The Dish on Gossip

The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.

Melissa Kruger
But I think sin gets painted. And again, we were talking about this a little bit earlier as the thing we’re being kept from. That’s what Satan did. He painted it as the one thing you can’t have. That would be so fun. Wouldn’t it be so fun to just chit chat with Courtney about this? You know, like I can just and, oh, it’s gonna keep us from fun. And I just think sometimes we need to take a really hard look at the ugliness and misery of sin, not so that we feel condemned by it, so that we hate it. Must spit it out.

Courtney Doctor
Welcome to the deep dish, a podcast from the gospel coalition, where we love having deep conversations about deep truths. I’m Courtney doctor, and I’m here with my friend and co host, Melissa Krueger, and today, it just hurts to even say it. Today, we are going to talk about gossip. And, you know, let me just start by saying it’s it’s it’s hard, right? It’s hard not to gossip. I think for all of us, it’s, it’s easy to mask something as concern. And, you know, let’s be honest, we kind of like talking about others, and we’re going to talk more about that. So what I want to do is start by getting a definition Melissa of gossip. But before you do that, I was gonna share with you, you know, if you ever heard of your, like, birthday verse, or your golden verse, or whatever it is, or you look up in Proverbs? Well, mine proverbs 1113 because I’m November 13. Okay, so years ago, I got so excited. Somebody said, yeah, you have like, a, you know, birthday verse, or whatever it’s called. And so I ran to look it up. And this is what it says in the NIV, which is what I was reading when I was told to look this up. Proverbs 1113, says a gossip betrays a confidence, but a trustworthy person keeps a secret. And so here I am a new believer in my 20s, and I just was like, Lord. So even early on in my Christian walk, the Lord was like, girl, don’t do it. Don’t do it. So what is it we are trying not to do? How would you define gossip?

Melissa Kruger
Okay, I’m totally sidetracked. I’ve never heard about the Proverbs with the birthday thing.

Courtney Doctor
Okay, that’s kind of fun for anybody who has listened to all of our podcasts. Back me up on this. I mentioned it on another, on another deep dish podcast. Okay, put that in the comments. Please back me up. I am pretty sure I talked about, like, our birthday proverb in another, in another deep dish.

Melissa Kruger
I probably just was like, oh, pretending like I knew what that was and had no idea what that was. I’m like, that’s really fun. Now I’m like, totally intrigued to go see what Proverbs 323 is. It’s probably like, something about, like, murdered,

Courtney Doctor
angry person. Look it up while you define gossip. Don’t even think that. I won’t. It’ll probably be something about, like, the righteous woman, this or that. I’m scared to know what it is. Well, I’m gonna tell you,

Melissa Kruger
but it’s so funny. Even when you started with the phrase, we’re gonna talk today about gossip, it sounds like we’re gossiping about gossip. I mean, I’m so like, okay, because this is such a tough topic, and I would say even for me, what I’ve thought about defining this in the past, I’ve had a lot of like Melissa definitions of gossip, you know. So one of those would have been saying something bad about someone behind their back, which I think that’s what we often think of. But I’ve realized it’s much more expansive than just saying something bad about someone behind their back. And so I actually looked up some definitions, so we’ll throw these out. These are, you know, Webster’s or whatever, Google whatever, yeah, but hopefully they’ll help us get us started. And I thought these were really interesting. This is one definition, casual or unconstrained conversation or reports about other people, typically involving events that are not confirmed as being true, so they’re just not confirmed as being true. So that’s something and then, in the biblical context, gossip is broadly understood as idle, harmful talk about others, often involving secrets or rumors. It can range from spreading rumors and secrets to casting doubts upon a person’s character or actions. Essentially, it is any talk that is not beneficial or truthful about another person. Let’s just stop

Courtney Doctor
talking now, right? That’s so I like the idol piece of that like that’s and I have shared this on another episode that we had. Do you remember this one? Yeah, okay, that there was that little piece of paper, you know, growing up on our phone desk that said, Little People talk about other people. And then it went on to say, average people talk about things, and great people talk about ideas, and we’ve already discussed the merits and, you know, the pros and cons of that statement. But the reality is, it stuck with me. Little People talk about people. So. I’m seeing this theme in my life all of a sudden that I hadn’t seen before. So I grow up with this thing on the phone desk in front of me. Little People talk about other people. Then the my birthday proverb is about gossiping. And then, do you know what the very first verse that I memorized out of all of Scripture was Ephesians, 429, I was wondering that not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit all who listen. Now, I think we need to unpack that, but that idle talk, that’s what when you when you mentioned that in this definition, I was like, oh, that’s it’s idle to just not to not have it be beneficial, to not have the words that we speak benefit not just those that we’re speaking to, but to benefit anybody else who’s listening to honestly. How does it benefit ourselves? And so anyway, oh, I’m, I’m now really excited to talk about this. Maybe it’s, maybe this is the place the Lord’s been bringing me all these years to really dig deep into into gossip. But let’s start with what. What do the Scriptures say, besides Ephesians 429

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, Ephesians 429 is so good. I mean, I remember we used to say that to each other, like Ephesians 429 it was kind of like the way you stopped gossip. I mean, it was high school. You could do that kind of thing, or whatever. We’d be like Ephesians 429, not gonna say anything. I

Courtney Doctor
was not telling people Ephesians 429, in high school. Just everything out there,

Melissa Kruger
interesting, but anyway. But I think there are some really good verses, one that just comes to mind that I didn’t even write down the verse. Reference is when words are many. Sin is not absent. And so I think there is just a reality we live in a words culture right now. I mean, we have so many ways to express ourselves. Thanks Instagram, thanks Facebook, thanks Twitter. I mean, you know, before I might be able to just tell you something, but now words are very many, and sin is not absent, and probably one of those sins is going to be gossip. That’s probably the easiest of the bunch. We might get to slander, we might get to lying, but gossips probably right, right up there. But another one’s and this one’s really painful. This is Proverbs, 1628, a dishonest man spreads strife, and a whisper separates close friends. You know, it’s like you start to see the effects right of a whisperer. Right? Like, yeah, just like, lean in close. Listen to what I have to say. Well,

Courtney Doctor
don’t whisper. You need to ask yourself, why? Like, who do you not want to hear? Yeah,

Melissa Kruger
oh, that’s right. Whispers should be about good surprises. Let’s just say

Courtney Doctor
that, yeah. Like, we have a joke in our family. One of my daughter’s friends mothers would say I probably shouldn’t even share this. It’s so it’s not here we go, here we go, here we go, unhinge. It’s theologically not sound. So just let me but she would say a whisper is a lie, and a lie is a sin. Can’t even say it, and when you get to heaven, you won’t get in. So we might cut

Melissa Kruger
that theologically, we don’t lie, but it’s good to think about what you’re whispering about. Yeah, it’s when I have to lower my voice. Should I be saying what I’m saying? You know, unless you’re a mother, disciplining, because, you know, when I was disciplining, when I got real quiet, the children knew it was bad, like, that’s your scary voice, Mom, it’s not loud, real, real quiet. Yeah. Well, what about you like? What verses come to mind when you think about gossip specifically,

Courtney Doctor
yeah, besides the Ephesians verse and a ton of verses in Proverbs and a ton of verses in James, right? I mean, they’re just like, like, the tongue is just full of all this. I think about that verse in James actually all the time where it’s like, you know, you both these two types of water, fresh water and salty water should not come from the same spring. And I think, you know, especially as a Bible teacher, like, I want my words to be life giving. I want them. I want I want to be speaking the Word of God, and then how often is the same spring my mouth being used for two different purposes? So that’s a really convicting one. I

Melissa Kruger
remember in James because you wrote the Bible study steadfast on it, and you had the drawing of the rudder and the bit and bridal, you know, and it was that powerful, like the rudder is so small, but it directs the whole ship. And it was such a the visual image of it made me stop and pause and be like, oh, a very little thing, a very little thing. Really powerful. Powerful. Yeah, James is so good draw those

Courtney Doctor
drawers for us, because the bit, again, in the horse’s mouth, it’s so small compared to the horse. And I remember reading one time that our tongue is like, three and a half inches, eight ounces. I don’t know it’s like, it’s this little, you know, slab of whatever it’s made out of as a muscle, but it’s, you know, it’s, yeah, anyway, it’s just this nasty little thing, but it’s so little, but it can just do so much harm. And so also in Romans, you know, the first three and a half, two and a half chapters in Romans are just all about this idea that the wrath of God is being revealed against the wickedness in the world. And guess what’s listed there in the first chapter of Romans, Romans 129, it says they were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness, they are gossips, just like, what murderers, evil, unrighteous and gossiping like, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a serious thing to stop and ponder, yeah, the weight of our words and to kind of accumulate these passages together about what the Lord thinks,

Melissa Kruger
yeah, because we just think it’s not that big of a deal. Yeah, you know, and I’m putting this together. I mean, sometimes it’s, it’s like, oh, yeah, how did the whole world fall on a lie, on a lie. How did the whole world start on a speech? God spoke

Courtney Doctor
with a word, yeah, a word, yeah. I’ve heard it said before that. You know, God’s words are omnipotent, but our words are potent, and that we need to, like, give pause for that. And so, yeah, our words can be right. God’s word spoke everything into existence. It’s the it’s the ultimate life giving. He created life by his word. And so our words can be life giving. We should have a whole episode on that, on what life giving

Melissa Kruger
words, I love that verse. Reckless words Pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing. It’s that exact picture. Our words can bring healing, or they can be like sword crossed,

Courtney Doctor
right? So why is it so damaging? Because I think we tend to just, it’s just such an excusable sin, right? So clearly, it’s a sin. So gossiping is a sin. I mean, Scripture is very, very clear about that, but, but why? Like, why is it so damaging, and why are we so quick to be like, oh, you know what? I mean, yeah, I can’t, I can’t help it, you know? I mean, we don’t say that about murder, we don’t say that about adultery. I can’t help it, you know? Yeah,

Melissa Kruger
I think in the moment, and we’ve talked about this some before, I think in the moment, it creates a false sense of sense of intimacy between you and the person who are chatting. It’s such a lie, and it’s such a lie. It’s just like Satan in the garden saying, if you eat, then you will, then you will know, you will understand. You will be like, God, you know, in some sense, and I think there’s this false sense of we’re better, weird. I mean, the heart is pride, right? Like to talk about someone else because you’re, you’re normally using it to say why they’re not so great, you know? And I can remember, I mean, I’ve been in circles, you know, you’re standing around talking about someone, and let’s say someone’s talking positively about someone. Yeah, that talk, or she led that Bible study so well. And then I’ve watched, yep, someone come in and just, well, I mean, you know, she doesn’t, she doesn’t, her husband’s home every day at four o’clock, right? So, yeah, she has plenty of time. Yeah, it’s so, so that might be true, right? Her husband might be. But it’s just, I’m gonna somehow take her character or and make her seem a little

Courtney Doctor
lesser. Yeah, have you ever heard that analogy about the crabs in a bucket that

Melissa Kruger
probably but I’ve forgotten, so let’s tell me again.

Courtney Doctor
Yeah, I told you this yesterday, but no, just kidding. Where if you have a whole bunch of crabs in a bucket, I don’t know if this is true or not, but if this is true or not, but if you have a whole bunch of crabs in a bucket, and one of them starts to crawl out, the others will actually reach up and grab it and pull it back down. And it’s such an image of how we can be, like you were saying with our words, like, why do we want to do that? Why do we want to take away a pot? Positive from somebody or promote the negative, either to them or to someone else, which is what we’re talking about in this episode. And I think you’re right. I think we just, we love to be people that are in the know. Like, have you ever, I mean, I’ve seen it in myself, even if it’s bad news, I like be the one to share it, right? Like, what is that I hate that I don’t I know. Why would I want to spread sad or bad news? Yeah?

Melissa Kruger
But I think what it does relate positionally. It says, Oh, I know what’s going it’s power. Knowledge is power, yeah, yeah. And it’s even relational power, right? So let’s say you’re going through something and and people are rightly chitter chattering about it, you know, because they care about you. So there’s a rightness that we say, oh, did you hear about this? I’m so sorry that that’s going on. And then I step in because I want to prove relationally I’m closer

Courtney Doctor
to you. That is so true. It’s like, I know more about this because I know her better than you. It’s like a power play, really simply, oh, this. This does not make us as humans as you know, people look very good, does it? It often distances us when we’re talking about somebody else. It distances us from them. You know what? Like you were saying you’re you’re alluding to that, like this idea that you know what they struggle with, well, that I just want, I want the person I’m in the conversation with to know that I’m not like that. I’m better than that. Yes, there’s just so much going on in our hearts. Isn’t there at the moment that we’re that we’re engaging in gossip, our desire to gossip, our engagement with gossip is just so much,

Melissa Kruger
yes. So let me ask you this question. We’ve all been in scenarios, you know, where you’re sitting around and a conversation is turning to gossip like slowly, it’s just getting there, it’s kind of building. Well, I heard Yeah, oh no, no, yeah, or whatever I heard Yeah. I heard their marriage is really struggling, or some, I don’t know, whatever it might take. Do you have any like ways to how do you? How do you? How can we be helpful in a conversation to turn it from Gossip, gossip.

Courtney Doctor
Well, I think first recognizing, like, what are some things that Tim, what are some things that are like, phrases, or what kind of happens prior, so that you can be like, Okay, I’m I’m gonna look so that I’m ready to respond. And so, you know, the latest is, you know, I’m gonna spill the tea, like, Oh, give me the tea, right?

Melissa Kruger
Oh, my goodness. And I say this to my daughter, right? I want to get the high school tea. I’m probably not helping her. Oh, yeah,

Courtney Doctor
all the time, right? I mean, we want to know, or the one that gets me, and I’m, I’ve said it a million times and I it’s the worst thing I think we can say is, don’t tell anyone, but because the reality is, someone told me, and probably started with that phrase, don’t tell anyone. Well, I just, you know, like, I’m just gonna run to Melissa and tell her, because, you know, I want to tell you, but then I tell you, then I put the then I put the burden of confidentiality on you, and it was a burden that I couldn’t keep, right? I I was not supposed to tell anyone, but, and then I can’t do it, so then I put it on on someone else, and I’m asking them to bear a weight that I couldn’t bear. Um, obviously in Christian circles, it’s, you know, we need to pray for. I mean, we need to, you know, and we do need to pray for, but, but do we need to go into the details and the specifics that are not ours to share? No, we don’t. So if you see someone heading in that direction, what are some ways to shut it down? Like, what? How can we better press into not be so we don’t want to gossip ourselves, but we also don’t want to be a participant in listening to a bystander in that. So how do you how do you shut it down?

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, I think it’s tough. I mean, you know, there’s the direct route, but to say, hey, this conversation is really not going in a direction that I want it to go, I will admit I don’t usually pick that one. I appreciate when people do, though I actually really do. I don’t mind it. I think it’s a good check, and it reminds everyone. I tend to go the, let me think of something positive to say about this person, or an understanding route to the about the person. So I might say, well, you know, I know her husband does whatever, you know, work, get off at four, but I know that she works really hard at this, and so, yeah, like, try to bring it back around to the positive, because it can just stop the trend. Whatever it might be, right? I don’t know. Do. You have any good well,

Courtney Doctor
no surprise that I’m more confrontational than you. That isn’t a surprise to anybody listening. I don’t think if you know us at all, but I have started, I’m not, I’m not as consistent as I would like to be in that but, but started to say things like, you know, I don’t want this to slip into gossip. And so that kind of means, you know. And I’ll say, I don’t want this to slip into gossip, so I’ll just ask her about it, you know, and try to just put it in that. Or if somebody says, you know, okay, don’t tell anyone, but, and I’ll say, You know what, if you’re not supposed to tell me, don’t just, that’s good. Trying to, trying to just say this, I don’t want to do this. I don’t want to do this, but, but we all do and this is what we keep coming back to. So if you come away from a conversation and you realize that either you’ve been gossiping or you’ve been listening to gossip, what do we do? What’s the appropriate response of repentance and of sanctification in a way that’s not legalistic, that’s not socially weird, that doesn’t have to be, you know, and that isn’t overly dramatic. Like I had somebody come to me one time, and they took me to lunch, and they confessed to me that they had been really bitter towards me. Well, you know what? I didn’t actually need to know that, like that is different than gossip, because they could have just taken that to the Lord and just dealt with it, you know? But then now I have this 20 year knowledge that this person was really bitter. So we don’t have to be weird about it, right to say or

Melissa Kruger
do more harm with our confession? Yes, because there are confessions that can harm,

Courtney Doctor
there are confessions that can harm. I wasn’t the person she needed to confess to, but gossip is a personal offense and so Exactly. So what do you recommend?

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, I think, I think it’s definitely before the Lord, and normally he’s going to put it on your heart. You know, if you say, Lord, is there anything I need to be convicted of? And it just keeps nagging at you, I think definitely the person you gossiped with, if you can go back to them and say, hey, when I said that about Sue I really shouldn’t have it was inappropriate, my words weren’t kind, and I’m really sorry I did that. It wasn’t hopeful to do

Courtney Doctor
and we’ve done that. I mean, you and I have, have definitely done that. When it’s like, we’re just convicted, like, okay, that that conversation just slid into a place that it shouldn’t

Melissa Kruger
have exactly, exactly and so and most of those scenarios, I don’t normally think it’s even helpful to go to the person, yeah, unless it’s something that it was maybe public, yeah, in a way that deserves like that they know about it. But if they don’t know about the reality is that could do more harm, you know? Like, Hey, I was talking about how ugly your dress was. I mean, I don’t know, you know, that might just not be helpful in the moment. So it might depend upon what it is if you shared information you shouldn’t have shared. Like, let’s say it’s really sensitive, like, okay, you know, your husband is dealing with a disease, and I told I might then say, hey, I need to confess I told Courtney about that medical diagnosis, and I’m really sorry. I shouldn’t have done it. It was wrong. I want you to know how far it went, and that’s where it went, and I’m really sorry that feels probably is situational about when it’s appropriate to confess to the person you are gossiping. What do you think

Courtney Doctor
about I totally agree with you. I think the content of what you shared that was not yours to share. It matters. You’re right. If you said something like, you know, have you seen that new haircut? Like, that’s kind of ridiculous that you probably don’t need to go tell the person that you saw helpful, right? But you’re right, if it’s like you, you had shared something with me in confidence that was not mine to share. And so maybe that’s even it one of them. It wasn’t something that had been you were just talking bad about the person versus sharing something that they had told you. So maybe there’s a little bit of a difference there. If you’re actually passing information on from the person, and then when you pass it on, it’s about the person. Does that make sense? Yeah, then maybe that is so again, it’s not legalistic, but it is nuanced, and it is always worth taking to the Lord and asking him to show you what to do about it. And so to first confess to him, that’s right, and confess to the person to whom you were speaking, and then pray about whether or not you need to confess to the person about whom, about whom you are speaking. King.

Melissa Kruger
And I think something about the level of damage could matter too, like if something you said is going to cause further damage, especially if the person doesn’t know it was said, what you just really have to be careful. And I think this is so important for us to remember about all of sin. I think sometimes we think sin is just the fun stuff, and the Bible’s keeping us from it. No sin is a pit, can I say from the bottom of hell? Yeah, like that is corrosive to our soul. Maybe that was too strong. Maybe I need to, like, say something different, but it’s all bad it, you know, so and

Courtney Doctor
it’s damaging. I’ve said it before, like sin is all sin is equally damning in that it deserves the wrath of God, but not all sin is equally damaging to others. And so our sin damages other people like we go through life as both sinners and people who have been sinned against people who suffer and who have caused the suffering of others. And so our sin is we’ve been damaged by people sinning against us, and we damage people by sinning against them. And gossip is a very common way. And I think we tend to think, Oh, it’s just gossip. But no, it is. It is damaging. So can you talk about a time that you have felt the weight or the repercussions or the damage of gossip?

Melissa Kruger
Yes. I mean, I think we’ve all maybe sensed it. Have you ever walked in a room you’re like, oh, they stopped talking. Yeah, that’s awkward. And you’re just like, What? What was that about? I sometimes rely on my mom at that point, when she was like, people generally aren’t really thinking about you as much as you’re thinking about yourself. So that’s always a good rule. It may have been they were totally talking about something different, but we all had that feeling. But I definitely had some. I’ve had some situations in our life because of, you know, and you’re in this situation too, when you’re married to a pastor, sometimes your life gets talked about more. There’s just a public nature. And I think we have to be careful about this. I want you, yeah, even listeners, as you think about people in your life who are leaders around you. Sometimes they do just get talked about more, yeah, whether it’s the assistant pastor of your church, where his kids go to school or whatever, where they went out to dinner. Can you believe? Yeah, wow, we must be maybe we’re paying them too

Courtney Doctor
much. Yeah, exactly what in the world like, Oh, my word.

Melissa Kruger
They can take that vacation. That’s nice. I mean, yeah, like, just these ways, but they’re really painful, because in that moment, what would it be great for that pastor or somebody here? I’m so glad you all get to take this vacation. I know your family needs it. Like, rather than a biting like, Hmm, in that nice they get to do that. So that can be gossip too. Like, yeah, just the way we’re positioning something. And so I have, I have felt the sting of it when I realize, you know, I told something to person A, and now I’m talking to person E, yeah, and like, there’s, I told one person this, and now person E is repeating back to me this very thing, that there’s no way it wasn’t heard. So I just knew it was talked about. And it was really painful because, and it immediately made me think, I can’t trust this person. And so then it’s really tempting when you’ve been hurt in that way, to become really isolationistic, like, I’m just, Yep, I got a journal. I’m gonna talk to Jesus. Yeah, and that’s not healthy either. So when we’ve been wronged by it, the answer isn’t to isolate and go into ourselves. It’s, you know, to realize, okay, this was a wrong done. I need to forgive the person, maybe confront the person, like, Hey, you were the only person I told this. And it it, I feel like it got discussed. And I’ve done that, I have done that, and it’s, it’s painful to do, but it’s just so, so even in that scenario, it wasn’t some deep, dark secret that was being shared. It was just the notion of, I really asked you not to say anything about this. And it’s, it just hurts,

Courtney Doctor
you know, and it does affect your, like, confidence and trust in that person. In the same way, I don’t think we really talked about this, but in the same way that when somebody gossips to me, I think, yes, ooh, that is, like, if they’re kind of characterized by gossiping, I’m like, you kind of just know, like, this is not a person that can hold a confidence. And I think one of our hopes in this episode is to cast a vision for the beauty of being women that. Are that use our words as life givers, not just to others, but about others, and as women who are increasingly women who can hold a proper confidence for each other. And, you know, navigating our own hearts in this that we don’t, that we don’t want to be the one that pulls someone else down, that we kind of start recognizing the things in our own heart that cause us to gossip. But that is that is really painful, you know, I I think I’ve probably been on that end, but also on the other end, where I’ve been caught in a gossip, where I’ve been the one who, you know, somebody comes and says, You were the one I told and it’s now at person E, and it’s like, oh, you know, it’s just because it does alter that relationship. It alters that friendship, when, when a trust has been lost. And, yeah, how do we, how do we press into this? I think, you know, when we first talked about doing this episode, I was kind of like, oh, you know, we all, like everybody knows it’s wrong, and yet, I think what we don’t do often enough is stop and think about the damage that it causes to everybody involved, including ourselves, yep, and our own. Because we’re not pursuing our own sanctification. Then if we’re not paying attention to, you know, you know what’s going on in our hearts,

Melissa Kruger
and can we can kind of pause on that really quickly, because I think we maybe don’t talk about the ugliness of sin enough. And what I mean by that is not to condemn the sinner. We’re all that person, yeah, but I think sin gets painted. And again, we were talking about this a little bit earlier as the thing we’re being kept from. That’s what Satan did. He painted it as the one thing you can’t have be so fun. Wouldn’t it be so fun to just chit chat with Courtney about this? You know, like, I can just and, oh, it’s gonna keep us from fun. And I just think sometimes we need to take a really hard look at the ugliness and misery of sin, not so that we feel condemned by it, so that we hate it and want to spit it out, yeah, as the most unsavory thing, you know, and that we just pause on it and say this sin is yucky and ugly and we feel terrible. It’s like eating that thing you knew you shouldn’t eat, and then you feel cruddy. Yeah, it’s, it’s that. It’s, it feels sweet to the tongue, and it makes the stomach sour. And I think just sometimes we need to sit in its ugliness and how it can ruin a friendship.

Courtney Doctor
Well, ruin a friendship. But even as you were talking and you were saying, like, Oh, I just really want to tell you know, Melissa, that one thing. And we alluded to this earlier, about the bond that occurs when you, you know, because you’re saying, like, Hey, you and I, we can talk about this, and it, it gives this. It’s a fake bond, I mean, and the strength of the friendship is only as strong as the thing that unites you and you and I have talked about, Ooh, that’s good, right? And so that’s good, yeah, if what unites us is sitting around gossiping about people, or what unites you and another friend is your love of tennis, great, like that’s there are different things that bond us with people, but the strength of that thing is going to determine the strength of your friendship. So if it is partnership in the Gospel, if it is pursuing Christ like that, is a that is a friendship that is going to go the distance, that is a friendship that is worth pursuing. And so even paying attention to what is it that bonds me with this person, if I am characterized in my in this particular relationship, am I characterized by just sitting around gossiping about people like is that the thing that unites us? And we all know friendships? That that is what unites you? Yes, there is just such a better way to have such a stronger, deeper, more true friendships, true friendships to be had. Well, let me

Melissa Kruger
ask you this question about that, because this is what I see happening now. When someone shares something on social media, okay, they actually shared it. It’s like they’re gossiping about themselves. But then I’ve also heard, can you believe she shared

Courtney Doctor
that? Oh yeah, we gossip about their gossip, yes.

Melissa Kruger
Like, I mean, that’s a lot to put out there.

Courtney Doctor
I said it, you know, like, I you edit, yeah, you know, it’s like, oh, I’m the one you’re referring to. You’re like, No, I wasn’t,

Melissa Kruger
actually, but, like, I’m just like, oh, so how? How do we interact with social media? Because at that point, in some ways, it is weirdly public. This person told everyone, right? And even maybe celebrity gossip. I mean, that’s like a whole, like, just thing we’re allowed to talk about. But I think. Think the thing about gossip is it objectifies a person.

Courtney Doctor
Yeah, I’m going back to your definition. And you said, in a biblical context, Goss, gossip is broadly understood as idle, harmful talk about others, and so we’re taking their own self report, but we’re flipping it into a negative, into our we’re putting our opinion on it. We’re putting our, you know, we are sitting in judgment of them and in whatever it was they shared about themselves. And so then, you know, James talks about this too, like, Don’t make yourself as judge. And so, you know, I think that that’s part of it is then we are then trying to both spread that fact beyond what you know. I mean, maybe you don’t follow that person, maybe you didn’t know it, but I think it’s the whole like, what is, what is our desire in doing it? What is our motive? What are we trying to accomplish? And so somebody could share, I mean, you could call me and say, I saw on social media that so and so is, you know, got a promotion, or has a new book contract, or is having a baby, or whatever it is. Yes, that’s not gossip. That’s like you’re, you’re sharing the beauty of something with me. But if you were to call and say, you know, I just read on social media that she is getting a divorce, and you know what, I’m not surprised because, you know. So I think we just again, have to pay attention to both the content of the conversation, but also our heart in it. So, yeah, I think, and we can hide behind, well, she posted it, it’s public, yes, you know, how is that gossip? Yeah, if she’s posted it, well, it can totally be gossip. When we go back to your definition, that word idol just really gets me. It is.

Melissa Kruger
It’s just like, why are we filling our minds with this stuff, right? Why are we filling our days with this? Yeah, I mean, and then the Scriptures do tell us what, whatever’s lovely, whatever’s praiseworthy, if anything is excellent or trustworthy. Think

Courtney Doctor
about these things, yeah, and yet about these things. It’s how you become a gospel centered friend, because you say things in the context of a conversation that point people to the gospel that you know encourage sanctification, that encourage edification. You know, just even back to that Ephesians verse only say, only the talk that comes out of your mouth, only have that be what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen, all those who listen, so there, and that includes you as the speaker. Like, is this wholesome? Is this edifying? Is this encouraging? Is this beneficial? I mean, it just kind of dovetails with with the verse in Second, Timothy, whereas, whereas, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy,

Melissa Kruger
no idea where it is. What’s in there, we’ll drop in there. We’ll find it.

Unknown Speaker
Sometimes our brains are tired.

Melissa Kruger
I can’t remember stories you’ve told me. Are you kidding? You’re really

Courtney Doctor
bad where no you are the Bible Memory Verse, queen, those out so well, okay, well, let’s end on a positive note with a question, who in your life has been a good example of someone who won’t engage in gossip? This

Melissa Kruger
is a great question. And you know, I realize I love these conversations because I’m actually learning myself while we’re having them. We always want to probably explain that I’m working some things out. And what I realized as we’re talking about this, it’s the women in my life who I know are in the word regularly. Because here’s the thing, you can’t put off sin until you’re putting on something else. There’s all through Scripture. Put off, put on, put off, put on. And so we’re never gonna overflow with that those good things if we’re not, yeah, putting off the gossip, but putting on God’s word and and so when I think about women in my life who I’m like, ooh, we just always have rich conversations. And I want to honestly say it’s a lot of the women we work here with at TGC, yeah. I mean, like our conversations, and I mean this, they are filled with, yeah, maybe what’s going on with people’s lives, but prayerfully meaning their own life, like they’re going to share. Oh, this hard thing happened, but often it’s I saw this in scripture this morning, and this is amazing. You know, this is what I’m thinking through. Or this hit me. I’m so thankful to work with women who are putting on, yeah, Scripture and put in memorizing it. We have some friends who memorize whole passages and all these long, long things, and I can tell, I know it comes out because they’re thinking about different things, and they’re talking about different things so that mindless scrolling we’re doing or whatever, it’s not mindless. Yeah. No, it’s actually an input, yeah, and that’s gonna be your

Courtney Doctor
output. So good.

Melissa Kruger
And so that for those are the women. For me, I don’t know if you have anyone specific. You might have a

Courtney Doctor
well, I was just thinking about it, because this weekend, this past weekend, we were celebrating my mom’s 80th birthday, and we were all saying different things about her. I wrote her a letter, and we were giving some toast, and my aunt, her little sister, stood up and she said, No matter, she said, no matter how hard I’ve tried through the years, kind of tongue in cheek she’s like and I’ve tried, I cannot make her speak badly about others. And I thought, Wow. I mean, what a thing to say about someone else in their 80th year that I have known her for 77 years? No,

Melissa Kruger
you can tell your stuff to your sister, right, right? Like I know, like

Courtney Doctor
and my aunt, and if you’re listening, you know this is true. She wouldn’t hold back like she would not say that. And I’m sure she has tried, yeah, because we all do. But, I mean, I thought, What a thing to say about someone else, wow, right? Wow. Maybe that be said of all of no matter how hard someone tried to make us say, wow. Something bad about somebody that’s beautiful, right? I thought so too. Wow. Well, I am grateful for this conversation, even though talking about gossip is always convicting. So let me end by asking, what is your favorite thing other than Jesus? We all know so you can’t say Jesus. You can’t say the Bible. You can’t say your faith. What is your favorite thing for you to talk about?

Melissa Kruger
I mean, you know so well, food, talking about pizza. I want to talk about the cobbler. I want to talk about the food I’m growing. I want to talk about the food I’m eating. I want to talk about the food I’m cooking. Food I want to have you ever to cook for you about, I mean, food she

Courtney Doctor
is speaking the truth. I have been working on this menu for a gathering, and I was like, Hey, do you want to just talk through the food with me, because I knew she would like it. Okay. Before we end, I want to tell you all Melissa’s golden birthday verse. It’s, of course, it’s exactly what it is. So it’s in Proverbs three, and he’s and the writer is saying, maintain sound wisdom and discretion, my son, don’t lose sight of them. They will be life for you and adornment for your neck, and then here’s Melissa’s verse. Then you’ll go safely on your way. Your foot will not stumble. So as somebody who maintains sound wisdom and discretion, that is beautiful, beautiful, tell us in the comments what your birthday projects are. Here yours is about gossip. I just need some friends out there. We hope you have enjoyed this episode of the deep dish from the gospel coalition. If you found this conversation helpful, please like and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and consider sharing it with a friend as you pursue gospel conversations you.