Passing Our Faith to the Next Generation (with Laura Wifler and Amy Gannett)

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0:00:00 – (Melissa Kruger): Church becomes this stable home for our kids. And I think one thing I’ve loved, even as we’ve moved to different countries and different at different times, is when you walk into church, you know these people, you know this meal, you know, you know, you know these songs, you sing them together and you feel home no matter where you are in the world. And that is a gift we’re giving to our children. Hi, friends.

0:00:35 – (Melissa Kruger): Welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition where we love having deep conversations about deep truths. I’m Melissa Krueger, and I’m here with two friends today that I’m so excited to have on the Deep Dish. I’m here with Laura Whiffler and Amy Gannett, and we are going to be talking about a lot of things today, but just I want to introduce them both before we get in. Amy is the founder of Tiny Theologians. She’s the author of several books. By the way, I just got a copy of the new Tiny Theologians Bible. It looks so good, so you’ll have to check that out.

0:01:08 – (Melissa Kruger): And she and her husband are church planners in Greenville, North Carolina, which is just down the road from me. And shockingly, we don’t get to see each other near as often as I would like. And then Laura Whiffler is a poet. She’s the author of several books, the co founder of Risen Motherhood and the founder of Kit Lit Lab. And she has a book on poetry coming out this fall that I cannot wait to read. I have not seen it, but if you follow her on Instagram. Instagram.

0:01:36 – (Melissa Kruger): What I love about Laura is she makes words sing. And I feel like we live in a world where we have a lot of information but not a lot of words that make us feel. And so I always love when I read her poems. And I love both these ladies. They have so much wisdom. And I’m looking forward to talking with you both today. We’re gonna. I know we’ve had a lot of conversations on the side about handing down the Christian faith.

0:02:02 – (Melissa Kruger): And I know that you guys have had these conversations, both of the areas you’ve been in, in your ministries. You’ve thought about this a ton. You’ve talked about it publicly a ton. And so why don’t we start this conversation actually by telling me where you are kind of in your motherhood parenting journey. So, Laura, tell me the ages of your kids, kind of the stage you’re in, and then we’ll go to Amy.

0:02:23 – (Laura Wifler): Yeah, absolutely. So I’m in, I suppose, the middle years of kids. I have an 8, 11 and 12, almost 13 year old. So at second, fifth and seventh grade sometimes I think grades are almost easier to categorize. And our family does go to a public school here, which I think can be helpful too, to just kind of know what everyone’s working with. And then of course, lots of activities. We are deep in the sports, hobbies, choir, jazz, you know, whatever.

0:02:52 – (Laura Wifler): All the things that kind of middle school starts to bring. We’re definitely pretty deep in all of those things. And yeah, it’s a really, really fun stage. Melissa, you always have told me just how fun it gets and how crazy it gets also. And you have been right on both accounts.

0:03:08 – (Melissa Kruger): So you’re in the like carpool stage. That’s what I think.

0:03:11 – (Laura Wifler): That stage.

0:03:11 – (Melissa Kruger): Yes. In the car a lot. Yes, you are exactly in the car. It’s like car discipleship is where absolutely you are. And Amy, what about your kids?

0:03:21 – (Amy Gannett): I’m in the little years still. I feel like our oldest is just starting to like peak out of the at home stage. So My oldest is 5, about to turn 6, and then I have a 3 year old about to turn 4 and then an 18 month old. So Emerson, my oldest, just started kindergarten and we’re at a hybrid school and so she’s homeschooled two days a week, private Christian ed three days a week, and my little two stay home with me.

0:03:49 – (Amy Gannett): So we’re in a stage where it’s like all together all the time. Which I know in certain seasons a lot of moms would give anything to be back where you’re all together all the time. But we’ve actually had to learn to navigate it with a lot of grace because my husband and I both work. We both work from home and we keep the little ones at home without external childcare. So we’re just all here. But I love all three meals are together every day. Our play is together every day.

0:04:14 – (Amy Gannett): It’s a really sweet but also really unique season. So because I’m the youngest of the moms, like my kids are the youngest here, I’m like somehow going to hijack this and make it my Q and A of you guys because I really do feel like, tell me, tell me what’s ahead and tell me, you know, all the things. So I think I have more questions in this conversation than I have answers.

0:04:36 – (Melissa Kruger): No, no, I, I think what’s so interesting, I love how this conversation is shaping out because my kids are actually all gone. They just left me this year. Um, so I’ve got a 19 year old, a 22 year old and a 25 year old. Um, and it is interesting these different seasons, but discipleship never really ends. Um, so it’s happening, you know, when they’re 18 months and sitting on the counter like we just saw with Amy’s son. We saw a picture before we started. He was so cute watching her make bread.

0:05:08 – (Melissa Kruger): That’s such an intense season of it. And then it has different levels of intensity when they’re in the middle school years, and then it has different levels of intensity when we’re in the. Moving into the adult years and you’re parenting adult kids. Um, well, you two both grew up in Christian homes and Christian environments. What’s something that your parents did that was particularly helpful as you look back and think about your own journey? I mean, that’s something we all experienced.

0:05:36 – (Melissa Kruger): You know, we saw what our parents did. Was there anything in particular that you look back and you said, yeah, I want to do that with my family?

0:05:43 – (Laura Wifler): I mean, yeah, I always like to joke that my parents did gospel based parenting before Paul David Tripp ever wrote a book on it. You know, like, they were incredible and I’m so thankful. So there’s a lot that I want to repeat from their example, but I would say one of the best tools they put into my own toolbox was just the ability to think and be curious and think deeply about things. And so as we got older, my parents really approached a lot of conversations with questions and really helping me think and apply the gospel for myself and, and always pointing me back to Scripture. And they knew their Bibles well, you know, so there of course, is the whole.

0:06:27 – (Laura Wifler): They modeled it for me. That’s, that’s the first and most important thing. But because then they knew scripture well, they were able to just help guide me as I sort of floundered and tried to figure it out on my own and, you know, affirm where I got things right and course corrected where I got things wrong. But I think one of my most grateful things that. One of the things that I’m most grateful for is just that they approached different things with a level of kind of biblical curiosity.

0:06:54 – (Laura Wifler): And so often I felt like as they were training me or correcting me in areas that I’d messed up, it wasn’t about discipline. It was about, okay, what are we gonna learn from this? And how can we apply wisdom here and the gospel concepts? And so obviously, like, I took that all the way, I think, into risen motherhood and just those questions. And so it’s been a good skill for me. And one that I’m already working on with my own kids.

0:07:20 – (Amy Gannett): Laura. I love that. I think one of the things that my parents, that the image that is stamped so prominently in my mind when I think about being young in my parents home is that whenever we would wake up early, we would find both of them in their own spaces spending time in God’s word. So that’s like the image my dad bent over his bible at the dining room table in prayer and just seeing that this was something that was every day, it was everyday, ordinary faith. It wasn’t Sunday faith, it was Monday through Sunday faith.

0:07:53 – (Amy Gannett): But I think the element like that might be the image stamped on my brain, but the environment in which they raised us was just one of enjoyment. Like they enjoyed life and they enjoyed God and they enjoyed their Christian friendships, they loved their church and their friends. And I can remember so many Easters and Christmas Eve services where we were just having a great time. My parents were hosting 50 people and just having the best time enjoying their church and their family, their church friends and their family and their, the food that comes along with these Christian holidays and stuff. We just had this like environment of delight.

0:08:37 – (Amy Gannett): And it was, the faith was really unfolded into that. And so I think I grew up thinking this is the good life. Like following Jesus is not this to do list item. You know, just get disciplined enough. It’s drudgery. If you could just, you know, be somber enough to live the Christian life, you could do it. It was no, it was this like life giving, beautiful, delightful, enjoyable thing. And so that stands out to me as something I wanna really model for my kids.

0:09:11 – (Amy Gannett): I recently heard a seasoned mom share

0:09:15 – (Laura Wifler): in a public way.

0:09:16 – (Amy Gannett): She said her daughter did this interview. Her daughter grew up and followed the Lord. And she said, why do you think, what do you think your parents did that encouraged you to follow the Lord? And she was really thoughtful, but she said, I think it was the French toast and the buttered pecans and the maple syrup, you know, like it was just the ordinary delight of living life with Christ. And I thought that was so beautiful.

0:09:37 – (Amy Gannett): And I really resonate with that when I look back on how my parents sought to embed faith into everyday life.

0:09:43 – (Melissa Kruger): That’s so good. I love that image of parental warmth rather than Christianity’s drudgery, you know, which is kind of this image I think sometimes we can have when we think of discipleship, like, okay, everyone in a line, recite your Bible verse and let’s go or whatever and everyone’s miserable. And it’s just been interesting to me, I look back on some of our family life that even was centered around the world were daily discipleship things.

0:10:15 – (Melissa Kruger): We laughed a lot. I mean there was just so much fun and, and even what you were talking about, community and food and fellowship and we live in a world today that is so isolated from one another. But what was interesting, that was not my kids experience. You know, they say their generation is one of the loneliest generations we’ve ever had. But my kids are kind of confused by that because they’re like, we’re at church all the time with all these people, you know, and, and so it’s, it’s interesting how just living the Christian life is an antidote to whatever the world’s putting out it, whatever new thing you guys will face because every generation is going to have a little bit of a difference feel on that. But I just always take such comfort that huh, what scripture invites us to is really an abundant life, not the life of missing out. Which I think is how sometimes it’s painted.

0:11:15 – (Melissa Kruger): Well, I love Deuteronomy 6. It’s what I went back to a lot as a parent. And I’ll read it for us just so everybody can hear these verses again. And it says, and these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise. So okay, put some of this, you know, family discipleship into real life practice. How does this happen in a busy home like Laura, we’ll start with you because you’re in this season where just managing the skin schedule is probably enough to keep your brain very full.

0:11:58 – (Melissa Kruger): So how do you get family discipleship in? How do you do this? Talk about it? When you go about your way, you’re going about your way. So how. What does it look like on the ground?

0:12:07 – (Laura Wifler): Yeah, you know, I think number one, it, I love what Amy said of just. It starts with the atmosphere and temperature of your home and the kids really picking up on that in natural conversations. You know, it is not unusual in our home for my husband or I to be like, hey kids, like here’s an example. I’ll give a practical example. The other day I came to my kids and a lot of times, you know, I’m a very communicative, verbal person and I will say, yeah, I know it kind of stinks that we have to clean these bathrooms but you know, like, let’s just get it Done. And then we can go enjoy.

0:12:41 – (Laura Wifler): And I was saying that about a lot of things really relating. You know, they’re like, yeah, mom gets it. This stinks. But there was one morning where I was just convicted. I’m like, I’m a complainer. I’m a grumbler. This is actually not what God says. The work of the home is. The work of the home is a privilege, and it’s a joy. And so I came to my kids and I was like, hey, guys. Like, I was studying in my Bible, and the Lord just brought conviction. And I want you to know that I think I’ve been a bad model in this for you.

0:13:07 – (Laura Wifler): And that actually, I am so thankful that I have a bathroom to clean, because that means we have a family that is in this home and using it well. And, you know, we have a bathroom that’s really lovely and wonderful. And so it’s just that it’s that whole idea of, like, be thankful that you have dishes to wash, because you have. That means you have, you know, food to eat or a family to serve. And so that, I think, is a regular rhythm in our home of just showing what God is teaching us and what we’re learning.

0:13:35 – (Laura Wifler): And it is tough to find those pockets of intentional instruction. And I’ll share in a minute about that. But I think it really does start with these natural, normal conversations that. That was before school. One morning I just came to the kids and I’m like, let’s just talk about this. And you know, my kids, like, it’s been cool just to see some fruit even from them. Of like, whoop, I. I complained, you know, and I’m like, that wasn’t even my point.

0:13:59 – (Laura Wifler): But they kind of catch themselves. And they’re still at that really sweet age where I feel like they really want to please me and honor me. Their friends aren’t quite their best, you know, model yet. So I still have a lot of influence. I’m so thankful. But then in terms of, like, formal teaching, you know, I was thinking about this too, of kind of understanding what kind of church you go to and the expectations that we can have of the church.

0:14:23 – (Laura Wifler): And I grew up in a church that was very intentional and heavily taught me Bible history. And like, I knew the stories, I understood the metanarrative scripture. Maybe not that word, but, like, it. It did a lot of that heavy lifting for my parents. I now attend a much larger church where that is just not as practical for their kids ministry. And so I recognize, okay, I can either be frustrated by this or I can respond and react to the church that God has put me at.

0:14:50 – (Laura Wifler): And so I know that’s an area of focus that while my kids are in public school and they’re at a mega church, we’re probably not getting a lot of the story of Israel, a lot of the story of the early church. The history that is not just biblical history, it’s our history, it’s my kids history. And so that has been something where in the evenings we really try before we turn on the TV, to have a 10 minute, it’s a quiet time. But I would almost say, like it’s more educational. Like we have been working through the Passover and it’s Lent season right now as we’re recording this and we were like talking through, you know, like, why don’t we celebrate the Passover today and Easter?

0:15:29 – (Laura Wifler): It’s just been very fun to have these conversations and I’m even like learning a little bit along with them. You know, I, I didn’t go to seminary, I don’t have any formal education. And so as their questions come up, we’re just talking. And so I’ll be like, hey guys, does anyone remember what’s the Passover? Hey, does anyone remember, you know, why, why, what did Jesus do to eliminate the Passover? Like, why did they have sacrificial lamb? You know? And so it’s literally more teaching than I would say necessarily like the heart work that you typically think of a quiet time where it’s like, oh yeah, I want, let’s pray and ask the Lord for wisdom. I would say it’s probably more in the season of life that we’re in practical.

0:16:08 – (Laura Wifler): Hey, I want you guys to understand your story as a Christian. And that’s probably how I’m using any intentional time we have. And the hard stuff sort of comes in these natural car rides or you know, before bed, the little conversations that we might have where a kiddo finally, you know, lets out maybe what happened. Um, but our quiet times are much more educational is how I would frame them for now.

0:16:32 – (Melissa Kruger): It’s actually exciting. They’re at the age where they can take that. It’s really fun and they’re excited still about learning it. What about Amy? They are little years. Yeah, I mean, you know, because they’re, they’re, you know, not too busy for it and they’re not, they’re not bugging you about differential equations in algebra 2 right now. So it’s not yet. The brain space is still there. But Amy, what about in the little years?

0:16:57 – (Melissa Kruger): How do you I mean, you’re. Here’s what’s interesting. You’re with your kids all day long, you know, but. And so it makes it sound like that would be an easier time, but in some ways, when you’re together all day long, I could see how you could be like, oh, we’ll talk about that later. We’ll talk about that later. And then it’s just like, oh, I still got dishes to do and more food to cook for these people again, you know, it just goes on.

0:17:24 – (Melissa Kruger): How do you get it in?

0:17:25 – (Amy Gannett): Yeah, I think when you’re together all the time, it. Being intentional can really easily fall by the wayside. So, because you’re having conversations, and my first two are both girls, and so they get their word count in for the day by like, 7:15am so we have had a thousand conversations, you know, by the time it’s breakfast, I mean, we have just said so many words have been spoken. So I actually think it’s hard when you’re together all the time to be intentional. And so a couple of things have helped me, but I wanted to share this first. One of the things that I missed when I first studied this verse. You know, I came into this verse feeling like I’m gonna apply it to my parenting life.

0:18:08 – (Amy Gannett): But I think the Lord was really specific when he first says that these commands are to be upon your heart. We can’t pass on something to our kids that we don’t possess ourselves. And so for God’s commands to be on our heart, not just on our mind, not just, I’m ready to teach my kids, I, I or I know what I should impart to them. But these things are supposed to be the heartbeat of our own Christian lives.

0:18:38 – (Amy Gannett): And so I think for so many parents, and both of you model this beautifully in your own walks with the Lord. But having a time where we are as moms, spending time in God’s word so that his commands might be upon our heart, we have no capacity to know God’s heart and know his word if we’re not spending time in it. And so letting our parenting then not be this sort of adjacent set of commands that we’re trying to pass on to our kids as if it’s an abstract thing, but letting ourselves be saturated by them, our lives be transformed by them. Laura, like, what you shared with your kids is so beautiful because the Lord convicted you first.

0:19:22 – (Amy Gannett): His word was upon your heart, and you shared that with your. You brought it then to your children. It’s the overflow of that. But in the Little years. Two things have helped me really be more intentional with my kids when it, when it feels like our day has a lot of words passing and it could be more difficult to be intentional. Two things have helped me. One, we have used a morning basket routine ever since My oldest was 18 months old. When she couldn’t comprehend what we were going through. We would read little Bible verses, we used little flashcards, a little storybook Bible. We prayed together, we did some worship songs together.

0:20:05 – (Amy Gannett): It was a really short, you know, 10, 15 minute routine at the beginning of our day, right after breakfast, you know, sort of breakfast, get dressed, brush hair and teeth. Morning basket. My kids still do that every morning. And what’s interesting is that it gave me this chance to say the things that I wanted to say. You know, if I had said, oh, we’ll talk about that sometime, and I realized the next day we didn’t talk about that.

0:20:29 – (Amy Gannett): Here’s a chance for me to be intentional with some of those things that I want to pass on to my children. But I think the person that was most formed in that process was me. Um, it was my daily reminder that my primary disciples in my life were not somewhere online. They weren’t even the women in my church that I disciple. They were my children. And it started my day on the back foot of being a disciple maker in my home. So that’s the first habit that was really helpful.

0:20:59 – (Amy Gannett): And I think for somebody listening that wants to start the practice of a morning basket, my best recommendation is just to start small, because small is sustainable. You know, start the way you can sustain. And so start with reading one Bible verse or getting a set of Bible flashcards or something like that, doing one card, praying together and singing one song together. It can be super simple. It can take you less than five minutes.

0:21:24 – (Amy Gannett): And the first time you do it, you’re gonna feel like that really wasn’t worth it. But you’re gonna do it for a month. You’re gonna do it every day for a month and be like, I actually think the Lord is gonna use this. And you know what? He will, He. He just, he will, he will use your faithfulness. Cuz he’s the grower of the fruit, but he calls us to be faithful. And so in these little things we can start small and be faithful over the long haul.

0:21:47 – (Amy Gannett): The second thing that has really helped me is learning to respond to my children’s small questions with big answers. A lot of times we talked about answering the big questions. You know, last night as I was putting my three year Old to bed. She asked a really big question. Oh, how do we know that Jesus is always with us? You know, we had just prayed about bad dreams and I assured her that Jesus was always with her and she goes, how do, how do we know Jesus is always with us? So I answered that big question, you know, big answer, big, big question, big answer. And then she goes, and mama, and Mama, you know, like calling out the door. As I’m like, you know, going out the door, she’s calling out and she’s like, mama, Mama. And is your favorite color pink? You’re like, did we, you know, like, okay, you know, not where I thought the follow up question was going to go, but okay, here we are. That’s a very three year old brain.

0:22:36 – (Amy Gannett): Um, so I think I’ve been better at answering over the years answering the big questions, but letting their small questions throughout the day lead to bigger conversations. Just showing them that the Lord is at work in like the. And gives us symbols all throughout our day to remind us of his grace and remind us of his goodness. Just this morning, my husband sweetly got our girls flowers for Valentine’s Day. And they are currently wilting on the countertop.

0:23:03 – (Amy Gannett): And you know, they’re sitting in their water, but you know, I filled those vases once and that is all they will get. So they will end up in the trash can in no time. But my daughters pointed it out over breakfast. They said, oh, the, our Valentine’s flowers are dying. And I said, you know, they weren’t made to live forever. And as I said it, I thought, here’s an opportunity. A small question about their flowers, big answer.

0:23:25 – (Amy Gannett): And I said, but you know, what was made to live forever. You and I, we were made to live forever with God. And everyone who believes in Jesus gets to live forever, forever in his kingdom. And my 3 year old responded, how do we live forever in God’s kingdom? It’s like, here’s a great opportunity to talk about what it means to live as members of God’s kingdom. So I gave her a short explanation. She went on to eat her yogurt. You know, like it was kind of like the big question before bed. And is your favorite color pink? You know, it kind of passed, but it’s all these little pieces that we just pray, Lord, would you use these little truths that are, you know, we, we really can’t change their hearts, but this is yous eternal word and you’d eternal truth. So Lord, would you embed them in their heart little by little so that over the course of Their lives. You’re really growing something glorious in them that we could never have fathomed or envisioned or imagined or produced ourselves.

0:24:24 – (Amy Gannett): So that’s some of the ways that it looks in this season of having little ones in our house.

0:24:30 – (Melissa Kruger): What I. I love about that answer is it’s a whole category shift. It’s being.

0:24:34 – (Laura Wifler): It’s.

0:24:35 – (Melissa Kruger): It’s taking a small question that maybe seems like it has nothing to do with the Bible and turning it into a big question. And I think that’s such an important part of discipleship as you go along the way. And I think that can only happen based on exactly what you both pointed to. The first discipleship relationship that’s happening is actually ourselves with Lord. The. The way to disciple horizontally is first to be vertically growing. In fact, this passage that we just read doesn’t begin here.

0:25:11 – (Melissa Kruger): It actually begins with the command, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and strength. Then it says these words that I give you are to be on your heart. And here’s the thing I realized, and I. I don’t think I. Yeah, I grew up in the 80s, so it was really. Everyone expected to hate their parents and hate everything about their parents. You know, it was just like all the teen angst. The 80s was, you know, on every TV show.

0:25:34 – (Melissa Kruger): But the reality is, you. You realize kids love what their parents love. That isn’t a popular statement really, or even really understood, but the reality is they’re watching us. And they do tend to love your sports team or love the sport you play or love how you’re living your life. And even. Even when it’s a hard relationship, whatever we’re doing as parents is greatly impacting our kids. They’re watching us. And so I don’t think as parents, we ever can discount what our growing affection for the Lord is just doing. The witness of that to the next generation, that’s a huge part of discipleship, and that’s just you continuing to grow.

0:26:26 – (Melissa Kruger): Because, Laura, even what you said about feeling convicted in your own time before the Lord and then carrying that on to your children, I can remember on that specific verse, I had a kid’s song that was Do Everything Without Complaining. And it was the Sing songy. I mean, y’, all, it was one of those songs that you listen for your kid and it gets into your ear, your mind, and you’re like, can I get that tune out of my head?

0:26:52 – (Melissa Kruger): But it was so convicting to me, it was actually what you start to see is as you’re discipling them The Lord is going to disciple you and confront you with all the ways. Oh, I’m not doing everything without grumbling and complaining either. And that those things come back. Well, I have more questions for you, but I want to take a moment and we’re going to hear a word from our sponsor and then we’re going to come back with some more questions.

0:27:17 – (Melissa Kruger): Welcome back. We’re so glad that you all are joining us for this conversation. As we’re talking about how do we pass the faith on in a lot of ways to the next generation? How do we disciple the next generation in our homes? And I’m here with Laura Withler and Amy Gannett, and we are having just a conversation about all of this in real life. And so one thing I want to ask you about is church. And what is the role that church plays in discipling our kids? How, how, how much should we expect? What shouldn’t we expect? How do we have a good understanding of the role of the CH in our discipleship of our kids? Laura, I don’t know if you want to start.

0:27:59 – (Laura Wifler): I kind of hit on it a little bit earlier, but I think to even expand it more. But I want to hear what Amy has to say. I mean, she is a church planner over there with, with all the expertise. But I think the biggest thing that I have learned over the years is that, you know, just like I shared a little bit earlier about being a complainer or grumbler about my home, that I don’t want to come into my church and have specific expectations on how they will or will not disciple my kids. And I think that I had that for a long time.

0:28:30 – (Laura Wifler): I wanted it to kind of be just like what I was raised with. And for thousands of reasons, sometimes what we believe our ideal is just, isn’t possible, you know, and after running Risen Motherhood, everybody has their ideas and desires and you just start to learn as you are in leadership that there are good ideas. But there are a lot of reasons that I can’t even explain to you why these things won’t work. Not just because I want to be a no person, but it just really there is a true element, I think, that I’ve learned of trusting my church leadership and that if I have chosen to become a member of this church and go to this church, then I can also trust them with their vision in this conversation, specifically the children’s ministry.

0:29:13 – (Laura Wifler): And that doesn’t mean that I’m not allowed to come in or have conversations or share my view. But in general, I want to come into the church with an energy of optimism and positivity and believing our church leaders understand what’s best and to spread that around. Because I think what I see among peers and online and things is that it can just be so easy to feel like I’m going to just complain about this, and I feel frustrated about this. And so either being willing to be part of the solution or also just in general coming with a heart that says, I’m thankful for what I can receive here, and then I wanna respond to that in my own home and fill in the gaps. So kind of like I was sharing earlier with my church isn’t necessarily heavily focused on teaching through the biblical history of God’s people. And so I was like, okay, that’s something that I wanna be able to fill in the gap with.

0:30:06 – (Laura Wifler): And I can go to church then with joy, because I’m not feeling like, oh, my family’s now lacking in that area. I can be the solution to that. And I volunteer taught at my church for many, many years. And, like, that’s another way too of, like, if you wanna see change, go be a volunteer. And so I did that for years and years, and I taught a little differently than, like, all the other teachers, but it was like, hey, this is what I’m hopeful to bring to the table. And so kind of being part of that solution, but being in submission to your church leaders, I think is really important.

0:30:34 – (Laura Wifler): Amy, what would you add?

0:30:36 – (Amy Gannett): Laura, I think that’s really good, especially the perspective of optimism towards your leadership. I think in, in church ministry, we call it presuming goodwill. So if somebody makes the decision that maybe you would have made differently, you presume that they made it with the best intentions for your kids. Like, their desire is to disciple your kids and to disciple all the kids God has brought, and they probably have information that you don’t have.

0:31:02 – (Amy Gannett): So being in leadership, I totally resonate with that. It’s this leadership has just taught me, oh, man, the things that I was critical of in the past. There were probably so many factors that I just was. Just didn’t have access to, wasn’t privy to. So I am the kids ministry director at our church. I run Tiny Theologians. I’m a mom of kids that go to kids ministry on a Sunday morning. So I have a lot of thoughts on this.

0:31:26 – (Amy Gannett): But I think one of the things that the. One of the things I keep coming back to is that, Laura, what you said of going to church with your kids and saying, I’m a disciple maker at home, and we are going to church together, even if it’s imperfect. Every church is imperfect. Every kid’s ministry is incomplete. We all have gaps. And so. And I, even as a mom, am like, oh, I wish our kids ministry could do all these things. And then I put on my kids ministry director hat I’m like, we don’t have it in the budget. We don’t have the volunteer power. We don’t have that kind of curriculum, or that kind of curriculum doesn’t exist yet. So I think going to church as a family and then also saying at home we are making disciples means two things. One, it is so formative for families to go to church together.

0:32:15 – (Amy Gannett): Um, there was a study done by the Barna group. I’m. I’m gonna misquote it. Okay. There’s this study done several years ago where they followed several families from, like the young years through their kids first years of college. So it’s like a very long time. And they tracked those kids whether or not they would own the Christian faith as their own, or whether they walked away from the faith after entered college.

0:32:40 – (Amy Gannett): And they sort of surveyed the families where the kids held onto faith as their own in college. And the number one top factor that those families had in common was that they worshiped together regularly. One of the other top factors were that they ate dinner together regularly, one meal together every day. So I think those things just speak to time. I think one of the things that really weighs on my heart these days is in the busyness of life.

0:33:10 – (Amy Gannett): A lot of families have opt made church optional for their family. So it starts by saying, well, we have this other commitment on a Sunday morning, whether it’s a soccer game or a dress rehearsal for the kids play or something else, it starts that way. And then it’s sort of, it’s like this, you know, decline into, well, church is what we do unless something else comes up, unless there’s some better opportunity, you know, a trip, which is great. Families should go on vacation together.

0:33:46 – (Amy Gannett): But it’s like families then, I think, just don’t realize how frequently they miss church. I think if people sat down and looked at their calendar, especially in the season of life that you’re in, Laura, like where there just is a lot on the calendar. We feel like we’re going to church a lot, but a lot of people, if they looked at their calendar, might only go to church two weeks a month. And I think what I want to encourage families in is going to church can be really hard in the little years. It’s hard to get all those kids out the door, get everybody out, fed, dressed, teeth brushed, get them in the car, get them to their classes. It can feel like this whirlwind for, you know, like 90 minutes. You know, it can feel very difficult to do that. It can feel difficult in the busy season to say, actually, we’re not gonna do games, soccer games that are on Sundays.

0:34:32 – (Amy Gannett): We’re not gonna sign up for things that book up our weekends or on Sunday mornings in particular. That can feel really difficult. But the faithfulness of worshiping with a church, no matter how imperfect they are, is so formative for your family. The studies have proven it, and the Lord says it in his word. So gathering together with other believers in and of itself is just so valuable for family life. So that’s the first thing. The second thing is it’s if your church is going to have gaps, and you’re the primary disciple maker in your kid’s life, you and your spouse, you are the primary disciple makers.

0:35:08 – (Amy Gannett): And so they’re going to learn different things depending on the church you go to, the different ways they disciple them. Laura, like you said, your church might not teach a lot of biblical history, and they may not. And another church might teach them only that, and they will have other gaps, which is why it’s so important for us to know the word of God, to know what it looks like to walk with the Lord, so that we can say, oh, this is what you’re learning.

0:35:31 – (Amy Gannett): I also want to disciple you in this way, or I want to carry the conversation forward. You know, you talked about David and Goliath in class today. I want to carry the conversation forward. Beyond courage. Maybe that was the emphasis of the lesson. But, like, God chooses people that the world doesn’t choose, and he uses them. Like, I wanna carry that conversation forward. But in order to do that, we have to be people fully formed, you know, deeply formed by the Lord.

0:35:56 – (Amy Gannett): And so I think it comes back to knowing and owning the responsibility to be a disciple maker, but walking with the Lord in such a way that whatever our church is teaching, we’re. We’re building off of that, and we’re using that as supplementary to what we’re doing in the home. Um, but again, I think we just can’t emphasize enough that going to church as a practice, as a family, you communicating to your kids, gosh, I love our church.

0:36:23 – (Amy Gannett): Gosh, I love singing. I love when our church sings that song. I love seeing Mr. Thomas every Sunday morning and giving him a hug, communicating that delight and joy in God’s people. I think that is just so. I mean, dare I even say that attitude towards church and towards life in the body of Christ is more formative than whatever lesson or curriculum your kids have in their class.

0:36:47 – (Melissa Kruger): I think too often we think of church as informational. We live in an information age where we can google anything really quickly. And I think what even studies are showing us is it’s the incarnational nature, not the information that’s important. We need sermons, we need that. But you, but if that’s all church is, you don’t need church anymore then because we have online resources. You can get information in a lot of places.

0:37:18 – (Melissa Kruger): But I think sometimes we forget what an apologetic it is to the next generation when they see an 80 year old saint with their hand up singing an old hymn or a brand new worship song or whatever, the legacy that, that sleeping. And then when we have these small groups in our home, so the church in some sense comes to your house. And then my kids would see those people at church and they immediately feel like, oh no, these are my people. Because I was putting like beads on her neck the other day and dressing her up, you know, with my boa, you know, or whatever I can remember my kids would always, you know, just, they’d interact with the people who came to our home.

0:38:03 – (Melissa Kruger): And in a world where we increasingly live far from our immediate family, when we don’t, a lot of people move on a regular basis. I mean it’s just a very transient society. Church becomes this stable home for our kids. And I think one thing I’ve loved even as we’ve moved to different countries and different at different times is when you walk into church, you know these people, you know this meal, you know, you know, you know these songs, you, you sing them together and you feel home no matter where you are in the world. And that is a gift we’re giving to our children.

0:38:42 – (Melissa Kruger): It’s not a drudgery, it’s not something it. We tend to think about what we miss out on. And I just, I remember, I just, I think sometimes we fail to consider what we have, what the richness we gain from them being part of a church in a really engaged way. I would encourage anyone listening as you think about these things. It’s so easy to come and go really quickly. But I would say invest, have your kids serve with you, especially as they age in whatever you’re serving in. If it’s setting up chairs, if it’s serving in the nursery, kids love to help.

0:39:19 – (Melissa Kruger): And I think we’ve all found Actually when you serve, you feel more invested. And so as kids learn, oh yeah, I can help with the worship team, I can help with the bullet, pass out the bulletins. I can help with this team. It actually it, it builds who they are to be part of a community and that’s a really, a really good thing. And I just want to say I, I am on the other side of all those sporting events and I am so glad we made the choice for church and rather than the soccer field on Sunday morning.

0:39:56 – (Melissa Kruger): And you know, when you see your kids not even being able to imagine not going to church on a Sunday morning in college, you just thank the Lord because that’s so in their habits of life. It’s like, yeah, I’m going to brush my teeth in the morning, yeah, I’m going to brush my teeth in the evening and of course I’m going to go to church on Sunday. That is something that’s worth fighting for. And again, some kids are going to make different choices.

0:40:24 – (Melissa Kruger): That’s just going to happen. But if we can say, looking back, hey, we did all we can to try to show them the church is a wonderful thing because honestly, that’s where lifelong discipleship will happen for our kids. So it starts in our home, but that’s their actual family for all eternity. And so we’re just introducing them from our small family into the bigger family. Well, let me ask you this question. We all produce resources for kids that help. I think all of our goal is to help even families know how to disciple, you know, through books and stories, through resources.

0:41:02 – (Melissa Kruger): Are there any, like, if you can think of one resource that you have found really helpful in discipling your kids. Like what I would say actually is kind of a surprising one. It was the children’s catechism. It’s, I think it’s a Presbyterian thing. I know there are other catechisms now, but this was the children’s catechism. And here’s what I can say I loved about was a resource. It is all question, answer, who made you? God. What else did God make? All things. Why did God make you in all things? For his glory.

0:41:33 – (Melissa Kruger): How can you glorify God by loving him? You know, guess who learned it? Mom. Mom learned it. I could go through like the first 12. But the thing I realized looking back, I didn’t understand this at the time. Looking back now, I realized it made discipleship a two way street. My kids were talking. It wasn’t just me talking. They had to give answers back to me and that we started that, like, at 2 and 3 with them starting that conversation meant the conversation never ended, you know, and so I don’t know if there are resources that you, you know, you’re using now or you look back on and you’re like, oh, this is one resource I really love.

0:42:13 – (Melissa Kruger): You know, Amy, why don’t you start?

0:42:15 – (Amy Gannett): And then.

0:42:15 – (Melissa Kruger): Laura?

0:42:17 – (Amy Gannett): Yeah, we have a lot of written resources. We’ve traveled, like, we’ve gone through so many story Bibles. That’s the era that we’re in. We’re just starting to read, like, the full text to our oldest, and, you know, the other two are with us. But she’s really ready for that next step. And so there’s a lot of resources like that, but those can feel a little bit like what you’re talking about, Melissa, where it’s like. Like it’s. It’s me talking to them, which is a great and essential part of discipleship.

0:42:43 – (Amy Gannett): But one of the resources that we’ve come to love that makes us feel more shoulder to shoulder is worship music for kids. So we love Slugs and Bugs. Sing the Bible. We have that on all the time. We’re memorizing scripture. My husband is preaching through the Sermon on the Mount right now, and I can hear it as he, from the pulpit is reading the Sermon on the Mount. I can hear him read. And Jesus went up on the mountain. And I’m like, don’t sing this song. Not from the pulpit. Like, it’s all in our heads. Like, we can’t.

0:43:13 – (Amy Gannett): It’s. We can’t escape reading those verses without Randall in our brains. But it just makes that part of discipleship and memorizing scripture. We do memorize scripture using flashcards that I made for tiny theologians. And so we. We do those. But this makes it so fun and silly. And we’re dancing, and it’s just such a different shoulder to shoulder experience. And my kids don’t feel like they’re being discipled in that moment. And so it feels just playful and the spirit is different.

0:43:42 – (Amy Gannett): So that’s one that I’m really glad that we gave a shot a couple of years, years ago. And it’s had some staying power.

0:43:48 – (Laura Wifler): Laura, what about you?

0:43:49 – (Melissa Kruger): Slugs and bugs.

0:43:50 – (Laura Wifler): Slugs and bugs.

0:43:51 – (Amy Gannett): Yes, Slugs and bugs. Randall, good game, does slugs and bugs and. And he’s got so many volumes of seeing the Bible. And they’re so great. They’re so great. So, Laura, what about you? I wanna hear.

0:44:03 – (Laura Wifler): Well, I mean, of course, anything from tiny theologians. I have. Absolutely. And this is not Even this is before I knew Amy. I was buying her stuff. And so I’m so glad we’re friends now. And I’m like, hey, I want this. Can I have this? And she made sure to hook me up. But honest to goodness, tons of great resources over there. And I would say my kids are like just my oldest kind of aging out. A tidbit. And so something that we enjoy and use at home a lot is it’s called Long Story Short by Martin.

0:44:36 – (Laura Wifler): Oh, I should look it up really quick. I want to give the author credit, but it’s basically family. Yeah, find it and link it.

0:44:43 – (Melissa Kruger): We’ll put it.

0:44:43 – (Laura Wifler): We’ll link it. Okay, great. And it is a ten minute family devotional. It’s a pretty thick book, but it’s basically got the passage. You read a little paragraph and then three to five questions. And to be honest, nothing against the author, but we end up just, you know, we are floating away off the pages. We actually hardly use the content that is given. But it’s been helpful because not only are you working through every Bible story and there, you know, it’ll even fast forward if there’s a connection to Christ. You may hop into Isaiah, you may hop into the new test, the gospel. So it really does a nice job of every day.

0:45:23 – (Laura Wifler): You know, you’re working through the life of Abraham, or you’re working through the life of Moses or whatever story you’re kind of on. But then it also points you forward to Christ. And I like it because it just stimulates questions in our home. And so I let the conversation go anywhere and it almost always goes to heaven and hell. Somehow it feels like, you know, we get, we get kind of fixated on let’s talk about Satan or let’s talk about angels and.

0:45:50 – (Laura Wifler): But kind of like we were talking about church, of wanting church to be a great experience. I want my kids to just feel like we can talk about this. And I mean, literally, sometimes I’m like, like somebody will say something kind of silly or weird and I’m like, oh, the Lord’s probably laughing right now. You know, like, kids like, God can handle humor, God can handle goofiness. He can handle our questions.

0:46:10 – (Laura Wifler): And so it’s really just designed to be a time where we can talk really openly. And sometimes I’ll even come back to my kids the day and be like, hey guys, one of my answers, I was thinking about that and actually I think I have a more true answer for you. And so then I’ll kind of help them understand because you know, the conversation’s wild and crazy, and literally they will be like, can we do another?

0:46:33 – (Laura Wifler): And I’m like, yeah, let’s do another. You know, and sometimes I say, no, it just gets to be a lot. But they really enjoy just having the conversation. And I am not a stickler on, hey, we are talking about this. Hey, we have to stay focused here. Again, we very rarely actually do the questions. I kind of make up a couple

0:46:52 – (Melissa Kruger): and then let her rip.

0:46:54 – (Laura Wifler): And it’s been very fun to see where my kids go. And I will say, hey, yeah, Mama doesn’t really know. But I think if I were to take my best guess or this isn’t something that the Bible uses a megaphone on. And so I don’t want to use a megaphone here. But if I were to guess or this is kind of what my studies lead me. But other people believe these things. And so it’s just fun because I think showing them what’s important and how to. Where to drive their stake in the sand and doing that in a very safe environment is important to me because I want my kids to maintain that continual life of learning and curiosity as they grow and also recognize that there are some different opinions and that the Bible isn’t always clear. And that’s okay. Like, we are comfortable with things that are unclear or things that are mysteries of God.

0:47:45 – (Laura Wifler): That’s kind of my go to is like, I don’t know. That’s a mystery of God. But, you know, and it just kind of like puts it. Put it over there for a little bit. So that’s the main resource that I found to be really a blessing. But I would say you have to do some of your own work with that. Don’t just, like, be boring and read it off, but use it as a springboard.

0:48:03 – (Melissa Kruger): That’s so good. I mean, in that moment, you’re teaching them theological triage.

0:48:07 – (Laura Wifler): Yes.

0:48:08 – (Melissa Kruger): Like, there’s.

0:48:09 – (Laura Wifler): Yes.

0:48:10 – (Melissa Kruger): Oh, you know, Jesus is the only way. Big deal. You know, maybe some people get baptized as babies, some people get baptized as adult. Yeah. Like, is that. Yeah. They’re starting to understand because. Because kids are concrete learners. Yes. So they want black and white. Are they. You know, that’s. That’s what they want. And you start to realize there are some things that are very black and white. Jesus the only way.

0:48:37 – (Melissa Kruger): But there are some things that. Well, different people who love Jesus think differently on this topic.

0:48:43 – (Laura Wifler): Yes. And that’s. That’s been a great part of it, too, of just kind of being able to say, well, because we love Jesus, we’re gonna do it like this, or even, you know, we live very blessed in a cul de sac. And every house in my cul de sac goes to our church. Is that not the wildest. Not planned. And the last house kind of joined our church like a year ago. And it was like, what? You know, it’s very. It’s such a blessing.

0:49:09 – (Laura Wifler): But also, we are all families that love Jesus. And in like, very. We’re in the same denomination, and yet we have different rules and different ways that that plays out in our family. And so that has just been really healthy to walk through. And I would just say these evenings where we’re kind of sparring, you know. Cause even now my kids will be like, well, I think that God. Da, da, da, da. You know, and just making stuff up or whatever. But it’s been kind of good where I’m like, okay, we’ll back it up, dude. You know, like, if you think that where you finding that in scripture. And it’s just been very fun of a practice and a family culture in our home.

0:49:43 – (Melissa Kruger): Yeah. And I just want to encourage you both. I really think those conversations will continue because you’re already creating an environment where it’s. It’s okay to have them. And that just welcomes more. I’ll give you both of you one more resource. I just thought about it when y’ all were talking that you guys might like, as your kids are aging. Have y’ all heard of dispatches from the front?

0:50:06 – (Laura Wifler): Yeah, I have. Is it a missionary thing?

0:50:08 – (Melissa Kruger): It’s a missionary thing, but I forgot about this till y’ all were talking. So this is a thing. You know, you see a lot of families say, we want to take a mission trip together. Well, you know, that’s a lot of resources. Normally not every family can travel across the globe to see what’s happening around the globe. So we did this. I mean, this is going to make the Kruger sound like the most boring family ever.

0:50:27 – (Melissa Kruger): But we would sometimes for our Friday movie night, watch dispatches from the front. And we would watch it and then we pray for the area. But let me tell you, this made missions very exciting. It was like, oh, wow. You have to take that boat to get there. And then you’re going to, you know, and you get to see it up close and personal. And it opened my kids eyes to the rest of the world. So sometimes it’s. Yeah, what we can show them in God’s word, but also what we can show them about God’s word world, you know, as they look around because, you know, our kids are living in suburbia.

0:51:02 – (Melissa Kruger): And so sometimes you’re like, there’s a whole world out there that doesn’t know Jesus. And that can be part of discipleship. That doesn’t have to be, okay, we’re going to study the Bible together now. But in some ways we’re going to kind of look at God’s heart for the nations and things. And yet it’s a video, so it’s fun.

0:51:20 – (Laura Wifler): And you know, one thing I feel like might be important to just add to this conversation too is if there is a listener out there that’s kind of feeling like, well, I don’t even know how to talk like this. Or like, you know, me, Amy and Melissa, us three are kind of, you know, professional Christians or however you want to say it. Like, this is our life, right? We love studying the Bible. We love getting to do this both in our work and in our home. But I just want to encourage any mom who’s like feeling they don’t have the language or they don’t feel like it feels very uncomfortable, I would say. I remember I was probably my youngest, was probably like a year old when I first remember trying to connect the gospel to everyday life.

0:52:01 – (Laura Wifler): And it was something like my kid noticed a bluebird, like my four year old, like, look, look, bird, pretty bird or something. And I was like, yes, that’s like your eyes, your eyes are blue. And God made your eyes. You guys, I thought, felt so awkward. I mean, I said all that and I was like, you know, like, it just wasn’t my natural way of speaking. My parents didn’t really talk like that. But I was like, I’m just gonna try this. Cause I hear all these wise women saying, like, connect these things.

0:52:28 – (Laura Wifler): And I would say it does feel uncomfortable at first. And so if you’re new to this and it’s like, ugh, it’s totally okay. There is a growth in this that comes with practice, a comfort that comes with this, with practice. And that’s why I, a lot of times would always encourage moms of young children, like, do it a lot now because they don’t judge you at all. But even if your kids are older, you’re starting kind of where my kids are, even Melissa’s kids. It’s never too late to try that and start it and you’re gonna fumble. It’s gonna be weird. Your kid might look at you kind of strange.

0:53:03 – (Laura Wifler): But that is worth it for the long term benefits of being able to talk freely about the gospel in your home and to start connecting things to Jesus quickly. And I just can’t tell you enough of the importance of adopting a really humble posture as you learn and just being able to say, kind of like I said earlier, like, oh, actually this is more true. Or even if you say something and then you’re like, that was kind of awkward. But I just want to tell you about Jesus because I love him. You know, you can just kind of like roll through it and it will become more comfortable over time. But don’t think this hasn’t come to us three without a lot of practice.

0:53:45 – (Laura Wifler): A lot of mess ups, a lot of times of feeling really awkward and we don’t get it right all the time. But I do wanna encourage a mom to just try and start and like, know that there will be a day that it, it does come more second nature and it’s worth the work.

0:54:00 – (Melissa Kruger): I’m so glad you said that. Um, cause we, we unfortunately do need to wrap up this conversation. I have about 10 more questions that I wanted to ask, but we’ll have to have you back to talk about some of those. But one thing too, and I think what Laura just said so important, if you just are looking for a place to begin. There are so many great children’s books out there that can just start conversations that are fun to read. Laura’s got great ones, Amy’s got great resources at Tiny Theologians. And I just encourage you just buy some books for your kids, let them speak if you don’t quite know how to do it yourself.

0:54:37 – (Melissa Kruger): I just feel like there are so many more great resources. I know that when I was doing it, y’, all, I was printing on like printers that were like, you know, back in the day, trying to get my kids to memorize verses. Now there are so many great things. So we’ll put some links in the show notes. But I do want to close. We always like to end with a fun question. And so this is what I love to ask people.

0:54:56 – (Melissa Kruger): What is a book you enjoyed as a child? Like, it doesn’t even have. It doesn’t have to be a Christian one. Just a book you loved to read as a child that you maybe even want to share with your kids.

0:55:09 – (Amy Gannett): Well, mine is not a Christian one, so my favorite book growing up was Blueberries for Sal. Have you guys read that one?

0:55:16 – (Laura Wifler): It’s so good. I love that book. Yeah, the illustrations are cool.

0:55:20 – (Amy Gannett): I do not know how like, or when I first read it, but I just, it is like imprinted in my mind. That was like the book of Childhood. And actually, it was really sweet when this spring, my husband and I, we were not looking to move. We were not looking for a new house. And the Lord put one kind of right in front of us that was on the market. Friends of ours were selling it and my husband was like, can we please go see it? And I’m like, I don’t wanna move. I love my house. I don’t wanna do any of this.

0:55:45 – (Amy Gannett): It felt like so much work. And we walked through the kitchen and what was on the bookshelf in the kitchen but Blueberries for Sal. And it was just like the Lord was like, I got you, girl. Like, it was just this sweet reminder from the Lord that he had his eye on me, you know? So I really. I think that’s the sweetest little book. So what about you?

0:56:04 – (Melissa Kruger): Is that a picture book? Is it a picture book?

0:56:06 – (Amy Gannett): It is. It’s a picture book. Yeah. And the illustrations are just beautiful. I mean, it’s just this really sweet story about blueberry picking. This little girl and her mom and some bears that are blueberry picking. So it’s very sweet.

0:56:16 – (Laura Wifler): It is really cute. I didn’t discover that book till I was an adult, but it’s like on all the classic literature picture book lists, so definitely worth picking up. It’s such a homeschool mom move that you just pulled right there. But I know you’re only a part time homeschool mom. Yeah, Blue bears for Sal.

0:56:30 – (Amy Gannett): I’m like earning my stripes.

0:56:32 – (Laura Wifler): Okay, okay, here, here. Public school mom suggestion. Mine is Tacky the Penguin. Has anyone heard of Tacky the Penguin?

0:56:40 – (Amy Gannett): No.

0:56:41 – (Laura Wifler): Okay, so totally opposite of Blueberries for Sal. It is this story about an odd penguin that, like, doesn’t count correctly and he wears a Hawaiian shirt and he’s on this island with all these pretty perfect penguins. And hunters come to try to lock them up. And because of kind of his oddness, he ends up up scaring away the hunters. And then kind of everyone realizes that, you know, Tacky is a special penguin that should be part of the group. And so I have not done it justice. It’s funny, it’s goofy. You have to read it with like a crazy voice.

0:57:12 – (Laura Wifler): But I have read that at, like, pretty much when I come into schools and can read, you know, for my kids. Cut. Mystery reader or whatever. I don’t read my own books. I would. I feel too weird about that. I have one book I can read in the public school, but I’ll often bring Tacky the Penguin. And the kids laugh. And it’s Good. But it’s a silly, funny book, so. Yeah. How about you?

0:57:33 – (Melissa Kruger): We’ve got a homeschool. We’ve got a public school. Mine, mine. If you want to send your kid to counseling, this is the one. Because it’s kind of traumatic, but I realized I loved it as a kid. It was called the Little Rabbit who Wanted Red Wings. And there is. So it’s this little rabbit, and I realized I’m like, did this start me on the whole envy journey, like, and thinking about this conc. Concept of wanting what you can’t have? I don’t know.

0:58:00 – (Melissa Kruger): But this little rabbit sees a robin with red wings. She goes to the wishing well, wishes them on well. Then she goes home, and her mother doesn’t recognize her. So that’s the traumatic and sends her away. So that’s kind of this.

0:58:14 – (Amy Gannett): I think.

0:58:15 – (Melissa Kruger): I think this is why it didn’t do well in the market. Probably back in the day, you know, it was published in Britain. You know, they’re tougher than we are.

0:58:23 – (Laura Wifler): I think they are tougher.

0:58:24 – (Amy Gannett): Yes, they are.

0:58:25 – (Melissa Kruger): They’re like, we survived a war. You can deal with your mother kicking you out one night, you know, type thing, you know, and so. But I kind of always loved the story because it was such a good reminder. How you’re made is who you’re meant to be. And don’t wish. Don’t wish for something that doesn’t belong to you. I mean, I think it’s kind of.

0:58:42 – (Amy Gannett): Maybe.

0:58:42 – (Melissa Kruger): Would be good for. For. For our age. Let’s bring it back.

0:58:47 – (Laura Wifler): It might do better in the Christian market now.

0:58:49 – (Amy Gannett): I know. Maybe if we. Maybe if the.

0:58:51 – (Melissa Kruger): Maybe if they couldn’t find their way home and they had to or something.

0:58:55 – (Laura Wifler): A couple edits and it’ll be.

0:58:56 – (Melissa Kruger): Yeah, we could get this back in the market.

0:58:58 – (Laura Wifler): We’re all children’s book authors. We can figure that out.

0:59:01 – (Amy Gannett): That’s right.

0:59:01 – (Melissa Kruger): We can.

0:59:02 – (Amy Gannett): We can wrap our brains around this.

0:59:03 – (Laura Wifler): The team is here.

0:59:04 – (Melissa Kruger): Exactly. Well, thank you to both for joining us on the deep dish today. It’s been so fun. I hope that the resources we’ve talked about, the different conversations we’ve had about family discipleship, hopefully it will be less overwhelming and maybe a little more simple as you think about it, as you go along your way. And so we just hope that this conversation has been helpful. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for listening. And if it’s been helpful, please consider sharing it with a friend. We’re so glad you joined us.