Beautiful People Don’t Just Happen

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Collin Hansen
You are not in control. You never have been. And you never will be. That fact of life is tough for many of us to swallow and quote the cultural Air I Breathe has trained me to think that life should be more carefree predictable, and in control than it is and quote, says Scott Saul’s in his new book, beautiful people don’t just happen. Oh God redeems, regret, hurt and fear in the making of better humans. book published by Zondervan. Scott Saul’s a senior pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church in Nashville, Tennessee and author of six books, Scott writes with a kind of vulnerability that is not common, I find, at least for many authors, let alone pastors, let alone pastors in such large and influential congregations. He tells us that we can find him in the church basement with the marginal characters Jesus seemed to attract Scott admits, quote, he wounds us sometimes, but always and only to heal us. And quote, just look around the room sometime, when your churches sings it is well, you’ll notice that it’s those who suffered the most who sing the loudest, they have forsaken their need to control for the peace of faith. This guy joins me now on gospel bound to share what church members would be surprised to learn about their pastors, why deep faith feels like defeat, and how affliction can preach better than a sermon. Scott, thanks for joining me on gospel bound.

Scott Sauls
Thanks, Colin, what a great summary. I thought your words sounded familiar when you first started saying that I realized, Wait, you’re reading my words,

Collin Hansen
very intelligent man has said this before.

Scott Sauls
I’m the guy who, you know, if you asked me on Wednesday, what I preached last Sunday, I couldn’t tell you so

Collin Hansen
we trust the Holy Spirit to drive that application for us. Well, Scott, who did you have in mind when you were writing this book?

Scott Sauls
Well, you know, it was written right in the middle of the pandemic was when I started it. And you know, the dedication of the book, I think, answers the question, it really is for number one, people who sin, people who suffer and people who are afraid that’s number one. And group number two is those who have been called to show up for those people, whether it be pastors or counselors, or social workers, or some other helping profession, or just friends who, who show up for friends, or parents who show up for their kids, et cetera. And you know, it’s really a book about three pain points. You know, some have called it a book about suffering. But it’s really more than that, I think it’s a lot about guilt and shame and how the gospel addresses those, those pain points, as well as just the general hurts and specific hurt that comes from living in a fallen world and, and the fear that we all carry, because of how unstable and unfinished the world is, and we are and so so it’s really a call, or at least a desire to put out a clarion call to hope and maybe to put a $16 counselor in your hand and I look forward to the day when Amazon does that 99 cent Kindle special that they always seem to do because I I’m not in it for royalties or anything like that. I just, I just hope it’ll help. I hope it’ll help serve as a pastoral resource for people.

Collin Hansen
Well, you may not be in it for royalties, but you have produced a lot of books in a short period of time, these six books, would you say there’s an any particular overarching theme to this to your corpus?

Scott Sauls
To the whole collection? You know, I, I think probably from my first few, and really my, my, the one my fifth one, the one before this one, the theme has been navigating a polarized culture and unapologetic sort of Third Way apologetics, which, you know, your mentor in mind, Tim Keller, his fingerprints are all over, you know, anything that I’ve thought or written on those things. But I think, yeah, my first two and fourth, or I’m sorry, my first two in my fifth book are around those themes of, you know, how do we how do we cultivate the culture of our hearts and also, you know, our, how we conduct our lives in a climate like the one we find ourselves in politically and socially and, and otherwise and also inside the life of the church. And then once on leadership, which I think resonates with this one. It’s kind of the, the woundedness of of life, the pain points of life. One of those books is applied to leadership, but this particular latest one is more oriented toward general, you know, kind of in every one target group.

Collin Hansen
Well speaking, speaking of that leadership dimension of this you What do you think church members might be surprised most to learn about their pastor? is there’s a line in here that stood out to me when you said that pastors and addicts are more alike than different that deserves a little explanation, I think,

Scott Sauls
Well, I think that I think that probably the, the shortest version of the answer to that would be that we, we are sheep before we are shepherds, that we just like the members of our churches are not the Christ. We do not have saving capacity. We do not have healing powers, unless the Lord gives us those powers or entrust them to us in different ways. But you know, my summary of what it’s like, at least for me to be a pastor is captured in a paragraph that I’d be happy to read to you if you want. It’s pretty short. This is in I don’t know what page it’s on. But it says like anyone else we pastors believe and we doubt we listen patiently and we lose our tempers. We give selfless, selflessly and we act selfishly, we preach and we gossip. We pray and we sometimes cuss. We can be kind and hurtful, hopeful and cynical, tender and abrasive, loving and hateful, courageous and cowardly, faithful and frail, hardworking and lazy. Even at our best. We are a duplicitous bunch, as one pastor remarked to his sharpest critics, thank you for saying only that about me. Let me tell you, you don’t know the half of it. I think that’s what it’s like to be a pastor in my skin. At least I can’t speak for all pastors.

Collin Hansen
Yeah. Well, and maybe this relates to another line that stood out to me that I’d love to know more of what you mean here. I imagine it could be misinterpreted. And I’d love to hear your context behind it. You say this, quote, sometimes the deepest, truest faith feels more like defeat than it does victory? What do you mean?

Scott Sauls
I think the answer lies, Colin to that question in how the scriptures were delivered to us and where they came from. The earliest books of the Scripture were were written if we if we assume mosaic authorship, they were written in the context of slavery, and in the context of the desert, and wandering in the wilderness. And then we we fast forward to the later books in the Old Testament, and we get material that’s delivered to us by people who are in exile, having been taken captive by hostile foreign governments, like never can as Babylon and take lap pleasers as Syria. We find David running from King Saul, hiding in caves where he births some of the greatest songs and also running from his own son Absalom. While birthing some of the greatest, most magnificent Psalms, we fast forward to the New Testament, it’s written in the context of, you know, Nero’s persecution, much of it and just the general climate of persecution toward people of faith, who declare Jesus as Lord instead of Caesar is Lord. And so, bottom line, the scriptures, as a whole are given to us from a context of distress, and a context of being behind not ahead. In life and in the world. And in the context of guilt and shame and hurt and, and, and fear and, you know, even Christ, you know, crying out on the cross gives us a picture of how the truth of God has all been delivered to us about just the feelings of forsaken us. But I think the answer the question lies in what Paul reflected on, in light of his thorn in the flesh. When I’m weak than I’m strong. That’s when the power of God rests on me. That’s why I have come to the light and weakness, insult, hardship, persecution and difficulty for when I’m weak, then I’m strong. Or Romans five, we rejoice in our sufferings, which produce perseverance, character, hope, which does not disappoint. And so the scriptures are pretty loud, about faith, being on the ground at the hem of Jesus garment, rather than, you know, on the mountaintops of triumph. And there’s, in fact, humility is the greatest triumph and in the life of a believer and being brought low as the greatest triumph that we can experience.

Collin Hansen
You have a preacher’s knack for these arresting statements. And I have a journalist knack for wandering about them. poking them in some ways. You write this the thing God wants most from you, is an admission of you’re not enoughness I would love to know what you what you mean by that. It did make me wonder, not our holiness, not our worship, not our love for Him and our neighbors to two greatest commandments. Just tell us a little bit more what you mean.

Scott Sauls
what comes to mind as Isaias crisis in the temple in Isaiah chapter six where he sees The Lord and is a finds himself at the train of the Lord’s robe which, you know, the Hebrew translation of that could also be translated the him. You know, speaking of the hem of God’s garment, it’s there in the New Testament as well as the old and it’s at the hem of God’s garment in the temple that he beholds the glory of God and falls apart. And the thing that he calls curses down on is not his ears or his feet or his biceps, or, you know, his, his body type he calls curses down on his lips, which is the, the greatest part about Isaiah. He’s a prophet. We know what kind of wordsmith he was. We know how poetic he was, you know, we have the retrospect now of you know entire symphonies, like Handel’s Messiah being built around his prophecy, we have the retrospective, him being the most quoted Prophet and all of the Old Testament. Isaiah never saw any of the fruit of that in his lifetime. The moment he he said, Yes to God’s call, before God gave him the job description. And then right after he said yes to the job description, he didn’t have he got the job description, your congregation is going to be reduced by 90%. On day one, though, a 10th. Remain. And and that was his life. And and, and so, you know, there’s this arresting quote, speaking of arresting quotes that I borrowed from a pastor in Chattanooga named Joe Vinson, where he says that the defining feeling of faith is not strength, but dependent weakness, were to enter the kingdom like a child. You know, Jesus said that children are our greatest preachers, they are the greatest messengers and embodiment of what it looks like to live in the kingdom of God and children are needy, they’re messy, they’re impulsive, and impetuous, and selfish and all the rest. But ultimately, they’re dependent, and they know it. And so, however we can get in on that, I think will be the better for it.

Collin Hansen
So this is going to be an awkward transition, because next question was about Isaiah. But you notice similarities between Nietzsche and Isaiah, that requires some explanation that in light of what you just said, in there.

Scott Sauls
I did compare him to Ecclesiastes. You know, Ecclesiastes resonates with the existentialist philosophers. Okay? There’s a section about Nietzsche and music, and then there’s a section okay, it might be this. It’s not just our worst deeds, but even our righteous deeds that are problematic in God’s sight. If Isaiah had been born at a much later time, one might wonder if he had been reading the philosopher Frederick Nietzsche, who argued that even our best deeds have self centered motives behind them. According to Nisha, we do good not for the sake of the good, it’s good itself but for the sake of being noticed and applauded and of gaining more power. Our best virtues Nietzsche said, are less about serving others and more about securing a reward for ourselves. It’s a cynical view, to be sure. But it’s also hard to argue against as one theologian is similarly quoted as saying, the main thing between you and God is not so much your sins, it’s your damn double good works. And that’s John. John Gerstner. I think, though, it’s also important to recognize that, that Isaiah, in recognizing himself to be unholy is at the peak of his holiness. And if we track if we track the life and self awareness of the apostle Paul, even in his writings, the apostle Paul begins referring to himself as an apostle. And then later on, he refers himself to himself as the least of the apostles. And then later, the least of all the saints. And at the very end, at the height of his personal personal holiness, godliness, and virtue, and sanctification, he refers to himself as the chief of sinners. And so there’s, there’s this strange juxtaposed juxtaposition and but it’s so real and so discernible in Scripture, and maybe even in our own lives, that the more holy we get, the more like Christ we get, the less like Christ, we feel, which is an occasion to drive us into the place of humility, of introspection, of self examination of constantly inviting God to search us in our hearts. You know, I preached on the imprecatory Psalms last Sunday. And one of the things that I said to the congregation is, we need to be very, very careful about praying and preparatory Psalms against other people’s faults and sins, unless we’re not first willing to pray those same songs against our own faults and sins, just to keep Jesus’s teaching about logs and specs in their proper order. But I think the older and more mature we get in the faith, you know that the biggest center in the world is us. And that awareness actually becomes strangely a contributor to the growth of virtue in our lives. I see that in Tim, as I’m sure you do. You know, those few of us who’ve had the privilege Just knowing him personally and watching him behind the scenes, he’s he’s one of those megachurch pastors whose character did not get tarnished by big platform and ego but but, you know, he had the self awareness to lean even deep more deeply in to pursuing gospel virtue and humility and, and his private life reflects that.

Collin Hansen
And throughout the book, another one of Tim’s themes that I think people would would pick up on is that if our churches are not attracting the kind of people who Jesus attracted in his ministry, we must not be preaching the same message. Probably my favorite chapter of your book was to church basement. I think for other people who have grown up in different kinds of churches, I grew up in the United Methodist Church, you say church basement, immediately I can smell you know, I can smell that church basement. I just love you know, it’s tell us why you think we need more church basements?

Scott Sauls
Well, you know, it’s a, it’s a little it’s kind of a cheeky way of it’s sort of a cheeky entry point into the fact that oftentimes when recovery groups meet in church buildings, they meet in the church basement, and there’s a whole lot of honesty, and transparency and self disclosure that goes on in those recovery meetings, that actually contributes to people’s feeling, feelings of safety and belonging, in ways that oftentimes in church sanctuaries. Make things like safety and belonging feel threatened. You know, if I’m truly known, if I, if I don’t put on my Sunday best and bring my you know, bring my highlight reel, you know, into the sanctuary, I might be rejected, I might not be included, I might be placed on the outside, whereas, you know, in the church basement, look at, there’s just too much at stake not to be honest about what you’re going through and, and what your needs are for a community around you. And so, that chapter is really just about bringing, you know, bringing addicts recovering addict dynamics into the sanctuary, because we’re all recovering addicts. I mean, we’re, we’re addicted to idolatry, we’re addicted to, we’re addicted to ambition, or, or to money or to, to our, our pride or to any number of things. And I don’t know if I guess substance addiction are the kind of addiction that has the power to blow up a marriage. You just, you know, you’re willing to be exposed in the basement in ways that maybe we’re not willing to be exposed in the sanctuary for more acceptable sins, I guess I would say,

Collin Hansen
maybe Scott, this is related, then what would revival look like at your church?

Scott Sauls
You know, what, Colin, I think there’s always a lot of it going on. Because, you know, we’ve got a lot of those people who are telling their stories and stewarding those stories to bring encouragement and hope into the lives of other people. I wish there were a greater ratio of us who were willing and eager to bring our stories to the forefront. But one thing I discover, especially when, you know, parents lose a child, a child dies, and, you know, we go through the the grieving and burying process with the family or when somebody gets a terminal diagnosis, we’ve, we suddenly discover that these quiet people who don’t put themselves forward, who mostly keep to themselves and just live lives of quiet faithfulness, with a small community of friends around them along the way. Everything that they have been nourishing their souls with for years and years, sometimes decades, by, you know, essentially, being fully, fully present with a local church every single Sunday and fully present with Christ and Scripture every day. And you know, cultivating a life of faith and obedience, in a quiet place, suddenly, everything comes home. You know, in that moment of, of crisis, which becomes a moment of clarity about, about what really matters and about who really matters, and about where the source is of our healing and hope the people that sing it as well with my soul the loudest in our church are the sufferers they’re the ones who’ve you know, known defeat and disappointment and deep gut wrenching sorrow, they’re, they’re the ones who aren’t ashamed to lift their hands and they don’t care if they’re singing off key and it bothers you they just throw everything that they’ve got into it and and so if they’re and I you know, I would encourage people who think they’re in a dead church or, or just a, you know, a church that’s not alive. I guarantee you, your church is a lot more alive than you think it is. Remember, God doesn’t doesn’t judge by outward appearance, but by the heart and you never know how deep the faith is the quiet person next to you. I love that. I love that sometimes sometimes our charisma is a mask for lack of faith quite I’d honest, in our our unwillingness to sing psalms of lament and, and our unwillingness to express distress and sadness and constant, you know, emphasis on triumph and celebration and nothing else might actually be an indicator that we’re trying to mask a faith that’s not actually there to the depths that we would wish it was and talk ourselves into it. Maybe?

Collin Hansen
Yeah. Is it hard for you, Scott to put so much of yourself in your books? I mean, that’s definitely one of the hallmarks of your writing. And is it any different in a book compared to your sermons?

Scott Sauls
No, know, I think I have a similar voice. One thing I discovered, though, when writing a book, writing my first book is, it’s not the same process as writing a sermon. My sermon writing, God has given me the ability, maybe it was because we were church planters for so many years and had so many things to do. And time was short, but I write, you know, my best sermons take me about three or four hours to write total research to final product. But writing a chapter is is is like, you know, excavating a, you know, a concrete wilderness to start buildings, I just, it goes so much slower. It’s becoming more natural, but it really is for me, like pitching left handed. I don’t like writing as much as I like having written, if that makes sense. Because it’s a it’s a labor, for me, but I feel like, you know, it’s not something I asked for, it’s not something I pursued. It just kind of fell in my lap. And I feel like at least until the Lord gives gives me a sense of the people around me a sense that I need to stop, I probably need to continue. So that’s, that’s behind the curtain there. But there other things I love to do more?

Collin Hansen
Isn’t? Is it possible for pastors to be too vulnerable?

Scott Sauls
Yes.

Collin Hansen
Tell me more.

Scott Sauls
We should only be vulnerable to a degree that our vulnerability becomes a bridge to amplify Jesus Christ and not to amplify our vulnerabilities. You know, the pastor that bleeds on his people. Or the pastor that turns you know, a small group or a worship service, or an elder meeting into a group therapy session for himself, is probably not in a healthy place and not in a beneficial place for the body of Christ. And so it’s important to be circumspect about motivations, about, you know, the value and frequency of, of self disclosure, as opposed to, because it can become distracting, it can become the centerpiece of your you can become the centerpiece of your own ministry, you know, an unintended narcissist, even if, if everything points back to you and your story. And so it’s just something to be careful with and have, you know, trusted people around you will speak in and let you know how your ministry is being received and heard.

Collin Hansen
Yeah. Well, part of why I’m asking the question is because you, you strike a very good balance, but it is so easy. I’ve seen in many different times for people to fall off, that, and not every pastor, I don’t think has the personality that lends itself very well to, you know, vulnerability in the same ways. And so I can see that sometimes people will get really excited about a pastor, because he’s so real, authentic, raw, vulnerable, and that can be great. But it doesn’t necessarily mean the other guy has to be the same way. Or even that the vulnerability is always a good thing. Because it can be very easily manipulative, or, and even even abusive times. Which then leads me to my last question, which was what led you to conclude that your afflictions might have a greater impact than your preaching? Or vision?

Scott Sauls
Yeah, I’ll go back again to just a robust theology of weakness in the scriptures, that weakness is the vehicle through which God chooses to amplify his glory and His grace and His power. And as you know, saving condescending kindness more than any other vehicle from the beginning of history to what will one day be the end of time weakness is, is the conduit and it’s the avenue there’s no bypass road around it. And our Lord Jesus was exhibit a for that. He lived a life that was filled with humiliation and die to death with it was filled with humiliation and rejection and pain and alienation and, you know, the greatest act in the history of the world. You know, right alongside the Resurrection. Also, the greatest act is the means by which God has chosen to save the world, then we can’t dismiss weakness from, from the landscape of our own ministry and influence. And the other is just anecdotal that I don’t talk about a lot about my own anxiety and depression and how that plays into my story. I’ve actually written on the gospel Coalition for that. I think the essay is still out there. But whenever I’ve done that, I’ll just share one anecdote. There’s this guy in the church that I thought didn’t like me. And I was wondering, like, what’s up with that? You know, we preachers we read people’s body language, sometimes we get it right. Sometimes we get it wrong. We see him walking out. Yeah, but this guy was like folding his shoulder, there’s kind of leaning back, like cocking his head a little bit, like, Yeah, I’m not sure I’m gonna trust you. And that went on for like two years. And then after about two years, this was here at Christ Presbyterian in Nashville. After I was here for about two years, it fit with the text for me to share a bit about my own journey with anxiety and depression and he comes barreling toward me after the service and I don’t know Is he gonna punch me? Or is gonna, you know, kindly telling me he’s gonna start a petition to have me removed from the church, what’s he doing and, and he just, he grabs my shoulders. He’s got this intense look on his face. He says, You know what, I think you’re a really gifted communicator. And I’m entirely unimpressed by that. He said, I want you to know that today is the day that that you became my pastor after sitting under your teaching for two years, because today is the day that I’ve discovered that you and I are a lot more alike than we are different. Wow. Okay. And I’ve had a lot of, you know, conversations about you know, like that, from things I’ve written or things that I’ve said publicly. But again, you’ve always got to self examine and make sure the motives are right and make sure the occasion is right. In order to put put it out there that makes sense.

Collin Hansen
Does I’ve got a final three here with Scott Saul’s talking with him about beautiful people don’t just happen. Oh, God redeems, regret hurt and fear in the making better humans from Zondervan, final three, Scott, where do you find calm in the storm?

Scott Sauls
The Psalms and my wife.

Collin Hansen
Okay, good ones. What do you find good news today?

Scott Sauls
Ah, good news today. There’s a lot of good news. I have been told today by three people that they love me. Oh, and they are representative of of others who make a point of saying similar things.

Collin Hansen
That’s great, amazing what you find when you go looking for it. And it’s one of our themes here on gospel bound. Keep, keep looking until we see God working. And finally, what’s the last great book you’ve read?

Scott Sauls
Can I talk about the great book that I’m reading right now?

Collin Hansen
Yeah, that that actually is usually where people go with this.

Scott Sauls
It’s a novel written by a presumed child refugee called All Things Sad Come Untrue. It is breathtakingly beautiful. Highly recommend.

Collin Hansen
Well, by the time people listen to this, they will have heard our interview with Daniel got that book. Wonderful. So very, very, very good stuff there. So alright, well check out Scott Saul’s new book Beautiful People don’t just happen God redeems, regret hurt and fear in the making a better humans knew from Zondervan Scott, thanks.

Scott Sauls
Thank you, Collin.