Everything Sad Is Untrue

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Collin Hansen
Welcome to Gospelbound, a podcast from The Gospel Coalition for those searching for resolute hope in an anxious age. I’m your host, Colin Hansen. And each week I’m joined by insightful guests to talk about their written work and how the gospel applies to all of life. Together. We keep looking until we see God working. Wherever you’re listening. Welcome. I’m glad you’re here for today’s conversation. You’ll laugh you’ll cry, you’ll shout hallelujah. It’s hard to describe the exact experience of reading Daniel, new areas, everything sad is untrue. I can’t say I’ve read anything like it before. It’s coming of age memoir. It’s a Christian testimony. It’s a refugees inside look at religion and geopolitics. It’s the anguished crab, a boy separated from his father and the only world he knew and loved a world that he’s not even sure he can remember the air he writes that sadness turns perfectly normal people into poets. Well, then you can call him Robert Frost because everything sad is untrue will bring you to tears writing as his younger self lends tension and anguish to new areas already dramatic story of escape from Iran. He writes this about his mother’s working with immigration officials, quote, It was like sticking a wrinkly dollar into a candy machine over and over and having it spit the dollar out over and over for a year with a gun to your head. From his child’s perspective. Daniel observes that Americans quote, think we’re bad people who will come and take their stuff. Like when I won the tetherball tournament at recess against Trevor, and I wouldn’t have if I hadn’t been there at all. And quote, it’s not all sad, though. I laugh every time I think about Daniel’s father visiting him in Oklahoma, and insisting that he can speak English while talking to Daniel in front of his class in Farsi. But it’s Daniel’s mother, who is the hero of this book, which released in 2020. It was named a book of the year but the New York Times, NPR and the Wall Street Journal, her conversion was a death sentence in Iran. So the family fled without her baffled husband. Really? Have I read such a powerful witness to the power of the gospel? Near he writes this, how can you explain why you believe anything? So I just say what my mom says when people ask her, she looks them in the eye with a begging hope that they’ll hear her. And she says, because it’s true. Why else would she believe it is true, and it’s more valuable than even million dollars and gold coins and 1000s of acres of Persian countryside and 10 years of education to get a medical degree and all your family and a home and the best cream puffs at OLFA. And maybe even your life. My mom wouldn’t have made the trade otherwise. And quote Daniel Nari joins me now and gospel bound to discuss love justice, eschatology and the widespread acclaim for his work. Daniel, thank you for joining me.

Daniel Nayeri
Thank you. Let’s quite the introduction. Thank you very much.

Collin Hansen
Okay Daniel, when did you know you needed to write this book?

Daniel Nayeri
Quite quite early on. Actually, I remember in middle school, I was actually I went to go see if my friend Elvis McBride would come out and play soccer. And he’s while he’s putting his shoes on taking forever to tie these laces. His mother is kind of doing the due diligence of like, Who’s this kid who wants to play with my, my son? And so she’s asking me, you know, questions about myself and my family. And when that happens very quickly, the thread starts to unravel in terms of the story gets more and more complicated. And I you know, and so I got very practiced in those contexts of having to tell my family story about my mom’s conversion and Iran and being refugees and all this stuff very quickly, and I would tell and retell the story and sometimes I would be so bored, I would try to find new ways of telling it like what’s the funniest way I can tell the story? What’s the saddest, the most action packed? And, and I sort of credit that I really fell in love with telling stories that way, and realizing that you can tell the same events in such different ways and have such different impact. So swing around when I was 12, I was the kid who, you know, you would go around and you know, what do you want to be when you grow up and there was astronauts and quarterbacks and I knew pretty early on I was gonna be an astronaut, a quarterback but writer was was pretty good. So I decided that was it for me.

Collin Hansen
This something you wrote here about your mother, quote, The Legend of my mom is that she can’t be stopped Not when you hit her, not when a whole country full of goons puts her in a cage night, even if you make her poor and try to kill her slowly in the little by little poison of sadness. And the legend is true, I think because she’s fixed her eyes on something beyond the rivers of blood to a beautiful place on the other side, and quote, what did she think of the attention from the book?

Daniel Nayeri
I think she likes it better than I do. You know, she’s the, she’s the hero of that story, in the sense that, you know, I think in that period in your life, you know, your mom is sort of infallible. And so, and she gets she gets that, that, that lens in, in the book as well. You know, so, I think I think she’s, she’s very pleased with it. She read, she read the first draft, and there were elements that she contends are not as accurate as she would like. And I think this is sort of in theme with the book, everybody remembers these things so differently. Specifically, I think, you know, in with her dad, you know, even put in the author’s note that she would have had me sort of cheat. And you go, yeah, maybe you know, if you if I was older and seeing this gentleman with an adult’s lens, I may have had a very different perspective than like a child who’s afraid of this glowering old guy. So in that sense, we have we have differing memories, but But yeah, she’s she was very happy with it.

Collin Hansen
Now, that leads to my next question, which was, what did you always plan to write? You mentioned 12 years old, did you always plan to write in the voice of your younger self?

Daniel Nayeri
Oh, not at all. No, I the original draft of this book was was an adult memoir. And you can imagine trying to write, you know, the United States and Iran have dealt with, you know, a long history and along and embroiled, I think of them actually, as a siblings who will never quite understand one another. And so the original were the was this literary attempt, as an adult to look back on those events that happened, you know, in my childhood. And what happens when you speak to an adult as an adult, is you have to have entire chapters about the geopolitical ramifications of the Islamic Revolution, that dynamic at the time, when the first Gulf War of where Iran stacked, having just come out of the war with Iraq, these are really complicated and dynamic elements, they have to be explained, because as an author, you can’t go in and assume that even though your author is an adult, they’ll know all the salient facts. And so the way I remember that draft is that it was fairly cold, it was very precise, it was very information rich, but it was very sentiment poor. And so when it when I finally shift, I was like, Okay, let’s go to the toilet, the 12 year old is not thinking of the the geopolitical landscape. And as a result, I got to avoid a lot of that and kind of cut to the part that in for this story mattered the most, which was this, this sort of very, the emotional core of it, if you will, and as an adult, I will also say, you know, coming of age, post coming of age, I think every adults task is to do find a way to metabolize some of the damage that they may have incurred as a child, right? If this is the work of an adult is to, is to not to use too many highfalutin words, but like sublimate the traumas, I guess we would say in modern language of your childhood, so that you’re not passing down the same chaos into your child’s life, if you are? Well, I mean, I suppose happens all the time. But it’s a sad, it’s a sad loop. And so, having spent a lot of my 20s, thinking about how to work through that I didn’t quite have the same raw reaction to those experiences, like I understand my father’s position in a lot of ways. Now, back then I didn’t understand him at all. He was a mystery and a tragedy. And by going back to the 12 year old version, it allowed me to speak about that, without all the nuance of well, and I completely understand that socio economic forces are applying themselves.

Collin Hansen
Qualification to death basic.

Daniel Nayeri
Exactly. No. 12 year old qualifies to death.

Collin Hansen
Yeah. So was that your idea? Or did it? I mean, I know you’re a publisher as well. So we just heard somebody else recommend that shift.

Daniel Nayeri
Yes, well, so the drafts were, you know, emotionally dead information rich literary novel, and I didn’t like it. So then, four years of that, I threw all that away and started an essay collection, sort of big profile sections, and wrote a few of those. And then as I was, I was just complaining nonstop to a friend one day in a coffee shop. And she is an editor, a really insightful one. And she sort of just goes, you know, if you were 12 when all this happened, why don’t you just write it from that perspective? And weirdly enough, it had never occurred to me to be myself, but 20 years back, you know, that’s such a weird, weird notion. I don’t and so I, I started, I went home that day, started it, and it just immediately started to flow out.

Collin Hansen
Well, I suspected as much you know, it’s fun to talk author to author, editor to editor or publisher to publisher, you can kind of geek out on this stuff. But I wonder if in the back of your head or in your editor, friend’s head was Harper Lee. This is exactly what happened to her, which we now know because of Go Set a Watchman. Yeah, we had no idea Go Set a Watchman was her first attempt at To Kill a Mockingbird. And the shift was go back to your younger self. So as soon as I was reading your book, I thought this is To Kill a Mockingbird. Yeah. Anyway.

Daniel Nayeri
So a funny should say that that was the summer that Go Set a Watchman came out.

Collin Hansen
Well, brilliant. I suspect it as much but I wanted to confirm directly with you. But that’s I mean, and of course, what it allows you to do, is allows you to write in in an accessible voice, but about a hero, your mother. And of course, that’s exactly To Kill a Mockingbird as well. So and that’s good company. That is always that is a good company to be in. You know, it is a very personal and intimate book. And I’m wondering about reaction from other friends, and especially family, you know, the books been out a couple years. And when if you’ve heard from people like Mrs. Miller, or Jim and Jean Dawson, or anyone else in the book.

Daniel Nayeri
I would have loved to have heard from Jim and Jean Dawson. Unfortunately, they passed. And that was I would have loved for them to have seen at least some tribute to the work they did.

Collin Hansen
They were sponsoring your family. Is that right? Kind of essentially putting themselves up to take, I mean to say will vouch for them?

Daniel Nayeri
Yeah, I mean, it’s a shocking idea. They didn’t know us at all. So on paper, you’re talking about a single mom of two kids under the age of 10. Yeah. And they, you know, this program in the United States was that they would sponsor us and when you sponsor a family, you’re co signing for them. So I mean, if you know, if we had come and sort of really been had been a negative experience, I mean, we wreck their credit, we wrecked their, you know, a lot of their retirement. So they really, it was a real leap of faith for them to they stayed in their house, I forget the exact like, I think six weeks, seven weeks, basically long enough to get a driver’s license, get find a find an apartment, that sort of thing. It’s an incredibly important period of time. And you know, to have to open up your home and your life like that is really powerful. So they have I did speak to the teacher who inspired Mrs. Miller. Yeah, she was she was excited. She was a wonderful teacher. I didn’t put this in the book. But she one of the reasons she was wonderful was because she wouldn’t put up with any of my overactive over talkative self she was. So her standard was was quite high. And I really needed a teacher to break me out of you know, what I didn’t call back then the 8020 rule, like I understood, if I did the homework on the bus, then I can get a I could get an A. And she was like, this isn’t this isn’t up to your standard. And she was very exacting, and I loved her for that.

Collin Hansen
The scene of you giving her a hug on the occasion of your dad’s visit is just one of the beautiful highlights. Any other any other feedback that’s been notable from some of the people who find themselves named or otherwise in the book.

Daniel Nayeri
I mean, it’s been a lot of it’s been a lot of positive feedback. I, for the most part, avoid all reviews and all like, I’ve never been on the Amazon page other than to like, for your very brief glimpses of something, but I won’t I won’t read any of those starred reviews Good Reads is a place that would shut my brain down for six months if I went. So do you think that’s because it is so personal? No, it’s all books. It was all books I writing? Yeah. Is that personal, I even the good ones. It’s not as if I’m sort of sort of super fragile and want only good. Even the good reviews can sometimes get into your head. And I sort of just try to try to do the work and stay far away from I love when someone has a very strong take. I want that. But fundamentally, I am a believer that at that point. It’s theirs to do what they’re doing with. And I’m almost irrelevant. And the only thing I can do is kind of get the yips for the next one, you know?

Collin Hansen
It definitely messes with the artistic mindset that you need to be able to continue to grow and develop as a writer. It’s no doubt about that. Do you have any readers back in Iran?

Daniel Nayeri
My dad read it had it had it sort of read to him. It’s not been translated into Farsi. And he had a friend read there’s a Turkish version that, you know, can sort of I go over there. So I’ve had, I’ve had several Iranian and then there’s a lot of Iranian immigrants who those are the ones when they email me that they do feel the best, I have to admit, because, you know, they could have just as easily been like, you have no idea what the cream puffs or their tastes like. Sorry.

Collin Hansen
You can just blame your 12 year old self.

Daniel Nayeri
That’s right. So you know, people, you know, as you know, anytime they’re familiar with it, they can, they can have a very stronger opinion in the other direction if just because that’s how humans are. So those, those validations are nice.

Collin Hansen
Now, Daniel, you do a lot of media, obviously, a lot of interviews like this, but then you’re talking to readers, book clubs, libraries, schools, places like that. What do people ask you about most?

Daniel Nayeri
The two things they asked about most is, one is Did my mom have a happy ending? And the answer to that is yes. And the other is, although it wasn’t an eventual. But and the other is, you know, they sometimes ask a lot about the what they kind of separate into two chunks, where they sort of think of it as there’s the story chunks, and then the the silly stuff, like what they think of as the poop stories, so to speak. And I think I would ever compare myself to the great American, the Melville, but you know, how sometimes people will describe Moby Dick as like, the story. And then there’s the not tying chapters. Think of it a little bit like that, where they really think that I decided to put some, you know, they were like, so did you put put that in for the young readers, you know, to make it exciting? And I said, no one is I never talked to me, there’s a lot of very strong thematic connection to between the silly and sublime, you know, in the sense that there was, you know, there was a lot of stories about people and one of the things I tried to explain to you, anytime I have a younger audience is a sort of describe, Salman Rushdie, he does this and one of his books, Midnight’s Children, as well describe the concept of, you know, defecation, whatever metabolism, let’s just say that, as such an important metaphor and theme for the sort of the internal workings of, of the character. And in some ways, you know, he, this young man is trying at his core to assess why the adults in his life, why some of them have expressed, experienced so much pain as children. And, and as a result, sort of affects so much pain in the lives of others. And then he sort of seeing his mother and some of the other adults in that have also experienced this, but have metabolized that work have sort of taken in the pain, and processed it, so to speak, into art, or into into compassion and to love like this is the fundamental function of a human right as a nobler calling. And, you know, in the book, it’s, of course, from a tools perspective, so it’s not going to have like, you know, the Renaissance thinkers of like Pico della Mirandola, right. But he’s got this essay, that is called the orations, on the dignity of man. And in it, he describes that, you know, humankind can behave as the animals and as the beasts do, or they can sort of take on these nobler callings and become as the angels, and he’s sort of got a hierarchy of how humans can sort of just behave. And, and I think, I think it’s, you know, an older narrator, in this book would probably find a lot to read in that in that essay, in the sense of he is, in his childish way, expressing that in the poop stories and the stories of like, some of these people are just behaving as animals, they’re just taking in the food and putting out the processed food, and then and then some people are actually, you know, at a nobler calling, not just not just walking around eating and dedicating his animals taking and, and trying to organize some of this chaos, via, you know, the sort of mercy and grace. And I think, you know, again, your 12 year old can’t say it that way. But, but he is he is taking that on so they’re not just, you know, chapters about whaling, I don’t think I think they’re theirs. They’re part of the book.

Collin Hansen
It’s interesting that people ask you about, I mean, I would imagine people that ask you about the scatological and that makes a lot of sense with a 12 year old narrator. But it’s interesting that people that asked you so much about your mother’s happy ending because yes, of course the situation with your father the divorce, and then of course just the pot the grinding poverty in the in the Call from medical professional things like that are profound. But you do cast it as I mean, her conversion is so much a part of that. And so, in a sense you are you’re casting the happy ending in eschatological terms. So from the we’ve gone from the scatological, to the eschatological. So I do people, the people gloss over that dynamic in terms of a more temporal solution to our circumstances, or how do you interact with audiences about that dynamic

Daniel Nayeri
Submariners do I think I think you know, they really just want her to ride off into the sunset in a sports car, right? Like they really just would like her to have had, you know, that kind of victory in the moment. And as you said, the whole book, you know, the even the epigraph of the book is entirely about the understanding of our present through a hopeful future. So, yeah, I would, I would say she sort of that was the that was really the fundamental theme of the book. So I try not to be too, you know, I don’t beat people over the head with that theme. I just sort of say, Yeah, you know, life, you know, both both in the temporal, but fundamentally, you know, in the eternal, the, you know, the more important measure things do, you know, look up?

Collin Hansen
Yeah, well, I guess, you know, of course, I forgot, then, then your stepfather coming in.

Daniel Nayeri
Right, And he’s the main question they’re asking, right, yeah.

Collin Hansen
Is it still going on that kind of thing in there? But yeah, I think because I’m so I mean, I know plenty of people who read the Chronicles of Narnia and don’t have any idea what they’re pointing toward. So plenty people can appreciate in the same way that I’m sure many people can appreciate your story from many different your book from many different angles. But I think I mean, my next question was going to be about some of your theological influences in this book. But clearly, I would say among the kind of people who are listening to this podcast, they’re going to immediately notice the connections token. And they’re, and they’re going to no notice that that is that has a that has an eschatological dimension to it, bro, just completely brilliant title, you do need to tell me a little bit about where that comes from. Because how many different layers? I’m used to titling stuff. And I am just so impressed by how many different layers there are. I mean, even just a theme of memory. Yeah, of course of what is true in this book, and you’re wrestling but then the eschatological dimension to it. There’s just Anyway, tell me a little bit about the evolution was that just came to you immediately, or did it wasn’t an evolutionary process.

Daniel Nayeri
It was an evolutionary process, in the sense that so at its basis, of course, it’s a reference to this moment in The Lord of the Rings where, you know, the heart of the book is centered, in my opinion, and Samwise Gamgee, this just lovely, naive, young Hobbit, and they’re at the moment of, of utter sadness, where they think this mission is just gone in all the wrong ways. And they and and they’ve, of course, lost their great but you know, fatherly, grandfatherly figure and Gandalf and, and so they’re kind of they’re sitting there. And they start in description if I’m far away from me, but if I recall, they hear the sound of laughter actually. And they see that Gandalf is alive. Sorry, spoilers, Lord of the Rings. Right. He’s come back. And, and, and Sam runs them and says, you know, Gandalf, Gandalf? You know, is everything sad going to become untrue? So everything sad will become untrue, was the very first quote because I just titled because I loved Sam wises question, it was so naive and beautiful and hopeful as if, like, everything, because this one important seminal sort of unhappy element had become untrue. He sort of asks for all of it, and you and I love that I love that a child knows what ought to be. And so, so initially, it was that and it was a reference to this kind of hopeful possibility. It was everything said will become untrue. And then I started to think about it from the perspective and the voice of my narrator. And my narrator is a little bit more presumptuous than Sam wise. For him, I think his mental state would be that it will be than it already is. And so everything said is untrue, is the was the shift that the title took, which is true in the sense that I just described it, but it’s also completely untrue in the sense that in the present tense, there are very unhappy things that are exist. And so I wanted that I wanted the reader to immediately have that questioning. You know that That’s sort of like wrinkling their nose going, Wait, is this what kind of title is this this title? I mean, it’s very clearly no one who’s alive right now would say everything said is untrue. And that’s the position that you enter the book with. And the position that our narrator immediately reacts to, because he’s at the very outset, saying everyone thinks all persons are liars, and lying is a sin. And so he’s reacting to you questioning the veracity of his title, you know. So, by putting you into that dubious reader position, he’s sort of then able to react to your suspicion. And he’s a character who’s constantly reacting to your suspicion and wanting to wanting to prove the precision of everything he’s saying. He, he speaks and restates things over and over again, to make them more precise, because he’s terrified that you think he’s a liar.

Collin Hansen
And terrified that he doesn’t remember correctly himself. Exactly. As the memory slips further and further away as he adjusts to this new environment. Were you in New York on 911?

Daniel Nayeri
I was and Oklahoma during the Obama City bombing.

Collin Hansen
Oh goodness. The problem have you gone on this national tour right now? No, I Oh, the reason I ask is because that was Tim Keller’s illustration from the 916 2001. Sermon.

Daniel Nayeri
Yeah. And I heard it there as well, so.

Collin Hansen
Yeah. Yeah. So I was wondering, I mean, that’s that’s kind of well, let’s just ask a little bit about your theological influences. I mean, it is for for, for what we’re talking about, of this scatological, and this young adult memoir and whatnot. There’s profound theology in exploration of the relationship between love and justice. You right, love is empty. Without justice, justice is cruel. Without love, I just shared a little bit with the listeners, pulling your theological influences contributing to the book.

Daniel Nayeri
This is where I become a little bit of a fanboy. And, and I mean, this sincerely, I come by it honestly, too, in the sense that I, I’ve been attending Redeemer since 2000. When I went to New York. So in terms of influences, I don’t know if you can put a plural on that. I it’s, it’s Tim Keller, do you know, a one and then there’s a good country mile down the list? And then it’s sort of everybody else? And I say that? I know. I you know, in the sense that I, he may, he may not prefer that. But I think though, I think the world of it. I you know, in the sense that almost the my entire I mean, I’ve read I read you know plenty of others, but never sort of onboarded them the way I think I would did I mean we’re talking about basically Daniel from 18 to 38. Wow, so 18 to 38. On a weekly drip from Mr. Keller, having read all his books, I can’t really, I can’t really say there’s any other influences as has struck, and the book should probably almost everything I write honestly, I’ve written books about like, little like Alchemist, children and fantasy worlds. And still, they should all begin with, with, you know, with apologies and permission from Tibco. In the sense that I think there’s entire sections that are, you know, past, the past that you said, you know, the paradox of love and law, I think is very much you know, even the you know, the parent, the he has a really great example of how one sees the future effects their present. He has, you know, I think there’s a section in the book that talks about the future hope, idea is very much something I think about from from his perspective. Golly, there’s there are so many. Well, let me epigraph of the love my love of the brothers care matzah of Yeah, it’s from it’s from from a bulletin from redeemer in 2000. I think eight and I still have it.

Collin Hansen
Well, that’s one of one of the Tim’s most oftenly cited Dostoevsky quotes or sections from from BROTHERS KARAMAZOV is also in the 916 2001 sermon. Same one is Tolkien. I know it is well, which was then repeated five years later at the downtown anniversary with the families. Yeah, service. Well, I mean, one of the one of the great lines in here again, referring to your unstoppable mom, the quote, The anticipation that the God who listens in love will one day speak justice, the hope that some Final Fantasy will come to pass that will make everything said untrue. You can see in there as well talking on fairy stories. So another another favorite there as well, I mean, I got a final three. But one other question is what’s next? What are you working on now? What’s next?

Daniel Nayeri
Well, the next book that comes out is actually it’s funny. In the fall I have a paperback reissue of a book that was four novellas and if you want to read more of sort of my, what I wrote a farm allegory, I described it once as a farm allegory of everything Tim Keller ever taught me.

Collin Hansen
Orwell meet Keller, is that what we’re talking about?

Daniel Nayeri
It’s actually it’s called that it’s about a farmer who grows toys and the toys come up, alive and full of joy. And, and this rancher who grows people, and they come up like zombies, soulless and horrible. And so the rancher lays siege to the farm and, you know, wants to know what the what the farmer is doing.

Collin Hansen
There’s definitely some Orwell in that one.

Daniel Nayeri
But now that the next big novel is is a coming out in March, it’s called, it’s basically I joke around it’s the music man set on the Silk Road in the 11th century. About in some ways, it’s you know, this one was a letter to my mom, I think this one’s the next one’s a bit of a you know, exploration of my dad’s bombastic personality. He’s this character who is a bit of a portly huckster, he goes from village to village swindling people along the Silk Road, and at the very beginning, he saves this boy, a little monk who’s about to get stoned to death and, and, and so now he becomes a servant and interested in the relationship of this boy and this huckster is that the boy is a very serious young man and he sees this grown up as such a waste struggle is such a unserious liar of an individual who was willing to take on any religion to make the sale at any given moment. And, and so early in the, in the book, you you hear that all these villages that have swindle he’s swindled have hired a different assassin to come and kill this, man. And so what what happens is basically this comedic kind of romp across the Silk Road, the boy has to save his master over and over again. And really what you watch is their relationship as they become family. And how he the boy, who is the embodiment of the law, has to has this sort of learn love and in some ways the The Man Who is the Embodiment of this sort of lawlessness has to has to be you know, you also have to make steps toward the boy and so yeah, it’s called the many assassinations of Samir, the seller of dreams.

Collin Hansen
Okay. I love it. Well, I’m excited about it already. It reminds me of I’m thinking, if I liked the scene of your father visiting your classroom, in Oklahoma, then I’m gonna love this book and that, I think that was my favorite section of the whole book of just how just how unconcerned Your dad is by people’s impressions. You know, people’s. So the juxtaposition of your 12 year old self, who of course, it’s it’s peak cringe. Yeah, your dad is you know, and, and, and you’re uncomfortable about, you’re going to try to make your way in the worlds to try to figure everything out and you’re hinging everything on your dad, this mythical creature that you’ve been telling your your classmates about, and just that climactic moment where I realized in that moment, my dad does not speak English but he’s not he does not care one bit and charms everybody.

Daniel Nayeri
That’s wild. I wish I had that.

Collin Hansen
Oh, well, it’s a I mean, I started off the laughing the crying the shouting hallelujah. I don’t know how Daniel you manage well, it’s really it’s God’s story in your life to pull together so many threads that can tug on so many different emotions but it’s a profound story with significant theological formation to it as well as I think people have heard here some significant literary inspirations as well couldn’t couldn’t recommend the book more and I’ve got a final three with Daniel Nari on everything said is untrue. Just like to ask our guests these these questions first of all, how do you find calm in the storm?

Daniel Nayeri
Calm in the storm I like to make things I like to recently I like I really like to widdle and so I sort of I tried to I tried to get do anything cooking is another I try and and I’m not I can’t pretend like these are the results is absolutely irrelevant of how beautiful or perfect it is. I like to try to make things with my hands to calm myself down.

Collin Hansen
I like that. And where do you find good news today?

Daniel Nayeri
Only person to person. Only in the lives of the someone whose face I’m looking into I don’t see a lot of good news on a screen. But gosh, there’s a lot of good news when when you I think anytime I’m around someone, one of my go to questions is what are you most excited about? Yeah, I love watching them light up. I love watching them light up. I mean, sometimes it’s this weekend, I finally get to spend some time you know, who knows what just taking care of a chore that’s been, but they’re excited about it and there and it makes me really happy.

Collin Hansen
Love it. And then last question then Daniel. What’s the last great book you’ve read?

Daniel Nayeri
The last great book I read. If I if I’m being truly honest, it was Dino booze, Artie wrote a lovely book called The Bears famous invasion of Sicily. And it’s wonderful, quirky book from the 60s of a children’s book about King Leander the Bear King whose son was caught by hunters and as a result he sacked Sicily. And it’s historically accurate, I’m told, okay,

Collin Hansen
oh, wow. Okay. Daniel has been a delight. Thanks for being my guest here. If people aren’t excited to go out and read everything sad is untrue, then I don’t know what else to do. But we’ll look forward to to your work coming out in March as well. Give us that title again. On that one.

Daniel Nayeri
The many assassinations of Samir, the seller of dreams.

Collin Hansen
Wonderful. Thanks. Thanks for being my guest on gospel bound.

Daniel Nayeri
Thank you so much for having me.

Collin Hansen
Thanks for listening to this episode of gospel bound. For more interviews and to sign up for my newsletter. Head over to tgc.org/gospel bound rate and review gospel bound on your favorite podcast platform so others can join the conversation. Until next time, remember, when we’re bound to the gospel, we are bound in hope