa Kruger): And I like to think of covetousness as like, that big umbrella. So you might covet if you’re especially like, I think about you, Jen, being overseas for so many years. Like, you may covet, oh, being home for Christmas, which is different than materialism, that, you know, it can even be wrapped up in good things like family or whatever. But that’s different than being like, no, I covet having my china or that china on. You know, that’s more the materialism.

0:08:13 – (Melissa Kruger): And so I almost think of it as a subset. It’s just one more thing under the big umbrella. Like, I think of all of the Ten Commandments as kind of umbrella sins that have a lot under them, you know, so adultery, you know, there’s a lot more there than just adultery, you know, in these. And. And I think when it comes to this, I do love thinking about Hebrews 13:15, because it is actually this call to be content.

0:08:39 – (Melissa Kruger): But it says, keep your life free from the love of money and be content with what you have. For he has said, I will never leave you nor forsake you. I think it’s really interesting in this that the answer is not, I’m going to provide. Yeah, well, it is in some ways, I guess, but it’s not provide you with material things. He’s going to provide you with his presence, not the possessions you think you need.

0:09:10 – (Melissa Kruger): And so how do you look at this promise and how is it a promise and how does it actually help us battle materialism?

0:09:17 – (Jen Oshman): Oh, yeah, you’re getting right to the heart of the matter. I think. I think we should say clearly that coveting and materialism, all these areas where our hearts are prone to wander, are usually towards really good things. We tend to covet or desire things that are good gifts. So, you know, I want nice clothes or I want a nice home, or I want a nice life, a nice vacation, beauty around me. Those things are not bad in and of themselves. You know, our God is the creator of beauty. He is an artist.

0:09:51 – (Jen Oshman): He delights in how he made us to be creative. And he made us to cultivate creation and to subdue it and to make beautiful things and to work the garden and to keep it. You know, he made us in his image. So these things that we desire, we come by them honestly because they are from the Lord. And they’re part of being made in his image. Further, they point to our next life, to life in the new heavens and the new earth. We were made to desire a safe, permanent, beautiful home.

0:10:25 – (Jen Oshman): We were made to desire these good, deep gifts that God offers us in this lifetime, which is good but temporary. We seek to fill that eternal hole with temporary things, and it just can never be filled to the brim. And so we seek more and seek more, and our souls are like, it’s just not enough. It doesn’t feel right. I need a little bit more. And so I think the bottom line is we set our sights on the temporary rather than really keeping our vision at the eternal.

0:11:00 – (Jen Oshman): So that. That’s a kind of a big answer. We can unpack more. But I do think that’s kind of at the crux of the matter.

0:11:06 – (Courtney Doctor): I love that. I think it’s kind of at the crux of the parable of the prodigal son, too. It’s the older brother, right? Like, it’s all the all. And how does the Father end up answering the Son? He ends up saying, you know, everything. What does he say, son? He said to him, you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. So it’s kind of that, like, I’m here, and everything that you need, like, I will provide.

0:11:30 – (Courtney Doctor): But I was also thinking, you know, there’s the. Jesus told this parable of the rich fool. And I thought it was really interesting because Jesus said in it, he said, watch out and be on guard against all greed because. Because one’s life is not in the abundance of his possessions. And then he tells this parable of this man who.

0:11:48 – (Jen Oshman): Who’s.

0:11:48 – (Courtney Doctor): Who’s just living an abundant, materially abundant life. His crops are producing more than he can imagine. And here’s the question. He asks, what should I do? Meaning, what should I do with this abundance of resources, of wealth, of material wealth? What should I do? And then he says, since I don’t have anywhere to store my crops. And so his answer is. His answer is just, how should I store them? How should I keep hoarding them more and more, when the answer to what should I do?

0:12:17 – (Courtney Doctor): Would have been be generous. But then he says, I’ll say to myself, you have many goods stored up for many years. And I think that. That, like, I was, you know, just telling you, like, that’s kind of this. This temptation that I feel is like, to store up many goods for many years. But then it reveals why, and it says, so that he could take it easy, eat, drink, and Enjoy himself. And, and this is when Jesus comes in with the lesson and he says, that’s how it is. So the, the man dies that night, he does not get to enjoy this abundance. And, and the point is like, that was not what he was supposed to do with all of that.

0:12:53 – (Courtney Doctor): And then he says, well, that’s how it is with the one who stores up treasure for himself and is not rich towards God. But then if we go on to the very next verse, it looks like a whole new story in the Bible because it has a heading. But he said, then he said to his disciples, therefore, I tell you, don’t worry about what you’re, about your life, what you will eat, or about your body, what you will wear.

0:13:15 – (Courtney Doctor): And so there’s this antidote to this temptation in all of us to store up. But I think if we, if we have been blessed with abundance, then the question, what should I do? Is a really good question to ask that I think the Bible does give us clear answers to.

0:13:37 – (Jen Oshman): Yeah, definitely. You know, that parable is so fascinating because Jesus calls the man a fool for storing up his wealth and for just hoarding it. That’s the, that’s the foolish thing, is that he, this man has put his hope in his extra. He has, he’s, he’s relying on what he has produced himself. And it’s all very self focused. And the Lord says that’s what’s foolish. The foolishness is not actually being wealthy.

0:14:06 – (Jen Oshman): Because we see plenty of examples throughout Scripture of those who are wealthy and are not condemned for being wealthy. Wealthy is not the problem. But the man’s foolish because as you said, Courtney, he puts all of his hope in what he has hoarded. And the Lord is like, you’re, you’ll die. And then what? That this is not actually the sum of your life. This is not actually going to save you. You have put your hope in the wrong thing.

0:14:31 – (Melissa Kruger): Do you remember at the end of Schindler’s List, it was the scene, I don’t know if you all remember this, where he’s pulling out things from his pockets like a pen, and he’s like, this could have saved one more. Yes, this poignant scene of I have all this stuff and, and he realizes the immensity of people were saved, you know, and he realized, oh, I could have used this stuff.

0:15:01 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah.

0:15:01 – (Melissa Kruger): To save more. And I always think about that when I read Matthew 6, 6:19 through 21. And here’s what it says. Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth where moth and rust destroy. And where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

0:15:26 – (Melissa Kruger): And I think about that a lot, because it’s not. Again, we. We’ve said possessions aren’t bad in and of themselves, but they’re to be used. They’re, you know, they’re. They’re to be stewarded in some ways. And so in some ways, you know, it could be. Yeah. Hey, this crock pot, it helps me serve tons of people in my home for Bible study. That’s a great way. Way to use it. But it’s the question of every.

0:15:52 – (Melissa Kruger): Every purchase is a choice in some sense. Like, could it be used for something better? Could, you know, could it be used to store up treasure in heaven? So can we talk about that for a minute? What does it even mean to use what we’ve been given to store up treasure in heaven where things don’t rust? Because, you know, look, we’ve all. Every. Every one of us has seen Christmas Morning where, hey, that toy was so fun for about five minutes, and now it’s done. Well, maybe our toys last a year, maybe they last a little longer, but in light of eternity, it’s five minutes.

0:16:30 – (Melissa Kruger): So what. What does it actually mean to store up treasure in heaven with our stuff?

0:16:35 – (Jen Oshman): Yeah, I mean, I think it. It’s a. It’s a daily discipline, and it’s something I think we need to cultivate, you know, by being intentional about the word of God, asking the spirit of God to help us, but also inviting the people of God in our lives to hold us accountable to it, to spur us on toward it, to give each other examples of what that might look like. Because this is not the direction of our flesh or our culture. And so it’s going to be this minute by minute seeking of God’s help to practice this discipline. But I think what it looks like is what we’ve been given is not wrong. I mean, we did not choose to be born into the wealthiest time and place in history. Right? We have the access to more than kings of old.

0:17:17 – (Jen Oshman): We have. We have such luxury and safety and health and convenience. And the Lord ordained that this is when we would be born. So how then will we steward it, as you said, Melissa, So these things aren’t wrong to have, but they cannot become our, Our false gods. They can’t become, you know, where we go to for hope and identity and security and joy. They are means. They are. They Are God’s the resources that God has given us that we might love God and love others? You know, those are the two greatest commandments that we all must obey. Love him and love others.

0:17:48 – (Jen Oshman): We’ve been given the Great Commission to go. I mean we, we know what we’re meant to be doing as believers. It’s very clear in the New Testament. So how then might we use these resources to point us to the Lord? To point others to the Lord? And not that every coffee date has to be a holy worshipful moment, I don’t mean that by any means, but how can we do those one another’s in Scripture? How can we practice hospitality, rejoice with those who rejoice, mourn with those who mourn? How can we be intentional that that which we purchase or that which we practice doesn’t end here?

0:18:23 – (Jen Oshman): It’s not for just a temporal feel good, high, self care high, that’s going to wane, but it’s something that points our own hearts and those that we’re around to something beyond to the Lord.

0:18:35 – (Courtney Doctor): I love that. And I think that, you know, what you’re like really addressing is this idea of kind of this, the foolish rich man in, in Luke 12, I had to go back and look at it in Luke 12 where he’s like, I have an abundance. So the Lord provided that, right? There’s nothing wrong with an abundance. His question is what should I do with it? And then what we see is his answer is, I’m going to do, I’m going to store it up for me, for my pleasure, for my good. And that’s obviously where the foolishness comes.

0:19:05 – (Courtney Doctor): And so you’re right, wealth is not a problem in and of itself. But let me ask you this, Is materialism only a problem for the wealthy? Is it only a problem for those that, that have abundance? Or can the frugal and those that struggle financially. Can materialism be a problem for us in that situation too?

0:19:29 – (Jen Oshman): I think it can be a problem for every human, no matter our context, because no matter what we have, we can always definitely want more and we can always misplace our hope. I mean, I think one of the very sad realities of the last few decades of what we’ve seen in the global church is a spread of the health and wealth gospel in some places that are very poor. And that what I mean by that is that false teachers have sprung up in places where they suffer terrible poverty and they have a lack of health care and a lack of access to things.

0:20:03 – (Jen Oshman): And they’ve been taught you know, believe this specific gospel, believe in God, and he’ll make you rich. You know, and that is. That’s not true, but it just shows the propensity for anybody in any context to go, yeah, I want more. I just want. I want more. And that’s. It’s good to have more. So I think whether you’re rich or poor, this is a struggle. I think it’s especially probably dangerous for those who are wealthy because we put our hope in it without a second thought.

0:20:31 – (Jen Oshman): And those who don’t have that, those guardrails and that ample security available to them might be more likely to cry out to God. I think that’s like a proverbial generalization, but this is something anybody can stumble over.

0:20:48 – (Melissa Kruger): Yeah, I think that’s one of the biggest things is, what do we trust? And, like, oh, well, I can just. Oh, that breaks down. Oh, I’ll just get a new one. I can order it really quickly. And in our wealthy culture, I think it promotes isolation from others. You know, I don’t need to share with my neighbor anything. If I actually see that my neighbor has something I want, I just go get it. Rather than, like, can I borrow yours?

0:21:14 – (Melissa Kruger): You know, or, like, communal living, which is what you would have done in the past, maybe, is say, oh, let’s all share this resource together. And instead, you know, the more material goods we have, almost the more isolated we become in some ways. Okay, so I’m already feeling convicted by this conversation, and I’m like, oh, I need to give everything away and do all these things. How. How do we discern whether this is a problem in our lives? Like, a real problem?

0:21:44 – (Jen Oshman): Like how?

0:21:44 – (Melissa Kruger): You know, I think it’s. It’s easy to say in our minds, no, it’s not a problem for me. It’s a problem for her. You know, Like, I can totally see how Courtney is struggling with.

0:21:55 – (Jen Oshman): No, I can’t.

0:21:57 – (Melissa Kruger): I’m literally thinking, Courtney’s so good at getting rid of things. I’m terrible at getting rid of things.

0:22:02 – (Courtney Doctor): Just because I’m not a hoarder doesn’t mean I’m not materialistic.

0:22:06 – (Melissa Kruger): But.

0:22:06 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah.

0:22:06 – (Melissa Kruger): So what are the signs, then? Because I’m. I’m watching my daughter, you know, she’s getting ready to move overseas. They just got rid of everything. She gave her couch to people. All these. You know, they had just gotten married recently, and they’re giving all this stuff away, and I’m like, oh, what are you doing? But it’s. I also see such freedom in it, you know, so how how do we recognize this in our own hearts? Because again, I think it’s always easy to recognize it in the person who has a little, just a little bit more than you.

0:22:35 – (Melissa Kruger): They’re clearly materialistic. But how do we, how do we know if it’s simmering in our own hearts?

0:22:41 – (Courtney Doctor): Well, and I think even just what you were saying, like, we’ve kind of talked about this idea that, yes, I think that this is a distinct type of temptation for those who have abundance of wealth and of possessions, and it manifests itself in a very certain way. But I also think for the uber frugal person that does want to like that, the question there needs to be, what am I? Because frugal can also.

0:23:09 – (Courtney Doctor): It’s, it’s the flip side of that is stingy, right? And not generous. And so, so the overly frugal person, the person who really prides herself on her frugality, I think that’s a form, that’s a, that’s a version and a flavor of materialism. And then I think for the person who really lacks, who lacks material, financial provision that spends money in ways to gain things that they really don’t have the money for. I mean, this unbelievable credit card debt that just surrounds us everywhere is definitely a sign and symptom of materialism at some level. Now, do emergencies come up? Are there reasons people get into, into credit card debt? Absolutely. But the, the vast majority of credit card debt is the attempt to grab at. I just, I know I don’t have the money for it, but I’m going to buy it anyway because it is going to provide something for me. It’s going to provide identity or it’s going to provide safety or it’s going to provide happiness, whatever it is. And so I think that like this idea is, is for all of us. So we all struggle, I would say, with materialism in some way, shape or form. Like you said, Jen, in very impoverished parts of the world, the fact that the health and wealth gospel is taking off so rapidly really indicates the desire. Like if, because that becomes the God, right? If I promise you that you’re going to be healthy and wealthy and that’s what you’re worshiping God for. Well, really your God is your health and your wealth.

0:24:41 – (Courtney Doctor): And so I think that for all of us, no matter if we are impoverished, if we’re on the poverty line, if we’re really frugal, if we’re not a hoarder, if we have abundance, I think the question has to be where is generosity in my life? And what does generosity look like? No matter what my abundance looks like or lack thereof, is generosity a part of my life? Because I think that’s the anecdote to materialism.

0:25:12 – (Jen Oshman): I think that is so good. And I think what you’re getting at with generosity is sacrificing myself. Can I pursue some inconvenience and some lack so that I might bless God and bless others? And a part of this conversation that I don’t want to have or think about, but I, that keeps sort of like tapping me on the shoulder is that Jesus says our growth and our Christ likeness is going to come through suffering.

0:25:42 – (Jen Oshman): I mean, that is a theme throughout the New Testament. Take up your cross and follow me. I came to serve and not be served. His kingdom is upside down. And so we, we who say we want to follow him, then have to pursue suffering in some way and not, not for suffering sake, not to be like I now I put my hope and my identity and my trust, and I’ve suffered so much, therefore I’ll be saved. It’s not, that’s not the end.

0:26:08 – (Jen Oshman): But what if we went without? What if we pursue generosity and chose some inconvenience, even chose to go without or even chose some suffering so that we could be like Christ and not in a means of earning anything from him, but identifying with him in his suffering and saying and practicing Jesus is better. Jesus is better than me having X, Y, or Z. And I’m going to put that to the test by not purchasing it or not doing it and seeking him and finding him to satisfy me in a way that the material goods cannot.

0:26:53 – (Jen Oshman): Yeah.

0:26:53 – (Melissa Kruger): When you’re saying all that, I was thinking as you were talking about just the weight of responsibility that has been given to us. You know, he’s been given much. Much is required. But particularly if I viewed myself as a steward rather than an owner. Like, because here’s the thing what gets in my brain is I work hard, I deserve it. Like, that’s the sin in my heart. Like, I have earned this money. I would never say I’ve earned grace.

0:27:26 – (Melissa Kruger): You know, I, I’ve got that pretty clearly down that I’m desperately needy. But what if we actually viewed our salaries as God’s provision in our life and his gift to us, not something we earn too. Like, this is this, is this. I think my brain doesn’t want to even hear me say this. But, like, what if, you know, I said, okay, this you gave me, now how do I steward it? Well, rather than, it’s my right, so I’ll save some, I’ll spend some, I’ll give some, you know, whatever. You know, these things.

0:28:01 – (Melissa Kruger): Well, what does radical generosity look like? Not. Not just, you know what, I’m checking a box, so I feel kind of good about myself and pat myself on the back. But what would it look like if the American church, collectively, but even individually, if we started doing this, how would the world look different? And how would our souls look different? These are big questions because I think we’re actually thinking it’s going to be this death to self where we know any death to self always produces life.

0:28:34 – (Melissa Kruger): Yeah. I mean, so this is, you know, and I want to get to this in the next part of our conversation, but before we do, I’m gonna leave you with that. Like, we’re gonna get to something bigger and something better. Let’s hear a word from our sponsors who are helping us have this conversation.

0:28:50 – (Courtney Doctor): Well, welcome back, Melissa. I was just thinking about what you were saying before we took that break. And I used to get so irritated with my husband for the way he phrases something over. And he still does it, but I’ve learned how. How helpful it is. But he always says, like, this is the house that the Lord’s letting us live in, or this is the car that the Lord is letting us drive. And. And I used to just be like, okay, I got it. You know, like, whatever it is, this is the vacation the Lord is letting us have.

0:29:18 – (Courtney Doctor): But it’s so helpful to do exactly what you’re just saying is to even just say those things to ourselves and to others just as a reminder of, like, this all belongs. This all belongs to him. Well, I want to ask a question about friendships, because in this. So we’ve kind of said materialism is in all of us, at least the big umbrella of covetousness, for sure, is in all of us. And materialism in one form or fashion, I think, is. Back to your points, Jen. Like, this is part of the culture in which God ordained that we live and move and have our being.

0:29:56 – (Courtney Doctor): But what effect do friendships have on either the increase of materialism in our own hearts and minds or the battle against that materialism?

0:30:06 – (Jen Oshman): Yeah, I think friendships are huge because we are communal people made in God’s image. We. We need community. We’re made for community. And so friendships, the people of God have to play a role here. And I think it’s so interesting, especially in the American church, how taboo finances are. I mean, our Bible studies and our pastors can preach about so many things that are uncomfortable and awkward but when they start to talk about money, it. This is, like, the one. I think this is one area where we’re freaking out. I mean, everybody is suddenly totally uncomfortable, totally nervous. The pastor’s making nervous jokes from up front. You know, he’s like, I’ve got to go here.

0:30:50 – (Jen Oshman): It’s. It’s just so taboo. How many people know what your income is, what you give, what you save? Like, who’s looking at your spreadsheet? Who’s looking at your accounts? I think it is key that we invite our brothers and sisters into that conversation, because nothing good happens in the dark. Nothing good grows in secret. And so what if we invited other believers that we trust? And I’m not saying, you know, everybody needs to put it up on a PowerPoint in front of their Sunday morning worship, but, like, a couple friends. Hey, come see.

0:31:28 – (Courtney Doctor): So good, Jen.

0:31:29 – (Jen Oshman): It’s so hard. It’s so.

0:31:31 – (Courtney Doctor): Well, even as you’re talking, and I’m like, okay, what is my. Why am. Why is my heart resistant to that?

0:31:35 – (Jen Oshman): I know.

0:31:36 – (Courtney Doctor): You know, and it’s like, wow, that is. I had a friend that was very open about her giving, and I just at first remember thinking, do not let your right hand know what your left hand is doing. Like, you should not be talking about that. But it was so helpful. Like, it was just so she. She was not doing it in a braggadocious way, but it was. It was. It compelled me towards more financial generosity because I was like, oh, that’s a great example. And we do that in other things, right?

0:32:04 – (Jen Oshman): We do it in everything. I go to the gym with friends because I want to work out harder. So I should probably go to my bank with my friends so I can give harder. Like, we ha. We need other people to spur us on in this.

0:32:14 – (Melissa Kruger): Just yesterday, I was thinking about a woman. She’s now with the Lord, and she and her husband made a really conscious decision that they were going to live on a certain amount. And I don’t know what the amount was. I’m sure, you know, they were doing fine or whatever, and I’m sure it went up. Cost of living increases, I’m sure were in there. They were very financially astute and aware, and after that, they would just give everything away.

0:32:42 – (Melissa Kruger): So they made this decision, and every year they just. When his job would increase and he made a. You know, he did very well, they just gave more away. So rather than get the new this, the new that, the new whatever, which is what we’re all tempted to do. Oh, now I have this. Let’s add this on. Let’s do this. Let’s put it. They just chose to give it away. And what I will say is, even yesterday, I mean, she’s been with the Lord now. I can’t remember even how many years ago she died.

0:33:10 – (Melissa Kruger): I’m still thinking about it. You know, they were an older couple in the church, and they would teach on financial. They would do crown, you know, stuff. They would teach a lot of financial resources things and. But learning from the generosity of others and really being a witness in that of, oh, wow, my life is not the sum of my possessions. But maybe, maybe I want to be known as the giveaway biggest giver rather than the one who had the right curtains hanging in my living room.

0:33:44 – (Jen Oshman): Yeah.

0:33:45 – (Melissa Kruger): I mean, honestly, like, but, oh, no. And I don’t know where they were giving. Do you know? Like, I just know they were choosing. They chose a lifestyle. That was the lifestyle they chose.

0:33:57 – (Courtney Doctor): I love that. I’m. I’m still kind of stuck on Jen’s thought of, like, inviting people in. So I just, like, I just made the decision and purchased a new car because my other car was paid off. We had decided to do payments, and so I did that. And then I was like, well, I can just. Just start, you know, I won’t. It won’t be any different if I get a new car and just kind of continue the payments. And I’m like, what if I had invited somebody in and kind of laid out our financials and say, Melissa said, you know, Courtney, what if you deferred that for a year and those payments went towards something else and then you got the new car?

0:34:37 – (Courtney Doctor): You know, like, that is just so. I mean, I’m just like, I’m still kind of reeling through all the ramifications of what that could actually mean to be having conversations about how we can be more generous in the context of actually knowing each other and, like, saying this is something you could do and, like, speaking into that because, like, Melissa and I, I mean, like, we’ll talk about, like you said, how we go to the gym or what we want to lose or what we want to, you know, or the new clothes.

0:35:04 – (Jen Oshman): We’re going to.

0:35:04 – (Courtney Doctor): Like, we talk about those things, but are we having those kind of conversations on, like, how could. Where are. Help me see. Help me look at this and see places that I could be generous. That’s really.

0:35:18 – (Melissa Kruger): Wow.

0:35:19 – (Jen Oshman): Yeah. I don’t, like, I shouldn’t have brought.

0:35:22 – (Melissa Kruger): It up.

0:35:25 – (Jen Oshman): But here.

0:35:25 – (Melissa Kruger): Here’s like, everything, though. We always want the other line. Yeah, the line to be how it’s kind of like when you’re dating, you didn’t want the line to be, how.

0:35:33 – (Jen Oshman): Much can I get away with?

0:35:34 – (Melissa Kruger): How pure can we be?

0:35:36 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:35:37 – (Melissa Kruger): That it was, what can we go up to? And it be, okay, so this gets into everything, right? Like, so all these issues on what’s it okay to spend money on, like whether it’s a facial cream or Botox, you know, whatever it might be. I said the B word, I’m going.

0:35:53 – (Jen Oshman): To get in trouble. We’re not allowed to talk about Botox.

0:35:57 – (Melissa Kruger): But like all, you know, when you, when you, but it’s different to say, well, could that money be used for something else? Which is really nitty gritty in my soul. And it’s like, oh, let’s not stop confronting me with the Holy One of Israel. Like, don’t, don’t get in my business. You know, Whereas we need people to get in our business.

0:36:17 – (Jen Oshman): Yeah, we do. And, and here’s the thing for those who are listening and just to remind us, like, the, the point isn’t guilt and self loathing and the point isn’t feeling bad and making up for it. Like, well, we’re, you know, globally speaking, we’re pretty rich. So how are we going to sort of pay penance for that? That. That is not the point. I love Jesus’s heart after the, the parable of the rich fool.

0:36:42 – (Jen Oshman): Jesus is so tender. And he says, don’t worry, My Father knows what you need before you even ask him. He. He calls him. He calls the people listening, his little flock. And it’s like the most compassionate language. And so what I want us to remember is our feeling of insecurity. And I need to protect myself. I need to hoard my stuff. I’ve got to plan for the future because my life is fragile. The Lord sees that and he looks on us with compassion and says, my Father’s going to provide for you.

0:37:15 – (Jen Oshman): But here’s what’s wisdom. Wisdom is storing up treasure in heaven. It is foolish for you to store it here and now. And so Christ’s heart in this is that we would not settle for the lesser gifts, the lesser life, the temporary. He’s like, no, go harder. Go further. Go beyond the here and now. And we need the word of God, the Spirit of God and the people of God to help us do that. And I think, you know, in our, in our American context, where our faith is not just personal, but it tends to be very private, we really short circuit ourselves here. We really cut ourselves off from actual joy and growth and sanctification and freedom from materialism by not inviting our siblings in to really provoke us and to spur us towards us a way of life that is living for heaven rather than for earth.

0:38:11 – (Melissa Kruger): I think that’s so good because. And I want us to talk a little bit about, like, how does heavenly mindedness change and totally transform this whole conversation? Because one, one analogy, and it was really helpful for me. You’ve lived overseas. Jen, too. I lived overseas when my husband was doing his PhD work. And it was so great to live in a rented house because you just, you learn a lot about what you don’t need.

0:38:39 – (Melissa Kruger): You know, we, I, I moved to Scotland with four suitcases and I, I remember thinking, I always know now I can live with four suitcases and I could live with less even. But it was, it was really helpful. And one image that would come to mind a lot is the belief that this world’s an airport and my home is heaven. And if I would view this world like that, I would laugh a little bit more about my possessions and think about them very differently. Because if we saw someone in an airport unpacking in the middle of the airport, their cappuccino maker, and saying, no, no, no, I’m gonna, I’m gonna, I’m gonna make everything feel like home. And I’ve got my bed here and my other suitcase. I’m gonna pull that out in a minute. We’d be like, what are you doing?

0:39:26 – (Melissa Kruger): You’re in the airport, you’re trying. That’s where you have your little cappuccino maker and your nice bed and all that stuff. You know, we would laugh together and we’d be like, that’s foolish to bring all this stuff with you and care so much about it. In the airport, there’s a whole place prepared for you where you’re going to feel wonderful, you know, about being actually home. And I think though it’s our longing, our deep longing for home that makes us think we can make these homes, our homes.

0:39:57 – (Melissa Kruger): So how, how can we fix our eyes on heavenly things so it would remind us not that these are unimportant places. We know that it’s a little microcosm of, of, of what’s coming, that’s. It’s a shadow. But how do we focus on the reality while we’re living in the shadowlands?

0:40:16 – (Jen Oshman): That’s so good. And I’m glad that you, you know, reminded us to say out loud that this life does matter and this place does matter. You know, the we’re we’re embodied souls and all of this does matter, and it’s good to cultivate. That’s our calling. I think one question that has been helpful for me in playing this out in my life has been just repeating to myself, what does it look like for me to love my neighbor as myself?

0:40:40 – (Jen Oshman): If that’s what I want, how do I love my neighbor with that? You know, how can I extend that same desire to them? And so that’s been very helpful in terms of giving to different places or different causes or suffering or the church, whatever. But I think if we view others and say they deserve what I think I deserve, that can be very, very helpful. You know, we. We are given those commands to love God and love others. So we’ve got to ask, how can I do that with, with the finances that I have right now? What would it look like to show God I love him and other people?

0:41:16 – (Jen Oshman): I love these other people, these image bearers as well. How can I show love by leveraging all that I have for them?

0:41:23 – (Courtney Doctor): I love that. Asking the question or thinking the thought that other people deserve what I deserve. That kind of gets back to how, Melissa, you were talking about the way you view, like, I deserve this, I’ve earned it, but thinking somebody else deserves it as much as I do, That’s a really, that’s a, that’s a really healthy balance of holding all kind of everything we’ve talked about, intention, that’s. I just find that really helpful. But I also think, like the idea of having a.

0:41:50 – (Courtney Doctor): A more robust understanding and knowledge of what is to come. I think most of us have such an anemic view of heaven and the new heavens and the new earth and what’s to come in the next life and the surety of it, like the, the concreteness of it and so increasing your knowledge base so that you can long for this things so that you know what it’s like. I mean, I. Randy Alcorn’s book on heaven has got to be just life changing, like life changing, right?

0:42:25 – (Courtney Doctor): And there have been some. He has a truncated version if you look at it, and it’s just too big. And there have been some others that have come out recently that really take his work and we can put some of those in the show notes. But it’s, it’s so helpful to get excited about the beauty and the abundance and the glory of the life to come. And I do think that’s what helps untether us. Like you were saying, Melissa, it helps us realize, oh, this is just the airport where I’m going is glorious and I can hardly wait to get there.

0:42:59 – (Melissa Kruger): And if our resources can be used by the Lord to help more people get there.

0:43:04 – (Jen Oshman): Yeah, absolutely.

0:43:05 – (Melissa Kruger): You know what I’m saying? Like, what an honor to get to be a part of that. That’s what invites us to use our resources to be a part of furnishing heaven. It’s all him, but he allows us to play a role in that. And what a thing that we actually are allowed to store up treasure in heaven.

0:43:25 – (Jen Oshman): So.

0:43:25 – (Melissa Kruger): Good, because it’s all his. But he somehow lets us use what’s happening in this life to build things that will last.

0:43:34 – (Jen Oshman): Yeah.

0:43:35 – (Melissa Kruger): You know, whereas. Yeah.

0:43:37 – (Jen Oshman): Yeah.

0:43:37 – (Courtney Doctor): He does not treat us as our sins deserve.

0:43:40 – (Jen Oshman): Amen.

0:43:41 – (Courtney Doctor): Grateful. Well, Jen, thank you so much for joining us us on the Deep Dish and talking about these things. I know Melissa and I both are saying, wow, truly convinced. Like, it’s not. We’re not just saying that. Like, there’s been some conviction. There’s been. I’ve had a shift in the way that I think about some of these things, and I’m going to, once we get off of this episode, I’m going to actually write some of them down and keep them in my Bible to pray about them because I don’t want this to just be like, oh, that was kind of convicting. And then. And then move on.

0:44:09 – (Courtney Doctor): So thank you for bringing your wisdom and your thoughtfulness to this conversation. So our last question for you today is what is something that is not material that you love or that enriches your life?

0:44:21 – (Jen Oshman): Yes. Well, I think this actually probably points towards heaven as well. One of my favorite things to do is to sit on my back patio around the fire pit with the twinkle lights on and with my family, with my friend, with whoever, you know, just a sweet, slow. I tend to, you know, go hard. And so when I slow down and just enjoy the beauty of the Colorado outdoors and the beauty of the people, maybe the beauty of some yummy food around that fire pit.

0:44:51 – (Jen Oshman): I don’t know why I don’t do that more often. It’s such a good gift.

0:44:55 – (Courtney Doctor): That’s beautiful. Melissa and I definitely can both resonate with that. We really, really enjoy the same thing. Well, friends, we hope that you have enjoyed this episode of the Deep Dish from the Gospel Coalition. If you have found it helpful, please share it. Like it Comment. We’d love to have a conversation about it and we will see you next time.