The Challenges of Ministering Well Amid the Waves of a Divisive Culture

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Jim Davis
Welcome to as in Heaven season three. My name is Jim Davis. I am your host and the pastor of Orlando Grace Church, and I’m joined by my co host and dear friend Michael Aitchison, who serves as the pastor at Christ United fellowship here in Orlando. And today we have the privilege of being joined by Robert Cunningham. Robert is the former senior pastor of Tates Creek Presbyterian Church in Lexington, Kentucky, and currently the director of Christ for Kentucky. In addition to his responsibilities there, he has been a regular contributor to The Lexington Herald Leader, and the religion and culture commentator for Kentucky sports radio. He’s also the host of a popular cultural engagement podcast called every square inch. He is a graduate of covenant seminary and pursuing his PhD at the University of Leicester researching the role of religion in America’s founding era. Robert and his wife Abby have four sons. And Robert has many hobbies including pertinent to my co host interest here today. All things University of Kentucky athletics. Robert, thank you so much for joining us.

Mike Aitcheson
For I was so glad you’re here with us today. My dear friend, this is a shameless plug. What is the greatest college athletic institution on the face of this earth.

Robert Cunningham
That’d be the University of Kentucky.

Mike Aitcheson
There we have it. Ladies and gentlemen, you have it. I say no more. So glad that you’re here with us this morning, man. I think back to some fun days that we had there in Lexington. Man, I’ve learned so much from you, and continue to learn from you over the years and glad to hear of all the great ways that God is using you.

Robert Cunningham
Likewise, brother grateful for your friendship. And yeah, just not not only your pastoral work and ministry and friendship, but also your contributions to the great University of Kentucky. Most importantly,

Mike Aitcheson
go big blue cats.

Jim Davis
This season on the podcast, we have been talking about living in a new context in the US called the great deed churching as 40 million people who used to regularly attend church don’t anymore, which is changing so much about the very fabric of our society. We’re flushing this out over the course of the season. And today we’re talking with Robert because of his experience in pastoral ministry, and also his thoughtful engagement with significant cultural issues that impact the spiritual formation in the church here in America. So as we looked across the various factors that are moving people out of the church today, we’ve seen the need for churches to confront these factors that are forming or mal forming their members into disciples, either of culture or of Christ, as like as local pastors ourselves, we feel frequently battered by the constant waves of cultural change and outrage that frequently cycles through in mass media, social media, local media, that have far reaching ripples both into into every aspect of the pews of our churches. So we wanted to talk with Robert today about how to faithfully engage with and not be consumed by these waves of culture ourselves. Roberts podcast is actually a great example of this. We commend it to you. So let’s jump in. Robert, first question. Every so often there are these significant waves or shifts in culture with varying degrees of complexity and influence implications for how you engage them. From your perspective. What are some of the major ones, how have you seen them develop? And on our current trajectory? What kind of outcomes do you expect?

Robert Cunningham
Yeah, that that’s a lot. Let me let me start by saying I do think it’s important. James Hunter is a scholar UVA speaks of cultural climate versus cultural weather, and argues and I agree with him that Christians tend to focus too much on the weather and not the climate. And the reason why I say that is just pick your pick your issue. If you if you’re going to discuss race in America, and the climate would be the history of race in America, the implications of us once enslaving and segregating and oppressing a group. That would be the climate, cultural climate that we’ve created. A weather event would be something like George Floyd’s tragedy, and what we tend to do is we tend to focus too much on the weather and not the climate. And so when I’m talking about issues that I think are are important for us, or might be impacting ministry in the world But it’s upon us. I think more in terms of climate things going on. So race are mentioned that that would be a big one. I think expressive individualism, that’s a climate issue that’s been building since really the enlightenment. And then the weather would be something like gender ideology and things like that. I think a big issue is the politicalization of Christianity. That’s that’s been a climate issue, cultural climate issue for us, really, from our inception that you’ve mentioned, I’m getting my PhD and early American history, and it was in the waters from the beginning. And so you know, that the way we’ve politicized Christianity in America, I think is a huge thing. And then a weather issue would be something like a Donald Trump or whatnot. Yeah, so So culture wars typically manifest themselves in the arena’s of weather when I think the church needs to be in the arena of climate, and leveraging those weather events to redirect towards a climate cultural climate engagement. Yeah, I think I think political zation What have I mentioned identity expressive individualism, raise our technology technology be maybe arguably the biggest one that we’re facing? Jacque Jacque, a lawyer, he’s a French philosopher. His name is really fun to say Jacques a little you know, his work and then Kentucky’s own shameless plug, Wendell Berry, I think they’re being I think they’re being proven true that technology, technology, if there is going to be a demise of humanity, it’s going to be in the arena of technology. So the climate issue we’re facing is the way technology has completely overtaken our culture. The weather is manifesting itself in loneliness, anxiety, depression, paranoia, rage, so many different things are coming from this cultural issue of climate. So you know, there’s a lot I can name, we could talk about a bunch of them, but I think there’s some of the big ones.

Mike Aitcheson
That Robert, that’s very helpful. Man, speaking of Wendell Berry, one of my favorite books, and ones that I refer to people around the conversation of race is actually the hidden wound continues to be an encouraging one for me and challenging for friends. So let me ask you this, given these realities, how have you experienced their impact on the detaching phenomenon? Do you see people moving out of the church due to the churches, inability to interact and interact critically? And helpfully?

Robert Cunningham
Can I say yes, and no. Yeah. Or let me say how, yes, yes, and that evangelicals are notoriously behind the times on cultural issues or ignoring cultural issues all together. I think Mark Knowles, scandal of the evangelical mind is just not only did I agree with it, I just think it’s hugely significant. In this area that we’re talking about that that evangelicalism from its from its inception, no argues, I think convincingly has had an anti intellectualism thing about it. And it’s just not producing robust, robust thought leaders to help Christians navigate culture well, and not just to help Christians understand it, but we’re not putting forth compelling Christian perspectives on this issue. And yes, I do think because of that, because we just don’t know what we’re doing with culture. I do think that that contributes to the detergent de churching phenomenon. But the reasons say yes and no, I would say no, and the fact that so much of the discharging phenomenon is a rejection of things that need to be rejected. They aren’t rejecting Jesus, as much as they are rejecting what we, I would argue have done to Jesus, they’re rejecting a sub culture caricature of Jesus formed less by scripture, creed, sacraments and these things and much more. By the cultural changes we’ve been discussing, that the church has uncritically aligned themselves with, that tends to be what they are, what they’re rejecting.

Mike Aitcheson
Okay, very insightful, very insightful. Well, moving along here, oftentimes the factors that are involved in the way people consume and process all these cultural waves can lead to shouting over one another accusations and just playing talking past one another. Sometimes as something as small as a prayer on Sunday morning, can lead a pastor to be accused of being In a critical race theorists right Yeah, right. Well, okay, watch out now. Now you Medellin is what they say, right? Likewise, a Facebook post on the Fourth of July, can lead another to being called a Christian nationalist. And all of them are making the same claim, you have abandoned the faithful teaching of Scripture. Okay? And this leads people to leave churches that at one point, you know, as you’re just mentioning a while ago, they felt a deep sense of belonging and connection to. So I want to be gracious and critical here and ask you, how do we think of when it is faithful versus when it’s unfaithful? To actually leave your church?

Robert Cunningham
I’ll be less gracious and more critical. I thank you for being gracious and critical. Yeah, most leaving that is taking place I think is unfaithful if the church is not abusive, and that’s a real problem, and I welcome the church abuse purge that is taking place in evangelicalism, amen. But if a church is not abusive, if the church is faithfully preaching the Word, administering the sacraments, holding to orthodox confessions, living together and loving, faithful community and so forth, and chances are the reason people are leaving is unfaithful, unfaithful motivations. So first and foremost, I think church leadership needs to do the assessment here. Is our leader do we have? Is there a toxic thing in the water here? is are we leading faithfully? Or is there spiritual abuse taking place? Are we you do need to ask are people leaving a repudiation of what we have become are a culture we have created, we need to humbly listen to that. The problem is narcissistic leadership is incapable of that evaluative work. So if you are doing that, if you are open to correction, if you are teachable, if you are willing to humbly assess your leadership to see if there is a log in your own eye that needs to be addressed, then that’s the best indication that people aren’t leaving, because your leadership is harmful. Now, on the cultural side of things, I do think I do think, because, again, alright, we’re setting that evaluation apart. Now we’re saying, Okay, we got our problems. We’re the first to admit it. But I don’t think people are leaving because we’re unfaithful, theologically, morally, or anything like that. All right, so then people are leaving, because you prayed a prayer. You said something on social media, it didn’t align with it. So now we gotta get into the cultural side of things. I do think being a skilled public theologian has risen to be as important as a skilled Systematics. theologian, when I say public theology. Some people you don’t even know that discipline within Christianity, you know, you’ve got biblical theology, the study of Scripture, systematic theology, the systematizing, of of our theology and whatnot. Public theology is a forgotten discipline of the pastor, which is the ability to take our theology and apply it to the world around us in a compelling way. And I do think that pastors do need to really devote themselves to that discipline in the age that is upon us for the reasons you’re bringing up. You know, you don’t have to do it. I do do it. But a part of the reason why I do it is to equip others to at least be knowledgeable about it. I have many weaknesses, as a pastor, as a thinker. But one of the areas that I think God has gifted me is the ability to speak to culture to offer a Christian perspective in a public square. But it’s important I say, that’s not everyone. And you don’t have to be that past pastors reached out to me all the time and say, Man, I love how you came at this issue. It was so good. But also I kind of left feeling discouraged and intimidated, because I don’t feel like I can do that. And my response is always the same. You don’t have to do it. If you like to just steal it from me, I don’t care steal from somebody you like give them intellectual credit. But I’m not saying every pastor needs to be a great public theologian, I’m saying that they need to be educated in what our theology has to say, to the public square now more than ever, because of all the things that you just mentioned. You’ve got to be skilled in this area.

Jim Davis
So one of the things we’ve talked about in previous episodes, we’ve commissioned the the largest and most comprehensive nationwide quantitative study ever produced on the DEA churching drilling down on why people or D churching, where they’re going, how we can bring them back. And one of the things when we when we isolated D church, evangelicalism D church and high school, college young professional, there was like this pendulum. On one side, people would D church because they felt like the church leaders didn’t give them any answers and resources from the Bible to to really engage the world that they lived in. So it just felt irrelevant. On the other side, people felt like it was all about politics. That’s what it was, you know, all the applications all as too extreme, many of the applications came down to how you should vote. And that turned a generation off. So I kind of want to drill down just a little bit on the politics as a pastor. In my own context, I’m asked questions like, What are you doing to address the abortion issue? We have an abortion clinic, across the street from our church. I’ve had people ask me, What are you doing to win back our country? We’ve had a fierce, I don’t use that word lightly. Debate, let’s say robust debate on whether or not voter guides should be distributed in worship, in November. So so as a pastor, I just want to ask you, how are we to think through what is faithful, biblical cultural interaction? I guess we can start with the pastor it and then just work through church leaders and your average, your average member?

Robert Cunningham
Yeah, I think you have two options here. Pastors, church leadership, you know, Christian organizations, I think you have two options here. One is just, I’m not going to go there. I’m going to love my people, I’m going to preach the Word, I’m going to minister a sacrament, you know, you’re going to kind of Eugene Peterson, your way through this cultural moment. And I think that’s okay. That’s beautiful, that’s faithful, it really is to create a countercultural community of love and faithfulness, that in itself is a protest to what has become of our culture, we’re just going to embody a different culture here. And that’s, that’s kind of how we’re approaching it. The problem, however, that many pastors and leaders feel, is I can’t faithfully preach the word, I can’t love and disciple my people, if I don’t go there, because they are being discipled, all week long by the cultural war. So there’s this tension of man, I don’t really want to go here, I this is not what I signed up for. But I kind of have to go there, because that’s where my people are. And if I’m going to faithfully meet them, in this moment, I’ve got to meet them there. So here’s the second option, you do go there, without cherry picking the issues. And to me, that’s, that is the key, if you’re going to wade out into the controversial cultural waters, then you’re going to have to have the courage to do so on both sides. So if they’re gonna if they’re gonna get mad at you for talking about things, never let them say of you, he’ll talk abortion, but he won’t talk rice. Never let them say of you, he’ll talk justice for the poor, but he won’t talk about sexuality. Do not let it in other words, do not let our cultural divide dictate the terms of your cultural engagement and leadership. I IT people, people when I was pastor of DCPC, you know, we had people with leave our church because of my leadership and whatnot. And, and the reason why I could go to bed at night and say, I’m okay, here is because I had some people leave because they thought I was woke. And then I had some people leave because they thought I was, you know, way too conservative. And if, if that’s going on, in our moment, that’s probably an indication that you’re being faithful to this cultural moment.

Jim Davis
Well, I really appreciate that I’ve I in our context, I’ve been saying, often the people who, who, you know, at a more national level, who I respect the most to who I perceived to have a real holistic walk with Jesus are the ones who are getting it from both sides. And you’re you’re reiterating that once again.

Robert Cunningham
Listen, the Jesus promised hostility in the world. The way you know that it’s Jesus doing the offending and not you doing the offending is hostility on both sides.

Jim Davis
And he was getting it from both sides. Yeah, then like our Savior. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That’s really helpful. I want to hear a little bit more about your story. You’ve been pastoring 20 plus years. You did Pastor 20 plus years. You were at the same church through five presidential elections. So that I guess would that make Bush’s back into election was that your first election as a pastor, from counting right, somewhere somewhere in the early 2000s. And you’ve seen changes, cultural changes through these different political seasons, you’ve seen the advent of technology, the accessibility of videos, both helpful and extreme, other forms of media that show us parts of the world, both good and bad, that we would have not been able to see before in many cases. And it just has reshaped the world in ways that really, we could have never imagined 20 years ago, having been in the same place for all of this, can you share with us how you have been transformed pastoring through these massive waves of cultural change?

Robert Cunningham
Yeah, so And by the way, I still view even though I’ve taken on a different role, more broader leadership role within our state, I’m still ordained. I’m still an ordained minister in the PCA. And so I still, I still do view myself even though my work is a little bit more unconventional. Now, I still do view myself as a pastor, just offering some pastoral leadership more broadly, within our state was definitely changed. There’s no doubt about it. But again, going back to the point I made earlier, we want to we want to be careful not to focus on weather events and not the climate. I do agree, particularly in the area of individual expression, expressive individualism. I do agree with Carl Truman’s assessment here that, that we are at a boiling point, the reason why, you know, you mentioned presidencies, the reason why President Obama ran his first campaign on a traditional view of marriage. And now, and now, I mean, that’s that view, of course, is beyond the pale. But even now, you know, gender ideology is so is so militant. That happened in the span of since I’ve been a pastor. And so yes, there’s been quick cultural developments. The point I’m trying to make is, that is an eruption of something that’s been building for a couple of centuries, honestly. But yeah, I do think in some ways we are living in, you know, everybody thinks their cultural moments, the worst. So we get when we guard against that, but I do think that there is something uniquely, probably specifically in the area of sexuality more than anything, sexuality and technology. I think in those two areas, probably we are living in something unprecedented. And so so how do I make this and stuff like that? You know, I would say, you mentioned I’ve been in the same place for 20 years. And I have even when I left my conventional role as senior leadership at at my church, and now I’m in a more unconventional role. I stay, it’s in Kentucky for a reason. And my public work is focused on Kentucky for a reason, I think the most important thing right now, and in this rapidly changing social order, is to focus on place. I am from Kentucky. I love Kentucky. I know, Kentucky. I know how Kentuckians think I get it. And so because of that, I am able to just pull it out of my mind. You know, New York City and California and focus on the little sphere of creation that God has entrusted to our pastoral care. And I think that is paramount. I think that is paramount to cultural engagement right now, let me help you understand what I mean. So like, you mentioned the different election cycles. So I’m ministering a deeply red state that voted overwhelmingly for Donald Trump. I have a lot of my former church, there were a lot of people that voted for Donald Trump. And I was able to be one of the first critics of evangelical support of Donald Trump, as a pastor in a trump state with people in the pews, Donald Trump. Here’s why I was able to pull that off. Because I know my people, and I love my people, and they love me. And so even in my criticism of Donald Trump, I also said, Hey, listen, everybody in the rest of the country, angry at every person who voted for Donald Trump, I know these people, and I know these people, and you may disagree with their vote. They’re lovely people. And, and, and the vast majority of them, held their nose and voted for what they thought was the better of two options and And they liked his policies, they wanted his justices. And so and so they, you know, they held their nose and voted. And the Maga people left my church. All this left are those who just said I wish that guy would shut up, but I voted for him. Because I, I was able to speak like that as a Kentucky in who knows Kentuckians, I was able to then offer a critique of Trump. Another example would be when when when George Floyd’s tragedy went down. I mean, got it got to talk about that, right. It’s what an opportunity again, that’s a weather event that gives you an opportunity to talk about the climate of race in America. And so I did, but I’m in Kentucky. I, you know, an hour east of me and Appalachia, is you’re not going to find you’re not going to find more. It just I won’t say I’m just telling you, Kentucky is a tough place to talk race. All right. So what I did when I when I did it was I started the whole discussion, critiquing social theories that in many ways have become social religions. CRTs, obviously, the one that’s just been the catch all for all of this. And there are things that we can learn from some of these social theories. But I affirmed what they were sensing that these social theories have become social religions that in many way are threatening the gospel that we believe is the greatest news, socially speaking the world has ever known. I affirmed that I critique that i i came after I started by critiquing those who love to talk race, but they’re only talking about it was virtue signaling on social media. I said that because that’s what these people who don’t like to talk about race see. They see all it’s just you know, social justice warriors, posts on social medias never go anywhere. I started there. And then I said, Okay, now having critiqued these things that I think you see, and I affirming with you, we’re going to have this discussion. And then when I had the discussion, I, I traced slavery through Jim Crow through redlining, all the way down to Lexington, Kentucky, and I showed them tangibly, how our city has been formed by a racist pass and I help them see that tangibly. And the reason why I’m saying this is because I think what is if you’re going to pastor, a minister, people through this place, is everything. Let let the country get enamored by the political theatrics of Washington, you focus on where God has you? And how does this cultural moment speak to where your people are? Know them, love them, speak to them where they are? That was a lot, but

Jim Davis
no, there’s a lot that I appreciate, too. So I want to you I love how you talked about staying in one place, knowing your people. Third generation Orlando, and graduated Florida State moved around the world a little bit came back. And I mean, I just I don’t want to be anyplace else. Even so, you’ve talked a lot about people leaving your church are I’ve been here four and a half years. And 70% of the church I inherited is now gone. And, of course COVID politics race, all that. I want. I’d like to ask you a little a little bit about people leaving because there is this idea new some people whose idea you need to stay in one local church and never leave. I think you would say there is a time to switch churches and and what does it look like to pastor people out of your local church, but in a way where they do end up in another faithful local church, maybe a different expression? Maybe you know, they would do things different than you but the goal as people leave is to see them land in a gospel centered church. So what does it look like for you to pastor these people out of your church and for us to pasture people out of this church? Well, with the hope that they do land in a good place.

Robert Cunningham
Yeah. You know, I say often to my own. I keep talking president when I was pastoring, a local church. I said often that it’s okay. If we’re not the place for you. It really really is. What’s had the conversation I have I have said from the pulpit I have said from the pulpit. Listen, it t CPC is not the local expression of Christianity that you think fits where God has you for variety of reasons. I’m I would be the first to I would I know the churches in the city really well. I would love to help you find a church where you feel like you can truly plug in into that community members, I tell people, I told people that if you are, if you’re just a visitor, a long standing visitor in the pews who for a variety of reasons, you know, something we believe or whatever, you’re just not willing to join the church, but you want to just kind of be at the church, I’ve told people, I would rather go out, I would rather you find a church that you can join with excitement and confidence than to just be a bystandard. In the pews. I value church membership more than I value numbers in the pews. And so I think just being open and honest with that, and and having that conversation and creating a culture at your local church that says I’m not threatened by the church down the street that fits you more, I’d love to connect you with that, Pastor. Now say that. I also want to just for weary pastors here. If you know I’m running through, I’ve had a lot of families like that. But then, you know, I did have I did have some folks leave, because they did get caught up in some toxic shoe and on Christian nationalism stuff. And I do I want to be careful with this. This is pca talk. I don’t know. I don’t know how your your world practices church discipline. But we didn’t let them leave. graciously. We didn’t we, I’m thinking of a couple folks. We did not say Oh, I’m sorry, we didn’t fit you. Let me let me connect you with the Q anon church down the road. We practice church discipline, we wrote them a letter and said, and and it was, you know, it’s humble. It was kind, it was gracious, but it was firm, that we think you’re going down a path of destruction, with some of the thing is, this is not who you are, and something has gotten in you. So I want to caveat with giving pastors the courage to names, if it’s truly leaving in a very toxic harmful way to it’s okay to name that. And to speak to that.

Mike Aitcheson
Rather than that’s very helpful way you frame that, I just, I’m sitting here processing moments that I’ve had to have difficult conversations with members who have left over, you know, unfair accusations and and I share the same burden that if there’s a better situation for you, we want to help you get there, I’d much rather you just tell me that this doesn’t resonate with you then create a problem for which you need to leave. And so that’s a very helpful way you frame that. And I think there is a place to, to have a firm, you know, conversation upon departure. You know, Robert won’t say this, but I will, one of the things that I’ve appreciated about you is just being able to witness your engagement of these important issues. And speaking of, you know, racial climate, okay. Years ago, I remember before some of the big events and culture, you’d bring me in, and we’d have private conversations with other leaders, and you gave me the opportunity to preach at the church. And so I’ve appreciated your air and ground attack, as we, you know, tried to dive into the conversation around race biblically. And, in fact, you were I was with Jim Davis, our families were together on vacation when George Floyd happened. And one of the first people who called me after that was you, okay, and ministered to me and asked me questions asked me the hard questions about how do we press into these realities? How do we lean into them in a way that glorifies God in a way that cares for people well, and I’m just so blessed to see your transformation. But give us some, were there any significant moments or milestones, as you think of your journey and engaging these hard discussions, these waves of culture that brought you to a more intentional engagement? We know that you’ve always cared about these things. But were there things along the way in the pastorate, that you experienced, that drew your closer drew you closer to engaging in the conversation of race and in the conversation around sexuality, all these different things that continue to plague us?

Robert Cunningham
You know, part of part of be a part of experience, but maybe more. So just just God’s unique wiring of who he has me to be. I’ve just always been a guy that was to think through these cultural issues engaged in and whatnot. And I really want to emphasize that that that is not that’s not a requirement for the pastor. And I would even argue that that’s, that’s a unique part of the reason why I left conventional ministry to, to lead this public organization is, is I did, I did feel like some of that got it wired me a unique way. And I wanted, I wanted to space to really devote myself to that. So I do think there’s a wiring here, I think the expanding experience way I experienced a lot of what we’ve been discussing on this podcast is I started realizing that people were leaving churches coming to churches, just that people’s Christianity was increasingly becoming dictated by cultural issues. And so I just, I just said, this is discipling, our people, I mean, I mean, they are really being discipled, by cultural pundants, 24/7, really, with the advent of technology. And I just said, I’m going to enter in these waters and try to offer a compelling, thoughtful, Christian alternative to what they are, what they’re getting discipled and throughout the week, so that my wiring combined with I think an urgency came together, and I just started doing it more and more.

Mike Aitcheson
Well, let me ask you this. Robert, I know in you alluded to this earlier, okay. Eugene Peterson model versus kind of cultural engagement model now, and that’s fair. Okay. But, and you’ve felt God call you to step out and take a broader approach to leadership, but I want to zoom back into the pastor. Okay, so what role do you see the pastor playing? Okay, more particularly in shaping members for this cultural moment? Alright, so some folks have way too high an expectation for the pastor’s role here, okay. But then others have a way too low expectation. So you had said, Hey, if you’re gonna, if you’re going to get in, that you need to be addressing things holistically. So you’re not, you know, accused of taking one side or the other. But I want to kind of send it a question around, well, what expectation should people have at all of their pastor? Right? Because, you know, the saying, you know, what a person believes by what they’re not saying as well. And I’ve actually, in the past, people have said to me, Well, you haven’t said anything about this yet. So it’s leaving us to believe that you’re holding this position about it, or you said more about this this week. But you did. But when you look at the whole corpus, everything’s a dress. But what what I’ve concluded is that there is an expectation for me to at least do something. So give us more specifically, what is a reasonable expectation for the pastor?

Robert Cunningham
Yes. All right. I already said, I do think that pastors need to study and educate themselves and become skilled public theologians, not necessarily to do the work but to be able to do some of that. Alright, that caveat aside, whether you speak to culture, don’t speak to culture, how you read all that stuff. I you know, I have no expectations for for pastors to be skilled public theologians, and to take on every issue here is the expectation is that you disciple, train and lead your people less in what to say think and do and more about how they think say and do meaning this your job, is to, to dis is to say we are going to be a church and we are going to be a people who does this cultural thing with the preeminence of the Christian ethic, love. I am far more interested in the ethos of our church and his membership in this moment than anything else. I am far more interested about how we are going about this and less interested about what’s your opinion here. What’s your opinion here? What do you say here? What do you say to this? I’m more interested in ethos stuff. And our ethos is going to be love the first Corinthians 13 ethic would say, if you if you win the culture, war and have not loved you’ve lost the culture. We are going to be a church that goes at this with that love ethic and here’s why that’s so important. Love is not dictating the terms of our cultural engagement right now fear is when when Jesus surveyed the culture, he had compassion on them for they were harassed and helpless like sheep without a shepherd. When we survey the culture Are, are freaking out. And that fear that paranoia dictates the terms of our cultural engagement. Here’s what it does. The reason why it says perfect love casts out fear is because fear lead, this is Yoda. What’d he say? Fear leads to, you know, whatever. Fear. It’s interesting that they said fear begins the path to the dark side. And it’s true. Because you inevitably hate what you fear. You inevitably hate what you fear. And so if you fear the culture, if you fear the culture, the culture will become an enemy to be defeated, not a neighbor to love. And so the pastor’s job is to say, we don’t fear we love, whatever we say, whatever we do, we, we love Orlando, all of its people, all of its institutions, its culture, we don’t hate this culture. We love this culture. And if you just equip your people in love, they’ll do cultural engagement, rightly, they will, they’ll do it rightly. So I think that’s the highest calling of the pastor right now is to reclaim love as our highest ethic and renounce the fear.

Mike Aitcheson
That is very helpful. Our people should expect us to lead them in the way of love, no matter what our differences are. Thank you.

Jim Davis
Well, you you talk about we talked a lot about pastors, pastors are tired, you’ve referenced that you’ve referenced I feel like I can sense you referencing some fatigue in the past and your own experience. And I’ve told you about the the exodus that we’ve had in our church. I mean, things are going well now. And we’re very thankful. But but it was hard, you know, and I’m, I’m not a very divisive person. I always am. I feel like we’ve talked about God’s wiring. I’m wired more like a small town mayor who just wants everybody to get along. So I feel like in some ways, it’s extra hard for me to be in that. And I can certainly remember, I think it was late 2020 just praying God, do you want me to be a pastor? I mean, if you don’t, it’s okay, that I give me something else. I don’t want to have to uproot my family. But if you have the right job, come along, I’ll take it. And I know, you know, we see the research out there. You know, there’s been conversations about pastors exiting the ministry and maths I’m not you know, all the data does contradict each other a little bit. But we know that this is a thing out there, between the the pandemic and racial issues in politics. So really, can you speak to that briefly or in detail, whatever you want to whatever you want to do, and then tell us about just the type of leadership that’s going to be necessary to cultivate in order to sustain ourselves in ministry in this moment? And what are ways pastors can care for themselves?

Robert Cunningham
It’s an issue. It really is. I mean, y’all, y’all are doing a series on the D charging. And people leaving the church, you could do a whole series on the D pastorate and people leaving the pastorate. And sadly, sometimes disillusioned with the faithful altogether. I’ll say what Paul, what the Apostle Paul said do not grow weary in doing good. You know, the pastor it in America used to be a pretty cushy job. It really did. I mean, when I when I graduated seminary, you know, particularly the PCA man, they pay you decently they take care of you, you know, it’s just a pretty good career in America for a long time. But it was never meant to be that way. It really wasn’t. That’s an anomaly. Historically speaking, and globally speaking, it’s always been a unique cross. That will one day give way to a unique crown. But right now, it’s a unique cross. So I think we are probably getting a taste of what ministers have faced throughout church history and still face the majority of the world is a really, really, really hard calling. And we are not in this for comfort. I mean, nobody, nobody anymore can say, we’re doing this out of comfort, because it’s across. And so because it’s becoming increasingly what the pastor it has always been historically and again remains globally in many in those cultures and contexts. Because we’re getting a taste of what it’s always been for pastors. I think pastors need to return to what has sustained ordained vocation throughout the centuries. I’m not the first to say this is cliche, but it’s true means of grace, your fellowship with Jesus. If you are healthy spiritually, if you have Jesus by your side, you can walk through anything you really can. So there was a time where you could get pretty lazy with the means of grace and go about your her job, comfortable pastoral life, nine to five breaching sermons on Sunday, there was a time that you could get away with it. You can’t you can’t do ministry anymore without the means of grace. never should have been, but you really can’t now. And so I think we’re returning to what the pastor has always been. So I think we return to what has always sustained pastors throughout the centuries. And that that’s Jesus and, and the ways in which we can fellowship with Him.

Mike Aitcheson
Robert, you are a pastor to pastors. Lastly, you did this for a while you’ve done this for a while, you’ve you’ve obviously given us wise words to consider, okay. You’ve been helping pastors and members to think critically about the world we live in. And you’re, you’re digging deeper into that reality now, but I just want to ask you, as we close, where do you think we are headed? Okay, so we want to ask the sobering question, but we also want to explore is there hope, right, where do you see hope for faithful cultural interaction in this age? So where where do you see us going? Are there some sober things we really need to be considering? And then also, where’s their hope?

Robert Cunningham
Oh, brothers, I’m so hopeful. I mean, a How can I, Jesus Christ is risen from the dead. I mean, how can I not be filled with hope? So first and foremost, I say, I just got done telling you, you know, fear is what needs to be renounced. Love And Hope need to replace it. So renounce your fears, renounced the pervasive paranoia that has no place among those who follow a risen King. Let’s not flatter ourselves, we are not the fate, we are not the first to face a moment of cultural crisis. But since Jesus of Nazareth walked out of that tomb, there has never been a cultural moment that has been able to withstand his resurrection redemption, and it will be for us. I’m incredibly hopeful. Nope. No cultural moment has proven stronger than resurrection. Hope. So yes. I’m hopeful. This isn’t scary. And I listen, if you want to talk, culturally speaking, here’s that here’s the This podcast is going to look a lot different. And in 20 years. There’s an argument to be made. All the stuff that we’re talking about, has reached a tipping point that we’ve reached peak secularity, um, if you look at just if you just look at the numbers, statistically, the United States is basically at a net zero population increase population growth. So we’re not replacing ourselves. And when you look at the actual numbers of the of, of those who are having babies, it’s a dominantly, religious people religious affiliation. They’re the ones producing the next generation. You know, secular is secularity is not reproducing itself as the point I’m trying to make. And then when you look at our growth, you’re looking at immigration, which is predominantly religious, particularly Catholic. So the people who are making babies are religious, and the people who are coming to our country are religious. So in 20 years is not we’re not gonna be talking secularity, I really don’t believe that. I think we’re going to talk about pluralism, I think we’re gonna be talking about what does it look like to safely engage our Asian brothers and sisters? What does it look like to reach this influx of of immigration from Latin America? What does it look like to meet to reach our Muslim brothers and sisters? I think the future is religious plurality and engaging culture that way. So all this stuff we’re talking about outside of technology stuff, I think, I think it’s gonna look really different. So the point I’m trying to make in that is man, this comes and goes, this really does come and go resurrection hope has transcended it throughout the centuries, and they will continue to do so.

Jim Davis
Man, thank you for that. I mean, that that’s what what we need is hope and not just to hope that we can tribe, but the hope that comes from the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as passed down to us through His Word. So that is, that is a great way a great place to land the plane. I just want to say thank you for joining us on this. Thank you for everything you’re doing blessings on your church on Kentucky for Christ every square inch, all that you’re doing. I’m excited to see what the next 20 years looks like for you. So thanks for everything you’re doing. And thank you for joining us today.

Robert Cunningham
Awesome. It’s been a pleasure, guys. Thanks for having me.

Jim Davis
Well, everybody, stay with us. In our next episode, we’re going to be joined by Andrew Wilson and Rebecca McLaughlin, and we’re going to be talking about their non American perspectives on D churching. So stay with us for our next episode. Blessings.