Why Church Leaders Need to Practice Theological Triage

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Matt Smethurst
Good afternoon and welcome to this panel titled theological triage how it can help you lead. My name is Matt Smethurst. I serve as managing editor at the gospel coalition. I’m in the process of planting River City Baptist Church in Richmond, Virginia. And I’m honored to be joined today by some distinguished panelists, but first before I introduce them, I would like to note that this breakout session is sponsored by the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, we we are grateful for their generous support. To help make this session possible. You can learn more about the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary by visiting their booth in the exhibit hall, or [email protected]. All right, now on to the introductions. To my immediate left. We have Dr. Albert Mohler who is the president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Here we have Dane Orlin. You may be aware of him for his runaway best seller, gentle and overweight, not dangerous Joker, Gavin sorry, Gavin ortlund also wrote a great book titled, titled finding the right hills to die on, can you hold that up? You have it with you. So this book, as as well we’ll get to this book is is the inspiration of sorts for this panel. This This book was released by crossway and the gospel coalition one or two years ago. And then finally, we have Afshin Xia fat, the pastor of Providence church in Frisco, Texas. And back to you, Gavin, you’re the pastor of First of Ohio. Okay in California. So welcome. Please welcome these panelists.

Now, we’re gonna start with you. So, OWL wrote the article, Gavin wrote the book, and the book probably wouldn’t exist. If it weren’t for the article, I’m referring to a 2005 piece titled A call for theological triage, and Christian maturity. I’ll give us a little context, what were the circumstances that led you to write that piece and 16 years later? Have you shifted in the way you would frame it or rank any particular issue?

Al Mohler
Thank you, Matt. And it’s an honor to be with Gavin enough sheen. You know, the context is important here. Let me just say that I lived it out. That’s how I came to it. Because I was a young theological student and a doctoral student in a context in which the Southern Baptist controversy, larger controversy in the evangelical world was going on issues of biblical inerrancy issues of biblical authority. And behind that issues of any kind of theological orthodoxy. Did my doctoral work in systematic and historical theology and I’m having to walk through the controversies of the Christian Church, the theological, definitional moments that you simply have to understand. And it came to me that we’re talking about different kinds of theological judgments. And at times, we’re making a theological judgment if you say that Jesus is homeboy OCS rather than homos Eos, then you are not a Christian. That is a violation of, of the gospel of biblical truth. And the Council of Nicaea it’s gonna go one way or the other. I understand that that’s definitional. The doctrine of the Trinity absolutely definitional. The apostle Paul says that the bodily resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ is absolutely essential. And so when I meet someone, and I met them, in my own theological pilgrimage, I was confronted by theological professors who said, the bodily resurrection is not necessary for Christianity. Now, that’s that’s in compatible with scripture. That’s impossible. But then again, many of the sources of theological orthodoxy and theological health that I was really finding, especially in in the Reformation, were people who I thought were completely untrustworthy with babies in terms of infant baptism, and you know, just this, it doesn’t make sense. I wrote an article for first things last year in which I said to understand the Baptist, you have to just understand this, you know, the Reformation was that the Catholic Church wasn’t biblical enough. In the English reformation. It came down to the fact that the Puritans said that the rest of the church is not biblical enough. The separatists said the Puritans by staying in the Church of England weren’t biblical enough. And the Baptist said the Presbyterians, you’re not biblical enough. And then the Baptists have fought with each other since then. But the point is that obviously there are different things happening here. And then I’m living it out as president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in the context of a great battle to achieve theological definition and theological integrity. Well, how far do you go with that? How does that actually work? And then in our confession of faith, the abstract principles, which is derivative of Westminster, and just looking at the entire cradle and confessional history of the church, there’s there, there are very clear lessons here. My mom was a nurse, died just a few weeks ago, lost her heart. She my dad raised me in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, my mom stopped working the day I was born as a nurse. And she went back when my youngest brother went to college, and she became a triage nurse. And I actually was introduced to the concept through her triage being absolutely necessary in the development of modern medicine, and it’s so one of the things is so obvious, you would think it would have always been a part of medical logic, but it wasn’t it was only the Crimean War, when that’s when you have, you know, Florence Nightingale, the birth of modern nursing so much of modern medicine. And so the idea was that soldiers came in from the battlefield and were treated in the order in which they arrived, which meant someone with a broken ankle had priority over someone with a chest wound, then modern nursing was developed out of making decisions. Now, this is a first order patient, this is a second order patient, this is a third order, patient. And immediately that struck me now, by the way, a classicist would say, well, that logic is actually given a lot of attention by Aristotle. In his rhetoric, which is also true, we tend to divide things into triads, we tend to think in three levels, or Hegel, thesis, antithesis, synthesis, somehow, three seems to work in our mentality. And so their son, Holy Spirit, now wouldn’t say the same thing I carefully avoided saying quite that, but I will say that evidently, in the cosmos three is, is in our consciousness of importance. And so all that said, I’m having to live this out every day, I don’t want to talk too long here. But I’m having to live this out every day, I’m having to understand how this works. It was a battlefield concept for me. And I realized there are doctrines number one central the central to Christianity. Without these doctrinal affirmations and beliefs, there is no Christianity. Secondly, you have Christians who do not anathematized each other, but are not in the same churches. And they understand that there are doctrinal issues that are important enough to have separate churches, separate denominations, but not to anathematized each other. And you see this in, in even conversations, of course, among the magisterial reformers, but especially in the second generation, and then in the 17th century. And then there are issues that are not definitional, for any kind of creedal, or confessional system. And those are those third order issues. So that’s basically how it came about. But it was a battlefield metaphor, and I was living it out.

Matt Smethurst
Yeah, and it maps on appropriately because there is a theological battlefield. I just want to reiterate what Al just said at the end, because if you don’t have these kind of three categories, clear in your mind, the conversation will be difficult to track with. So first order issues are what you have to agree on in order to be Christians. Second order issues are what you have to agree on in order to be fellow church members. Third Order issues are things you don’t have to agree on to be members of the same church. And, of course, there’s more nuance that could be added there. But we’re going to speak in terms of those first rate, first rank, second rank and third rank issues. Gavin along with Al you are a church historian. So can you give us one or two examples from church history? Where theological triage was necessary. And of course, we think of the early counsels and creeds hammering out those first order issues. But what about second order or third order issues in church history? Is there an example that comes to mind?

Gavin Ortlund
Yeah, I’ll just think out loud here. I mean, one area we might look to as kind of a tragic failure to unite would be among the Protestants on differences about the Lord’s Supper, and how is Christ present in those elements? How do we practice that even really practical, specific questions? Those have been really divisive. Jonathan Edwards and others have been gotten into trouble over differences on those things. And it at least raises the question of, well, should we be dividing over those things? And if so, which ones and one of the Great criticisms of Protestantism is that we divide too much. And does I do YouTube interactions with Catholic friends? I hear that over and over again. And it’s at least a criticism that we should take to heart and consider, where are we dividing unnecessarily? And that’s the driving heart behind triage. For me, this is a pastoral exercise. This is not theory, you know, this is something that affects whether a pastor gets fired, or whether a church splits. And it affects whether the kingdom of God moves forward more effectively or less, effectively. So it’s it’s very pastorelli significant. You know, in our more recent context, you could think of issues related to the End Times. Many, many conservative evangelical Christians and fundamentalists have divided over, what’s that sequence of events look like? That’s another area where right now in this answer, I’m not trying to answer that. But just flagging for attention. That’s good to think about, where do we need to divide over those things? That’s a healthy exercise for every Christian to wrestle with that question, because and here’s the whole balance of it. We don’t want to downplay the importance of these issues, we don’t want to say, let’s not talk about it. Let’s not follow our convictions about it. It’s extremely important to abide by our conscience, and seek the truth of God’s word. But our unity is also important. That’s a hill to die on. We should never unnecessarily divide. And as I wrote the book, I mean, that’s the thing that I always believed in. But I felt that more deeply in my heart. That actually, you know, think of First Corinthians eight, Paul says, I’ll never eat meat again, if it causes my brother to stumble. And I know eating meat is a more specific issue. But the heart behind a statement like that is something to really meditate upon and ask the Lord to give us that heart. Am I willing to make a major sacrifice for the sake of not causing someone else to stumble? It seems to me that’s the kind of heart that is what will help triage go well.

Matt Smethurst
Not only is this issue intensely pastoral, but it’s even intensely personal AF sheen. How does theological triage land on you and kind of even a visceral way?

Afshin Ziafat
Yeah, I mean, for me, when you think of are there matters of first importance, I would say, yes, the, the entirety of my adult life is testimony to that reality. Because I grew up in a Muslim home, and my dad was a very prominent Muslim and became a Christian because I read the New Testament at 17, came to faith in Christ hid it from my dad, my father found out and made me choose between him, and Jesus, he said, if you’re going to be a follower of Jesus, you cannot be my son. And so I chose Jesus and my dad, disowns, me. And I go upstairs to my room. And I turn immediately to Matthew 10, where Jesus says, Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will acknowledge Him for my father in heaven, whoever disowns me, I’ll disown him. And then it goes on to say, Do not suppose I’ve come to bring peace to the earth. I didn’t come marine peace, but a sword, for I’ve come to turn a man against his father. So there are matters of first importance that are worth dividing over Jesus is the dividing light. This is judgment. John three says that light is shone into the world, those who love their evil deeds stay in the dark, those who come into the light come to show that their works are done in God. Right. So the light divides, even households. So I’ve had my father passed away this past summer. You know, I, the last 30 years of his life, I had an estranged relationship with Him. What a what a shame if there aren’t matters of first importance that I did that, but there is there are some things worth dying for. And there are some things worth divining over. And my hope is that when his mind was giving way to Alzheimer’s, and I got to share the gospel with him over and over again that any watch my life, that maybe he came to faith in Christ, you know, and so yeah, it’s very personal for me, I think we do have to think about there are some things that are worth dividing over. And then as a pastor, though, me and my fellow elders, we’ve had to really navigate. How do we teach our people to be discerning over the matters of first importance in the matters of second importance, the matters the third importance, because in our church, always, people have a belief on matters of third importance that you said we can coexist, even in the same church but disagree, but they for some reason, think it is first important that they want to divide over it. And so we have to do this right at the outset. I want to just really quickly read what we do in our membership class, we we teach this idea of triage in our membership class, and it’s going to be this part of our membership books really short. Our philosophy and teaching theology is two handed in one hand, we hold some doctrines in a tight fist, in order to protect the purity. These orthodox doctrines, which are very critical, as outlined in the provenance or statement of faith are essential to membership. Other doctrines are held in an open and an open. And in order to promote church unity and allow for diversity. All of our doctrine will be informed by scripture, clear in content and application and humble in its delivery. And I think that’s what we aim for, you know, to teach them that, look, there are some things and we then we walk through what those things are. That’s the rest of the membership class, with things we hold tightly. So yes, I’ve had to divide over things and teach people what things not to divide over.

Matt Smethurst
Yeah, well, we’ll spend more time exploring some second and third order issues. But sticking with first order for now, is there a distinction between what one must believe in order to be saved? And what one must not deny? And why? If there is, does that distinction matter?

Gavin Ortlund
I’ll go first. So if I make a mistake, you guys can correct me here. But I think we have to affirm a distinction like that. And in the book, I go through a couple of distinctions like that actually, just think of a child who comes to know Christ, we can’t expect the same level of awareness and articulation in such a circumstance as we would someone who’s more developed in their thinking. So yeah, if someone denies a doctrine that that shows you that there’s a more self conscious awareness of what the doctrine is, Otherwise, they wouldn’t be denying it. But if someone simply has not yet affirmed something, it may be that their thinking is muddled about that. And they’ve just not arrived at personal clarity about that. Or they may be ignorant of it yet. Now, there may be some things that you’d say, well, they have to do both. And I think there are, but there may be other things in the first strength category. I mean, there’s lots of doctrines that don’t fit neatly. You know, this is one thing that’s I think, is helpful. As soon as we get these three buckets, you want to just put every doctrine in a bucket case closed, no more discussion about it, but it’s very nuanced. And two second rank issues can be very different. One from another in how they play out, or there can be practical, real life nuances and how it flushes out. So yeah, I mean, think of a doctrine like Christ’s intercession. That’s been one of the most edifying doctrines for me to study the fact that Christ is interceding for us. If someone says, Well, what is that first rank, second rank or third rank? Well, if someone denies that, we’ve got a major problem on our hands, but I was a Christian for, I don’t know, 15 years before I really thought about it that much. And I’m embarrassed by that.

Matt Smethurst
As your who’s your dad? Yeah.

Gavin Ortlund
Dane hadn’t written gentle by lowly yet. So I hadn’t quite got there. But yeah, so I think just practically, for just wisdom in real life scenarios, we have to accept distinctions like that, it seems to me,

Afshin Ziafat
and just so I can jump in before Dr. Mohler again corrects this. So by the way, I have I fully embrace that the reason I’m on this panel is just to raise the overall physical beauty of this panel. That’s why I’m here. So even though I might lower the, the intelligence now, but on the other hand, for instance, a Muslim who becomes a Christian, there are many people who say, well, as long as they, you know, believe that Jesus died on the cross, you know, for their sins, or whatever, but maybe they don’t believe in the deity of God of Christ. scuze me, they’ll get to that. So for me, I would say, Now, you kind of have to believe that too. You know what I mean? You can’t, you can’t, you can’t divide it. They’re like, You have to believe in the deed, the deity of Christ, the incarnation of Christ, the perfect life of Christ, the death, burial resurrection of Christ. And I think so there are some but I agree with you that even all of us would say there are parts of our theology that when we first became a Christian, we didn’t fully understand. And so we do have to leave room for a distinction between that being saved and having a full understanding of that salvation.

Matt Smethurst
Yeah, now you have a phrase in the article and I’ve heard you use it in other contexts where I think you’re getting at some of this nuanced, first order doctrines you right, represent the most fundamental truths of the Christian faith. In a denial of these doctrines, represents nothing less than an eventual denial of Christianity itself. Why did you include eventual denial?

Al Mohler
If you look at the early church, Post New Testament, there’s evidence in the New Testament, we can talk about that separately. But Post New Testament, the most interesting material is the catechetical instruction in this light. So you’re, you’re teaching the catechumens, the new believers, what Christianity is, how to be Christians, and catechetical instruction, they understand that you have someone who comes to faith in Christ, and this is Gavin said, they don’t know other than what they knew that brought them to Christ. And then there must be enough there to be a Christian, at least as the Apostle Paul says, just to take Romans chapter 10, must profess with your lips that Jesus Christ is Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead there. And there are other formulas in the New Testament. So there’s a certain amount of minimal gospel that must be known and believed and affirmed and professed.

Matt Smethurst
From inclusiveness, for instance, absolutely.

Al Mohler
In order to and by the way, one of the first things the early church begins to, which we might not think of, but we should is the fact that you can’t just start with Jesus, you have to start with the Triune God. And in other words, this, this can’t be a Manichaean kind of thing where you have Jesus coming in to undo the bad material. You know, it’s it’s a situation in which you have to know your context in which people have to understand what you’re saying, when you say that. God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him might not perish but have everlasting life. But just to say that catechism, that catechetical material, it’s to produce a mature believer. And all along the way, you have someone like Augustine, who will say, you work with them, you confront them with the truth, you teach them, you teach them patiently you love them, you seek to love them as they will love Christ, and they will love His truth. But the thing to watch out for is when someone in that catechetical processes, I do not believe this. And tonight, Tom Schreiner and I are going to discuss at the late night Southern Seminary event, the warning passages in Hebrews. I think there’s some interconnectivity or there are people who appear to be believers. And they are not yet confronted with a doctrine Central and essential to Christianity. If in that process of catechetical instruction, they rejected a central doctrine, then they’re not a believer. And so the early church had an exit ramp, you know, even at that point, that’s why they did not understand someone to be Christian until the end of the catechetical process. When when you think about this, there are doctrine Central is central to Christianity, how much of that must you know to be a Christian? Good question. catechetical. Question, front end question. But what happens when there’s denial, and that’s where the church doesn’t call a new believer a heretic for not being able to define certain doctrinal issues. But the church does call someone a heretic, who does deny doctrine Central and essential to Christianity. So I hope that distinction is helpful, you know, you ignorance is not heresy.

Afshin Ziafat
The maybe the positive ways, if they truly are saved, they will, as they as they grow, they will affirm those and evidence their salvation by affirming those as they grow in their faith.

Al Mohler
Yes, the dark side to that, we would say, is that the instinct that many of these catechetical process has tried to put in place was trust the church. In other words, that’s how you end up with magisterial authority. And so you trust the church. There’s a sense in which we do want to say trust the church, but test everything by the scriptures.

Matt Smethurst
Yeah, and a phrase that is common today you hear gospel issue, this is a gospel issue. That’s a gospel issue I would commend familiar EOS article that Don Carson wrote a few years ago, titled What is a gospel issue? And Gavin, I thought you had a helpful section in your book where you speak of various kinds of gospel issues because some issues directly threaten the gospel, they directly undermine it. Other doctrines are protecting the gospel. Other doctrines are clarifying the gospel. So could you kind of help us understand how various doctrines might touch on and relate to the gospel in different ways?

Gavin Ortlund
I literally cannot remember this part of the book. So I’d happy to think about it. But I, I can’t think of what you’re actually referring to there. But the one thing that your question triggered for me is issues of marriage. And in what sense is our definition of marriage a gospel issue. And we might say that it does not contribute to the gospel materially in the way that something like justification by faith alone does. But on the other hand, there’s all sorts of practical real life, sort of common sense deductions that you have to make as you’re doing triage. And marriage historically has been understood to be a picture of the gospel. Marriage is not just something that is sort of arbitrarily set at creation. But it has a deeper spiritual significance. So the way the church historically interpreted the Book of Song of Songs, was not a totally crazy instinct, people are drawing a correlation there that at least has some kind of basic basis. And you see that in Ephesians, five, when Paul says, I’m referring to Christ in the church. So there’s all different kinds of ways that something can be a gospel issue. I think Don Carson’s or treatment of that is really helpful. I think the thing I do just want to flag at kind of the basic orienting level here is, don’t just think in terms of what’s materially a part of the gospel, look at the whole kind of real life practical consequences of an issue. And that will just open up the categories a little bit. I need to reread the book and see what you’re talking about, though.

Matt Smethurst
I’ve seen as a pastor on the ground, what’s an example in your ministry of when you have needed to engage with theological triage in order to lead your people?

Afshin Ziafat
Yeah, I mean, it’s this past year has been has been that we’re referring to? Where have you been? Yeah, it just, you know, we had a conversation of stage a little while ago, but that and I love that your book is primarily focusing on the theological triage that needs to take place. And I think that is of utmost importance. But there are for us, it’s been as elders, a lot of the cultural issues on the ground that we’ve had to learn how to triage, if you will, and when to address things, when when are they of such importance that they need to be addressed? And when are they not of such importance? You know, and obviously, from everything from George Floyd and the race, unrest in the in the land, of course, politics, pandemic masks, I mean, we’ve been, we have to this year, I feel like I’ve had to become a scientist, a politician, as well as a pastor. And, and it’s just been difficult for us to lead our people through that. And, you know, I love Second Corinthians, one that Paul talks about, the testimony of my boasting is my conscience is that I behave with simplicity and godly sincerity, that we could say, we sincerely sought scripture and sought the counsel of what wise counsel of other pastors that we we believe in and agree with, and made a decision that we thought was honoring the Christ and, and good for you. Because, you know, what I’ve learned is, it’s easy in leadership, Washington say, easy, it’s easier in leadership to choose right over wrong. It’s really hard to choose to do something when there is no right, clearly, you know, for instance, masks, when, where, how long, all of those issues, you know, and especially with a virus that no one really even knows about. And so for us, it’s been, you know, having to learn how to teach our people that man, we’re trying to do the best, honoring God decision, and making that decision, knowing immediately that there’s going to be a lot of people in your church that are going to be upset with you, you know, and for instance, one more real quick like, for we did, we did a call for prayer and fasting when the DC riots happened. And so some people were upset. In fact, a person left our church because I didn’t call for a prayer and fasting after the riots that happened earlier in the summer, even though we did condemn those riots, you know, but it’s just so it’s just been so hard to teach our people, triaging and in the cultural, so

Gavin Ortlund
just Just a quick comment in agreement with that, and then, but, yeah, pastoring through 2020. If we didn’t already feel the need for this topic, I think most pastors I know are pretty weary. Many are discouraged. And I think if we were better as the Church of Jesus Christ at doing theological triage, I don’t think we’d be as weary I mean, we I think we’d still be weary right now, but I don’t think it’d be as weary conversation I often have with people when we’re talking about something Me, and opinions are so polarized on everything right now. And it seems like it’s getting worse is let’s think of Galatians. One. That’s one theological culture. That’s one theological mentality and attitude. I like to talk about theological culture and mentality, not just doctrines. Think of Romans 14, that’s another very different. Okay, where on the spectrum of those two is this issue, whatever we’re talking and just highlighting for people just putting that on the map that, oh, there’s a spectrum of different theological mentalities about different issues, and letting them do the homework on it and think about it. Sometimes that can be very pastoral, really fruitful.

Al Mohler
I’ve really been helped, since my entire Christian life by conversation with other Christians, and on this issue, some very helpful conversations. And sometimes the conversations aren’t about theological triage or aren’t aren’t, aren’t about my arguments or, or definitions. They’re just they clearly apply. So I hope he wouldn’t mind me saying this. But I was on a conversation with John Piper, some time, as I was thinking these things through. And John was actually leading the devotional and a group in which we were just getting ready to have a meeting. And John led the devotional, and he talked about the sins that will send you to hell. And Christian toleration of sins that will send you to hell, and immediately struck me even as he was sharing that devotional, that’s a different issue, but absolutely, equally essential to the idea of theological triage, because you can be absolutely right on all of these affirmations, you can affirm everything that must be affirmed. You can avoid denying anything that must be denied, and go to hell. There’s a different way you have to look at this, if you hate your brother, if you give yourself to lust, if you are, if you are a racist, then according to Scripture, the and there are sins that people who have professed faith in Christ abide in and give themselves to, and thus bring discredit upon the faith and send themselves to hell. I think the Apostle Paul talks about this first Corinthians chapter five. And so that in other words, there are issues that don’t fit here in the same way, but are of equal importance and want you to hear me say that they’re Of equal importance in terms of Heaven and Hell. Lust just just listed. Hopefully, that’s not political here at this moment. Okay, so but Last, we’ll send you to hell. And if you give yourself to it, that doesn’t allow us doesn’t fit as a first or second or third order issue. That’s because obviously, you’d have to have a pastoral conversation to know what you’re talking about. So I just I hope that’s helpful, distancing, that you can’t make this fit everything you’re going to confront in ministry, or in theology, or in the Christian life. But just to give an illustration, because I was asked this just this morning. So just a quick set of, you know, so what are we talking about here? They’re doctrinal. It’s a way of weighing doctrinal statements. And I want us to turn first to Scripture, but I do want us to look at the the wisdom of the Church throughout the ages. And one of the ways we do that is looking at the creeds and confessions as at least helpful to know that in 325 AD, the church had to decide between Athanasius and arias, and I do not believe they were making a mountain out of a molehill. I do believe that our salvation depends upon whether Christ was of similar substance with the father or of the same substance. And then you see how the whole Nicean Constantinopolitan orthodoxy emerges in that I think the Reformation was not a disagreement. I believe that justification by faith alone, is the gospel. Second order issues mean, we really don’t anathematized each other. And I’m not saying that just like it’s a little arcane issue. That was the issue at Nicaea. And that was the the issue in the Reformation. There were mutual, anathemas that were issued, you are not Christians. Trent still stands, by the way, still stating that we are not Christians. And the Protestant confessions still stand. This is a dividing issue. We know who a Christian is. But even among the magisterial reformers, you go to the Marburg colloquy and you understand what happened there. They did not anathematize each other as not Christians. They did say that the other churches that were in disagreement with them, Luther was upset of Blitzer and others. Your churches wrongly ordered it is not a rightly ordered church. That’s why you have denominations. I was very helped as a seminary student by Sidney Meads definition of denomination. I mean, very liberal American church historian, but he makes it a mathematical formula, doctrinal conviction plus religious liberty equals denominations. That’s it. If you believe that baptism is this and that church membership is this then if you have religious liberty, you can establish your church on that if you believe that the Eucharist is this and I believe the Lord’s Supper is that then you can have churches you don’t anathematize each other. But but you’re in different churches, the unity of the church, then I would say your spiritual and theological in the Gospel. My some of my best friends on planet Earth are Presbyterians, we are in the same church, not in the same congregation. And then their third order issues. And so this is what might be helpful. I’ve just as a as a theologian, what’s the third order issue? The origin of the soul? Are you a creationist or a traditionalist? Have you even thought about it? Are you worried about it? We can have a pastoral theological conversation. Is it irrelevant? Of course not. But there isn’t a single creed or confession in the history of Christianity that has addressed it. Its I mean, there are ramifications of either one, you can you can argue this, this will have an effect a material effect on the theological system, but not enough that any church to my knowledge has ever included it in a creed or confession, or a binding statement. So evidently, you can have full harmony, that in danger is neither the unity of the church or the integrity of the gospel. And I agree with Gavin, I think the eschatological issues are the most proximate in dealing with this. One last issue, I was really helped by Carl Henry and many points mentor to me in my life. And, you know, Henry was very helpful in this kind of thing by simply pointing out that, as as you’re thinking about these issues, and first and second and third order issues, this is what they have angelical movement really began trying to struggle about deciding that fundamentalism to use my system does, or our system will just say theological triage fundamentalisms problem is, everything’s a first order issue. Protestant liberalism’s problem is that everything’s a third order issue. And that’s why you had an evangelical movement come out of both liberalism and fundamentalism, saying there has to be a more responsible way of ranking this.

Gavin Ortlund
She’s gonna say in one or two sentences that what I’ll just said about the tendencies there toward a fundamentalism or toward liberalism, where everything’s first order, everything’s sorted over, it’s been helpful to me to reflect upon most of us have a leaning, or a temptation. And it’s helpful to know what’s my leaning, and then be especially alert to because all of us will tend naturally according to the flesh to veer into one. And we’ll be horrified by what those people over there are doing. And we won’t be as sensitive to the dangers on this side. And it’s humbling and helpful to ask the Holy Spirit to show me helped me to see the errors that I’m naturally less sensitive to.

Afshin Ziafat
And I would just say real quick, that just to piggyback on that, not just yourself, but then, as a leader, to be able to read the your context, your church, what’s your church’s leaning, because my church and I love that this is true of my churches, we’re kind of very big on theological, doctrinal accuracy and purity. And we’re known in our region as being the church, that man, they really preach the Word of God, and they hold those strong doctrines. So I love that but because of that, are leaning, I often say it’s kind of like, if you drive in a car, with that’s kind of off alignment, you don’t necessarily just push it this way, you know, the end of the ditch, but you kind of hold against it going into the ditch this way that it naturally wants to go into that makes sense. So for me, for our church, it’s we’re going to tend towards really holding on to the head and losing some of the heart, you know, if I’m, if I don’t keep that there, but the Scripture is clear. I mean, we got to hold on truth and love. You know, and Jesus, by the way, talked about triage, he said, there are the weightier matters of the law, himself. And he said, those weightier matters of justice and mercy and things like that. So, I think, you know, if you take truth out of love, and you just love and everything’s a third order issue, then you’re not actually loving people. And if you take love out of truth, and you’re just beating people up over the head, then you you’re actually no longer loving them. And so to keep that balance as a leader and knowing where your church tends to, and again, not to go towards liberalism, right but to hold the line and make sure we don’t lose the heart is kind of the role of a leader.

Matt Smethurst
And I think that in the age of social media and the age of outrage, it is very tempting for ordinary pastors to be so dialed in to the twists and turns of the latest Twitter controversy, that they are inclined to pastor try to pastor the world from their Twitter account rather than the actual sheep for whom they will give an account, you will give an account for your flock, not your followers and the temptation to tweet that.

Afshin Ziafat
That’s That’s seriously a Mic drop. I’m serious. That is so true. It’s like that. It’s like almost I wonder, are you pastoring? Is your pastor out there? Or are you pastoring people who really struggle with these issues?

Matt Smethurst
So here’s the danger. I like how Gavin mentioned, the flesh. I mean, we all in our self regard, are gonna be inclined to be more vocal about some things perhaps than we should and quieter about other things than perhaps we should. And the danger, I think, for pastors is to denounce to their congregation, the sins that their congregation are not struggling with, as a way to avoid addressing those that your congregation is so no, your flock and owl mentioned earlier, theological liberals and fundamentalists, I like how in your book you used similar language of doctrinal minimalists and doctrinal sectarians everything’s a everything’s a Romans 14 issue for doctrinal minimum minimalists. Everything’s a Galatians one issue for doctrinal separatists. And so, Gavin, we only have a couple minutes left, how does you know, as sheen mentioned, truth and love. And of course, that’s, that’s not the kind of thing we’re, we’re trying to get in the middle of the two and have a little bit of truth and a little bit of love. Anything called Love that is not informed by truth is unworthy of the name love. So, but what is the significance, Gavin, of love, in particular, the greatest of these virtues, when it comes to the topic of theological triage.

Gavin Ortlund
It seems to me that that should be the driving motivation. We’re not sometimes we might think of this topic is a matter of being right, or good, or checking off the boxes correctly. But that’s not what it’s about. This is about when we get to the end of our life, a part of the well done good and faithful servant we all want to hear will be how we do these things. This is extremely practical. And basic, I just want to say one thing on the truth and love. dichotomy there. When we notice this, hopefully a word of hope in the way we we all will struggle with this at times. But when we notice, we’re being too sectarian, and we’re fighting too much, whether it be cultural issues or doctrinal issues, or whatever. It’s helpful to ask is this becoming a form of self justification? Because sometimes we can actually find our identity in our theology and in our secondary doctrines, and even tertiary doctrines. And so the good news for that is, the happy news is, we can just go back to Jesus and say, You alone are my rightness You are what makes me okay? And find our identity in the Gospel. Again, that doesn’t mean we don’t hold those secondary convictions and tertiary convictions firmly. But there’s such a difference when you’re not finding your identity in them. When you don’t feel better to others. Because of them, you don’t feel superior to others. So that’s just a gospel heart check. That’s helpful for us to regularly make,

Afshin Ziafat
if I may, I mean, first Timothy, one, five, the purpose of the commandment is that love would issue forth from a sincere heart sincere faith. So we had hope this is helpful. It’s been helpful for me there was a guy on our staff who was a Marine, he’s pastoring, a church now. And he said, when he was in the Marines, he said, Man, it was amazing how much unity there was. In my in my group. He said, because we had a shared identity, and a shared mission. And everything else kind of went away, like our ethnic background, or our you know, socio economic background, everything went away, because we were so rooted in our identity. And that goes to the first order stuff like for us as Christians, our identity is that we believe that we’re saved by grace through faith in Christ alone. And for him, he said, Men, I knew that this is my brother who went through boot camp with me, you know, and we’re Marines in that, you know, and then secondly, he said, Man, I was in the Marines during the war. And so that was always in our mind. We’re at war together. We don’t have time to fight over second. Very third issues. So it’s just been helpful for me to be able to keep our church aligned on what is our identity? What is this first order things? And then what is our mission? What is our purpose?

Matt Smethurst
Last comment now?

Al Mohler
Yeah, we inevitably, even rightly quoting Scriptures speak of speaking the truth in love. But, you know, interestingly, if you were to talk to Thomas as an Aquinas, and you were to talk to say the reformed orthodox theologians of the 17th century in the Netherlands, they would have agreed upon this, and that is the fact that basic Christian theism includes the fact that God is indivisible. And the unity that transcendentals means that the good the beautiful and the true are actually the same, because it is God who was the good it is God who alone is beautiful, does God alone who is true? And so the problem is that we are finite creatures. And so we’re constantly divisible. So we speak about the attributes of God that God, God is not his attributes added up together. God is God. Thankfully, he loves us enough to reveal Himself to us. And He reveals Himself to us we are divisible. We got to have this part. And this part, this part because of our the finitude of our understandings, we have to speak about God’s righteousness in his in his omnipotent truth and love are actually the same thing. Because they to our God, God is true, God is love. And so there is nothing that is actually true, that is not equally love. And there’s nothing that is love that is not equally true. But that can become a Hallmark card, unless we remember that we are, we are finite, and we are divisible. And we’ve got to work hard to put together. What in God is absolutely unified. So what God has joined together, let no man put asunder. But in our finitude and in our sinfulness, we have to work hard at making certain that we are speaking the truth in love.

Matt Smethurst
Just by way of reminder, as we conclude, Gavin’s book, finding the right hills to die on would be an excellent resource for you to go through with your church leadership team. I would also commend to you Trevin wax his new book, which is one of the giveaways here at the conference, multi directional leadership, that’s also going to be mapping on to these conversations and helping you be faithfully versatile in a polarized age. Gavin, will you close us in prayer?

Gavin Ortlund
Father, thank you so much for gathering us here. It is such a refreshing encouragement to gather together and be with other like minded believers who want to serve you and please you and everything that we do. Lord, we know that we need wisdom from you. We cannot supply all of the answers on our own. And the moment we start to think that we’ve got this topic figured out, we’re into or into trouble, we need your moment by moment help. So I pray for each person here in this room, and also watching right now by video, especially for pastors who are here. Maybe they’re facing real life decisions and situations that are very relevant to this topic. Would you give them wisdom? And would you give them help and encouragement? And Lord, we thank You for Your Holy Spirit who is with us, guiding us. We thank you for Jesus and His sacrifice for us and the hope we have in his name. We pray in His name, amen.

Matt Smethurst
Amen. Thank you for joining us.