Covetousness: The Sin Behind the Sin

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Melissa Kruger
It was almost the exposure of getting the life I thought I wanted that made me realize I needed a desperate heart change, not a circumstance change. I love it when Jackie, but

Courtney Doctor
I know, I know, I know it’s

Jackie Hill Perry
highlighted. It’s highlighted in my phone. I pulled it up. I Melissa,

Melissa Kruger
Hi friends. Welcome to the deep dish, a podcast from the gospel coalition where we love having deep conversations about deep truths. I’m Melissa Krueger, and I’m here with my co host, Courtney doctor, and I’m here with my former I hate same former co host of Let’s Talk, Jackie Hill Perry, Jackie, it’s great to have you here.

Jackie Hill Perry
Thanks for coming, y’all. It’s been a while, been a minute, been a month of

Melissa Kruger
Sundays, as we did podcast, Jackie, you were pregnant.

Jackie Hill Perry
It’s true. There was a, there was there was a there was a span of time where I me and Jasmine, where we just showed up with big bellies. Huh?

Courtney Doctor
What could that mean that we’re doing a podcast now, I don’t know.

Jackie Hill Perry
No, I that’s that that season is long gone. I’m pregnant with a purpose at

Courtney Doctor
this point. I meant for me or Melissa. Jackie, oh,

Jackie Hill Perry
anything is possible

Melissa Kruger
that takes on a biblical need exactly.

Courtney Doctor
Jackie, we are so glad that you’re here. It’s so fun to have you on and today we’re going to be talking about just a little light thing that we’ve heard other people struggle with covetousness and Melissa, we know that you wrote a great book. I even pulled it off my shelf from back in the day, because this was when you and I were first becoming friends. I did this with a group of women at the church where I was on staff, but the envy of Eve. And so since you wrote the book on it. Can you start us off with a good definition of what covetousness actually is? What are we? What do we mean when we say coveting?

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, that’s a good that’s a good question. I and this is going to sound wordy, what I’m going to say, so I’ll break it down, but, but I think, I think it’s helpful. It’s an inordinate or culpable desire to possess often, that which belongs to another. That was my kind of working definition. And let me define two of the other words, inordinate just means the depth of our desire has grown so much that basically, it’s resulting in sin in our life in some way. So, like, I’m perpetually discontent because I don’t have what I want, culpable desire. I actually that that term refers to wanting something that we know is prohibited us. So, you know, I mean, when Eve wanted that one fruit that she was told not to have, it wasn’t just the depth of her desire. She was actually desiring a wrong thing that had been prohibit, prohibited. So that’s kind of the working, the working thing. So it’s, it’s, it’s both the way we desire something and the what the object of our, of our desire, can you know, I think, be this sin called covetousness. So let me ask you this though. Let’s start it together, and Jackie, you can start us off. Why? Why do you guys think this is such a difficult sin pattern in the world today, like when you it’s interesting to me. I wrote the envy of Eve before Instagram was a thing really differently now.

Jackie Hill Perry
I mean, we have eyes. Maybe that might be a part of it. I think I I’ll say for me one, I did not realize how much I struggled with it, until recently. Honestly.

Courtney Doctor
What changed?

Jackie Hill Perry
I think I started to work through, I just started to work through the idea of discontentment, like I was just realizing that, like, I have a lot, I have a family, I have a husband, I have success, I have, like, I don’t, I don’t have what people would think is a life where I’m lacking, but I Do have a lot of lack, internally, mentally, socially, relationally, right? Like I do have a lot of places where there’s a loss that has created a lot of places where there’s discontentment. And so in me wanting to work through that, I was like googling things about discontentment, which led me to these things of the relation between discontentment and covetousness. I said, huh, there’s a relationship between that. And then I was like books about covetousness. And then I’m like Melissa wrote a book. I had not a I had not a clue. Automatic purchase. Automatic purchase. So I started reading it, and it was profound to me that this was at the root of so many problems. I started tapping Preston at the on the shoulder. I’m like, Do you realize that if we die to this, we die to so many others?

Courtney Doctor
Yeah, yeah. I love that, that it was, you know, discontentment that kind of revealed that it’s, it’s actually the discontentment was the symptom. It was the sign. It wasn’t the root, but that. And even if we go back to Genesis one, it’s like the enemy bred discontentment in EVE first, and then we see her desire and take and give and eat and all of the things that that she does as a result. But I’d never thought about the fact that the enemy was first sowing those seeds of discontentment. And I would even say, back to your question, Melissa, I’m not sure that it’s a new I don’t think it’s any more difficult. I mean, if it’s the first real sin that we see, or the root of the first sin that we see, then I don’t think it’s new in this age in any way. And like you said, Jackie, if we have eyes, I think a lot about Psalm 16 and the and verse verse five says this, and it’s been something that I’ve had to, like wrestle down into my heart over the last decade. But it says, David said, The Lord is my chosen portion and my cup, he holds my lot. Then he says the lines. So these are boundary lines. And so it would have been talking about the land inheritance, but we’re going to extrapolate from that. But the lines have fallen for me in pleasant places, indeed, I have a beautiful inheritance. And if you know anything about the land of Israel, not not all the land allotments were equal. Northern Israel was lush and abundant and fertile, and southern Israel is is desert. And yet, what he says is where you’ve placed me and these lines that you’ve put in my life, these boundary lines, I’m going to choose contentment in those and I think about all the boundary lines that the Lord has placed on me. You know, intellectual capability, physical capability, financial boundary lines, whatever it is just we’re limited, right? In all these ways, spiritual giftedness, boundary lines, all of these things, but this idea of resting within those lines that he has sovereignly drawn has been the thing that makes me just push this idea just back to your connection, Jackie, between contentment and covetousness, pushing this idea of contentment deeper into into my

Melissa Kruger
heart. One thing you said, Jackie, to like, if I look at your life from the outside, I’m like, oh, you know, you’re, you’re, you’re doing it. You’ve got a great, fulfilling career. You’ve got a great husband who you love. You’ve got great kids, well, at least they look great to us. They’re so cute and and for me, actually, what started me on this topic years ago was I realized I had gotten what I wanted. I had the husband, had the kids. We finally had moved back from Scott. We had been living overseas, so I was blaming my discontentment on my location. I was like, oh, it’s because it’s hard, because I live overseas. Well, now I’m back. I’m actually in the state where my family lives close to people I love, you know, with rootedness. And it was almost like the Lord was like, here, here you go, there you go, here you go. Here’s your life. And I was like, Huh? I’m still deeply struggling with feeling discontent each day about a variety of things, you know. And it was almost the exposure of getting the life I thought I wanted that made me realize I needed a desperate heart change, not a circumstance change. I love it. When Jackie, but

Courtney Doctor
I know, I know, I know y’all

Jackie Hill Perry
highlighted. It’s highlighted in my phone. I pulled it up. You probably can’t see it because it’s blurred. You want me to read it, read it, repeat it for us. She said my problem was in accepting the Lord’s will for my life, which involved these very trivial items that I grumbled and complained about in my heart, I can say, by God’s grace, He is changing my heart to trust and rejoice in him, regardless of my circumstances, however, my heart is the thing that needs changing, not my circumstances. If my heart is not freed from this sin pattern, then I will go from initial coveting to more coveting with attainment, gaining me only temporary happiness. Because I do think that covetousness is deceptive. Where you do think that if I get the thing, then I will be happy when it’s like, no, the heart is the issue. It’s not circumstantial. It really is. It’s it’s you. Mm, hmm.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, so, yeah, yeah. And I think it’s actually why we find so many people at the pinnacle of their career. That’s when they crash. Yeah, yeah. You look at people, you’re like, why are you doing that now? I mean, just go back to David, right? Like, King David. I mean, finally gets the kingdom, finally gets peacefulness, and he crashes and burns. Then, you know. And I think it just shows getting what we think we want is emptiness, ultimately, if we haven’t learned to rest in the Lord, in plenty or in want, like that’s, that’s the thing to attain.

Courtney Doctor
Okay, tie that into Genesis three. I was gonna say Genesis one. Tie that into Genesis one more. Really well. Genesis one is a lot better. Tie that into Genesis three. What you’re saying, both of you talk about this idea that this thing that became what Eve desired, knowledge of good and evil. She got it right. And so what like? What does that show us the attainment of this thing that we covet and take? How does that really expound this idea that you’re talking about?

Jackie Hill Perry
Yeah, I think there is something to be said about how God is wise in what he gives us when he gives it to us. And so it’s like Satan is offering you this thing, and you have this perception of it that’s not even being defined for you on God’s terms. And so when you get it, you actually get it. And you’re like, I can’t like, you get death. You’re not getting wisdom, you’re not getting goodness, you’re not getting life, you’re not getting and so you think, if I get the big house, I’ll be happy. But then you get the big house, and now you got a you your taxes are higher, right? Your gas bill is crazy. You understand what I’m saying? Clean, yeah, you got more. You got neighbors that you didn’t have to deal with before. There’s all of these things that you did not anticipate you would deal with because you were moving ahead of God’s wisdom. And so I think even our perspective, like the Lord knows what’s good for us. And so there’s something about covetousness where it’s like you think you know better, and contentment says, I just, I think if I just stay here, he just knows. He just knows.

Courtney Doctor
He just knows. Just knows. Like the author of Psalm 73 you know, there is nothing on earth I desire besides you. Because what you’re saying like we get it, these things on earth that we desire, and yet they just don’t satisfy. Because nothing, no one can satisfy except the Lord.

Melissa Kruger
And ultimately, it’s a belief in the thing over the belief in God. Yeah, you know, it’s like, I’m putting my trust, I’m putting my hope, I’m putting my expectation in getting that thing. Yeah? And the Lord keeps saying no, and sometimes he’s gonna give it to us so we’ll see it didn’t satisfy and sometimes I think he withholds so we can learn to find our satisfaction in him. Yeah, yeah. Like, I think both lessons are happening in this school room of our day. But to me, Jackie, what you were just saying? It’s actually not about circumstances, is all it’s about. Can I trust the Lord?

Jackie Hill Perry
I think that’s really the fundamental thing.

Courtney Doctor
Well, I was gonna go back to what you had said about if you get to this root issue of covetousness, then you are, you are actually addressing a myriad of sins. And yet, I think so often we tend to discount and and kind of just think, well, covetousness is not really that big of a deal. Everybody covered like everybody covets something, and we kind of push it down like it’s not this, this big deal. James would certainly have other things to say to us about this, this idea of you know what causes quarrels and fights among you? Is it not this? Your passions are at war within you. You desire and you do not have. So you murder, you covet and cannot obtain. So you fight and Quarrel you do not have because you do not ask and you do not you ask and you do not receive, because you ask wrongly to spend it on your own passions. So obviously coveting is at, like you said, the root. So why do we discount it? Why do we Why do we normalize it and accept it? If it is this thing that will do away with so many other sins, how can we give it its proper perspective in our fight against sin?

Jackie Hill Perry
Imma, Imma, ask y’all, I don’t hear people teach. About covetousness. Truthfully, I have heard about envy. I have heard about jealousy, but I do think, when you think about teaching books, literature, like conferences, a lot of what comes out is like, you know, sexuality, like those, but covetousness, I don’t really think we highlight that as a problematic feature of the human nature a lot. Would you say that might be a reason why we’re like? It’s if we don’t know that it’s a thing, then maybe it’s a part of why we’re also blind to it within our own selves.

Melissa Kruger
Yep, I think, yeah, there’s other ones. It’s easy to be like, well, that’s, that’s her problem, yeah? Like, we’ll talk about sexuality, because that’s somebody else’s problem, yeah. And we’ll, be real tough on it or whatever, or we’ll talk about even things like maybe greed, because I think we can hide behind I’m not greedy, so I must not be covetousness. I must not, you know, like we picture it just being about money. And so even for my my story, I never really wanted I wouldn’t have described myself as greedy, right? So it was. I was never chasing money. I mean, like both my husband and I went into ministry. We were not thinking, yeah, and I went to be a public school teacher, yeah? But I think we It hides because we limit it. We say, Oh, it’s just these little things. And so we think, Oh, I’m not, I’m not about money, but yet it, it’s actually every internal desire in my heart that’s messed up. Yeah, and if we, if we can keep it small rather than expansive, we don’t think it’s our problem. And you’re right, Jack, I don’t think people talk about it, and I don’t think we want to read about it. I don’t think because we think it’s someone else’s

Jackie Hill Perry
problem, it feels it feels like nasty or embarrassing, that might be a better word, to admit to being covetous. Feels like covetous or to being jealous like those are those, that package of sin that makes you feel a kind of like it’s you don’t want to identify with that one, not that one. It’s very similar to the person who says, Who prefers to say that they’re angry rather than saying that they’re hurt. There’s something about identifying with anger that still feels strong rather than saying I’m hurt. So to say that I’m covetous feels a little like, Who do you think I am? It feels weak. But maybe to identify that your covetous might actually break off some things, because now we’re getting to the root of some issues. That’s that’s

Courtney Doctor
good. Okay, so what is this? We keep talking about envy and coveting. So what’s the relation? I mean, are they synonymous? Are there differences, like, where’s the Venn diagram on envy and coveting?

Melissa Kruger
I like an umbrella. That’s what I like to say. Like, coveting is an umbrella sin, and under it, there are other words that are descriptive of types of coveting. So you’ve got greed, which tends to be possessions and money. Type got lust, which is coveting, that sexual in nature. And then you’ve got envy, which I like to think of as something your neighbor has that you didn’t even know you needed. And then you see, oh, I want that too, you know? So, so it’s like,

Jackie Hill Perry
I want a virtual toaster,

Courtney Doctor
a virtual toast

Jackie Hill Perry
making something else. I’m at home so much I see people making stuff like, oh, that make that. That would make breakfast so much easier for me. I never knew that I wanted that, and don’t even need it,

Courtney Doctor
but I’ve never heard of one, and now I want one,

Jackie Hill Perry
Jackie. I’m just saying covenant

Courtney Doctor
Well, Melissa, to your point when you know we read the 10 Commandments and the one on coveting, right? It’s very it goes through these different categories of things that I could almost put under your umbrella. You know, You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife or his male servant or his female servant. And I’m like, that could be either way. That could be, like, sexually, or that could be that. I just want that help. I want somebody coming over and, you know, I want somebody to clean my house, or whatever it is, or as ox or as Donkey, or anything that is, your neighbors. Like, very specific, very specific, lots of categories. Why do you think I mean, that kind of goes back to your umbrella explanation of these different types. I mean, I’m assuming that that’s what you would say is, that’s why we get these list of examples. But it also back to Jackie’s point. Means that this idea of coveting is pretty foundational to a variety of sins in our life.

Melissa Kruger
Well, who is it? Which for. Versus it. It says covetousness, which is idolatry. We’ll find it. Do you know that verse there is one I know my name is Colossians. It sounds like Colossians. Yeah. He parenthetically says covetousness, you know, otherwise known as idolatry, which is really interesting, right? The 10th Commandment circles back to the first and have no other gods before me, you know. And so it’s basically saying whatever we covet has has become an idol. And I think the list of all of these things is just showing the human heart is an idol factory, as Calvin said, like whatever exists can be made something that we bow down and worship to, that is the inclination of our hearts. And you’re right, it’s one of the only ones he lists out. He doesn’t say, Oh, you steal, you know, this, this or this. He just says, Don’t steal. Yeah, but on this one he lists it out. That’s interesting.

Jackie Hill Perry
I think when I have these kinds of conversations, there’s a part of me that laments the human condition, you know, because it just gets to how comprehensive sin is like it, just like when you really get to to to the root of it, just like Man, this is deep, this is really good. It’s in the passions, it’s in the desires, it’s in the affections, it’s in the thoughts, it’s in the thing. And that’s why, that’s why we need Christ, like we need him. And so I think there’s a sense in which it it’s just like you can’t be self righteous. You really cannot think that you can do this thing in the flesh, or depend on legalism or works or the law and all the stuff like you have to depend on him. But it also is to say that God has created us with a world of desires. And might it be that he has the capacity to satisfy us beyond our imagination, and there’s a reality that, like some of this stuff, won’t we won’t experience the glory, that’s just the reality. But could we press into him in a way that like man Lord, I just I’m needy. So let me pray more than I usually pray. Maybe I need to take up fasting. I haven’t been doing that because I thought it was religious, but my flesh is tripping like I need you. Let me talk to my sisters. Hey, I really been struggling. Maybe you need to get off Instagram for a while, sis. Like, like, that’s really messing with you. Like, maybe your issue isn’t porn, but you’re following a lot of relationship accounts that’s really messing with the way you viewed your husband. Like, having these really honest conversations that can help us just lean into Christ in a different way, and these temptations are just showing us our need. So I’m just saying, I don’t know. I’m just reflecting on, yeah, no, it’s so helpful. We need the Lord,

Courtney Doctor
like you’re saying. Sometimes it starts with just sitting long enough to let the Spirit reveal, bring these things up and show us, and then you’re giving us action steps of calling other believers into it in vulnerability and honesty and saying, you know, remind me of the gospel in this sin struggle, and point me to Christ in this sin struggle. Remind me of the sufficiency of Christ in this because, even as you were talking like I loved that, you know, you pointed us to the fact that all of these desires actually can only be and can be perfectly satisfied in Christ, they’re not going to be satisfied the way we think we want them satisfied, but they’re going to be satisfied in such better ways. Yeah, and but I think we just have to stop long enough to let this catch up with us, that this is what my heart is doing, and the sin factory that it is, and what I’m actually desiring.

Melissa Kruger
And can I say what comes on the other side? Because I’ve looked at this hard and long and let me tell you every time I speak on it, let me just say, like ants invade my house, like a ton of 1000 circumstances that I don’t want tend to come my way when I’m getting ready to speak on this topic. So Lord always keeps it very real about my issues every time I speak on it. And here’s what I will say, embrace how, how truly sinful we are. You know, Tim Keller always talk, and then we don’t have to try to be righteous. Like, I think that the reason we fight to say I’m not covetous is because we don’t want to need Jesus that much, like we just don’t want and here’s what I’ll say, the more I have just embraced I’m sorry. I’m doing it again. I’m sorry. The more of. Done that. I got no room for judgment, I could tell you, like talking about this topic, seeing my own heart over and over again, covet the stupidest things y’all. I mean, you know, just sorry. Just don’t have judgment for other people. Because when you’re doing battle, and you know how hard the battle is in your own heart over silly things. You stop looking at your sister who’s struggling and saying, What’s your problem? Yeah, you know, I would actually say the church’s problem is we don’t admit our own sin, and we want to always look at the sins of other people, and so therefore we have no compassion, we have no kindness, we have no tender heartedness towards the struggler, because we’re not actually fighting the sin we have in our hearts, you know? And so I will say the beauty of going ahead to accepting how much we are sinners, looking at this, exploring all the reasons I’m discontent, and saying, Yep, it’s a heart problem. Melissa is actually going to give birth to life like it’s not to condemn, it’s actually to help us lean into Jesus. And that’s salvation.

Courtney Doctor
That’s salvation. Yes, we definitely want to

Melissa Kruger
want to want it. We don’t want to need him. We’re still fighting for workspace righteousness. I see it in my heart. I don’t want to be this needy of a person. Sorry for crying.

Courtney Doctor
No, it’s so good, I’ll tell you what. Yeah, it’s real and it’s helpful and it’s true and it’s good, and it’s pointing us to Christ. And so why don’t we take a minute? Let’s take a break for an ad from our sponsor. We’re going to all get a Kleenex out, dry our eyes, and we will be back in just a minute to talk more about covetousness. Well, welcome back. I’m really looking forward to continuing this conversation. It’s so far been incredibly convicting and helpful, pointing my eyes back to Jesus. And I think what we’re trying to do is identify covetousness in our own heart and talk about ways that we combat it, that we push against it, and set our eyes back on Christ. But I think there’s also an angle that’s worth talking about, and that is talking about the desire we have and talk about like Jackie were saying, it’s hard to say these things about ourselves, but talk about the desire we have for other people to covet us, sometimes, the things that we do to stir up covetousness In in others, or that we kind of love that like that somebody would would envy or covet us or what we have. I mean, that’s that talk about ugly to look at. It’s a lot easier to look at me coveting something than to think about the fact that I would want somebody to covet what I have, what the Lord’s given me.

Jackie Hill Perry
And I don’t know if we would be as articulate as that, just because we don’t want our conscience to be hit a little bit. But I do, I think we want to be wanted. We want to be desired, and especially if you’re gifted. All of us are gifted in a variety of ways. We are gifted with intelligence. We might be gifted administratively, we might be gifted. Some of us are gifted esthetically with beauty. And I read this book by Hannah Anderson. I do not remember the title, but she has this section on there that I put in my pocket because it was just interesting, where she talks about beauty and how the thing with beauty is beauty draws things to itself. And how, when you look at the Grand Canyon, you just keep looking at it, but how the goal of beauty is to draw it to itself, so you can go beyond it to see where the beauty came from. And so if God has given you a beautiful thing, I think you don’t want someone to desire you or covet you for you, because that’s a little satanic. I’m not saying you’re a Satanist. I’m saying that that’s it’s a bit that’s pride right at its core, that’s a bit satanic, but it’s to steward that thing and say no, if I have a teaching gift, if I have a beautiful face, if I have an administrative gift, whatever that thing is, if you are drawn to me, I’m gonna use this beauty and steward this beauty so you can see where the beauty came from, right? That’s the goal. And so I just think that, I think the core desire is the desire to be wanted, the desire to be delighted in, but we are delighted in, in Christ,

Melissa Kruger
right? That’s good. I like that. It’s almost like a conduit leading people to Jesus, like we’re always lesser lights pointing to the better light.

Jackie Hill Perry
Yeah, and you gotta do some constant soul work, because. I mean, that stuff feels good, it does, yeah, but, but it will destroy you.

Courtney Doctor
It’s that constant question, what do I have that I haven’t been given? And the answer is absolutely nothing. And so if we’ve been given it, what? What is the purpose? I remember asking my youngest daughter when she was little, she was pretty academically gifted, and I just was maybe second grade, and I just remember saying, Who made you good at math? And she was like, God. And I said, Why did you why did he make you good at math? And she thought about it, and she was like, for the purposes he has for me, like, you know, and it’s like, that’s exactly it. I mean, everything that you have, whether it’s, you know, possessions, or, like you said, physical attributes or spiritual gifts, all of it, every single thing, is for His glory and the good of his people, and we receive it as a gift. I just love that, that that does. But I think what we’re seeing happen right now through social media is the desire for the gaze and the delight to be on that person, and it stops there. And so, like you said, that’s just constantly a question that we need to be asking of our own hearts. It’s a good diagnostic, diagnostic tool, litmus test for our own for our own hearts.

Melissa Kruger
Can I ask another question like that? How do you what are the sign posts on the road for you guys that you’re coveting? Like, just in general, like, so that’s kind of a Yeah, like, how? Because often we don’t want to admit we have this problem. Are there any kind of signposts that point and say, hey, hey, that’s coveting. Because I think, I do think we limit it to certain things, like, I’m gonna steal Courtney’s new coat. That means I’m coveting, you know, or whatever. But where do y’all how do you start to notice? Oh, this is about that, not about the thing, yeah, Want

Jackie Hill Perry
me to confess first, Yeah, always. That’s

Melissa Kruger
why I asked the question, come on.

Jackie Hill Perry
I think the intensity of the desire it it feels like a craving, like a hunger, and I take note of it in my it feels like lust, and it might not even be a sexual lust. It can be a thing, a person, a conversation, but it feels inordinate. And I’m like, Hmm, this isn’t that’s not okay. And I’ve noted how, I’ve noted how where there might have been, and this is because I can lean kind of thinking about trauma and all in its relationships and sin patterns, but I’ve noted how what I’ve lacked in childhood can play a part in what I covet as an adult, Right? And so where it’s like, oh, like, your mom didn’t do that. So you tend to want to covet this or so, or when Preston doesn’t do this, you want to covet that, like, and so I’m just, I have my antennas in certain directions where I am more prone to covet certain things, because these are my particular sin patterns. So I think the intensity of the craving, um, and the places the things that I just don’t say thank you to God enough for I just made, I’ve started to make note for the things I just don’t praise him for.

Courtney Doctor
Yeah, I would say along those lines, the areas of life that I’m complaining about or that I’m letting bitterness grow in those usually there’s something out there that I think I should have that I don’t and so that’s where that complaining bitterness is is growing. Or, just like you said, that growing sense of a lack of contentment in circumstances or whatever. I mean, it can be lack of it can be lack of contentment in anything, lack of contentment and spiritual gifts, lack of lack of contentment and in physical abilities. I mean, it just doesn’t matter. It’s all of it, right? And so all of that starts revealing this. But I liked what you said about you know, as we do, as we do good heart work of understanding our stories of origin. I just think that. So the temptation then is to stop with that knowledge, like I desire this because of a lack in my childhood, or because of trauma in my childhood, and and then we say, and so, so that’s that’s my reason. But that doesn’t mean, right, that, like what you were saying is pushing it past that and saying, Okay, now I can use that as a tool to help me recognize this thing that now I need to continue the heart work to press into Christ and into the more beautiful thing and the better thing and the thing that will satisfy you. Yeah, more. Melissa, what about you? What are some signposts, some red flags in your life?

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, I definitely would say where I see discontentment brewing and, oh, there’s a phrase I love. It’s from some old, long, dead guy. It says discontentment is merely the echo of unbelief that, yeah, just it’s so I’m like, What am I not believing? Discontentment, my question should be, what am I not believing? And so, like, these are really practical for me. Like, I, where am I giving myself an excuse to sin because of a circumstance in my life that’s not favorable? So, like, I was so uncoordinated, like, right now I have this hip pain that often wakes me up at night so I don’t sleep well. So, you know, I could just complain about the problem and then feel the right to yell at my husband or at my kid because I’m grumpy. Well, I have a right to be grumpy because I didn’t sleep well. When I turn it on its head, though, and say, I believe God ordained my hip problem. I believe God can give me sleep if he wants to give me sleep. You know, I believe that he can give me everything I need to endure a lack of sleep today and not be grumpy and complainy. Okay, that flips it on its head for me. So what I was giving myself license for looking at it in the face of God’s sovereignty changes how I view it like, Oh, this is my classroom for today to do Your will.

Courtney Doctor
That’s good. That’s good. So okay, as you’re talking about that, then what’s the difference between being honest about the difficulty of our circumstances and covetousness. So for instance, I mean, it’s hard to be a single parent, right? It’s hard to have an unreliable car that doesn’t work like, that’s hard. And it would be easy to covet a car that works like, it’s hard to feel like you never get a nice vacation, and then to covet the one of the people sitting at the beach or whatever. And so how, how do we just sit in that place of honesty? Like, this is hard, and yet I don’t want to covet as a result, yeah, like, It must be nice for people not to have hip pain. I think about the Hamilton song all the time, like, It must be nice because that’s, that’s another red flag, right? Well, must be nice, must be nice to have, you know, whatever it is,

Melissa Kruger
I’d like your problems. I’d like your problem, you know, like, when you Yeah, like, I mean, we all kind of struggle with that little itch when someone comes back from vacation, yeah, they’re tired. I’m like, right?

Courtney Doctor
Their vacation wore them out.

Melissa Kruger
And I do the same thing. I mean, like, all the time, same thing. Yeah, that’s a really good question. It has changed how I asked for prayer requests. Because sometimes, if you’ve ever been in a Bible study prayer group, you’re like, did this just become a complaint fest? Like, we’re all just like, let me tell you my hard thing,

Jackie Hill Perry
Murmur, murmur,

Melissa Kruger
whereas I’ve changed it to be like, I think it’s totally okay for us to cry out to God, to lament, to God, to say, Hey, this is hard. You know, like to be able to say, hey, Courtney and Jackie, Will y’all pray for my hip, but in the meantime, will you pray that I’m loving to my family in the midst of it? That’s my sin. Problem needs to be addressed,

Courtney Doctor
to and that God uses this hard thing to conform Christ in me, yes, like, yeah,

Jackie Hill Perry
yeah. I remember, I had a really difficult season a year ago, just with a lot of like, sadness, despair. And Psalm 88 was a really great song for me, because I just really love that. It was just so depressing, and it did not end well. He just, it doesn’t conclude with a bow. It’s just like, Yeah, I just kind of feel like you’re not listening to me, and, you know, death responds me and all that. And it is. It is. It just goes to Psalm 8089 and that’s it. And I’m like, Hey, I feel it. And Tim Keller has a sermon on that text, and he says, sometimes we can feel as if being honest with God about how we feel in hard seasons or no, we can read Psalm 88 and feel as if it’s irreverent. Feel as if he’s being too transparent. Feel as if what he’s saying shouldn’t be said he was like But the difference is, everything he’s saying, He’s saying to God, and I think that has been good to me in seasons and moments of discontentment, is that before I say anything that I got to say to anybody, I’m gonna say that thing to God. Now I don’t, I don’t know if you like what I’m about to say, but this is hard. I don’t like it. I’m frustrated. They got that like, I’m gonna just say all the things I’m gonna just say. I’m a cry, I’m a lament, I’m a complain, I’m I’m a complain with. Expect, and then I’m gonna, I’m gonna confess what I know to be true about you. I know that you know me. I know that you see me. I know that you’re a provider. I know that you’re faithful. And somehow, in that mix, he comes to my aid. And so I do. I think that is one of the ways that we can be honest, find contentment is in prayer, but a particular kind of prayer, I think that’s lament.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, good, that’s good. Somebody. Again, I’m borrowing this from someone, and I’m gonna butcher it probably it said murmuring is, or, you know, lament is, is complaining to God. Murmuring is complaining about God. You know, like, like pouring our heart out to God is lament, like what you were saying. And Jackie, you was crazy that sermon from Tim I was there when he preached that one, I got to hear that one person. I mean, when you said it, I was like, I know exactly this one, because I never thought about that song, that there was no bow, until I heard him preach that sermon, whatever. Anyway, so I listened to it three times. It’s really good. We should put it in the show notes, because it is really good. And there’s a quote from Joyce, from a Russian author, I can’t say his name in there, that I love as well anyway, but I think that’s such a different attitude of the heart. Because when you look at the Israelites in the desert, what are they doing? They’re constantly comparing back, oh yeah. Remember back in Egypt, we had piles of meat, we had all this good stuff. They’re complaining about what God’s done, and they’re forgetting his benefits. You’re saying slavery was better than walking with you. And essentially, we’re saying slavery to sin is better than walking with you when we Yeah, when we when we murmur, oh,

Courtney Doctor
well, so okay, just to kind of tie this up, I mean, we’ve been talking about the fact that discontentment that like spending enough time quietly with the Lord to let this sort of bubble to the surface, to see what’s actually in our hearts, because it’s in all of it, all of us, and that covetousness is like this foundation for all these other sins, or an umbrella, like you said, Melissa, that that really reveals all or helps us understand All of these other sins, but then as we press into like, taking our very real laments and frustrations and confusion and sadness to the Lord and letting him meet us in it that he would, I mean, I’m just going back to Psalm 16 again and again. It’s the thing that I sit before the Lord and I say it’s like speaking that truth back to him that you were talking about. Jackie, the lines have fallen for me in pleasant places like I don’t want to forget all His benefits, and I want to live within these boundary lines that he has set. And I want my heart to be so deeply content with what he’s given and what he’s chosen not to give, because that’s like, that’s the trajectory, that’s the goal, is to be content with both the things he’s given and sometimes he gives hard things. So I want to be content not just in the good things. I want to be content in the hard things. And I want to be content in what he’s not given, the stuff that I really want, that he has, sovereignly and wisely and lovingly said, That’s not yours. That is not yours. And so like, this whole, this whole conversation is helping me, like, really press into that.

Melissa Kruger
Can I follow up on one thing? Oh, yeah. Before we, before we get to the wrap up, I just want to say what you’re saying, Courtney, about the lines falling for me in pleasant places. It is the cry of the Christian, meaning, no matter if everything is taken from us, everything, we will never lose Christ. And so to me, the only way to have present contentment is you look at the past, at the cross, and you say, My soul has been ransomed. And you look ahead to heaven and you say, That’s my home, and it’s coming, and that steadies and anchors us here. It’s a past thing that’s been one and a present reality that’s coming and that’s gonna study us. That’s what we can always say. And this is unique to the Christian. Yeah, honestly, the non Christian cannot say the lines have fallen for me in pleasant places. If they are billionaires, they cannot say it, yeah, yeah, only the Christian is safe, like, only the Christian can say that Psalm. And anyway, I just wanted to say because I think it’s so rooted in our souls being one, because I think I’m tempted to look and be like, well, Courtney’s got a little bit better boundary lines than me, you know, or Jackie’s got better boundary, like, yeah, whereas, no, no, no, if it’s Christ, we’re all sharing the same boundary lines.

Courtney Doctor
I know, I ask him all the time. I think about, like, reveal to me what I love most that you’ve given and then let me put in what would happen to me if you took it away, you know. Like. I do not want my identity to be in what he’s given the things that I love most, and it’s that’s like,

Jackie Hill Perry
poof. That’s good.

Melissa Kruger
Now you cry. Make me feel I know, oh,

Courtney Doctor
Lord, sanctify us, sanctify us, sanctify us, sanctify us. Okay. Well, I do want to ask you a fun question, Jackie, but you also, before you answer it, can can wrap this up and add whatever you want to it. But my fun question is, tell us something that you coveted as a kid that didn’t live up to the hype.

Jackie Hill Perry
Probably driving,

Courtney Doctor
driving.

Jackie Hill Perry
Yeah, I don’t

Courtney Doctor
see that coming.

Jackie Hill Perry
That’s the only thing I can remember right now in this moment,

Courtney Doctor
some girls shoes or belt like I had this friend who had a it was like a big white belt with all these Disney characters around it. And I was like, dang, if I could have a belt like that, I’d be the coolest kid in the classroom.

Jackie Hill Perry
No, because I it’s not that like I was I didn’t want a lot as a kid, um, in a sense, like, maybe because the things I did want I would either get, or my mother made me work for it. And so if I couldn’t get it, she’s like, work for it, and I will work for it to get it. So there was this interplay of she provided, and I just did what I had to do to get that thing. So the one thing I find, I found ways to satisfy it. And so which is interesting, I might explore that in my brain, when I get off of how there can be some frustration thing when I can’t strategize my way into getting what I want. Yeah, um, but I think I think driving. I just remember wanting to leave the house and get a car, because I remember all of my friends had cars, and that frustrated me. Like everybody when they turned 16, their parents bought them a car. My mother did not have that kind of finances, and so I just, I just so unfair. I’m like, Y’all got cell phones. She wouldn’t give me a cell phone. Y’all got cars. I didn’t have a car, really. That was protection on so many levels. But now, as a 36 year old with a car living in Atlanta, where everything is 3045, minutes away, I don’t actually want to drive that much. I don’t want that Disney belt anymore. I don’t want to drive that much. I don’t want I don’t I don’t want to. I don’t want to be putting these car seats in and out all the time now. I want to be filling up this. You know how much it costs to fill uptake. I Glory be to God that He gave me gas money. This is where we give Him praise. Thank you Lord for gas money. But I just, I thought in 2025, the way the movies was set up in the 80s, I thought we’d be flying by now, well, we’re about to say we got artificial intelligence. I thought we’d be flying, but we’ll

Courtney Doctor
I know I’m disappointed. I know so that’s good. Here we are.

Courtney Doctor
That’s good. Well, friends, we hope that you have enjoyed this episode of the deep dish from the gospel coalition. If you have found this helpful, please consider sharing it. Like us. Leave us comments. Let us enter into this conversation with you about how you are combating covetousness in your own heart, and we will see you next time you.