Parenting with Hope in an Anxious Age

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Michael Kruger
TGC, well, good afternoon, everyone. We’ll go ahead and get this cranked up. Let me offer you a warm welcome to this session on parenting with hope, parenting with hope in an anxious age in particular, and a special welcome to all you anxious parents out there, and you have two anxious parents on the stage. So we’re all in this together. No, we’re thrilled about this. Melissa and I are just so excited to discuss this topic with you, to be here at the gospel coalition 2025 conference. If you don’t know me, my name is Mike Kruger. I’m the president of Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina, and also professor of New Testament. And my wife is Melissa Krueger, and she is the vice president of discipleship programming at this wonderful conference and at TGC. And what, what is it exactly you do? Melissa with discipleship programming anyway, what is that?

Melissa Kruger
Exactly? That’s a good question. Yeah, exactly. I am over two parts. One are all of our events. So everything that’s happening here, I get to help plan and be a part of and then our women’s initiatives is also kind of under, under my side of things. So it’s really good. And you want me tell about our family?

Michael Kruger
I do. That’s why we’re here. Yes,

Melissa Kruger
we have three kids. We have an 18 year old who is getting ready. I hope there’s at least one Tar Heel in the house. Okay, good. There is. She’s getting ready to go to UNC next, next year. So we’ll be empty nesting. We have a 21 year old. In fact,

Michael Kruger
we’re changing the topic to empty nesting, which will be the new topic for today.

Melissa Kruger
So I would need tissues for that one. We’ll just do that. And we have a son who loves to blow things up. He is an aerospace engineering student. And then we have a daughter who is 24 she is here somewhere. Where are you? Emma? Is she? She didn’t come. And Andrew, Oh, there they are, way back, and a son in law. They’re both in the back. They don’t have a seat. There’s seats right up here.

Michael Kruger
There’s a reason she didn’t come. I think so. When the discussion is over today, Emma will be up on the stage taking questions for everybody.

Melissa Kruger
She will, she will either confirm or deny everything we teach today. So that’s, that’s why she’s here to keep us honest. Oh, and let me say this session, we just want to say thank you to harvest house, they have sponsored this session. There is a lovely gift basket, which I kind of want to take myself, that we’re going to there’s a raffle that will be given at the end, so you have to stay till the end, but I have some names that they’ve already drawn and that will be given to someone. So harvest house has sponsored this, and we’re so glad that they have Yes.

Michael Kruger
And on that note, some of you see on the chair in front of you the book that Melissa released last year called parenting with hope, and this is actually where we’re getting the title of this session from. And this is just such a fantastic book. One of the reasons our harvest house is sponsoring this event is because they’re the ones that published this book, and it’s wonderful. I’ve read every one of Melissa’s books. How many? How many of my books have you read Melissa? Just curious. I’ve read some of them, some of them by some of them, and she means one of them, partly. We make fun of each other. I often tell people that I write books, and Melissa writes books that people read. So that’s always helpful. And this is one of those books that people read and ought to read. It’s no in all seriousness, this is just really fantastic. Obviously she wrote it, not me, but I did read every word, and it just has such profound wisdom. We’ll be delving into some of that wisdom in our time together with you in this session, of course, but I hope you’ll check it out as you leave here, because it’s really a wonderful resource for what we’re talking about today. Now, as you already heard, the reason this topic is important to us is, I’m sure the same reason it’s important to you is that we’re parents. We have three children you’ve already heard about that Melissa introduced. Melissa introduced, but I want you to know that we don’t really, really view this session as just for people who are right in the throes of it. We are on the back end of it. Some of you are just starting out. Some of you are in the middle of it. Some of you wonder, how in the world did I ever get here, and how did these things get this way? Some of you haven’t even had kids yet, and this is still for you. We hope you’re here thinking someday, maybe the Lord will bless you with children. We think this is just a topic covers a number of really important, critical issues that certainly are relevant to parenting, but really go beyond that, and that’s why I’m thrilled about it. Let’s start with this question, Melissa, just as we get rolling here before we get into our principles, and by the way, we have a number of principles we want to lay out for you today and just have a conversation about them before we do that. What before we do though, What? What? What have you loved the most about being a mom? That’s start there, because I have ideas about what I’ve loved about being a dad. What have you loved the most about being a mom?

Melissa Kruger
That’s a tough question. Okay, wow, I can say this. From the moment I got pregnant, I have thought, What a privilege, what a privilege to get to be a parent. And I can say, and I know some of you moms are in like, the days where you’re getting, like, thrown up on so that doesn’t, it doesn’t always feel like a privilege at every moment, but it’s been, it’s been such a joy, I think, to what I always say is children are like this gift. That keeps unwrapping as they age. You know they come into your home and you look at them, and you have all this time you stare at them when they’re little, and then slowly, the Lord reveals who he’s making them to be, and what a privilege to get to be part of that journey with them. What a joy to get to watch not who you’re creating them to be, but who God’s creating them to be. I think that’s my favorite thing.

Michael Kruger
No, that is so true. In fact, one of the things I’ve enjoyed the most about I’ve loved so many things about being a dad, one things I did not expect about being a dad is how incredibly different each of my children are and how much distinctive Joy each of them brings me. Each of them have so much to offer, so gift sets, personalities, proclivities, the way they operate, and as they’ve aged and as our relationship has grown, I’ve just found myself every year that goes by just reveling in the joy of getting to know them and how different they are from one another, and also wonderful in their own way. I always thought that before I had kids, they’d all kind of be the same. I don’t know why I thought that, but I thought, okay, you have kids, same parents, same house, they’re all going to be kind of the same, but they’re not, and that’s one of the joys, I think, of parenting is just watching what God is doing distinctively in their lives. Now, in our time with you today, let me just set some expectations. I know that you’re smart enough to know that you’re not going to come in here in a short session with us today and get all your parenting questions answered. And I want to take whatever percentage you have in your mind that maybe you’ll get 25% of your parenting questions answered, and I want you to reduce that down to like 3% and then cut that in half. And then cut that in half again. We are not under the illusion that what’s going to happen in this session is going to solve everything that’s to be solved. That’s to be solved about parenting. So what are we going to do today? What we want to do is focus in on the big principles. I think the big principles are the key, because then everything else trickles down from those. And so because we’re going to find a good biblical number to use, we’re going to lay out seven principles today, right? I figured I’m a Bible scholar, the number seven pops up a good bit in the Bible. Let’s pick seven. So we’ve picked seven principles. We’ll move to these quickly. We only have a short time with you, but I know a lot of you have questions about a lot of particulars. What do you do with social media? When are you what is the right age for a child to have a mobile phone? When? When do they date for all those questions, Emma will be taking questions at the end of the thing tonight, and she’ll answer those for you. No, we’ll touch on some of those, but I think you’ll discover that. And you know this, the principle is the archetype for everything, not not the particularity. And particular areas will vary depending on the child, depending on the circumstance, depending on the parent. All right, let’s do it. Seven things you want to jump into with you today. We’re going to start with the first one. And it’s first for a reason. Here’s Prince. Here’s principle number one we want to share with you. Our hope must be God oriented, as parents, not child oriented. Our hope must be God oriented, not child oriented. Now you’ll notice that we did pick this title of our session today, very particularly parenting with hope in an anxious age. Look, we know there’s a lot to be anxious about in our world. Melissa and I have raised three kids, and our last one is 18 and about to be gone to college, and there’s lots to worry about, lots to think about. We know what’s on your mind because the same things that are on mine, but we don’t want to start with those issues. We want to start with actually a reason to be hopeful. And the reason we can be hopeful is only when you’re God centered and not child centered. And we put all our hopes in our children and how they’re doing, we’re going to miss the bigger picture of putting our hope in God and what he’s up to. Melissa, what give give us your perspective on that? Any verses come to mind, anything that would help you think about what it means to be God oriented, not child oriented?

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, I often think about it a little bit like Joshua and Caleb, when they when, when Moses sent out the spies to the land of Canaan, and, you know, 10 of the spies come back, and they’re like, there are giants in the lands. We’re like grasshoppers in them, and they come back with and they’re completely afraid. And here’s the thing, they were right. In some sense, there was a lot to be anxious about. You know, they’re this little nation, and they’re going to go to war against all these Canaanites. How are they going to take the land they had? They had good questions. Joshua and Caleb came back, and they were like, God’s got this. God can do this. And so what I would say, when you think about parenting teens in this generation, and I’ll be honest, I think in any generation there are true giants in the land. When we say parenting with hope, it is not a hope that is just glib or, you know, stick your head in the sand and say, Everything’s going to be okay. It’s actually a hope that looks and says, There are true giants in the land, but God is where I’m putting my hope. And Paul would say this time and time again in Second Corinthians, he’s talking about all the burdens he’s bearing and all these struggles. And he says on him, we have set our hope that he will deliver us again. And if I could give any way to infuse hope to all of us as parents, it is that we do not set it. On our children. We don’t say, Oh, I’m going to just hope in the outcomes. I’m going to hope in what they’re going to be. I’m going to hope in my parenting skills. It’s I’m going to look and say, The world is full of a lot of scary things. There’s the world, the flesh, the devil, they’re all coming at us. There are all these things. Every generation has a new thing. And yet, I’m going to hope in God in the midst of that. We’re going to talk more about what it looks like to hope in God in the midst of it, but it’s somewhere to set it. It’s not getting the right techniques. It’s believing that God is able to work in your child and to remember that the teen years are a short season, so sometimes we can get so fixated on those years, but we want to be Godward in our hope, not child oriented.

Michael Kruger
Yeah, one of the things that I think you probably know intuitively, and that we all know intuitively, is that even though our generation seems like it’s facing unique challenges that no one’s ever faced before, and by the way, there is an element of truth to that, it’s also true that every generation of parents thinks that they’re in a place that is unprecedented, and anybody who’s ever been a parent has fears about the next generation. If you go back to the 80s, when I grew up, every parent thought this is the end of the world. No one is ever going to make it out of the 80s, our culture is doomed. Well, okay, we made it in the 90s. Same thing. You go back into the 60s, it especially felt doomed. Even in the 50s, it felt doomed. You could keep going clock from generation and centuries beyond, everybody’s got a concern, and I’m not saying they’re not valid, but the focus is on the thing that doesn’t change. Here’s the thing that doesn’t change, and that is God and His promises. And one of the things that we can trust about God and His promises is he does work through families. Now, one of the things that Melissa highlights in her book, which I thought was really a fascinating part of her research, is the statistics bear this out. I mean, even though we don’t think that, as parents, our kids are listening to us. And by the way, if you feel that you’re partly right, but you’re also partly wrong, and one of the things that Melissa found in her book is that you may be more wrong than you think. What tell them a little bit about what you what you found?

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, there’s a really interesting book. It’s called handing down the faith, and it was a sociological study of the transmission of faith from one generation to the next. And it wasn’t just the Christian faith, it was various faiths. And this is what it said. Some readers might be surprised to know that the single most powerful causal influence on the religious lives of American teenagers and young adults, sorry, in the religious life is the is the religious lives of their parents, not their peers, not the media, not their youth group leaders or clergy, not their religious school teachers. Myriad studies show that beyond a doubt, the parents of American youth play the leading role in shaping the character of the their religious and spiritual lives even well after they leave the home. Now I know I just made you completely stressed out by that statement, when I read that, because it is, it means actually what’s happening in your home really, really matters.

Michael Kruger
No, I mean, another way to think of it is, even though we don’t think it’s happening, our kids are looking like us in some ways, by character, spirituality and so forth, that we are shaping them and influencing them, apparently, according to the study, at least even more than the world around them. And as Melissa said, that’s both very heartening and also very scary, because I think sometimes Wait, my kids are going to turn out like me. That’s not good news. I want them to not turn out like me? Well, it’s both and right. On one level, we’re glad they’re not being influenced by outside forces. On another level, we also have to realize that that leads to a second thing, and that’s really the second principle we want to share with you here. The first principle has already said is we want to be God centered, not child centered, in our approach. In other words, be optimistic. Here’s the second principle you want to lay down for you know, flows right out of the first one, and that is, parenting begins not with making sure your kids follow God, but making sure you follow God. I’m going to read that again. Parenting begins not by making sure your kids follow God, but making sure you follow God. Here’s here’s the thing we want you to see in the second principle, and that it’s tempting as a parent to be so focused on your child that everything is about controlling, shaping, determining how they act, what they say, what they think. And by the way, there’s a place for all of that. But that’s not the first step. The first step is, if they’re going to reflect us, then the first step is make sure that we are following God and that we are living out the Christian life. In other words, the first stop shop is our own spiritual health before we pass that on to our kids. Wants to say more about that,

Melissa Kruger
yeah, in Deuteronomy, where yeah, the first call to parents is not to teach these truths to the children. It is first love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, your strength, your soul, and teach. And then it says, Teach these, impress them upon your children as you go about the way. So the very first thing we’re to do, our first call, is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, strength and soul. And so that’s that’s something we actually have to prioritize as parents. And so when you think about it. Like, hey, what’s important in my parenting? It’s actually really important that you’re spending time with the Lord and in prayer and being in God’s word and all of those things. I think the scariest passage in the Bible I came upon it. It’s actually in Second Kings, 1741, and this is what it says, even while the people were worshiping the Lord, they were serving their idols, and their children and their grandchildren did the same. So, so here, this is this picture of the Israelites. They were worshiping the Lord, supposedly, but what were they really serving their idols? And what happened afterwards, their children and grandchildren did the same. And so I think one thing that we have to realize in our battle in against culture. Sometimes, you know, used to think it was sex, drugs and rock and roll were the were the big things that you’re worried about with your teenager. And I would actually say it’s not so much the culture out there, but the idols in here that I have found to be my biggest battle. Yes, culture is real. I mean, it’s something we’ve got to fight against. There’s a lot going on that’s really hard, but the idols of my own soul are often what my children are most likely to worship, because they actually love me, and because they love me, they love what I love. And so I think one thing we have to reckon with is sometimes we think the battle is out there, and that feels much more comfortable, but we have a war going on with our own idolatry. Fight there. First, fight our own idols. And I think we’re all called to do that as Christians. And as we’re doing that, put on love for the Lord. Fight our idols. That’s going to transform how we parent.

Michael Kruger
So I was, I flew in this morning from Charlotte, North Carolina, on the airplane, because I I just arrived around lunch today before this conference got kicked off. And I don’t know about you, but with all the airline stuff going on recently, I’m like, actually listening to what the flight attendants say now for the flight, like, where are those emergency exits? I’m looking over my shoulder. One of the things they always say, though, and you’ve been on enough planes to know this, that is, if the oxygen mask dropped from the ceiling, you always put yours on first before helping others. And every time I hear that over the years, I always think to myself, Man, that’s that’s so selfish, so self centered. Why would I help myself first before I help someone else. And of course, you know the answer to that? The answer that is that if you’re not breathing oxygen yourself, you’re not good to anyone, and you’ve got to be breathing oxygen in order to help somebody. Well, that’s the whole point here, with the second principle, which is that, as parents, put the oxygen mask on first before you help your child, meaning make sure you’re breathing in deeply from God and His Word spiritually. Otherwise we’re going to be of no use to our kids and to put on the oxygen mask first. And so one of the things I found penetrating about Melissa’s book is the book is about parenting. But if I could rephrase a little bit, the book is actually about parents. It’s not just about parenting, and it’s about how we as parents need to make sure that we’re pursuing Christ with our whole heart and soul, so that our parents are sorry, so that our children pursue Christ with their own heart and soul. Now here’s the here’s the reality is, if we do that, we’re gonna fail. And if you’ve been a parent very long, you know this, you you try to live the Christian life faithfully in front of your kids, and you trip and you trip and you fall and you stumble, and so before we leave the second principle, just one more note, and that is just the importance of owning our mistakes as parents and apologizing both in front of and to our children when it’s needed. Melissa, say something about that, because I think that’s a key part of your

Melissa Kruger
book, too. Yeah. I mean, I think especially, I would say, if you have younger children, start it young, but it’s really important when you have older kids to be able let’s say a teenager comes in and really bad mood. They look at you like you’re a problem, because you exist and, you know, they walk in, you paying attention in the back, okay? Emma never did that. Emma never did they slam the door, whatever. I mean. Part of this is, when I say normal, I’m not saying, right? But some of this is just, you know, they’ve had a bad day. Sometimes they don’t have, you know, the ability to rightly deal with that as all of us sometimes struggle with how we feel about our days. And so let’s say they do that, it can be really tempting as a parent, yeah, in that moment to just lose it. You think you had a hard day. Let me tell you about my day, and you’ll get back into it with them when you find yourself doing that and maybe yelling back at them. Okay, one, you are actually the adult in the room, and so you know it’s good for you to acknowledge, hey, I yelled. I shouldn’t have yelled, and I’m sorry, and to really own it. Don’t say, Well, you made me yell because you came in with I mean, that is not an appall. Apology. Okay, we need to get really good at giving a really truthful apology where we own our mistakes. I think some parents feel like, oh, I might lose ground with them if I do that. I want to say what you will do is you will model to them what to do when you make a mistake. And then what you’re going to watch happen in your home, your kids are going to actually know how to give a good apology, and you’re going to start to see them give apologies to one another. I’m laughing because I just thought of, we have a son in law, Andrew, who’s here too, and he goes, You guys apologize so fast. In your family, you need to let it simmer a little more.

Michael Kruger
I was like, we can work on that, Andrew, don’t worry.

Melissa Kruger
But it’s it really, it really does matter that we as a parents, give good apologies. And I just want to say, as you think about the idols of our age again, we often think in culture things. I just want to say, I want to just put them out here. I really explore more in the book, but I think we need to take a hard look at how we view scholarship and affluence, sports and activities and social approval and acceptance. I think that is like groundwater contamination on most of our parenting. And it is those things that don’t seem that bad. And you know, they’re like, Well, why is it bad that my kids making straight A’s? It could really be bad if they think that’s your biggest goal for their life. It could that that is an idol in your life, and you are actually pointing them down a path that is not life. There is no life in making straight A’s. There is life and knowing and following Jesus. So we’ve got to be careful as parents, what am I what if I had to go home and ask my 12 year old, what do you think, I think is most important in your life? What would they say? It’s a good question for us to all ask ourselves.

Michael Kruger
Yeah, that’s a scary question. I’m not asking them. Yeah, I’m not going to ask that question. Thank you. Okay, third principle of our seven, don’t underestimate the power of the basics. Don’t underestimate the power of the basics. So when you think about parenting, all of us are like this, and I’m like this. We want, we want a formula that that is sort of like that no one’s thought of before. And every time you read a parenting book, you may be thinking, well, this is finally the solution. I’ve been been wanting that sort of magic bullet that solves my my parenting challenges. But I think we all realize is actually the basics have just been the basics for a long time in the Christian life, and they’re really not going to change. And the analogy here is like losing weight. Like if someone says, What do you have to do to lose weight? If you ever notice, the answer is always the same, other than wogovi or something like that. The normal way you lose weight is diet and exercise. And when they ask you, five years from now, the answer is not going to change, it’s diet and exercise. In other words, the basics are basics for a reason, because they actually work. And one of the things we want to say about parenting is, don’t miss the basics. Don’t Don’t overlook the basics. So Melissa, what are some of the basics that you bring up in the book, some of the things that every parent wants to make sure that they’re busy with with their kids.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, I think sometimes we overlook these because you’re like, Oh yeah, of course. I mean, we need the word, we need prayer, we need church, and we really discount the power of what those do. But what I like to say, these are what are called, often, means of grace in the life of a believer. So if we want to understand how does God’s power work in our lives, he created means by which He has called us to do not for legalistic reasons, not for, you know, to be righteous. But he said, No, this is how your soul works properly. You need to be planted, in my word, you need to be a people of prayer, and you need to be a people who go to church. And I think what’s interesting is everybody wants this magic bullet, right? You know? They think, oh, I want the secret. I want you to tell me the secret. And I feel like, well, the Bible is trying to tell you the secret. It’s telling you, hey, read this book. Don’t listen to the gazillion podcast and all the stuff out there. Don’t plant yourself Blessed is the man whose delight is in the law of the Lord, whatever he does prosper. Psalm one, that’s where we start. Whatever he does prosper. Plant yourself there. Pray. Because guess what, just like John Piper said, You cannot make a dead person come alive. It is actually impossible. You all of your arguing about why Jesus was resurrected will never convince your 14 year old that is not but. But you know what will God’s Holy Spirit will can give them a new heart. That is why we pray from the moment we even think about having children, we have to be people who pray, and then the church kids are lonelier than ever. If you look at all of the statistics, and the statistics also tell us that kids who regularly go to church have better mental health. They have better social health, their lives. Are blessed by just the activity of going to church. And I’m telling you, yeah, just you need to have a conversation about sports and activities. Because I think that good thing is, how is getting in way of the best thing church is the community your children need way more than baseball. That is not a popular opinion right now, but the reality is, sometimes it’s good things that are getting away the best thing. And so these are the faithful ways our children are going to grow. And it’s us being in the word, us being in prayer, and us being in church and modeling that before our kids.

Michael Kruger
You know, one of the things that we’ve learned over the years raising our kids is, you know, there’s a there’s a great and wonderful place for sports and activities, and those can be a blessing in their own right, for sure, but, but we also noticed too, that that those come and go, and they often change, and I can’t tell you how much time we spend on certain sports kids, and they don’t ever think about them anymore or ever talk about them again. And I’m not saying there weren’t lessons learned there that were helpful, for sure, but the Word of God, they’ll remember that praying together as a family, they’ll remember that the influence of church over many, many years, even if they can’t recall the particulars that’ll that’ll shape them. And I think that’s part of what we want to ask as a family. Those other things in life are good things. We’re not saying don’t do them. We’re just saying that have them in their proper place and make sure that the main thing is always the main thing, and the basics are basics for a reason. And so back to my weight loss analogy. Let’s stick with diet and exercise and forego the quick fix, right? The quick fix is go for the drug that can make you lose weight, and that’s the best way to do it. And and we think about that with parenting, sometimes it’s like, okay, I’m just going to forego the basics and go some other newfangled route. But the basics are basics for a reason. I think God really has those in place over the long haul. Now, one, one thing I know that happens with families when it comes to the basics, thinking, Yeah, but I don’t really I’m not a good teacher of the Bible, or I’ve never been to seminary, or I don’t know how to lead a home devotional or or maybe you’re at a point in parenting where your kids are 1415, and 16, and you’ve never done this at all, and you’re like, now it’s far too late to start right? Well, no, you don’t have to be a trained pastor or theologian. You don’t have to have done it for 20 years. If you’re starting late to the game as a parent, just go to your kids and say, Hey, we’re recognizing that if we could go back in time, we would have done things differently, and we don’t want to lose out on what God has for us. And so, yeah, we haven’t been doing this up till now, but we really want to start new trends as a family and just own it and just start fresh. And I think God will bless that in amazing ways. Any other thoughts on on family devotionals before we move on to our

Melissa Kruger
next principle, I always just say patterns over perfection. So don’t think that you you know, we keep trying and stopping, trying and stopping just, you know, find a time for us. It was family, breakfast, work, the best time. It didn’t happen every day, but it happened all. It was the pattern of our home. And I think just keeping that mindset, and it’s amazing, what 10 minutes a day over years and years and years, not perfectly. Can do in a family.

Michael Kruger
Okay? Principle number four. Principle number four, parental warmth promotes healthy community in the home. Parental warmth promotes healthy community in the home. One of the things that has dawned on down us over the years as parents, is that when we talk about community in the Christian life, we usually talk about community in terms of the church, right? How to create a good community in your church, or how to create a good community in your home, Bible study or something like this, and a lot of effort, a lot of manpower, a lot of prayer, a lot of time, law thought goes into how to create good community where people feel warm and welcomed and nurtured. What we didn’t realize is we’ve never actually had that conversation about our family. What are we doing to create good community as a family, so that it’s warm and nurturing and welcoming to the family and in particular, to the children. And that had never dawned on us. And I think retrospectively, as we look back, we’re thankful that even having not thought all that through God, still blessed what we were doing. But I think one of the things we discovered is steps have to be taken to think about creating that warm environment. And Melissa, in your book, you actually learned some interesting things about warmth, family warmth. Why don’t you share something about that? So I was,

Melissa Kruger
my training was in high school education. I was a high school math teacher, and we had to do a lot of teen development in my classes. And one thing that there’s a quadrant that talks about different parenting styles. There’s authoritarian, authoritative, permissive and negligent. And so I would say what most of us struggle between are permissive and authoritarian. Okay, I’m supposed to be in charge or, Oh, I don’t want to be that in charge parent, so I’m just going to let the child do whatever they want to do. Well, in between those is what’s called authoritative. And I like to call that a shepherd parent, mainly because authoritative and authoritarian are really easy to get confused. And I call the authoritarian more a domineering parent. This is. Little more my way or the highway type parenting studies have shown permissive and authoritarian or domineering don’t really have good outcomes, typically for for children responding to faith and different things like that, what we want to create are homes where there are high expectations and high degrees of warmth. So it’s by no means lowering expectations, but what it is is saying, Hey, we’re going to have rules in this home, and we’re going to have consequences, but what you’re never going to lose is my love. And so one thing I think we have to be really careful about, even in discipline, is that sometimes as our kids get older, I think we think, Oh, I’ll remove warmth. I’ll just get really mad at them and be cold. And that’s the discipline, and that’s a really bad way. I mean, we know what the Lord says. It’s his kindness that brings us to repentance. So what we always want to be doing is looking at our children with deep love and affection and bearing fruit of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, all those need to accompany whatever discipline we’re giving. So we still give discipline, we still provide consequences, but we want to create an environment that’s really warm and loving to do that, one of the best pieces of advice, I’m a little bit embarrassed where I got it from. It was actually an Oprah Winfrey interview with

Michael Kruger
okay, we’ll just wrap this up right here. So it was

Melissa Kruger
with Toni Morrison, and you go online and look at it. And she was talking about parenting, and her question was, do you light up when they walk in the room? Your kids, your kids, yeah. And so that’s true. You know, a two year old walks in, and maybe they’re really cute, you know, whatever you light up. And then as they go through different stages, I think we forget to light up when they walk in the room. And she said, you know, you’re always looking at your kid with this critical, oh, you need to tighten your belt, you need to pull up your pants, you need to, you know, fix your shirt. We see what’s wrong first, rather than when they walk in the room, put your phone down and say, Hey, I’m so glad to see you. Do we still greet them with that, I’m so glad you’re alive and you’re in my life, that wonder of getting to be their parent. I think that would do so much to create that warmth, if they just knew when they walked in a room we lit up and that they were the most important thing to us in that room.

Michael Kruger
That’s gold, you know, I think that’s just one of the big takeaways. Is, is that’s the way God thinks of us, right? I think about the parable The prodigal son, and even though it’s not an exact analogy, because we’re not talking about someone who rebels, that father’s disposition towards his son is exactly at this the I’m gonna run and greet you and hug you. You’re mine and I love you. Okay, principle number five. Principle number five, lead with the conversation, not with the command. Lead with the conversation, not with the command. So this is a little bit analogous and flowing from Melissa’s prior point, which is about healthy community. But one of the things that’s true is the Bible’s filled with commands. Nothing wrong with that. It’s also true that it’s perfectly okay for parents to give commands to their children. I think, though that’s going to look different at different ages. And as the child grows, the sort of order you around, phase is going to diminish and the conversation phase is going to increase. And so as you all think about moving out of the younger kid years and into the teenage years, the command versus conversation is a dynamic that has to be be looked at. Say more about that?

Melissa Kruger
Melissa, yeah. I mean, I think when you have a two year old, it’s totally fine to be like, do not run in the street. Yeah, you don’t need to have a conversation. It’s give them the command.

Michael Kruger
You don’t ask them what they think about what do you think about running industry? You know, why do you want to run

Melissa Kruger
into the street? Feel about the street? Why

Michael Kruger
do you want the street attractive to you? Do

Melissa Kruger
you find it wonderful? Do that? Just say don’t run in the street. But when kids get older and they’re saying things like, hey, I really want a cell phone, it can be just tempting to be like, nope. The rule is, we don’t do cell phones till 16, or you don’t date till you’re 16. It’s just

Michael Kruger
the rule 25 either 130 Yeah, or 30.

Melissa Kruger
But I think it’s really helpful at that age to start asking questions. Well, tell me, tell me why you want a cell phone so much, and then you might hear the reasons. And so maybe together you can come to a good solution. Maybe, they’re not getting any text. That is how everybody’s finding out that people are going for ice cream, and they never know. And so socially, they feel like they don’t know everybody. So it’s a it’s good to understand what’s the reason they want something, because maybe you can come to your creative solution again. And I do want to stress this, obviously, when it comes to God’s commands. Those are fixed, right? I mean, those don’t change. So we’re not talking about those. But every home has house rules. You know, when do you get a cell phone? When are you going to date? When are you you know, how late can you stay out at night, different things like that. Those rules, here’s what I want to give you, this piece of free. To you can change your mind. It’s really Yeah. You can realize, huh, we made a really bad call on this, and you are actually allowed to say, yeah. We thought we were going to wait until 25 to let you date, but we decided that wasn’t reasonable, you know. And you can, you can actually change your mind on this.

Michael Kruger
Well, you want the age to go up? Does that count?

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, but, and so I just always want to say, Have the conversation. And here’s why your child is you know, even even starting like 1415 you’ve got about four years left with them in your home, having the conversation helps them learn how to make good choices when they go off and you’re not there to have the conversation with them anymore. So you want to invite them into that conversation with you, so that they’re understanding the thought process behind rules and so that they can actually start to make those for themselves. But having the conversation with them allows for that to happen. It also allows for relationship to happen between the two of you, when you when you’re having a real a real conversation, not just to placate them. Say, tell me a little bit more about why this is,

Michael Kruger
yeah, one of the ways I think of it is is we spend most of our lives as parents asking our kids to listen to us, right? But as they age, we also want to make sure listening to them, relationships are two way streets. So to riff off Hamilton a second, talk less, listen more, right? Or you could smile too. Talk less, smile more. There’s a sense as parents that we want to think about not just giving speeches all the time, but really listening and make sure we’re taking that in. Okay. Principle number six, this one’s going to be a big one, and this is just one that we want to get on the table here as our time’s getting closer to the end. Number six is this, you can’t protect your kids from difficulty and suffering. You can’t protect your kids from difficulty and suffering. Now some of you may want to modify that and say, well, maybe I can’t protect them from all difficulty and suffering, but if I work really hard, I can reduce their difficulty and suffering as much as I possibly can. I would suggest to you that, if we’re honest with ourselves, one of our major parenting goals in life is to find every way to take everything difficult out of our kids life as much as we can. And by the way, I don’t think that’s all misguided. I think there’s legitimacy to that. We don’t want to put our kids in unnecessary risks or dangers and so forth. But I think the reality of living in a fallen world is that that won’t happen First of all, and secondly, we’re actually not preparing them for when it happens later, and we’re out of the picture. How do they know how to deal with life’s difficulties and problems in life in a fall world? So this is a really key principle that we’ve had to learn over the years. What are some of your thoughts on that one?

Melissa Kruger
Melissa, yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, the reality is probably we could all go back to our childhood or teen years and remember certain lessons we learned because of failure in our life, whatever it may have been, and those are really important lessons, and I would say, are safer lessons to learn within the context of your home, then almost going through childhood with nothing hard ever happening. You know, there’s something to learning that you’re going to survive, whether it’s a breakup or a friend breakup, or, you know, a B, which, right now seems like suffering in our school system, you know, like that, that you you can actually get past it. There’s a really good book by Madeleine Levine. It’s called the price of privilege. It’s not a Christian book, but it’s she’s just, it’s an excellent book, and this is what she says. Difficult as it can be for parents, it is imperative that we allow our children to go out into the world, to try their hand, to bang up against difficulties, to learn how to fall down and then get up again. By allowing them to occasionally get bruised in childhood, we are helping to make certain they don’t get broken in adolescence, and by allowing them their failures and adolescence, we are helping to lay the groundwork for success in adulthood. And so really, what we want to say to our kids is, I can’t protect you from hard things, but I am here with you. And you know, when we look through all the Old Testament the Lord, whenever he comes to his people and says, Do not fear. What he doesn’t say is, don’t fear because there’s nothing hard. He doesn’t say, Don’t fear because there aren’t real giants in land. Don’t fear, you know, because difficulties don’t happen. He says, Fear not, for I am with you. And so what we want to model as parents, you know, when our kid is the only one who doesn’t get invited to something that they really wanted to be invited, you know, what we don’t have to do is tell them how mean those other kids are, or call the parent or solve the problem. So we can just be there, and we can just say, Hey, I’m really sorry this is hard, but I’m here with you. You want to watch a movie with me tonight? And they may say, no, they don’t want to, but just being present, and I think just a few things, I will say, try not to belittle what they’re going through. It can be really tempting to be like, ah, that’s so silly. You’re going to be fine. Don’t. Don’t. For them, you know, try to remember what it was like the first time you got your heart broken, or the first time, you know, a friend group left you out in their world. It’s huge. So to treat them with that kindness and that listening ear and just saying, Hey, I’m here and I’ll pray for you and pray with them right then those things are the ways we can enter in without solving it, but saying I’m with you in it.

Michael Kruger
So the whole phenomenon of parents trying to fix everything in their child’s life, protect their children from everything, a great example of this is something I just recently wrote about in an article that got published this year about the epidemic of anger in our country, and one of the classic manifestations of this is that something you probably don’t realize is what is a nationwide youth sports referee shortage. This is not this is not made up. This is true. Many places around the country are having trouble finding youth sports referees because they are so incessantly berated by parents for every missed call, for everything that they think has been done wrong to their child, everything every slight on the field or on the court. And these referees are fed up, and we’re not talking about just yelling. We’re talking about assaults on the parking lot when the game is over, we’re talking about physical altercations, we’re talking about threats and in all kinds of confrontations. And you know, we’re hoping not many of these people are Christians, Okay, fair enough, but I imagine some Christians do that sort of thing and feel that sort of way, but it just captures exact point, which is, it, is it really our job to protect our child from even a bad call in a soccer game, or do we need to realize that’s part of life and to be handing that over to God in a more fundamental way? Okay, that brings this to the last and final principle seven we’ve shared with you. And here is the last one. And as I lay out the last one, let me just remind you what the seven are here as we draw this to our close the first principle is, our hope must be God oriented, not child oriented. Second, parenting begins not by making sure your kids follow God, but making sure you follow God. Three, don’t underestimate the power of the basics. Four, don’t forget the power of warmth and building Christian community in your home. Number five, leave with a conversation, not a command. Number six, you can’t protect your kids from all difficulty and suffering. And finally, number seven, which is equally challenging and important, particularly for those who have older kids, leave room for doubts and questions. Leave room for doubts and questions. I wish we had a lot of time to unpack this, but I’ve written about this in my recent book, Surviving religion, 101, which is about how to keep your faith in college, in the midst of doubts, intellectual doubts. But intellectual doubts don’t start in college. Intellectual doubts start in the home when you’re in high school, maybe even junior high and earlier. So as parents, what’s our advice to you? Don’t feel like your number one job is to sniff out every doubt or question and squash it out of the gate, give them a chance to express it, talk about it, so you can answer it. In other words, don’t take the path of what’s called doubt shaming, where every time your kid wonders, do I really believe that? Or is that really true? Or what about this or that? That you just squash it out of fear? Oh no, my child’s expressing some sort of dissonance to the face. So therefore I’ve got to make sure I nip it in the bud. No, that’s not actually how doubt works. Doubt works and it’s solved when it’s brought into light. And there’s a conversation that can happen, and who should that conversation be with, not their secular college professors or not their roommates in college, the conversation ought to happen first with the parents, but it can only happen first with the parents if you are open to that or unwilling to let them express their doubts and questions.

Melissa Kruger
Can I say something? Sure. One thing, I think, as parents, it can be really stressful when they come home with these questions, like, Well, how do you even know the Bible’s true? And you’re like, I have no idea. I don’t know why that is, do I do? I do. It’s true. Yeah. That’s, that’s yeah, where you’re like, oh my goodness, and you’re thinking, Well, you know, when you’re married to, you’re married to a guy who, that’s what he does his research. And you’re like, oh, okay, I can just go to him, but, but, but the reality is, what I’ve watched you do so well, is kids will come to with come to you with questions, and you can’t answer them about the Bible.

Michael Kruger
My children are routinely unimpressed with me as a scholar. My son will say, Dad, I thought you were a Bible scholar. What’s your it doesn’t like I’m sorry. I’m sorry. Let me answer.

Melissa Kruger
And I actually think one of the best things you can say, one is, you know, I’m not actually sure how to answer your question. That human. Ability is it’s just great to say, but hey, maybe we could talk to our pastor together, or try to find out together. Don’t feel like you have to have all the answers to their doubts instead. Also just be curious. Tell me. Tell me what you’re struggling with. God’s word. What don’t you like about it? Where you know, because sometimes that’s going to give you hints into what’s really going on, but to engage with them and be curious. And again, I think it’s really tempting to give them, you know, a 20 point mini sermon about why they should believe. But this is the thing. By high school, they actually know what you think, what you’re trying to do as a parent is understand what they think, and so this is the time to patiently be curious and ask them questions. Hey, I’m trying to understand what you’re struggling with about faith. Enter in with them. It’s, it’s so scary as a parent when one of our kids may not believe I mean, it’s terrifying, but I just want to remind you, it’s, it’s a pretty normative thing to go through questioning, and usually they come out on the other side with better faith. They need to go through some of that wrestling on their own, and it’s normal for them to start thinking, why do I believe this book? Yeah, I mean, that’s a we all had to get there. Why do I Why do I base my life on this book? So I would just say, Be compassionate in that as they’re having these questions, and be curious about why, and then help them get help, but don’t feel like you have to have all the answers in that.

Michael Kruger
Well, that’s a great way to close this out. Today. We want to thank you all for coming out to this session. It was really a fun conversation and lot to think about, lot of stuff to take away. We trust it’s been a blessing to you and Melissa and I’ll be up front and look forward to talking to you when it’s over. Thank you very much.