A Deep Dish Birthday Party (with Special Guests)!

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0:00:00 – (Melissa Kruger): Our listeners don’t give us light and fluffy little questions. Y’ all like Deep Dish and you like to ask deep questions. So we brought in some help today to help us celebrate, but also to help answer some of these questions. But we’re going to start with one and then surprise people will be dropping in on us along the way. Do you want something first?

0:00:21 – (Courtney Doctor): No. Okay.

0:00:22 – (Melissa Kruger): No.

0:00:22 – (Courtney Doctor): Okay.

0:00:23 – (Melissa Kruger): We’ll keep it as a separate.

0:00:24 – (C): Take this.

0:00:24 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah, I love the surprise aspect. Okay.

0:00:27 – (Melissa Kruger): We’ll keep for the surprise.

0:00:29 – (Courtney Doctor): Foreign. Welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition where we love having deep conversations about deep truths. I am Courtney Docter and I’m here with my friend and co host, Melissa Krueger. And today I wish I had like balloons or something because we are celebrating the one year anniversary of the Deep Dish. It’s kind of hard. It’s kind of hard to believe, but so fun.

0:00:56 – (Melissa Kruger): I know. It’s been such a fun place to have these conversations. And what’s been really wonderful and surprising is so many people all over we hear from are listening in. I mean, it’s been such a gift to us to continue these conversations. Different places we go. I mean, Courtney, you were all the way in Australia talking to people and they were talking about the Deep Dish, which is kind of just amazing. Amazing to me.

0:01:25 – (Melissa Kruger): But let me ask you this. What’s been one of your favorite episodes or maybe even surprises about hosting this year?

0:01:31 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah, I think part of the surprise has been just that people actually want to listen to you and me having these conversations because we’ve said it so many times, these are kind of normal conversations that you and I tend to have. And then we just are hitting record. And so it’s been so, so fun to have people join us for those and then to hear, you know, ways that they’ve taken the conversations and furthered them with people in their real life.

0:01:59 – (Courtney Doctor): And I would just say, yeah, the, the places that I’ve been that people are. Are saying that they’re listening to the Deep Dish. So shout out to my friends in Perth, Australia. I mean, it’s pretty far away. And they were loving the Deep Dish. And so we’re just, we’re just praising God because we’re having a blast. And our prayer has been the whole time that this would be. These would be conversations that sor.

0:02:21 – (Courtney Doctor): Serve you in your real life and with your real friends and that you just continue to do this. I’d say one of my favorite episodes is actually one of the. It’s hard to pick, right? But There was something really almost sacred for me about interviewing Colleen Chow. If you haven’t listened to that episode, it’s. It was just a really beautiful gift that she gave us by spending time and energy on the podcast. And I just really value that.

0:02:50 – (Courtney Doctor): That episode in a. In a unique way. But one of our favorite ways. So we love these podcasts to be as interactive as possible. So a lot of times we’ll ask you to make comments in the. In the chat, or not the chat, but in the notes, and. And then we give you discussion questions. But one of our favorite ways. This is the second time we’ve done it, to bring listeners into the show is to ask you for questions and then try to answer them. So today we’re actually going to gathered. You guys were great. You sent in some great questions, but we’re going to spe some time answering some of those that you sent in.

0:03:25 – (Courtney Doctor): But, Melissa, what about you? What have been either one of your favorite episodes or just something that’s been really surprising about this? Yeah.

0:03:32 – (Melissa Kruger): You know, what I can say that’s been surprising to me is that I’m actually learning in real time. I know that you may think we get on this and we have everything ready that we’re going to say and Courtney might, but I do not. I think as we discuss these topics, what’s been really sweet to me is the spiritual growth that’s done in my own life. Like one of the episodes in particular, I just remember we were having the gossip conversation.

0:04:03 – (Melissa Kruger): Things were clicking in my head, and I was like, ooh, I need to think about this differently. And so I think what I’ve loved about it is it’s. Yeah, it’s been a place where we get to chew through ideas, you know, or. That sounds weird. Chew on ideas and discuss these things as we have thought about them. But really, I’m learning from you, and I’m learning in having the space to have the conversation.

0:04:31 – (Melissa Kruger): Does that make sense? Like, just.

0:04:33 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah, no, definitely. I was. Yeah. Even, like the theology of the body conversation, like, that was learning in real time for me. Things were shifting in my own heart as we were having that conversation. Well, one of our favorite ways to bring listeners into the show is to ask and answer your questions. So that’s exactly what we’re going to do today. Just as a way of celebrating, as a way of saying thank you, as a way of saying, we.

0:04:57 – (Courtney Doctor): We love doing this with you. We’re going to spend some time answering some questions that you have all sent in. But that’s not the only thing, right?

0:05:07 – (Melissa Kruger): Well, yeah, because. Well, one thing I just want to say, our listeners don’t give us light and fluffy little questions. Y’ all like deep dish and you like to ask deep questions. So we brought in some help today to help us celebrate, but also to help answer some of these questions. But we’re going to start with one, and then surprise. People will be dropping in on us along the way. Do you want something first?

0:05:31 – (Courtney Doctor): No.

0:05:31 – (Melissa Kruger): Okay.

0:05:31 – (Courtney Doctor): No, we’ll keep it as to take this. Yeah, I love surprise aspect.

0:05:36 – (Melissa Kruger): Okay, we’ll keep it a surprise. Well, let me ask you this question to begin. This was a good question from a listener out there. How do you keep from measuring spiritual growth by productivity or consistency rather than dependency on Christ?

0:05:51 – (Courtney Doctor): That’s. It’s hard. I find myself, you know, it’s one of those things. It’s like I drift back into measuring it by productivity or consistency, and then it’s like, no, I have to shift my heart back into just reminding myself the truth of the gospel. These things that, like, the work that we’ve been called to do, all of us, it is a privilege and a joy. It is not a marker of our spiritual growth. And so I have to untether my heart from wanting those things that I can almost bring and present to God. Right? Like, look, I’ve had, you know, I’ve spent time in prayer for five consistent days in a row. Or. Or look, I got to, you know, work on writing this, this thought about you out and share it with a friend and, like, presenting them to God. And so when I see myself doing that, it’s like, no, I have to remember, again, the gospel, that these things are a joy and a privilege, but they are not.

0:06:46 – (Courtney Doctor): They are not what constitute my relationship with Father, Son, with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, that is grace and faith and through the Word and the Spirit. So what about you that’s so good?

0:07:00 – (Melissa Kruger): Well, you know, this question took me down a whole rabbit trail in my mind because I was like, how do we measure spiritual growth? You know, I’ve never really thought about it. Like, how do I actually say I’ve grown in something spiritually? And, you know, so I was really thinking about that, and I realized we want to measure it, but I don’t think it’s actually measured. Like, I don’t think there are measurements we take.

0:07:25 – (Melissa Kruger): I think spiritual growth is revealed rather than measured. And so it’s like, oh, and that totally changes how you think about it. You start to realize, okay, this hard situation happened, and maybe the spiritual Growth is. I turn to prayer before turning to five friends to talk about it, you know, and so it’s revealed in us rather than measured by us. And so that’s been a shift, I think, even as I heard that question. I think that shift helps us realize it’s something God shows us he’s done in us rather than we show God we’ve done.

0:08:06 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah. Greater peace in a situation that we shouldn’t have peace. Greater trust in all of those things.

0:08:14 – (Melissa Kruger): That, like, maybe I didn’t lose it and yell at everybody about the dishes all being done.

0:08:19 – (Courtney Doctor): You know, you’re like, oh, right, I.

0:08:20 – (Melissa Kruger): Handled that with patience. And the Lord shows us rather than. Yeah, I did these things. And now I.

0:08:31 – (Courtney Doctor): Over the long haul, you look back and you’re like, oh, sanctification is actually real. Praise God. Like, by his grace.

0:08:39 – (Melissa Kruger): That’s right.

0:08:40 – (Courtney Doctor): Nancy, perfect timing.

0:08:45 – (Melissa Kruger): Our first guest. How are you?

0:08:49 – (Courtney Doctor): We’re good. We’re good. Because you can sing. I kind of want to ask you to sing Happy Birthday to us, but, you know.

0:08:57 – (Nancy Guthrie): No, I only sing spiritual songs.

0:09:00 – (Courtney Doctor): That’s so true. That’s so true. Well, Nancy, thanks for popping on and being a part of our birthday party. We are so happy.

0:09:11 – (Nancy Guthrie): Grateful for what you guys have done and are doing. It’s terrific.

0:09:15 – (Courtney Doctor): Thanks. Well, we love. I always go back to that. One of the first episodes that we released was the one on prayer, and we had. Melissa and I were just talking about the fact that we learn in real time during these conversations, and that was one of those that I just remember thinking, wow, my prayer life is shifting because of this conversation. Conversation. I’m just really grateful for that. We’re also really grateful for your help because, like Melissa already said, our listeners do not hand in light and fluffy questions.

0:09:46 – (Courtney Doctor): So we have brought in res. You know, whenever you get stumped with a question, you just bring in Nancy Guthrie. Like, that’s. You know, I was kind of thinking.

0:09:53 – (Nancy Guthrie): That’S what you were doing.

0:09:55 – (Courtney Doctor): That is exactly what we were doing.

0:09:56 – (Melissa Kruger): We know what we’re doing, Nancy. You know us well.

0:09:59 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah, exactly. Get all this expertise. Well, I want to start with one that came in, and I actually. This is going to be me learning in real time again. How do you. Here’s the question. How do you discern the difference between conviction from the spirit and shame?

0:10:16 – (Nancy Guthrie): Yeah. Well, I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to think this through and to talk about it. You know, shame in our lives, which is very real. But I think it’s the accuser’s work in our life with a Very specific purpose that the accuser, the enemy of our soul, always has the purpose of alienating us from Christ and paralyzing us in our sin. That’s what he wants to do. What is it? First, Peter says that, you know, that he’s like a lion seeking to devour us.

0:11:00 – (Nancy Guthrie): And so I think shame is a way that he devours us. Because doesn’t that fit? I mean, that. That sense of, like, shame eats you up from the inside. The accuser’s voice is. Here’s what he says. He says, you should be ashamed of yourself. And the accuser says, this is who you are, and you can never change. So there’s the voice of shame in our lives, but the voice of the Spirit in our lives is the one that brings conviction. And he also has a purpose.

0:11:40 – (Nancy Guthrie): His purpose is to bring us to confession and to welcome us into the healing that only he can do. So whereas the. The voice of the enemy in our lives says, you should be ashamed, the voice of Christ in our lives, speaking to us by his Spirit, says, I love you too much to let you linger in this sin. That’s only going to destroy you. And so I want you to see it, and I want you to humble yourself and confess it. And then you know what I’m gonna do? I’m gonna cleanse you.

0:12:28 – (Nancy Guthrie): And so that’s what the voice of Christ is. And the voice of the Spirit says, I can provide you with supernatural power to change so this doesn’t have to continue dominating your life. And the voice of the Father says to us, because you are joined to Christ, I want you to know that you are always welcome to come to my throne. And my throne is a throne of grace. And I give grace and the help needed when you need it.

0:12:58 – (Melissa Kruger): Nancy, that’s so good. I. When you were talking about that paralyzing nature of shame, I had this. Yeah, I was thinking, oh, like a snake bite you? And then what? You know, how is Satan referred to so often? The serpent of old. And it’s like his words trap us. You know, steal, kill, and destroy. That’s what he’s seeking to do to us and put us in jail. Whereas I think of Romans, where it’s like, there’s no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. It’s this freedom.

0:13:31 – (Melissa Kruger): Freedom from the past sin, but also a freedom to live a life of righteousness. So shame is always going to entrap. You can’t do anything other than this. Okay, so the next one. This one’s really tough. How do you seek advice about relationships or conflicts without it being gossip.

0:13:52 – (Courtney Doctor): Like when I need to come to you about a problem with Melissa, how can I talk to you about it without gossiping about her?

0:14:02 – (Nancy Guthrie): Goodness?

0:14:02 – (Jen Wilkin): Exactly.

0:14:04 – (Nancy Guthrie): All right. Well, I think the first thing is that you’re very selective about that person that you might want to talk to about it. And so. And I think the reality is, for most of us, we kind of look for that person that’s going to, like, dive in with and going, oh, my, she is such a jerk.

0:14:25 – (C): Yes, right.

0:14:28 – (Nancy Guthrie): Our flesh. That’s what our flesh wants. Our flesh wants someone who’s going to go, I can’t believe she said that. I can’t believe she did that. And just kind of feeds our sense of I am the wrong to party and, you know, so. And so has done wrong by me. And so what we really need is to look for that person who. Who’s going to be straightforward with us about our own part, our own ownership of this issue.

0:14:57 – (Melissa Kruger): Let’s gossip about her right now.

0:14:59 – (Jen Wilkin): What’s that?

0:15:00 – (Nancy Guthrie): Honestly? Yeah, I mean, it’s right. I mean, so we’re looking for someone who’s godly enough to go, yes, but maybe that wasn’t what she was going for. And yes, but maybe there’s this thing about you, you know, maybe it had to do with the way you asked or the person who’s godly enough to say, yeah, but maybe you’re jumping to some conclusions about what her motive was, or maybe you’re ignoring some realities about what she’s dealing with and what would have prompted her to respond that way or to do that. And so.

0:15:42 – (Nancy Guthrie): So it’s. Honestly, you know, it’s not a huge number of people in my life. I mean, I am blessed with so many godly friends. But if we’re going to choose the person to talk through about this conflict, we really do want to choose someone who is spiritually mature enough to recognize that there are always two sides to the story and is maybe going to force us to look at the other side. And also someone who’s godly enough that has the integrity that she’s going to keep it confidential, that it really isn’t going to keep going on.

0:16:16 – (Nancy Guthrie): But even before we. Maybe you’ve got that person. But even before you go, I think we do have to examine our motive. And honestly, a lot of times I don’t want to. What I really want to do is vent. And what I really want to do is to justify myself.

0:16:37 – (Courtney Doctor): Well, I liked it when you were talking about that whole. Didn’t like it, but it resonated that whole idea. Like we try to build teams, right? We try to get everybody on our. Like, I’m going to tell you the story so that you hear it from my side and you know, I build like my team of support. But also as you were talking, I thought I want to grow, grow in my ability to be the type of friend you’re describing so that when my friends come to me that I am that person who doesn’t just agree with everything and really even grow and promote just the bitterness and arrogance and all of the things you mentioned in their own heart, but actually comes alongside and says, let’s look at this in an open handed way.

0:17:20 – (Nancy Guthrie): Let’s try to assume the best. Someone else together.

0:17:26 – (Courtney Doctor): Together. Yeah, I, I thought that was really. Yeah. Really helpful and convicting and I want to be that person. Okay, another question for you, Nancy. Somebody sent in what are some godly ways to bless and support my husband who doesn’t express affection the way I would like? And you know, we had an entire episode where Melissa interviewed Ann Wilson on when you want to change your husband. So we’d refer people back to that too. But what, what would you say?

0:17:58 – (Nancy Guthrie): It’s a tough one, isn’t it? Because we are so hungry for affection and we can be so demanding that it’s delivered to us in the form in which we want it. So I, I think a couple of thoughts. First of all, I think we have to be ready to give generous affirmation when our husbands do something the way we do enjoy it and the way we hoped it would come to us. And so, and to not even couch it with any criticism, but just to say, oh, I love it when you do that. I love it when you say that. I mean, you know, so for me, like, you know, I’ll be standing in the kitchen and, and David will come and he’ll get behind me and put his arms around me. And I want to say, I love it when you do that.

0:18:53 – (Nancy Guthrie): And I think that helps us not only for him to continue to do that one thing. I think that gives our husbands a taste of. Boy, it feels good to have given my wife some joy and some pleasure. And so I think that makes him want to do some other things maybe that we’re really hoping he will do.

0:19:19 – (Courtney Doctor): That’s so true and so fun. We have another guest on here.

0:19:23 – (Jen Wilkin): Who is it?

0:19:25 – (Courtney Doctor): Can you not see her?

0:19:26 – (Nancy Guthrie): Yes, I can. Oh, I can.

0:19:30 – (Melissa Kruger): We were just.

0:19:30 – (Courtney Doctor): Everybody probably knows just from the laugh, you know, but we weren’t exactly.

0:19:34 – (Melissa Kruger): We weren’t gossiping about Jen, were we?

0:19:39 – (Courtney Doctor): We were not. Nancy wouldn’t let us.

0:19:41 – (C): Only nice things.

0:19:42 – (Melissa Kruger): Nancy got the gossip question.

0:19:44 – (Nancy Guthrie): Jen, how is it there in where you are?

0:19:46 – (C): It’s good. Jeff is bathing all three grandchildren right now. I can hear them. I don’t know if you’ll be able to hear them. It sounds like a herd of cattle.

0:19:54 – (Nancy Guthrie): Yeah. We were just talking about how to show affection. I mean, that’s a serious way to show affection, right? A worthwhile thing. Yeah.

0:20:02 – (C): I was waiting to hop on here, and I texted him. I go, I’m not on yet. And he goes, I was stalling up here waiting for you to come help me give them baths.

0:20:09 – (Courtney Doctor): I was like, that’s so funny. Tell him. Tell them. The deep dish did not run on that time. You’re like, on that time frame today.

0:20:16 – (Melissa Kruger): You had a birthday party to get into.

0:20:18 – (Nancy Guthrie): I mean, I have to go away.

0:20:20 – (Courtney Doctor): Oh, no, you can. You can sit. The more the merrier the party. No, we have. We have yet another special guest that’s going to join us in a minute.

0:20:31 – (Nancy Guthrie): I’m gonna let you give Jen your full attention. But, Jen, I’m very happy to see you if.

0:20:36 – (C): I’m happy to see you, too.

0:20:38 – (Courtney Doctor): I know y’ all are the best. Thanks, Nancy.

0:20:42 – (Nancy Guthrie): All right, I’ll see you guys later.

0:20:44 – (Courtney Doctor): Okay. Thanks, friend.

0:20:45 – (Nancy Guthrie): Bye.

0:20:46 – (Courtney Doctor): Bye. Well, Jen, thanks for popping into our birthday party.

0:20:51 – (Jen Wilkin): We’re.

0:20:52 – (Courtney Doctor): We’re pretty excited about this.

0:20:53 – (C): Oh, my gosh. Happy birthday, guys.

0:20:55 – (Courtney Doctor): Thanks. Thanks. So what we’re doing is we got this slew of questions from listeners, and so we’re bringing in our friends to answer them because we think you guys will do a better job.

0:21:06 – (Nancy Guthrie): So.

0:21:06 – (Courtney Doctor): So we’re gonna. We saved all the hard ones for you and Nancy and for our third guest, who’s still a surprise. I know, but thanks for being such an integral part of the deep dish this year. You were in our kickoff episodes, some of the episodes you did on aging. That continues to be one that people have really. It’s really resonated and helped. And so thanks for just being a part of this with us. Now what we need to do is get deep dish pizza next time we’re all together for sure.

0:21:36 – (Courtney Doctor): Okay, so here’s one that we want to ask you for. Sure. When a passage of scripture is confusing, how long do you sit with the tension before. Or the dissonance, as you would say before, seeking outside resources or answers?

0:21:50 – (C): Yeah. Oh, it’s. Obviously, it’s going to depend on what kind of question you’re dealing with. Like, what genre are you in? Some of the genres are easier to understand than others. But I would say that the general idea you want to think about is move slowly toward consulting commentaries. So the first thing I would do if something is confusing is I would read it in several different translations and see if that helps clear it up.

0:22:14 – (C): And then the second thing I would do is I would ask, wait a minute, has this been talked about before in the book that I’m reading? Does it show up afterwards in the book that I’m reading? So look at the immediate context and then ask, you know, wait a minute, does this show up somewhere in the surrounding books? Does it show up in the Old Testament and somewhere else? Those kinds of things. And so pay a lot of attention to just what does the Bible have to say to help me interpret this before you go to a commentary? Because that’s what a commentator is going to do. And then when you get to a commentary, you’ll have a better sense of whether you are making progress in your own ability to let the context that’s already there help you sort through what something might mean. And also, always keeping in mind those, those first few diagnostic questions that we start with with any book of the Bible, the who, what, when, where, and why, that kind of a thing.

0:23:05 – (Melissa Kruger): That’s, that’s good because I. What I like about that is I actually like it when I have to have that time where I think. And then if you go to the commentary and they say what you were thinking, you’re like, great, I’m not a heretic. Or you’re like, oh, my thought was original. Maybe I am a heretic. Like, I need to go back and think through things. So, you know, it’s always. It’s helpful. It’s a helpful check because we do believe in a historical church.

0:23:32 – (Melissa Kruger): You know, we do, you know, in a sense, want to learn collectively from the Word and from each other. But that’s a, that’s a really helpful, helpful way to think through how to do it, to actually know what we’re thinking before we go in. Well, here’s another easy one for you. I have been trying to answer this question for probably 25 years because that’s how old Emma is. So I’ve been trying to answer in my own head for a long time.

0:23:58 – (Melissa Kruger): How can parents with young children take a second Sabbath day? Tell us.

0:24:07 – (C): This is so timely because actually, you know, Jeff and I are here with these small children, and I’m thinking, do we get to go to bed at any point? You forget pretty quickly just how much energy goes into taking care of little children. So, anyway, just for those who are going to hear my response, just know that I’m actually living the dream with you right now in this very moment as we’re doing this interview.

0:24:28 – (C): And so I think that when we think about Sabbath, first of all, in some of the same way that I answered the previous question, do you have a heart turned toward Sabbath? In other words, does it just feel like, oh, I’m just too busy, or is it, no, I really want to be able to Sabbath as a family. And keeping in mind that Sabbath is not just taking a nap, right. Sabbath is an opportunity to experience the goodness, the cessation of typical daily activities for the purpose of ones that are perhaps more focused on relationship building and tend toward worship.

0:25:10 – (C): And so I tend to think of it more like, even when I had small children, if I had a house guest coming to stay, I prepared ahead for that house guest because I wanted to be able to give them my full attention and so much as I had full attention to give with small children when they were actually there. So I thought ahead about how can I make sure that meals are going to take little, as little effort as possible when the person is here, but they’re still going to be delicious and an enjoyable time together?

0:25:36 – (C): How do I think about activities that we can do with this person that will be enjoyable, that aren’t going to require so much effort that we can’t actually all enter in, or if I’m going to be distracted during all that? And so I think thinking about Sabbath is, is a similar practice. We’re, we’re in, in a sense, inviting the Lord as our table guest on that day. And then that means that we are going to do some work before Sabbath, so that work on the Sabbath. And so that’s. And that’s an Old Testament principle. They collected more manna the day before the seventh day so that they wouldn’t have to go out and collect on that day.

0:26:12 – (C): But on top of all of this, what I want young parents to hear me say is just do what you can, set your heart on the right principle, and then over time, watch how it becomes more and more a regular rhythm as your children get older. The Lord, I always say this with quiet time practices, with Bible study practices. The Lord knows your stage of life better than you do, and he knows your heart. So honor him in your heart and as far as you’re able, in your practices, so that you have a trajectory, even if you don’t have an immediate, you know, hey, everyone, I’m going to Instagram the Sabbath.

0:26:50 – (Courtney Doctor): That was so amazing with Sourdough. For sure. Doctor Vanessa K. Hawkins is in the house. It’s not really a party until Vanessa shows up. You know that, right?

0:27:08 – (Melissa Kruger): This was the 4.4person sitting on the pillows. We were all on the pillows together. Do y’ all remember?

0:27:16 – (Courtney Doctor): Yes. That ended up. So what Melissa’s talking about is when we first started recording the Deep Dish, we all were in Dallas together at an Airbnb, and we. The chair weren’t tall enough, so we put pillows on the chairs, but then it showed up in all the photos, and so it’s, like, very obvious. So I just want to reiterate what I have said a thousand times. We are professionals.

0:27:39 – (Melissa Kruger): We are bringing it.

0:27:42 – (Courtney Doctor): We are top notch. We really know what we’re doing here.

0:27:45 – (Jen Wilkin): Absolutely.

0:27:46 – (Courtney Doctor): I’m actually in my slippers right now, but y’ all probably didn’t need to know that. Okay, well, Jen, I know you got.

0:27:54 – (C): To go be with those babies.

0:27:55 – (Courtney Doctor): Thanks for hopping on. It wouldn’t have been a birthday party if you hadn’t. If you hadn’t. So thanks for taking the time to do that.

0:28:02 – (C): Thanks, guys, and happy first birthday. I hope you grow into a teenager.

0:28:07 – (Courtney Doctor): Thanks, friend.

0:28:08 – (Melissa Kruger): Bye, Vanessa, we’re so glad you’re here.

0:28:12 – (Jen Wilkin): It’s good to be here. Always good to see you guys. Yes.

0:28:15 – (Courtney Doctor): What we are doing to celebrate our birthday is we asked listeners to toss some questions out there to us, but instead of us answering them, we’re just bringing in all of the experts and friends to answer some of these questions. Well, we would love to toss some of the hard ones your way because. And like Melissa said at the beginning, our listeners do not offer fluffy questions. I mean, these are good and they are deep, and.

0:28:41 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah. So I’m going to toss the first one over to you. So this was a question that a listener submitted. How do you allow disappointment to deepen your dependence? And can we just, like, stop and reflect on that beautiful alliteration? How do you allow disappointment to deepen your dependence on God rather than. And here it is again. Harden your heart. So I’m just impressed with the semantics of the question.

0:29:04 – (Jen Wilkin): But this is clearly a reformed person. Is this clearly right?

0:29:07 – (Courtney Doctor): Exactly. But I mean, what a great question, Right? Disappointment can just.

0:29:12 – (Nancy Guthrie): Is.

0:29:13 – (Jen Wilkin): It was a great question for you guys, and now you’ve got me on here. Yeah. How. How do you let disappointment deepen your dependence? Yeah, it is a. It’s a. It is a great question. Yeah. I think with disappointment, I think over time Becoming convinced that in disappointment that the Lord really doesn’t withhold anything good from me, I. I think that over. Over time, I’ve become convinced of that truth and that to be, and to be able to sit with the disappointment and to know that he’s not a.

0:29:48 – (Jen Wilkin): A God that just arbitrarily allows things in my life or withholds things from my life, but if it’s something that I’m longing for and I’m not getting in this moment or something that I was planning to do and I’m not getting to do at this moment and it doesn’t happen, I have become more apt to now go back to the Lord and say, well, you know, I really thought that that was going to happen, or to be able to voice that, but to also receive from him that if you’re not allowing it right now in this moment, or if it’s not looking the way that I thought it should look, that you’re really not withholding good from me and that the good that you have for me is better than what I thought I needed in this moment.

0:30:33 – (Jen Wilkin): And so I think it’s. It’s a matter of trust over time, as you kind of do in any relationship. Right. You build trust over time. And I think it’s trusting that the things that I have been disappointed. Disappointed about, you know, over time, I can say in many of those cases that, wow, you really weren’t withholding what was good from me. You.

0:30:52 – (Nancy Guthrie): You.

0:30:52 – (Jen Wilkin): I can really trust you in that.

0:30:54 – (Melissa Kruger): So that’s so good. That’s such, like a. Wow. It’s such a maturing process. Right. That doesn’t happen easily.

0:31:03 – (Jen Wilkin): You’re right. Yes.

0:31:04 – (Melissa Kruger): You know, and I think we get there. The longer we walk with the Lord, we maybe get there sooner. Hopefully. Hopefully some days sometimes, yeah.

0:31:14 – (Jen Wilkin): And sometimes it depends on the disappointment, too. Melissa.

0:31:16 – (Nancy Guthrie): Right.

0:31:17 – (Jen Wilkin): Because. And what the, what the disappointment is concerning, there are certain things I get there quicker with, with my children, sometimes maybe not. You know, it just. It. It depends. It kind of depends. But it is a maturation process.

0:31:30 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah.

0:31:30 – (Melissa Kruger): I’ve started speaking that to myself when I’m feeling the why is it going this way?

0:31:36 – (Courtney Doctor): Or whatever.

0:31:38 – (Melissa Kruger): The truth I try to say is it has to be for my good.

0:31:45 – (Courtney Doctor): It’s.

0:31:46 – (Melissa Kruger): It’s somehow, I mean, it ha. Like, he’s going to work this for my good. He has promised he will. But, like, and now is the moment for me to try to believe that, like, he, you know, to let that settle me in it, but still feel the disappointment, feel the sadness. Feel the hardness. I don’t feel like I have to.

0:32:02 – (Jen Wilkin): Feel that and take that on too.

0:32:04 – (Melissa Kruger): Yeah, yeah. And then yet at the same moment, be like, but he has promised in every single thing.

0:32:12 – (Courtney Doctor): And what would it.

0:32:13 – (Melissa Kruger): How would it change this moment if I actually believed it in this moment? And that sometimes it’s. But it’s a battle. I mean, like, it’s a fight for our minds to, you know, turn and talk to ourselves. Because it’s just so much easier to be like. Like, well, there is no way I cannot see away as if I can see everything, which I cannot. So, anyway, it’s always that. Okay, well, that. Thank you for that first one. Taking. Taking that one on.

0:32:42 – (Jen Wilkin): So that’s easier now, right?

0:32:44 – (Melissa Kruger): They’re gonna get super easy. Oh, this was super easy.

0:32:48 – (C): No problem.

0:32:50 – (Melissa Kruger): So how does loving someone well. What does loving someone well look like when you feel misunderstood by them or not seen by them? So how do we love? Well, that’s easy, right? I’m sure it just overflows. It’s so simple to do. How do we do that? How do we do that?

0:33:08 – (Jen Wilkin): Well, you just went from hard to harder, Melissa. Okay, so when you’re feeling misunderstood or unseen, that’s the question, right? I think with misunderstanding, as a person who communicates a lot, I long to communicate well. And I think if I think that someone didn’t understand what I said or what my intentions were, I think I’m apt to just ask good questions and to keep listening so that I can understand how what I said landed or, you know, and so. And I might even ask. Ask, you know, how did what I say land on you? Can you help me to hear it the way that you heard it?

0:33:55 – (Jen Wilkin): And so I think that sometimes that is it. And then longing to hear more than I long to be understood, too. I mean, so if I’m communicating, I’m longing to be understood, but also I’m longing to understand, and I’m wanting to know how my words are landing. So. So that. So if I. If I think that there’s a point of misunderstanding, I’m probably just going to be prone to ask good questions until I get some clarity about what it is that I said and maybe a way that I can say it differently so that it can land.

0:34:27 – (Jen Wilkin): I think that that’s the thing. And misunderstanding and in not being seen, man, I think that that has probably changed over the years. There’s sometimes now I don’t want to be seen. So it’s sad. That’s true. But I think it’s asking Some heart questions about, well, one, why does it bother me that I wasn’t acknowledged or seen? Is there something in me or is there something systematically happening that maybe am I being not seen or am I being ignored?

0:34:59 – (Jen Wilkin): So I think one implies intent and the other is it could be how I’m perceiving it. So I think asking myself some of those hard questions about, all right, am I not being seen or what is it in me that’s saying, you’re not seeing me? And so I think maybe probing my own heart a bit. And then if it’s, if I’m being ignored, if I’m, if I’m picking up on kind of maybe some repeat behavior that I’m kind of being ignored, I think that that’s different.

0:35:28 – (Jen Wilkin): I think that that’s, you know, that’s a conversation that’s, hey, let’s, let’s chat about this. This is making me feel this way and giving people all kinds of grace and saying, hey, I know you didn’t, you know, likely mean it this way, but this is how I’m experiencing you and having those kinds of conversations if necessary.

0:35:47 – (Courtney Doctor): That’s so good. Yeah. And just like, we want to say thank you to our listeners for trusting us with these really hard questions. And it’s just, we are just rejoicing in, like, God’s faithfulness to us through these conversations and just the kindness and encouragement that we’ve received over the past year in the ways the Lord is using these conversations in your life. And then obviously, our hearts are rejoicing over our friends and partners in ministry that we get to.

0:36:20 – (Courtney Doctor): To do this with. And so, Vanessa, thanks for hopping on, for celebrating with us, for joining us once again, for just offering your wisdom to the listeners. I know that it’s always a treat for me and for them. And so we’re just really grateful. But so we, we do love to end every episode with a question that’s just a little bit lighter.

0:36:42 – (Jen Wilkin): Oh, okay. I mean, it has to be almost right.

0:36:46 – (Courtney Doctor): Here’s my question for you today. And, Vanessa, because I’m the one asking it, and I’m asking you, there is actually a right answer to this.

0:36:53 – (Melissa Kruger): Oh, no. I’m sorry, Vanessa. I didn’t know she was going to do this to you. Vanessa, take me out. You know, I’m on your.

0:37:01 – (Courtney Doctor): Vanessa, come on. I’m sending you. I’m sending you all the brain waves on this one. Okay, here’s the question.

0:37:08 – (Jen Wilkin): This is scary.

0:37:09 – (Courtney Doctor): What is the best party you’ve ever been to?

0:37:15 – (Jen Wilkin): The best party. I mean, it has to be a Courtney doctor party.

0:37:19 – (Courtney Doctor): Well, right. Yes.

0:37:21 – (Jen Wilkin): Right.

0:37:21 – (Courtney Doctor): For sure.

0:37:22 – (Jen Wilkin): Yeah. Probably the 50th. Seriously? You got it, girl.

0:37:26 – (Nancy Guthrie): Yeah.

0:37:26 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:37:28 – (Melissa Kruger): I was not invited to Courtney’s 50th.

0:37:30 – (Courtney Doctor): You were actually. And I was, you know, too busy. Just kidding.

0:37:36 – (Jen Wilkin): But no.

0:37:36 – (Courtney Doctor): Okay, you can answer it. For real. What is actually the best party you’ve ever been to?

0:37:40 – (Jen Wilkin): No, that. That. That’s. Sincerely. Would be one of the top, because that was just lovely. It was beautiful. It was restorative. It was connecting. It was like, all of my favorite things.

0:37:52 – (Courtney Doctor): It was so fun. We had a group, a small group of women go together to a lake house, and it was in November, but I made everybody get on the lake anyway because I’m, like, you know, obsessed with the water, and so everybody’s all bundled up and. Yeah, it was. It was very fun. But a good party is all those things. It’s relational, restorative. I like how you. I like how you said that. So the next one of us that has a big birthday, let’s do. Let’s do one of those parties.

0:38:18 – (Melissa Kruger): Dish party party number two should be at the lake. And we can get some chairs that don’t require pillows for us to sit on.

0:38:27 – (Courtney Doctor): We could sit down and Adirondacks and have.

0:38:29 – (Jen Wilkin): Yeah.

0:38:30 – (Courtney Doctor): Because there’s a lot of questions that were submitted that we did not get to, and so we could sit around and Addirondex and. Yeah, we are sorry. We love. We love. We’re reading them all and we’re thinking about them, and we’re super impressed with. With you all and your questions, but these are the ones that made the cut. So I hope that this episode has served you well, that you have enjoyed it, that you have celebrated with us, that you received this as a gift of gratitude for joining us in this first year.

0:38:58 – (Courtney Doctor): We’ll see what year two looks like. We are excited. We’ve already started thinking about it and talking about it. So thank you. Thank you for being a part of the Deep Dish community. And if you have found this conversation or this podcast helpful, would you please, please, like, subscribe, Leave a review, Leave a comment, Share with a friend and we would like to continue and then support TGC because we would like to continue making more content like this.

0:39:24 – (Courtney Doctor): So happy birthday to all of us, and thanks for being a part of the Deep Dish community.