Top Theology Stories of 2022

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Collin Hansen
Welcome to a special edition of gospel bound featuring, let’s talk. I’m Collin Hansen. I’m the host of gospel bound. And I’m joined by my good friend and colleague, Melissa Kruger, one of the hosts of Let’s Talk, you’re listening to a bonus season and episode. And we wanted to take you behind the scenes look back on the big stories and trends of the year of our Lord 2022. And thank you for listening and encouraging us in this work.

Melissa Kruger
Hey, Colin, Hey, good to be back.

Collin Hansen
It was fun last year, I don’t think a lot of people realize the episode last year that we recorded together the most downloaded ever in the history of gospel bound. I don’t think that’s a coincidence. It’s all he told you, Melissa?

Melissa Kruger
If Yeah, oh, no, if people could discuss how much we talked together. We could just record our conversations all the time. This is basically what it is. It’s true. Holiday, Melissa, regular conversation. But it’s super fun to be here. And a lot has happened since our last time together. And we’ll jump in and you’ve written a great article, top 10 theological stories for this year. I mean, there’s certain things I don’t think when I was looking at your article, I was like, Wow, a year ago, we never could have imagined some of these things. And we’ll talk about those in a minute. But you have something I’m super excited about coming out in the next year. Can you tell us about the project that you’ve been working on?

Collin Hansen
Well, there it is. Thanks. For anyone

Melissa Kruger
watching the video.

Collin Hansen
There it is. Timothy Keller has spiritual and intellectual formation. You know, as I was, as I was working on this book, Melissa, I thought about the question that you get asked a lot as an author, how long have you been doing this? And I thought, well, in some ways, three years really busily. But then, in many ways, for 12 years, 1512 years working with the gospel Coalition, which Tim had co founded 15 years since I’ve known Tim, the beginning of the gospel coalition when I was still working at Christianity today, but in a lot of ways, been working on on this project for for 20 years since I’ve been been in journalism and studying evangelical history. And so I mean, I’m eager for people to see this book. I may even have copies early January, February 7 Is the pub date on the book. I think a lot of people are going to assume, Melissa, that it’s a bit it’s a biography. And it is in some ways, but it’s not like a traditional biography. First of all, Tim’s still around, and he’s doing great work. The latest on his, and his health has been very positive with his pancreatic cancer diagnosis. A second is not a critical biography. Because I’m close with Tim. I admire Tim, I appreciate Tim, I work with Tim. And so and so it’s not it’s not that kind of thing. It’s also not primarily a narrative of his of his life. Tim does not love to speak about himself. That’s one of the reasons I think people are going to find the book to be so fascinating. I had a friend, read the first three chapters, which by the way, if you preorder the book, go to Timothy Keller, book.com give us that pre learn information, we will send you the first three chapters of the book right now you can listen right now, we’ll send you a bunch of other bonus content. In fact, a list that Tim put together the most important books written in his lifetime, not by him by other people. And I also put together a list of the top books that will help you to understand Tim, because that’s a really a lot of what the book is focused on. But anyway, I had a I had a friend who started to read the first three chapters. And she made a comment about not not knowing a lot about Tim’s home life growing up. And well, it wasn’t Tim who talked to me about that. It was Tim sister who talked with me about that. And that’s really what the book is. A lot of it’s talking with the best man at Tim’s Tim and Kathy’s wedding, who also was Tim’s best friend in college, who was who was there the night that Tim became a Christian. He had been living this kind of double life as he was exploring his faith and trying to figure things out. This guy’s birthday was when he wakes up and Tim is lying like on the floor at the foot of the bed. His let he’s just been transformed physically, you could tell they’ve been transformed by the Holy Spirit. So just talking with people like that, or just there’s a lot of behind the scenes stuff that I was able to get. Thanks to the permission, Tim and Kathy gave, not just to me, but to all of their friends to talk to me. So in that sense, you, you and I did do many hours of interviews with Tim. But I think what I like about the project so much, Melissa is that it was based off talking with other people about Tim and Kathy, who as you know, is a powerhouse unto herself.

Melissa Kruger
I what I love about that is it seems to embody the whole notion of self forgetfulness that we all love from Tim Keller, and yeah, I mean, and so it’s almost like you had to ask other people because he’s just not thinking about himself all the time, and doesn’t want to talk about what he thinks about everything. And so I kind of love that that’s part of this book that you had to actually go to other sources. I

Collin Hansen
was doing the audio book, and there’s a very emotional part of the book, where we learned about Tim’s he had a younger sister has a younger sister, and had a younger brother, who died in the 1990s 1998 and died of AIDS. And that’s a very emotional part. Just even reading through the book. And so there’ll be a lot that people will learn not just about Tim and Kathy’s lives. I love about Kathy that she was one of the last people to correspond with CS Lewis, as a preteen, like I said, she’s a powerhouse unto herself, so eager, that’ll be a fun thing, not quite ready for Christmas, unless you want to go ahead and preorder that book and tell people what’s going to be coming to them in in early February, Lord willing, so thanks to my friends at Zondervan reflective for all their great work on that. Let’s say you’re always up to a lot. I would love to know how many years in a row, you’ve published a book at this point, have a lot of different varieties, you’re always you’ve got one out, you’ve got one that you’re thinking about, you’ve got one that you’re you know, long, just kind of stewing around in your head. And we’ll talk about several of those. But I want to talk about a couple things in particular, looking back on this last year, one a book, his grace is enough, another one in your children’s books. And then just love to hear more about, as you think back to the gospel coalition Women’s Conference in 2022, to some of your some of your favorite memories and what you’ve seen the Lord do through that book. And through that event.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, yeah, they came out the same month. You know, it feels like all women’s books now come out. Even yours.

Collin Hansen
Think about our conference that you put in. Absolutely, yeah,

Melissa Kruger
exactly. Exactly. And the conference was really amazing. I’m so thankful. I mean, to get to see all these women gathered around God’s word. Just getting to sing together. It’s something that’s really difficult to describe how wonderful it is, it feels like a little foretastes. I know people say this all the time, a little foretaste of heaven. And when we’re first,

Collin Hansen
so first in person, normal women’s gathering since 2018, correct?

Melissa Kruger
Yes, there were no mask. That was great. There were no awkward dismissals, because we had to dismiss everyone and like,

Collin Hansen
Oh, I forgot about that with all the different lights that would flash up front to tell you what you can dismiss.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, um, so I’m super, it was just great. Yeah. What I love about it is I have friends from kind of my real life in Charlotte, who were there. And then I have friends from all over the country who we’ve gotten to know through ministry connections, and it’s it’s pretty beautiful to get to see and

Collin Hansen
why it’s the taste of heaven. Right? Yes. Because it’s so many of those friends from so many different walks of life. It’s that kind of spiritual reunion.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah. And the in the, in the main event is Jesus. Yeah. I mean, that’s what I love. It’s we it’s a conference that really we try to focus on God’s word, not not the, the people are there delivering it up and in certain ways, but it’s really, let’s look at Jesus in a new way. And what I loved about this conference, we’re in the Old Testament, but always looking at Jesus, how is he the rock from which the water poured out? You know, how is he symbolizing the Ark of our salvation, you all of these images that we have in the Old Testament that actually point us to cry. So we ended with that I love the story of David Mephibosheth. And this beautiful invitation to the kings table. And so it was great. They were saying there was so many fun things. It wasn’t just about remembering our joy. We got to do this project about sharing the joy. And we just found out we were just talking a few minutes ago on our team call about a new Ukrainian and Russian website that came out of that conference to bring articles and gospel messages to people all over the world. So I mean, it’s amazing. It’s amazing what we get to do. I’m pretty thankful about that.

Collin Hansen
What about the book children’s book?

Melissa Kruger
Oh, yeah. And then I’m excited I had a new kid’s book come out called His grace is enough. And honestly, I have to say, I love these little kids book with a special place in my heart. This one is really written, I’ve been writing kids books as my kids have actually been aging. And so this one is trying to get the message of, of what grace is to young kids. So I’m hoping I’m picturing them in a college dorm room, maybe thinking, I don’t know if his grace is enough for me. I’ve done I’ve made all the wrong choices. I’ve done all the things that people warned me not to do. And now I find my place myself in the pit of my own making. And I just wanted to write a book that hopefully, I hoped would ring in their minds when they’re too, and come back, maybe when they’re 22, to remind them that His grace is enough. It’s so big and so free, his grace is enough for both you and for me. So it was like it was that, that that desire to write children’s books that will ring in our hearts when we’re older. That’s my, that’s my hope and to give parents words, to know how to talk about race, it’s kind of a hard concept. Does that mean that you’re not going to get in trouble if you do wrong things, my house, you know, and so you try to help kids get an understanding of what race is, and start those conversations between parents and kids. But it’s a real joy to get to do so that was, that was some of the stuff that came out in our personal lives in 2022. But let’s move in to the top 10 theological stories of 2022. There’s an article at TGC on this that everybody can go access, I highly encourage you to go read it. It’s excellent. It really is interesting to look back at the past year and think about it in terms of what God is doing in the world. But I want to start with really looking at the world and some difficult stories that have happened in the past year that honestly, I don’t think we could have imagined. You know, even when we look back that this first one, especially this SBC report that came out, I was pretty shocked by it. I you know, I don’t know how you felt about it. I was shocked. Yeah, I was shocked by the report. I guess that’s the best way to say it, and the cover up and all the things that had happened in this past year. So choose your two of your top 10 stories deal with basically actual physical abuse, I mean, sexual abuse in the church and spiritual abuse in the church. So as you did these stories and thought about this year, you know, how do we as believers in the pew respond wisely, and biblically, when we hear of these church leaders maybe failing to walk in a manner worthy of the gospel? You know, I mean, there’s this exposure that happens. But we’re sitting in the pew and we hear these stories, and how are you seeing when the church at large respond to these stories? How do we as individuals in the pew respond to these stories?

Collin Hansen
You know, Melissa, think about the the mass shootings, which is another one of my top 10 article, top 10 theology stories of this last year. And I think we we recognize that we, in some ways, we do have more mass shootings, there’s also more police brutality in some ways, we just our perception of it. But so much of these things, is filtered through our now exposure to these things in new ways. I don’t think Melissa, we would could really afford to be naive right now, about how much these things have happened in the past. How many women have suffered in small and large and ultimate ways from abuse how many children have been abused, that this is not something that’s unique to the Southern Baptist Convention or to the Roman Catholic church or to the Boy Scouts or to whoever but a lot of it was simply not known. It was not exposed there were not places for articles to be written and podcast to be recorded and Twitter threads to have been published from from victims and invoices that had been overlooked and ignored and, and shut out by gatekeepers in the past. We, we know there have always been abusive pastors. But there haven’t necessarily been the means to be able to expose them. The investigations to be able to look into them the the places where people could turn to say, Oh, wow, I didn’t realize I didn’t realize what was happening or that I wasn’t the only one It’s been other people, as well. And so with our colleague, Sarah Zylstra, she and I work a lot together on positive stories. But in this last year, we looked on looked at women and young women, especially in social media, we’re looking at young men now in video games. And when it comes back to so often, Melissa is, we’re just living out the consequences of the Internet revolution. And the Internet revolution applied to abuse is that I don’t, or abuse or especially police brutality, I don’t know that we necessarily have more of it. Now, in some ways, we probably have less of it now. But we have a much heightened awareness of what is happening and therefore, a greater sensitivity in a positive way toward tolerating it. And so that’s, I mean, that’s going to be a big story, a lot of the times once a year to year, there’s a common theme in my stories, because the major things don’t really change necessarily year to year. So if you told me next year, there’s going to be another major abuse scandal in the news, I would say, Yeah, because we’re living through a reckoning, that is enabled in part by the multiplicity, endless multiplicity of voices that the internet allows to be able to speak out. So that’s a lot of what I thought about, about the abuse questions this last year, because keep in mind, the Southern Baptist Convention, there was no chance the leaders wanted to voluntarily, you know, disclose the fact that they had covered up all these cases, but it came to fold a few years ago, of course, it came because the Houston Chronicle kind of old school, traditional journalistic investigation, men, the only reason that it was demanded was because of essentially a social media, or it was was required was a social media campaign. That was largely Twitter based otherwise, this report never would have been produced.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, yeah. And it’s, I think it’s interesting sometimes in life. It’s, it’s almost like I forget to read certain parts of the Bible. You know, it’s kind of like, we’re always surprised by suffering. Yeah, but Jesus never promised a life free of suffering. But somehow it gets in our head, a bit of a wrong prosperity gospel. And I think we also get into a little bit of a, I don’t know if the right term is idealization of the church, but Jesus, yeah, Peter, Paul, they all learned that there were going to be fierce wolves, who would come in and devour the plot. I mean, they were saying this in the first century, warning the church to be on their guard. And I think, I think it can be really easy with church leaders, to put our guards down because we rightly respect and admire and love them. And that’s why in some ways, it’s maybe more painful, because we think this is supposed to be a safe place. And it’s just a good reminder, I think, to be sober, not to be at really fearful, but to be sober in our assessment of any church setting, to just be aware of what could be going on.

Collin Hansen
There’s a lot of talk Melissa, about the church as a family. And I love and I appreciate that. And I think we see theologically, biblically the way that works out with brothers and sisters. But what happens when you get hurt in the family. So as bad as it gets, and, and when you combine that family with the very things of life and death of eternity of heaven, and hell, there’s no there’s no hurt. It goes quite so deep, as church hurt. And so we’re just we’re, it’s not that it’s new. But what’s new is that we know a lot more about it. And hopefully, through books like Mike Kriegers new bully pulpit, a recent award winner for the gospel coalition Book Awards, that we’ll be more vigilant about. Not only forsaking those temptations ourselves as church leaders, but also holding one another in our leaders accountable.

Melissa Kruger
And I do think there’s an encouragement in the fact that if Jesus knew this was going to be part of our story, it doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with the church mean, it doesn’t mean the church itself is a bad institution. It means there are individuals who use the goodness of the church for evil ends, but the Lord will expose them. And I think that’s what I feel encouraged by that he, he’s constantly refining his church and he loves the church, and we can love the church, unabashedly and unashamedly. And still say, hey, we need to be aware, as we’re walking in the doors, that that these things can happen. And I think I think the thing we saw in the world, it’s not just our churches, you know that we may be sometimes more surprised by our churches, having issues but as we look around the world, I think we’re involved in conflicts that we couldn’t have imagined in 2021. If you had told me that Russia was going to invade Ukraine, I would have been like you’re Really pessimistic Colin? Yeah. Like, what are you talking about?

Collin Hansen
The first time you said it

Melissa Kruger
the hard things, but it’s pretty shocking. I spent a summer in Kyiv. In 94, it was three years after Ukraine had become independent. When I think about that, like, it’s pretty shocking. And I can remember we celebrated the Fourth of July there. And we had a big Fourth of July party. It was kind of a cultural exchange. Our Ukrainian roommates had this big party with us. And one of my friends, his, his Ukrainian roommate woke up that morning and said, Congratulations on your country’s independence. He said it so seriously. I, you know, it really never struck me until this, how new their independence was at that time, and how much they treasured it as a people. And now we’re seeing these horrific effects of that being called into question this whole year as they’ve been attacked. And, yeah, just war is awful. And we’ve seen that we also are seeing China seeming to grow increasingly authoritarian in their regimes, policies and behaviors towards Taiwan, and just their COVID policy, and then we see Iran, and all that has erupted in the past few months. How do you look at these conflicts? How do you see these things affecting the church at large? And do you see any signs of gospel hope? I mean, because obviously, we see the bad of these complex. But have you heard any reports coming out of the church moving forward, the Gospel advancing in the midst of these worldly conflicts that feel pretty awful to think about and read about in the news, you and

Collin Hansen
I, both? We grew up through the, what was described as the end of history. I don’t know if you remember, remember that era, the end of history. And I think when people describe that’s, you know, people describe as the end of the Soviet Union is this, a hegemony of the West. And to us, it can be very confusing. But to go back, you had this whole era of seemingly never ending conflict between democracy and authoritarianism, fascism, communism, all of this, these ideological and, and massive conflagrations that engulf the entire world and killed hundreds of millions of people. And then the fall of the Soviet Union, which was utterly shocking. I don’t think we could possibly recall, I mean, he put ourselves in that position of how shocking that was. Well, Melissa, now you can mark 2022, as the year that history began, again, The End of History ended. You know, what I find encouragement, though, in each of these different situations a little bit different. What we know from history, is that many times when a powerful leader appears to be at his zenith, he’s actually about to face his downfall. And I know World War Two is not a paradigm for everything. Vladimir Putin has apparently decided to take some sort of incredibly twisted interpretation of World War Two as its justification for invading Ukraine. But it was precisely an invasion of that part of Eastern Europe into Asia, that led to Hitler’s downfall and World War Two. And I think the most likely outcome of this ultimately, is a weakened, destabilized Russia, even if they were to somehow still prevail. He has been exposed. And that is, and not only that, there’s a reason this is a theological story. It’s because of the tremendous implications. It’s fascinating to me, Melissa, that we’re talking about Christian nationalism in the United States against the backdrop of a state church that is thoroughly corrupt in Russia, by its proximity to political power. So that’s Russia’s situation, to go over to China. I went to my, one of my friends, she and I started a Christian magazine together in college, she and her husband and family are missionaries in Taiwan. She wrote for us about that. And I gotta I gotta be honest about this one was I don’t I haven’t heard a lot of hope coming out of China. The positive that I’m seeing is that China has just recently realized that they can’t have their zero COVID policy forever. But that means that huge waves of COVID are about to be unleashed in China, its original home, it’s going to bring incredible suffering, and related to and it’s already brought economic devastation, and it’s become a pretext for cracking down on the church. And so a Hannah nation did an interview with me this this year on gospel bound, she’s done. Just amazing work bringing the voices out of the Chinese house church in particular. But I haven’t heard a lot of great positive news on the shutdown from COVID. And this broader consolidation of power under the current president has been unfortunate and extreme. And the last one, though, in Iran, we can come back again, and I think perhaps see some hope. Iran has been no stranger to revolution over the years. But we have not ever before seen in Iran with the fastest growing Evan Jellicle movement in the world. So it’ll be fascinating to see Melissa, how that dynamic interplays with the broader kind of women’s rights human rights dimension, which is, historically speaking only because of Christianity, it doesn’t come from Islam. So only because of Christianity, and yet often does take on a kind of secular flavor. So it’ll be interesting to see between in between a theocratic Islamic State, a growing underground Evan Jellicle movement, pressure on women’s and human rights. I don’t know. I mean, I would be not surprised at all, if this ends up back in my top 10 list for 20 and 23.

Melissa Kruger
It’s pretty sobering. When you look at the world. I mean, yeah, I think there was something about the Russia and Ukraine complex that just made you realize, again, the world can turn, you know, on a dime, if we didn’t learn that from COVID. I mean, the whole world shut down. And now here are these conflicts Iraq. And and I really don’t know how people make it who don’t believe in a God who’s reigning over all things. Because we know he holds all these things, and that the end is secure. Even though we don’t know what means will come about to bring forth his good intentions. In the long run. When you just look at it, it does seem to be a bit of a mess. And it’s not just the world out there. I mean, when we come back to the states and back to America, we look around and I’ve noticed myself, this is kind of one of those odd things. I do not think of myself as an overly anxious or paranoid person. But I was walking, who was walking the other day, I was walking through somewhere out if it’s the mall or some thing thinking, how would I escape if a gunman came in this in this situation? And that is just a thought that I never had before. You know, you just go about our days, but I remember just having a thought, Where’s the exit door? Yeah, and and this isn’t new day in America. For us. We’re dealing with mass shootings, it does seem to be at a greater level. I don’t know the statistics. So I could, we’re definitely more aware of it than ever. But

Collin Hansen
definitely, I mean, in fact, it’s gotten so bad, Melissa, that many, if not most of the mass shootings today, we don’t even hear about anymore. It’s just like three people killed over here at a workplace, five people killed over here at a public place. Some of them still penetrate our consciousness. Because of the time of the year, the location, for example, the Highland Park, shooting because of the Fourth of July parade. But if you look at a list, Melissa, it is. It’s really discouraging. And sometimes you get perspective from your international friends who are legitimately afraid to visit the United States because of this, and you kind of laugh at them. Because in part you’re thinking, I mean, this is a very large country. There gonna be a lot of bad things happening in this country that don’t affect you. But Melissa, it’s the randomness and the frequency of it. It’s the fact that there is no predictable pattern, a lot of violent crime in this country is concentrated in certain geographic areas. But that is not the case with the mass shootings. And there doesn’t appear to be a rhyme or reason we, we would love for there to be some sort of thing. We if we had someone to blame if we had somewhere to turn, but that’s what makes it so difficult. So we don’t know. There doesn’t appear to be anything we could say. Well, we just don’t cover them. Well. Yes, it does appear that some of them want attention, but a lot of the times these are just I just they’re very lost. Last people, but even I don’t I don’t want to draw undue attention to this. But one of the shooters had spent time recently, regularly in a church that I know. And then killed a bunch of people right near that church. I mean, I think you’ve done a good job already. Just in this conversation, Melissa, when are we talking about these things, bringing them back to spiritual realities? And I think that’s what we need. Because ultimately, the spiritual reality is that whatever we want to think this is a dark world, that is, is captive in so many ways to Satan and to sin. But that the consistent testimony of Scripture, and of God’s work throughout history is that the light shines in the darkness. And God is doing something that you don’t even expect. And like you said, the last time, I don’t know how you do this, without I just think about my kids in school, like, what hope do I have, except that I can trust God no matter what happens? Because, Melissa, I can’t guarantee they’re gonna be safe. Now, of course, we know that’s not true of any time. But but that’s sort of the the terrorism of mass shootings is that it could be anyone, anywhere at any time?

Melissa Kruger
Yes, yes. And it’s an interesting fact, the internet, too, because it’s not we know about things in ways that maybe we wouldn’t have known about them, these probably would have made it to the surface. But I even think of I mean, we just heard the little story, the story of the little girl with the FedEx delivery, and she was taken, you have these things that as parents share, they raise us to feel like, what can we do to make sure this doesn’t happen? And there, the reality is, yeah, like, just like you said, we can’t stop going to the stores, so that we won’t ever engage the shooter. We can’t stop going to parades we, we live in we trust the Lord and we walk in faith on these things. But I do think it’s interesting that this, this arises alongside a suicide rate between the teens, that’s nearly the highest I think it’s ever been. Teenage suicide is the second leading cause of death right now, for teens. There’s this rising hopelessness and some of the books I’ve been researching. This is the most unchurched generation in American history. And we’re seeing all this, you know, it’s it’s these mass shootings, a lot of them are done by people in that teenage, early 20. year age group, like a lot of what we’re seeing. And so there seems to be a pervasive hopelessness. So let me ask you this question. How do you think culture is trying to answer that question? We have an answer in the church. Yeah. I mean, I look like people are lost, and they they need Jesus, how do you see culture? Trying to answer the question, why are so many people hopeless and lost? Like there’s the band aid approach, which says, Hey, let’s work on gun control. We’ve had a debate about that. And TGC. That’s a good debate to have it but it’s assessing, how do we keep the gun out of someone’s hands? I also want to discuss how do we prevent someone from wanting to take a gun and kill people? You know, like, how do we address that issue? Both needs to be addressed? For sure. But how do we address how do you think culture is trying to address that question of why are teens so desperately hopeless right now?

Collin Hansen
Well, you you mentioned that we discussed earlier that there’s no rhyme or reason to the shootings. But I guess that’s not entirely accurate. It’s always men, and they’re almost always young. So that’s not a coincidence, this is not this is not a bunch of 80 year old grandmothers out there doing this. So there must be something to that whatever that is, it is gendered, and it is age segmented. And so I think Melissa, the way a lot of non Christians are trying to approach it is through. There’s a group in, in my, in my hometown here, where they’re trying to help we have a lot of problems with drug abuse, alcohol abuse, suicide, in an affluent, successful setting. And there’s a lot of discussion about mental health, a lot of discussion of how to how to identify and to help other people, a lot of warnings about abuse, a lot of discussions about wise practices with social media. So I would say for Christians, probably a lot of that stuff is perfectly helpful. But I don’t think it it remains at a level that is above the underlying spiritual realities, it seems to be on a naturalistic plane. And I will say that I at least would appreciate, at least appreciate people and communities that are trying to address it at that level, as opposed to most of what I see, which is simply I just blame the people that I already hate about everything else, the political approach that you described earlier, so that part seems to go absolutely nowhere. It doesn’t even seem to be about the problem, but just exploiting the problem to try to score political points. So I think we do need more attention to, to mental health, but ultimately, I just don’t see a an ultimate solution unless we’re recognizing, I guess, I wonder how much more evidence do we need of the pervasiveness of sin, and evil and satan? Because I don’t know that there’s any explanation except demonic activity from an enemy who seeks to devour and destroy us. And in a fallen world? I, I don’t think we need to, I don’t think we need to manufacture more complicated solutions than that, in this sense, our ancestors probably were wiser.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, it’s interesting. Some of the research I’ve been doing, showed one study, and this came out of the Harvard Chan School of Public Health. And it actually showed that children and adolescents who regularly attended religious services were 18% more happy on an on a general basis, that was the term term they use. They were 29% more likely to volunteer in their communities, and 33% less likely to use illicit drugs. And I find things like that, you know, that the world is discovering. That goes in alignment with the scriptures. It’s, it’s wonderful when you actually see the research being done, because it gives me encouragement as a Christian parent, like one of the one of the great things I can do for my child’s mental health is simply to take them to church every week. I mean, it doesn’t mean that Christians aren’t depressed, of course they are. But it’s just when you’re looking at the things to do. I mean, you could also say, exercise is great for mental health. You know, there are lots of things that are really positive for helping our children and society. But it’s really interesting when even studies are showing involvement in the church is really good. Good for teens. So for any parent whose teen is struggling to go to church and doesn’t want to go, we can say no, actually, this is really good for you, in a lot more ways than just me telling, you

Collin Hansen
know, if you’re, if your teen has descended into a dark and insular world that seems to revolve entirely around the internet, keep fighting for them. Keep fighting for them. Because if nothing else, that in person socialization seems to make a big difference. And especially if it’s in a community, of ultimate purpose, of ultimate hope, of transformation of spiritual power of love from other people who care for them. Where else is a teen supposed to get that? Or a young man? Where else is a young man supposed to find that? Man, I think it’s one reason why young men have always been drawn towards some bad things and bad movements, because unless they’re called to higher spiritual pursuits, and pouring up those cells for others, they tend to direct their energies toward fighting other people. So that Yeah, absolutely. The church has a as a vital role to play.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, yeah. And in this world, we’re also seeing one of your other stories was something I think that’s probably particularly difficult for parents. I mean, in one sense, you bring up kind of the political problems that we’re experiencing with transgender ideology, especially with female sports. We’ve seen that kind of where is this going? And how far can it go? Question is definitely coming up. But then at the same time you report on to historically Christian universities, who are have abandoned the biblical, historical, biblical sexual ethic. So we’re seeing that some of the worldly ideologies that are kind of exploding rapidly, I mean, you know, I don’t think 20 years ago we could have imagined having a conversation, where gender reassignment surgery is a normal normative discussion. You And here, yeah, here we are. But it’s really happening a lot for parents as they have to navigate waters in our public schools that are teaching, you know, hey, you get to decide your gender pronoun, or you evade them by he or she all these different, I can’t even keep track of all the options. It’s kind of overwhelming. And so how would you encourage Christian parents? Because we, we want to be involved in the world around us and the culture around us? How do we navigate these debates? Because it’s not just the baits out there. I mean, they’re very personal to most of us, especially as we see our children being impacted by them. And yeah, you’ve got kids going into school, I’m, I’m on the other side, where, you know, my kids are kind of walking into college. But that’s very different than walking into kindergarten. Right now. I feel like the changes between my first child go into kindergarten in your first shot going to kindergarten, are pretty shocking. So how is how is parents Christian parents? Do we navigate these discussions when they really do affect our daily life with our kids?

Collin Hansen
By far, the most helpful thing I have read on this topic was published by the gospel coalition this year, called transformation of a transgender teen. It was an article written by Sarah zostera, you go ahead and find that, and what the, what the pastor Sam Ferguson in Washington, DC, what he had reflected on in that article is the need for parents to, to love their children, in truth, that compromising on truth. For the sake of love only makes the entire situation more difficult, the longer it goes. Now, as our children get over, obviously, we don’t, we don’t control them, even when they’re under our own household like we don’t control them. That’s not our job as parents is to control them in that sense. We can influence we can exercise authority over them, and that is significant. But ultimately, we don’t control their minds, we don’t control their wills. And that’s part of what makes parenting so frustrating. There, but we can uphold truth, we can refuse to compromise with truth as the world tells us that we must conform to them for the sake of love. And I think what we’re seeing Melissa, between these Christian colleges, universities that are moving away from that historic biblical teaching, is the confluence of the dominant, expressive, individualistic perspective, which is I have my truth, and everybody else’s job is to affirm me. But in the trans issue, in particular, it’s running up against what Jonathan Hite has the social psychologist Jonathan hight at New York University has dubbed moral foundations theory. And this is perfectly consistent for what our understanding as Christians, he’s not a Christian, but I think it’s perfectly consistent for us. And he recognizes that there are all these different touch points of care and harm and authority and saggy religiosity or just sanctity, and what you see with the trans issue is different from homosexuality. So homosexuality, more or less for most people, unfortunately, outside of the church, even sometimes inside the church, they see it as a simple matter of freedom, freedom and autonomy, and what’s more valuable in American culture than freedom and autonomy. Thing about the trans issue, though, is that it runs into a lot of other questions, because, first of all, there’s the question of harm. The dominant moral ethic is just do no harm. Well, is it harmful to do gender reassignment surgery and puberty blockers on a preteen or a young teen? There are plenty of people on the other side of it, who have experienced this who do see it as harm. So there’s a physical harm involved in this or at least an irreversible physical transformation, that Bray that is very much in dispute. And in fact, we’re seeing a lot of changes, especially in the UK backing off a lot of those treatments. So there’s that one. There’s also the authority question for parents. Can a school and teachers and counselors at a school actually guide my child toward these physical transformations that can never be reversed? Without my knowledge, or against my opposition as a parent? I think that’s one of the transformations that you’re talking about Melissa in school. has happened there. So there’s that one. And then there’s another one there. The third one, Melissa. And that is fairness. Is it fair for a man who now says that he is a woman to compete against other women? Now, something that can look one way the way that it did with NCAA swimming this last year, thankfully, swimming’s not a sport where the men and women would have to physically engage with one another, you know, you’re competing side to side with each other. But you do. So there is that, but there’s still the broader question of is, how is this fair. But then now you’re also seeing the harm principle in the UK, because these men who are identifying as women are being placed in shelters with battered women. And, of course, what’s happening, you’re seeing those men who are identifying as women abuse, women there. And these are supposed to be women’s specific shelters designed to protect them from the harm of men. So this situation is more complicated than what we’ve seen before. And I actually Melissa have some hope. That as, as these different moral foundations are being covered, that we’re going to see some sensibility return to this conversation to recognize that merely affirming everyone’s individual desire to do or be whatever they want, actually has social implications for all of us is never a private decision. So I have hoped that that situation might actually reverse.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, the further you get away from actual truth, like you begin to lose all meaning of anything. Yeah, if I can call night day and day night, because that’s my personal preference. How do we even have a conversation at some level, you just start losing the ability, you know, you realize we have to foundations for truth. And thankfully, the Bible gives us these and it’s a good thing. But I remember the first time I walked in with my child, maybe it was around 13, or 14, and my child had to give me permission to be in the doctor’s office. Go and this is I was like, and she was she was confused. She was like, What do you mean, I have to give my mom permission to come into the doctor’s office without me. But yeah, so we’re societally we’re setting up some things that are pretty just uncomfortable, even to our kids. Yeah. I mean, she couldn’t imagine why she would not be in the doctor’s office with me. But we all can we know where, where this is coming from. And it really leads us to our last question I want to talk about from the top 10 theology stories of the year. And because most of them were extremely heavy, I mean, to be quite honest. They show the need of the gospel, for the light to conquer the darkness. But one, I did feel like there was a ray of light, and that was the dobs decision that came out this year. Can you tell us a little bit about the story, the importance of this ruling, and maybe some of the impact we’re already seeing

Collin Hansen
simply puts a reversal of Roe v. Wade. I mean, this is this is 50 years of, of one of the most unjust, inexplicable decisions and consequential decisions Supreme Court history being overturned. And so some of the some of the results we’ve already seen, I’ve seen reports anywhere from about seven to 9% reduction in abortions, primarily because of the states that had abortion bans already on the books from pre Roe, or especially those that had enacted them on the event of rows being overturned, or that enacted them quickly, anywhere from near total bans to heartbeat bills to, you know, certain restrictions on the timing of the abortion. So it seems that it’s a good thing when an unjust decision has been overturned, number one. Number two, it’s a good thing that we’re seeing a reduction in abortions. I do have to issue a caveat. And that is that the the the forces of evil are not dormant. And what you’re seeing now, has been underway for a little while, but a massive effort to strategically build abortion clinics in states of near proximity to states that do not allow abortion, especially we’re seeing a lot of that from Illinois. And related to that is the broader challenge of many states have responded to the dobs decision by radically liberalizing their abortion. laws, were saying no restrictions, state financing, all the way until that baby’s head is out of the womb at 40 weeks. That is evil. It’s horrifying. It’s scary. And it’s just a once again, a reminder, keep praying, keep fighting, keep advocating for these women who in many cases feel scared, trapped. And then and also ultimately, for those children, like Melissa, one of the things that scares me the most. I’m kind of putting you on the spot here is that. I don’t know if I could say most. But much of what I’ve read on this topic lately, has focused on the number that the demographic of women getting abortions is women who already have children. Hence, what scares me, I think the most now again, I understand at a human level, what’s going on? They feel I can’t handle another child. I can’t afford it. I don’t have the time. I don’t have the childcare. But listen, this just gets me and first of all, I mean, I you don’t ever seem to see a man involved like a man there have father. I mean, doesn’t appear to almost ever be a father. So I don’t want to overlook that part right there. But it just cuts me to know that these are these women, they have children. They’ve been pregnant, they’ve delivered babies, they’ve seen it the ultrasounds and still they go for an abortion.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah. Yeah. It’s actually where I think Chaldee if something does affect our understanding of what we’re doing, yes, yes. Could you know, and I am very happy for you. Because we’ve had this whole campaign, I think of changing hearts and minds about abortion, and I’m kind of like the law actually matters. Yeah. We say something’s illegal. It does not let us off the hook. It says our culture doesn’t think this is okay. And I think for a lot of women, I think their hearts are telling them it’s not okay. I think their inner? Yeah, they’re in I think our country has told them, it’s okay. You need to do what’s best for you. And, and please hear we, we know, these are awful situations women find themselves in at times, because they are alone. They are, they have no idea what to do. And our culture has said rather than say, we will support you and we will help you. We have said yeah, just let’s get rid of this problem. So what we have is a culture of death, not just individuals choosing it. And I think that’s a huge problem. I think this decision does at least allow us to say we want to move toward a culture of life. This year will be 50 years. The anniversary. I mean, it’s Yeah, and it’s wonderful to be able to say at least, rugby weight has been overturned. There’ll be different conferences going on, you know, we know of Sam for life, some friends of ours are putting this conference on, I’ll be there. It’ll be in January, it will be right with the march for life. And so I think what you’re saying is a really good point, though, there’s still so much work to be done. This is not the end, it’s a good beginning of promoting life in our culture. And this gets into euthanasia. I mean, this gets into all all parts of life. This gets into care for the poor. I mean, that we care about life, but it does start with life. So we have to as a culture say that we value the youngest member of life, it’s it’s hugely important, and I’m thankful. It’s something it’s again, just as much as I did not see Russia invading Ukraine this year. I did not see Roe v. Wade being overturned. So

Collin Hansen
not before that leak. Yeah. Which we still don’t have any answers about, but it is pretty amazing that I didn’t even list that one. Number one. In fact, it wasn’t even in my top four. Yeah, because of the magnitude of the International historic events in Iran, in China, and especially in Ukraine.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah. Well, that’s the top 10. I want to ask you a few questions. Just some other questions about things going on. Gospel bound, you have had a lot of interviews this year. 33 total. And so want to ask when you look back on this year, what were some of the interviews that really stood out to you are in Are there any upcoming that you can tell us about but any from this past year that you really say, Wow, that was a fun interview to do?

Collin Hansen
Yeah, I want to say a word to the listeners here. You get to you get to listen in on some and vulnerable, real moments, even these conversation with us right here, where he is, and I love listening to podcasts I, I build a connection with, with, with the people that I’m listening to his songs a friendship, and a lot of ways what it feels like. And I know that’s Melissa, how so many people have felt about let’s talk. That is a real friendship that you guys share. And it’s also one that, that people feel like they’re your friends as well. And so I think about the way that so many of my interviews from this last year, they don’t just exist in some sort of world of content, but their real life. I did an interview with Bill and will kinds, two very good friends of mine and a book that I’ve been looking forward to for a long time about job. Bill is a pastor who recently retired and he writes about the homiletics, the preaching of job, and then will, is a scholar here, one of my colleagues at Samford University in Alabama, and is an expert do his PhD at Cambridge on job. And so, so that interview was really special. But what was amazing afterward, Melissa, is that you remember the horrible tale of the young mother who was abducted and killed in Memphis. We know a lot of people who know that family, lot of mutual friends. Well, it turned out that one of the listeners a gospel bound had shared that with the, with the husband. And he listened to that interview, and actually set up a conversation with Bill and will to talk with them just spiritually about what he was going through. After his, his wife and the mother of their children had been abducted and killed. And so that was that was that was real. That was a moment. Another one. The best, or the best article I read all year, was from a, an NBA basketball writer named Jonathan Tjarks. And, and it was called does my son know you. And it was about his one in 20 million cancer diagnosis as a 35 year old father, a 34 year old father of a son who was born in 2020. And Jonathan did that interview with me. And then I asked him for a health update afterward. And he said, I just found out Colin, that it’s done. I’m going to die. There’s nothing left for them to do. And sure enough, within within months, he was dead. So Jonathan, that was I don’t know how many other interviews if any Jonathan had done but that was when the last interviews he did with me talking about that amazing article, and really Melissa about the both of these are about the power of the church, the power of the gospel on display in the church, because Jonathan came to faith as an adult. And he was never just never lost his joy over the gospel, never lost his marvel at this thing called the church. And so he wrote this amazing article about his own loss of his own father, and how it meant so much to him when somebody would, from his father’s life would come to him. And, and would just kind of fill that role and remind him of his father’s love, and you know, things like that anyway. And that was Jonathan’s challenge to the church was, Does my son know you? Will you be the father to my son, that I can’t be. And he fully expected that the church and this and his small group, especially in his church would rise to that occasion. And I think then, Melissa, about our friend, Anna Harris. She lost her husband with three young kids. And, and as she and I talked a lot about this dynamic of these other men in their lives and their church, trying to fill that role. Well, she had recommended to me a book, it was at TGC w 22. I remember exactly where we were, she said, Colin, you must get the book. Everything said is untrue by Daniel. And I said, Okay, I’ve heard well, I mean, if Anna tells me and I’ve, you know, I’m gonna read it. And it was one of the best books I can remember reading mazing story. And interviewing Daniel, one of the one of my publishing geek highlights of my career, was asking Daniel, if he had rewritten this book, Harper Lee style, if he had if he had recognized that he needed to write the book as a child. And sure enough, that is exactly what he’d done he’d written The book before as an adult, it made no sense. He went back, he wrote it as a child. And it just became a classic. Melissa and many people don’t know Daniel was 20 years at Redeemer Presbyterian Church with Tim Keller. And the title, of course, comes from the conclusion of The Return of the King, Sam, seeing Gandalf, who he thought was dead. And people will see this Melissa in my book on Tim Keller, that was the scene that Tim Keller went to on September 14, September after September 11 2001. Then, and I asked Daniel, I said, Daniel, when did you get to New York, and he said, right before September 11, he was there for that sermon. So the over the I mean, that’s so that the whole story, that whole book, that whole perspective, K was all connected to the work of that amazing church, and just the power of the gospel to be able to work miracles in the midst of bad situations. So, so I’m looking forward in in 2023, so you guys are hearing this. First, we’re going to do a special abbreviated season of gospel bound. I’m gonna be doing a series of interviews, I’ve already recorded most of them with people who are related to the Timothy Keller book. So we’re gonna be talking about various influences on Tim. So we have Chris watkyn, talking about biblical critical theory. And essentially high high theory in general, which Tim has been advocating for so much as a big part of his life. We also have Rick lens talking about theological vision, Bill Edgar talking about apologetics. John Piper talking about the shared number one and number two influences both him and that he and timbul ship that they will share, Jonathan Edwards and CS Lewis, I will also have James Eglinton and perhaps another surprise or two in there. So it’s a this is it’s a labor of love this podcast because the Lord does some, just some amazing things, you know, through the interviews, and in the interviews, and it’s a privilege to be a part of and, and I’m so sad that we’re not going to have any more let’s talk wrapped up at TDC w 22. This last year. And I know that you were surprised when a little birdie informed you that one of your that your most popular episode ever was from this season on when friends fall away? Yeah. What do you think, Melissa? Why did that episode resonate so much with with the large audience of let’s talk?

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, I did. There’s a side of me, I need to get back and listen to it. Yeah, we record those. And I was like, what are we talking about? We honestly have real conversations. And so just like you don’t remember, sometimes all you discussed, but when I think about the topic, and even when I texted Jackie and Jasmine to tell them hey, I just want you to know, this was one of our most popular episodes, The Most Popular The Most pop. Yeah, yeah, it was the most popular and the sadness of why it’s the most popular is because so many of us are dealing with people we love who have walked away from the faith. And I think we’re all trying to figure out what do we do? What does it mean when someone who we have loved dearly, walks away from the faith? Well, yeah, it’s unsettling. It’s incredibly unsettling, because in some sense, it calls into question where we believe it’s like we’re staying and they’re going and we’re wondering why. And so I hope it was helpful, and comforting, in some sense, one that we all experience it and again, this is one of those things in scripture that’s there. You when Jesus tells the parable of the sower, he talks about some spring up for a moment, but because of the cares of the world, you know, they fall away. I mean, he, he talks about these hard realities that are spiritual things that there are leaders who fall away. And that there are people who, who seem like they’re initially receiving the gospel, but then they fall away. And, and for me, I think the book of Hebrews is such a beautiful job of seeing that, and it keeps calling us to faithfulness. Don’t be like that. So yeah, that I’m that I’m hopeful that we hear these stories and we say, Dear Jesus saved me keep saying, you know, save me from such a day. You know, to quote Twila, Paris goodness, I’m old. Yeah, I remember a song she had it was, yeah, it was, you got to know I’d rather lose my my life than my faith basically, was the summation that she wanted. She so deeply desired, a lack of faithfulness. That, you know, and it’s even helpful to realize, yeah, these thoughts. These things have been happening a long time. I think like everything else we’ve discussed, they’re more highlighted. As more public figures have a more public platform to speak their deconversion, or they’re walking away from the faith. And so it feels like it’s everywhere. But I think the reality is, we see a lot of people walking firmly with the Lord coming to the Lord and joyful in the Lord. And so that’s, that’s hopeful, as well. But yeah, that was that was the line that I think, had the biggest impact definitely this year. But we had a great time, having a few years and a few seasons of getting to chat around the table, some of my favorite conversations to have. So they were actually in town this past few days. And there were a couple of times I looked at him, I was like, that would have been a great conversation. Like, oh, so nice to talk without being recorded. To have the freedom to be like, do I want that story? Talk to everyone in the world?

Collin Hansen
Maybe we’ll get the let’s talk bonus edition.

Melissa Kruger
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Well, we have also just had, it’s that time of year, where all the book awards come out, which Ivan on our team does such an amazing job. I mean, we start wetting August, maybe June, July,

Collin Hansen
six months, essentially. Yeah. So I Mesa, editorial hero.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah. And we put together jet for judges for every category. Outside judges. And the the lead judge takes on a lot of books to narrow down to four as we as we do these things.

Collin Hansen
I’ve noticed Melissa, you demoted yourself to a judge in my quarry instead of being the lead lead? Yes,

Melissa Kruger
it was so nice. For books this year rather than 45. Yeah, we sort through. But as you think back to this year, and just different books, is there a book you’ve read that really impacted you?

Collin Hansen
I can’t wait for people to hear the interview with Chris Watkins unbiblical critical theory. It is simply one of the best books I’ve ever read. It is 700 Pages

Melissa Kruger
for calling your books needs to come with a warning label. We’ve discussed this before. As you got me to read Kristen LaFrance. Fiction bought condos and could basically be a doorstop for any any door in your house.

Collin Hansen
Aren’t you so grateful? Because what an amazing book.

Melissa Kruger
Do you take a book recommendation for make sure we should Amazon check the page.

Collin Hansen
It’s true. It’s true. Melissa has suffered that fate. You know, we did a review of this at the gospel coalition. And for those of you who might be want to catch the reference, we wrote Christopher watkyn, against the pagans against the pagans is the subtitle of City of God by Augustine. And while no one could ever dare compare anything outside of Scripture to Augustine city of God, there will be much more to come from me in the new year, along the lines of mobilizing a generation of church leaders to be able to undertake that task that Augustine provided in his late Roman Empire age of bringing the Gospel to bear on a rapidly transforming world with preset perceptive insight that is, that is underneath where most people are looking, deeper insight of of the dramatic kind of assumptions of our time and of our age. And that is definitely what Chris watkyn does, that is a labor of decades, you don’t just wake up some day and decide you want to write a book on those lines. But the beautiful thing about the about a book is that that you and I can just grab a copy, sit down and work through it and benefit from all of that amazing research. So that is a that is the book that stood out this year. It was a winner in our category of public theology, and deservedly so. And I think it’ll be one that folks will be talking about for for a very long time. All right, well, so what about you?

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, it’s interesting, the way you just describe that I feel like I’ve been doing my head has been in a lot of books. I’m doing research for a book on parenting teenagers. And so I have been reading a lot of really almost secular voices with a lot of common grace insight on teenagers, and just different ones. I mean, there’s been the teenage brain which is from a neuroscientist she was the mother of two young boys and under her understanding of the brain greatly helped her Understanding of teenagers, and she shares that iGeneration, which really talks about the effects of the iPhone and social media on teenagers, the price of privilege, which I read years ago, probably one of the best books on raising teens that I’ve read. And another book rain, I mean, there’s a list of them. But these books have really been, on my mind a lot, you know, the collective weight of thinking through what’s happening societally with the iPhone, with our teenagers, and how that’s impacting our teens, but it’s impacting our parenting. You know, we see it everywhere we go, you go to a restaurant, and you see everybody on their fence and not engaging with each other. And, you know, I was talking with some people that it’s not like, cellphones and of themselves are the problem. But there’s, but they’re, they’re allowing certain societal things to change pretty rapidly. And we’re seeing the impacts of it. So you pretty fascinating you

Collin Hansen
talk, you’ve talked Melissa, about how you’re grateful that when your kids were little, you didn’t have a phone. And so you just we’re not, we’re not tempted to that. And that’s certainly a constant temptation for me, especially given the nature of our work. But then also, just a temptation for anybody today, and I just came across this probably while I was on my phone or on my kids. You reference, a reference to the number one regret that teenagers have is that their, their parents don’t appear to be listening to them, in part because their parents are just locked in on their phone and paired with that, how frustrated they are by the things their parents say on social media. Interest. Wow.

Melissa Kruger
You don’t think they’re listening? And they are? Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, I think. I think it’s one of those temptations. I’m thinking about my own life. The reason I started gardening in my front yard was because I was outside and didn’t want my kids to get hit by a car. So I had to be outside. And I got bored. Because I didn’t have anything to do. Like, now I would I know myself, I would be on my cell phone. I’d be rehabbing, like this is great. I can watch them while I’m reading. But it actually that’s when I started gardening. And I think about what a joy that is for my brain to have a break. And that we need a break from thinking and and just to be outside and maybe not be doing these things that I look at teenagers. They really are reflections of what’s going on in the home. And so if we don’t want them on their phones all the time, we probably need to monitor our usage. And it’s just it’s just a it’s just a huge issue and difficult to navigate in these waters. I do think one day cellphones might come with a warning label like cigarettes. You I think we’re living through a time where we just don’t even know maybe what we’re seeing. But the reports coming out are pretty dramatic on the effects on

Collin Hansen
checkout. Checkout the checkout Sara’s Alcatraz recorded podcast this year scrolling alone. Yeah, and one that if it’s not already out, now, by the time you listen to this will be soon, her new podcast and recorded called gaming alone about but young about young men.

Melissa Kruger
And Sarah’s research basically got her off all social media.

Collin Hansen
That’s true. And then she’ll of course, also did her book Social sanity and uninstall age this year for the gospel coalition as well. So a lot of good resources to check out. There’ll be as she, she’s gone completely. You’re not gonna find her there.

Melissa Kruger
And then, you know, and I read a chapter on discernment and social sanity. And I can’t Yeah, I think it’s, it’s like most things. Yeah, we have to figure out what level can we be engaged in, in that’s healthy for our lives. And I think there’s a, you know, there were none of us are saying, hey, go off completely like, because we want you to read things on the internet, since that’s where we write them. And we hope you’ll listen to this podcast. So we’re, you know, I think there’s a balance and we’re trying to all figure that out as the avenues have changed. For the ways that we the ways that we get news. One other exciting thing we have coming up this year is TGC 23. It’s a big deal. A conference in town, it’s the first time we’ve done it in the fall. So that’s that’s a change. Normally, we’d be scrambling because it would be an April, it feels like so refreshing as far away in September. Can you tell us a little bit about the theme and what’s going on and what you’re excited about that conference? was a lot

Collin Hansen
of what we were talking about here is a theme is hope, hoping in a time when it feels like we’re wandering in a kind of wilderness. And so we’re going to be exploring these Beautiful, Old Testament stories, these Exodus stories of, of God’s people being delivered despite themselves. So we’ve got got a great lineup of main speakers we’ve got. It’s got a mix of kind of newer and older voices people like John Piper, David Platt of JD Greer, for the first time ever had a TGC event ligand Duncan, we’ll be back. Yeah, JD will be there. And then also, one of my favorites, Andrew Wilson coming in from London, Andrew will be there not only to to give one of our plenary talks, and he’s written extremely well in the past, not only on Exodus, but on the local theology in general. And so I’m very excited about what they’ll bring to the table. But Andrew will also be featuring doing a talk on his new book 1776, which is an absolute treat, no doubt will be one of my favorite books of of next year.

Melissa Kruger
When it comes out.

Collin Hansen
In the fall, I think it’s time for our conference in the fall. So Andrew has given us a preview of that this last year at one of our council meetings at Museum of the Bible in Washington, DC. But absolutely just Andrew is one of the sharpest. Just check out his end of the year reading list in case you doubt me. But they’ll also be what we’re going to be changing this year is going to do micro events, most of our workshops are going to be sponsored one, two, up to four hour events from our partners. And so we have 19 different publishers, schools and ministries that have partnered together to bring in just the best content, we think of any conference out there, their best teachers, their best writers, Zondervan will be graciously sponsoring both me and Chris watkyn. I’ll be talking about my Tim Keller book, Chris will be talking about biblical critical theory. You guys are getting a preview of this, because you’ll be listening to this Lord willing in 2022 before we even have announced this whole concept for 2423, which it’ll, it’ll be out there depending on when you’re listening to this for after, but it’ll be in mid January, when we announce all that. So yeah, this was been this has been a massive effort throughout 2022 to pull off and let’s just give a little Yeah, God out there to our good friend and colleague and Westray for her work, exciting,

Melissa Kruger
beautiful reflection of everything we all hope TGC will be Yeah, we have multiple seminaries from all over the country, different denominations, different publishers. And it really is what we all really believe in is to have a gathering of people, you know, who love Jesus, and yet have different perspectives on things. So

Collin Hansen
unified, unified in the gospel, but not uniform, and exactly how we express that. That is what TGC has always been, it has always been a network of networks. And at a time, when it feels like there is so fractured so much fracturing, we think that this event is going to be an incredibly encouraging reminder of God’s unifying work of the gospel. So that’s a major highlight.

Melissa Kruger
Can we just say, by the way, so when you say, well, TGC thinks this. We just correct that a little bit.

Collin Hansen
Because it that easy, Melissa? Can we just declare it here in this podcast? Just say,

Melissa Kruger
maybe they’ll listen,

Collin Hansen
if they clear this up once and for all. This is a formal statement from the gospel coalition’s vice president of content and editor in chief. I will say, if the gospel coalition, says it in our foundation documents in our confessional statement in our theological vision for ministry, that is the gospel coalition. Beyond that, we have a wide variety of voices, speaking to a wide variety of issues, doing our best to try to encourage the church and equip the church in many different ways. But yes, the only times we speak as an organization are in those foundation documents. So yeah, thanks for clarifying that, Melissa,

Melissa Kruger
the rest of the time making everyone angry and upset in some way.

Collin Hansen
For you, our wonderful listeners in this podcast, transition to talking about how they can support us, Melissa, and it’s a perfect transition.

Melissa Kruger
This is what we do. We want to bring family together. We

Collin Hansen
bring the family together, just like Thanksgiving. It’s just it’s kind of it’s kind of a crazy. It’s kind of a crazy family. We got a lot of crazy uncles,

Melissa Kruger
and I actually believe more people believe in this than that. Sometimes we get to hear because I do think I talked to a lot of women who were like and a lot of Then, who loves the good faith debates who love actually hearing that unit? Unity without uniformity, that exact concept. And that is what we we hope to, just in a lot of ways celebrate that the gospel is good, we need it. And we are individuals walking together, trying to obey Jesus and all but all the ways. And so that’s our hope. And we’re here really trying to serve the church and provide resources that churches can’t always do. And so

Collin Hansen
that, but support, not supplant, but support the church.

Melissa Kruger
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Because, you know, we’ve all seen every church can’t review all the books that come out. And that’s what we have great, Ivan. Great, I don’t think you’d like me, Klein

Collin Hansen
was better than Ivan the Terrible. So Well, that’s true. That’s true.

Melissa Kruger
That’s true. But you know, it’s exciting to get to see what I think we have an insider view on what TGC is doing worldwide, too. We just had a we just had an all staff call. And I love so encouraged by what’s going on, not just in America, but really, all around the world. It’s hard to believe how some of these articles can get in places that sometimes people can’t get with the gospel. And I find it so encouraging, when you look back, and when you think about TGC. What encourages you about the work we’re doing?

Collin Hansen
Well, you know, a lot of a lot of what people seem to notice would be some of the controversial articles, maybe because they liked them, maybe because they hate them. Most of what we do, is things like our full Bible Commentary, perhaps even by the end of this year, if not early next year, we will have a complete online free Bible Commentary written by the best experts on those books of the Bible around the world. So you can go back to the archives of Nancy Guthrie has helped me teach the Bible podcast you’re preparing to teach a Bible study you’re doing in a small group, let alone preaching a sermon preaching a series teaching through a book of the Bible. Now you’ve got you’ve got these interviews from Nancy, there, you can pair it with these theological commentaries. Shout out to Phil Thompson out there for his amazing work on them. And then combine them then with our dozens and dozens and dozens of theological essays that we’ve also produced out there on a wide variety of topics this year. I remember I had a question about the Fatherhood of God, Google, Google, Google, you know, and boom, where do I end up top result, the Gospel coalition, theological essay, on the Fatherhood of God. And so that’s, that’s a lot of what we actually do to serve church leaders. And my church leaders, we mean, you’re, you’re in a BSF, study out there, or you’re just you’re leading a small group, from your church, or you’re, you’re trying to think of what you’re homeschooling your kids, or you’re just trying to do family discipleship with your kids, or Yeah, you’re a professor, or you’re a pastor, or you’re an elder in your church. All of you are a church leader, because you are responsible for caring for other people, teaching them to obey everything that Jesus has commanded. So that’s what we’re trying to do is support you in that, and I’m especially excited this year about the work that we have on the commentaries and the essays. What about you, Melissa? Something that stands out, you’re excited about?

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, actually, I mean, I have to say, a lot of what I’m excited about is what you just talked about, because I was that woman, Lady and Bible study in a living room for 12 years. And you know, you’re not you don’t have a book budget when you are that woman getting a little Bible study. Yeah. And commentaries are expensive. And so the fact that they are free on TGC, that you can come get them and get all these resources right there. It’s pretty amazing to me. Yeah, I tell people over and over like, this is all here. It’s it’s all free. Use it. You know, it’s, it’s hard to the people, the individuals who wrote them, the fact that they’re all allowed to be on our site, it’s just pretty remarkable. I

Collin Hansen
read, well read through the through through the Gospel of Matthew, and then you read through a commentary and then all of a sudden, oh, there’s an embedded 360 degree image of the amount of follows that you can see right there. That’s part of what the internet allows you to do that you can’t do in a book. It’s a beautiful thing. Not only that, but of course, it goes places that the book can’t go. Anyway. Yes, it’s all here. And it’s free to you, the end user,

Melissa Kruger
and I think also the worldwide things that are here. At mean, I’m really I really am excited about the Russian and Ukraine websites that have gone up this year. What a, what a joy to think the words being written in many different places are going all over the world because in fact, we’re also translating things from our other tDCS to come on the American side. So we’re Yeah, we get to learn from Christians and other cultures, and hear from different perspectives all over the world, even in the States. And so it’s not just, it’s not just articles from the States going out. I think maybe people don’t know that we’re also receiving articles in that get translated for us from churches all around the world. And I think that’s a beautiful thing. It’s kind of amazing.

Collin Hansen
You have any you have any room left in any of your women’s cohorts for 23? Melissa, you guys already sold all

Unknown Speaker
those out? Oh, we’re full pletely full. All right, tune back

Collin Hansen
in 2020 for

Unknown Speaker
the fall in the fall. Okay. So this will

Collin Hansen
be how to teach the Bible. What are the cohort options? Okay.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, I didn’t teach the Bible. So Okay.

Collin Hansen
Well, those are there is a there is a fee that comes with those. But again, what you get from those is absolutely tremendous. I think about my, my, we changed churches this year, my wife is now and women’s ministry, and the thought of her being able to participate in something like a like a women’s cohort on how to teach the Bible, that is, money well spent, whether it’s from my church leaders or, or from us, as a family simply to invest in her, her developing abilities as a teacher of God’s Word. So well, look at this point, if you are still listening to us, then you are definitely the kind of person who wants to support TGC. financially. Everything that we’re talking about here, the fact that we’re able to just have this conversation is thanks to you, thanks to your generous support, in obedience to God’s God’s call of generosity to support us in this work so that we can support you. And so we can support other church leaders, we can go out there and we can find the best material the best resources, we can direct you to the best books, whatever to be able to help you to grow in your walk with the Lord. So few different ways some calls to action and how you can support us you can become a monthly giver, to TGC, just go to tgc.org/give. God a special benefit to everybody here listening to this episode of gospel bound with special guest, Melissa Kruger of let’s talk, you sign up for $25 per month or more. And we will send you copies of my book gospel bound, written with Sarah’s alstrom. And also Melissa’s book growing together, so $25 a month sign up to do that, we’ll send you copies of both of those books gratefully. Second, you can also give a one time gift would love that we could use that support. And there’s another way you can support us, you don’t have to give us any money to do this one. Just subscribe, you can still do this with let’s talk because that material is going to be useful to people around the world for years to come. You can support our podcasts, subscribe to them, leave a rating and a review. All this helps more people too, who are searching for hope in this wilderness of this fallen world. To find gospel centered resources, like the interviews, we do a gospel bond and the conversations at let’s talk so few different ways that folks can support us. And hey, like you drop us a line about an interview that you enjoyed or conversation you enjoyed. It’s a great encouragement. Also, you know, like gospel about I love to get recommendations. So be the kind of person who gives me those great book recommendations. So I can do great interviews with the author’s.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah. Yeah, that’s great. And we thank you. We really do. Yes, it is a joy to get to do what we do. And we’re thankful to get to do it. So one thing we always do, and let’s talk is we share a favorite thing. So my question for you since it’s Christmas, do y’all have a favorite family tradition?

Collin Hansen
You enjoy? Oh, man, well, you know, this year, this year, it was simply the kids. Like when we said we didn’t, we didn’t know if we were going to decorate the tree that night. They just started crying, which I’m kind of noticing. They just do all the time if they don’t get what they want. And it’s working and working. Well. You know, we do this tickle fight thing where I run around the house and I tickle my kids and I and I told them you know, I’m not sure if I’m able to do it and then they just started crying. So we, but it didn’t seem to be manipulative, or at least it was very effective. If it was but So bottom line, it just we we have the music we go pick out the tree, which was very expensive. is here, and we, and we decorate it. And but that’s one of those things as a father where I don’t care how much it costs because of what it means to the kids. And now they’ve got all the little ornaments that they’ve made fry in school with their pictures on them, and they love to see them and they love to bring them out and they love them. So I guess what I’m saying this as I like, as they’re getting older, they have a sense of traditions. Yeah. Which is really cool.

Melissa Kruger
It really is. And what’s cute is how they become six years old again, even when they’re 22. When you start decorating the tree, like the excitement is still there, and you get to see and remember, is really, it’s really the best thing. Yeah,

Collin Hansen
that’s great. Well, what about a book favorite book that you want to

Melissa Kruger
laugh that my favorite book of the year was Hannah Coulter? I can’t believe I hadn’t read it. Have you not read it yet? And I kind of put it off. Yeah, cuz everybody tells you books are good. Sometimes you’re like, because everybody’s telling me it’s good. I’m not gonna really like it. I loved it. I mean, I was weeping at the

Collin Hansen
mom book right there. I mean, it’s for anybody that has a mom book.

Melissa Kruger
It was it just was, yeah, the themes of aging and you’re watching life go by. Beautiful is beautiful. So I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed it.

Collin Hansen
Yeah. Well, you got I mean, I gotta give a shout out. I didn’t get to mention this earlier, but I can’t recall. Melissa, have you read Hilary Mantel’s Thomas Cromwell series? No. All right, there’s your assignment then for 2023 You gotta read it. We lost Hillary mental this year. Sadly, she died. But my gosh, one of the most amazing reads of my life, the mirror and the light. The conclusion of the Thomas Cromwell series? Is this is historical fiction. So you know, we’re not, we’re not exactly, exactly surprised by what happens. So volume one.

Unknown Speaker
Volume One

Melissa Kruger
was like already near the end? Why?

Collin Hansen
Well, let’s see. Yeah, so and the first book very long, but the first book ends with the execution of Thomas Moore. And then the second book ends with these much shorter execution of anvil Lin. And the third and so the execution of Thomas Cromwell. And

Melissa Kruger
happy topics con

Collin Hansen
like, Well, I mean, I am not alone. Sometimes my my book recommendations will be a little bit off the wall. But when your first two books in the series, tragedy, I’m an inner Russian, but not have one of the invading types. Let’s just be clear. The Literary Russia, the literary Russians, not that not the not they get sent to the Siberia, Siberia, not to the front. But yeah, so that I mean, it is the first two books both won the Booker Prize in fiction, like the top award in fiction. So I think I’m on pretty good ground here. And the third one, I will say, as a character exploration, it is definitely on or surpassed the level of, of Kristen LaFrance daughter that we mentioned earlier, Signet inset some classic three volume series. But Thomas Cromwell, you’ll appreciate this, Melissa, I think I have never identified with a literary historical character, the way I have with Thomas Cromwell, which now for any of you who have actually read the series has given you very serious doubts about Me. But it is, I do think that’s the central theme of the series is, it’s so real precisely because he is a complex character. You cannot tell exactly what, what does he believe. I mean, I think at his core, he is deeply convicted. He is a deeply convicted Protestant, evangelical Christian, but he lives at in a hyper political, he works in a hyper political time, and situation that no one could successfully navigate, just witness all the wives of Henry the eighth. And so he plays a significant role in that. But I’ve just, I mean, I think it’s more it’s less about me, it’s more about credit to Hillary mentelle for making this historical figure come alive. In the most remarkable of ways it probably also because I’m getting ready to spend five weeks in Europe this summer, literally living in for four weeks in Cambridge in the same house you lived in.

Melissa Kruger
I I need to go back and read NVivo because I’m gonna be struggling with severe covetous.

Collin Hansen
That’s true. You wrote that book on envy while you were in that house. Actually,

Melissa Kruger
that’s true. I didn’t put that together. But now you’re saying and I’ll be at Tyndale house and gets to say at Hawthorne house, which is the most lovely British Home in Cambridge. and get to walk the cam and go to places that are just delightful to to go. I’m excited for y’all.

Collin Hansen
A lot to be thankful for. As I look back in 2022 Thank you for listening to gospel bound. Thank you for years of support of Let’s Talk. Thank you for encouraging us in our comments. We’ve received many of them in person at our conferences speaking around the country, your comments that you leave on the podcast and just share with us through the website. Again, we’d love for you to help other people to find those podcasts are rating and reviewing them. We welcome you to become a monthly donor of TGC $25 or more, we’ll send you those books tgc.org/give. And we’ll just conclude with a Merry Christmas, Happy New Year wherever you’re listening to this podcast. We look forward to joining you again next year. And while you’re washing the dishes or commuting or working out or wherever you enjoy your podcasts.