How to Be a Missional and Confessional Church That Motivates People for Faithful Ministry

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Jim Davis
Welcome to as in Heaven season three. My name is Jim Davis. I’m your host and pastor of Orlando Grace Church, and I’m joined by my co host and dear friend, Michael Aitchison, who serves as the lead pastor and planter of Christ United fellowship here in Orlando. And today we have the privilege of being joined by Dr. Erwin ince. Erwin serves as the coordinator of mission to North America with the PCA and serves as an adjunct professor of pastoral theology for reformed Theological Seminary, and he resides in our nation’s capital, Washington, DC. And if you visit DC and drop in on a CrossFit class, you may well find Erwin to be your coach. Fun fact or when you you’ve been on our podcast now more than anyone else we had you on twice last season, once by yourself. And then we did that live episode with you and Tim Keller at the TGC national conference. I think about Saturday live where I think you get like a special coat if you host a certain number of times. And Mike, Mike, and I feel like we should have a special coat here for Erwin,

Mike Aitcheson
Jim. I agree 100%. In fact, I think we should name it the Insta coat, wait for it, the Insta coat, or the as it is in heaven award? How about doubt you have been such an encouragement from near and far to so many of us. And I can say that personally, and also to our church. And you’ve been a blessing to us through your preaching, and your writings. And we’re just so grateful to have you on here with us once again. And I just want to add Doc is just a really cool, dude. I mean, if you get a chance to hang out with him, you will notice that he has what I like to call sanctified swag.

Irwyn Ince
Oh, Lord, sanctified flag. If you go have swag, that’s a swag to have the sanctifies. Right.

Jim Davis
Well, and you’ve also we are living in the RTS, Orlando community, you’ve been such a blessing. And Mike and I both have a number of RTS students here, who consistently tell us how blessed they are by the classes that you teach there and the ways that you invest and preaching in churches around Orlando. So we we really appreciate that too. Thank you. Well, as we look at this new era, that we’re living in that that we’re calling the great D churching. You know, through the course of this podcast, I think we’ve identified the problem effectively. But often, that’s the easier thing to do the way forward in many of these, these issues can be much harder than just identifying the issue. And that’s what we feel like you’re especially equipped to do so we want to talk about the need to be biblically faithful, if we are going to be biblically fruitful and the way we’ve been phrasing this as being both missional and confessional instead of feeling like we need to choose one over the other. So my first question is if we define being confessional as being clear about what we believe or what it is, we confess, and if we define being missional as engaging the context, we’re in the way that Jesus wants us to, then how do you observe churches embracing one of those at the expense of the other maybe leaning into the doctrine at the expense of the mission? Or leaning into what they would call the mission without building the proper doctrinal Foundation? And what problems does that create?

Irwyn Ince
Yeah, well, this is that it’s an important question. Because to to separate or to look at being confessional and being missional as substance substantively different. It is a false dichotomy. They are one in the same if I’m, if I am. If I’m confessional, then I must be missional. And if we’re talking about being biblical, right, if, if I am if I missional, what’s driving that mission is it is my ultimate confession of who Christ is right at the point. Right, we get to join in God’s mission. It’s not ours is God’s mission for His purpose, that when we confess Christ as Lord, we get joined in on that mission, but as a father sent me Jesus says, The Gospel of John so so I send you, right and so and so we, the we can find churches making this false dichotomy in this way. In one Since people can have the notion that the most important thing that we do, as a church is declare what we believe that, that at the at the top of the mountain of priorities is to say that we believe the scriptures to be the word of God that we believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, and yes and amen. And thinking that that actually is just enough. But, but it’s it’s not enough in the sense that, who are we declaring it to? We just declared it to each other. Yes, discipleship, right, we need to, we need to hear the word again. And again, we never grow out of that. And so when you have a false dichotomy between confession and admission, then you can think that as long as we are saying the right words to each other, we are being faithful. And and that the message of the gospel, the proclamation of the good news, never goes beyond our community beyond our walls. We don’t, we don’t actually get involved in the mess of missional ministry. As you know, ministry is messy. Right. And on the other side of the spectrum, when we might say, people are our prioritize, mission, mission and being missional. And here’s what I mean by that, the outward activity, that the being present in the cultural milieu, the right, the engaging the issues of the day. We we don’t do well, if we neglect the fact that the point of being missional, is to point to Jesus, as the Lord. The point of the mission is to point to him as the solution. The point of engaging issues of justice and righteousness in the public square, is to say that Jesus Christ is the one whose throne is founded on justice and righteousness. That’s why it matters. And so and so this false dichotomy. On the one hand, let me just wrap it this way. One of my favorite people in theologians, professors, Dr. John frame, whom you all know, well, and I learned this from him when I was a seminary student than RTS and he his definition for theology, right? He says, theology is the application of the Word of God by people to every facet or aspect of life. That, that there’s a doing to theology. It’s not just a thinking and a believing to theology. There’s an acting, right. And so we and then what happens is, this is the last thing I’ll say, we pit ourselves against each other in the church. Right? We make accusations that Oh, those are the missional people who don’t care about doctrine, and theology who are wishy washy who are on a slippery slope, or they will say, Well, those are, you know, the doctrinal lists people, those that are confessional people who don’t care about loving neighbors. Right. And we make caricatures actually, of one another, that, that do damage actually to the witness of the church. So I’ll stop there. We could go on, but I’ll stop there.

Mike Aitcheson
Well, Doc, I appreciate how you’re calling us to break this false dichotomy and to see the synthesis there. And if I could, I want to lean into both ends of the spectrum and ask you to elaborate on a little bit more on what it means to be doctrinally faithful, for example. It’s not just enough to be non heretical. We need to lean into that Being extremely biblical, or it’s not just enough to be a non racist, but we need to be deeply devoted to biblical ethics. Can you lean into both of those categories? For us? In that regard?

Irwyn Ince
Yeah, that’s right. Again, it comes down to this fundamental question, and this is why this is why the language of mission is so important. The language of mission is so important. Because again, it’s not us. It’s not our mission, it is not the mission. We, you know, we, every church, right comes, here’s our mission statement. Yeah, I got it right here. So I’m not I’m not saying we don’t make mission statements, saying we don’t know, you know, there’s no call in Scripture, or, for us to come up with a mission statement for our church or for our ministry, right. That’s not a biblical mandate or requirement, but it is helpful, right, in a common grace sort of way, right. And so, so, we can do it, but but we have to understand that that that mission is an active word, it is it is, it is about how we are living. And so, so for example, to use your, your, your point is not enough to to be okay. Let me non heretical. Let me let me go to my confession. Okay. Right, the Westminster Confession of Faith, right, with this larger and shorter catechisms. The Westminster divines in the 1640s rightly did this when they were writing the larger catechism Questions and Answers about the 10 commandments. And they said they did it right. And they said, right, in the commandments, were a sin is forbidden, the opposite duty is required. The hate, right, and where a duty is required, the opposite sin is forbidden. And so when the commandment says, You shall not murder, the questions or not simply, Oh, I did not take the life of anyone, unjustly or I did not. I did not murder someone in my heart, or in my thoughts. That confession, right, they understand that the missional call is that we are promoters of life, that we that we we obey the commandment by being pro life, pro all of life. And that is activity. That’s not just by word, but it’s by what we do. Right. And so and so this is rooted. So, right. There’s your connection between being confessional and being missional.

Jim Davis
Yeah, the the confession itself is a missional document. And so, you know, in my context, Orlando Grace Church, we have the second London confession. So they took all the brilliance of the Westminster and just made it a little more biblically faithful. messin with you. All right. So we, we had a class where we walked through the second London confession, and we talked about how it is a missional document. And so you know, our cards on the table, we have been a church that is that is more on the confessional side, wanting to build the mission out. But then I have friends who are pastors Good, well, meaning godly people. But they would be more on the other side and say, Yeah, well, we’re not going to address certain issues in church, we’re not going to teach certain doctrines because it could push people away and hinder the mission. What would you say to that person that pastor?

Irwyn Ince
So I’d say a few things. On the one hand, I understand. I understand this wrestling with the doctrine of the spirituality of the church, because that’s, that’s really where this conversation has its kind of roots and origins in terms of the the church is that the app that was given to the church, are matters of the Spirit are right that the church is not involved in civic affairs, so to speak right now. I think there’s a is an unhelpful, Grant and unhelpful grant perspective on the spiritual spirituality of the church that says that the church doesn’t ever say anything about matters in the civic arena, are matters that relate to government affairs, and that’s not what it means. It means right we’re we don’t don’t try to run the government. Right? We don’t try to run our local politics. Right? That’s, that’s not our that’s not our calling. But we are always we are always the voice of Christ, the prophetic witness for righteousness and justice in the world. So I would say, secondly, then we try to be guests, we want to be winsome, as we engage congregants and others, but we don’t lead from a position of fear. Yeah, of a third is really good. I don’t. In my flesh, in my personality, I’m afraid of offending people. Right? I’m a, I’m more naturally wired is less confrontational?

Jim Davis
Well, I can appreciate that I joke around here. My, my, the way God has made me well, and I wouldn’t even say, in my flesh, especially I’m really a small town mayor. I just want everybody to get along. That’s what I want. I learned the hard way and 2020 and 2021, that you can’t lead that way. But that’s that’s how I want to operate. That’s right.

Irwyn Ince
That’s right. And so and so what I’m from a, from a filled with the Spirit vantage point. What I want to prioritize is not so much concerned that people get offended. But that the point of offense is God’s word and its implications for how we live, not just my opinion. Right? And so the gospel offense, worded right, if you can’t live as a Christian and take any, any Christian who says, I can read through the entirety of the Scriptures and never be personally offended by what I read there is not giving you an honest reflection of what they have found in the scriptures. Because the scriptures is always confronting us. God’s words always confronting us, where our fleshly worldly cultural commitments are taking priority over God’s Kingdom priorities and commitments, right. And so, so we, as a pastor, as a leader, I don’t want to be afraid of offending, I want to be concerned not to offend people with my opinion. But Let the word of God do its offense. Do its offending with the Spirit of God, do the offending as, as I and we strive to be faithful to Christ and His word?

Jim Davis
Well, let’s take the I love what you’re saying. And let’s take this down to what we might call the ground level. Because one of the things that you do so well, whether it’s in your seminary classes, or in your book, the beautiful community, is you begin with the important doctrines like the doctrine of God, the trinity doctrine of sin and others, but you don’t stop there, you apply it to the church, but then you don’t stop there, either. You then help us to see how that doctrine should fuel the mission of every church. So could you could you just give me an example of what that looks like? Maybe pick a doctrine help us to see how orthodoxy what we believe should drive the orthopraxy what we practice specifically in our mission to the world.

Irwyn Ince
Yeah. So so we’ll take this at it three, three phases or levels. Right. And, and you might you might not be surprised that I’m going to start with the doctrine of the Trinity. Which, you know, for me,

Jim Davis
I am not and I’m pleased you did.

Irwyn Ince
foundational for so much of our practice, in this language that we get from Jesus, from the scriptures, and from our Lord in the scriptures. What is the greatest commandment, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, while your might? And the second is like unto it, you shall love your neighbor, as yourself when these two right are, are based all the prophets and the law, the doctrine of the Trinity that God is eternally existent in three distinct persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, our Triune God of grace, the one God God It is the very embodiment and epitome of unity in diversity, diversity in unity as my favorite theologian Herman Bhavik says, right in God two, there is unity and diversity, diversity in unity, indeed this order and this harmony is present in him. Absolutely. Right. Right. And this makes for what he says, the most perfect kind of community, a community of the same beings. And it simultaneously makes for the most perfect diversity, a diversity of divine persons. And this theological truth, this foundational truth about who is the God that we worship also answers this question, who are we called to be, because the first thing that the Word of God says about humanity, from God’s mouth is let us make humanity in Our image, according to our likeness. So we were made by God, to image him as unity and diversity, diversity in unity. We are not made to be isolated individuals, right. Bhavik. Again, as you all know, I call it says right, the image of God is much too rich, for it to be fully realized in a single human being, however richly gifted a human being may be, it can only be somewhat unfolded, in its depth and riches in humanity, counting billions of members. He says, Only humanity in its entirety, as one complete organism, summed up under a single head, he’s talking about Jesus Christ spread out over the whole earth, as Prophet proclaiming the truth of God, as priests dedicating itself to God, as ruler controlling the earth in the whole of creation, only it is the fully finished image, the most telling and striking likeness of God. You want to have in your mind’s eye what it means for humanity to be the image of God, you got to have the end of the story in view, you’ve got to have all of redeemed humanity in the new heaven and earth and all of its diversity, as he says, as one complete organism, not a uniform organism, but every tongue and tribe and people in language, right before the throne. Now, that’s fundamental theology doctrine, in its implication for us, that comes down to practice and how then do we live? If this is true, first as God’s redeemed people, how then do we live? This drives so much of what we see in the scriptures, and we can talk about John 17, in Jesus high priestly prayer, about our oneness. But I’m not going to talk about that right now. I’m gonna go to what Paul says to the Colossians. He’s, he’s Colossians chapter three, the apostle is talking to a diverse church. He says to them, in verse 11, of Colossians, three here Colossians in the church, there isn’t Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised barbarian, Skippy, and Slade, three, but Christ is all in and all. He could say that to them, because that’s who’s in the church. You’ve got this. You’ve got this now group of people who would not be together, apart from Jesus Christ, Greek and Jew, barbarians, in SL enslaved people, free people in one body. And now he says, here’s what you do, right? He says, Put on them, since this is true of you, but on then as God’s chosen once you are the elect, you diverse people who are on the end is God’s chosen ones. compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, patience, bearing with one another. If one has a complaint against another, forgiving one another as the Lord has forgiven you, you must also forgive and above all these things, he says, put on love that binds everything together in perfect harmony. Your life he sang together. Why does he have to say put on compassionate hearts? patience, meekness, bearing with one another forgiving each other. Because what what does it look like for these people who, apart from Christ wouldn’t have no relationships? No kind of intimate love? I think communion together. Right? This is an oath outflow of the doctrine of the Trinity. The last thing I’ll say, and then I’ll let you ask another question, it is going back to being confessional, chapter 626, of the Westminster Confession of Faith is of the communion of saints, the obligations that God’s people have. Because we’re united by faith to Jesus Christ, we unite it to one another in love the obligation that we have to one another, it says, we participate in each other’s gifts and graces, and we’re obligated to perform the public and private duties that make for our mutual good inwardly and outwardly, it’s, it’s our duty to come to the aid of one another, both spiritually and materially as, as according to our various abilities. And then it says, as God affords opportunity, this communion, is to be extended to all those in every place, who call him the name of the Lord Jesus. Robert lesson in his book, the Westminster assembly, he’s writing about he says this about this chapter, rightly so that the, the Westminster divines, are basing this on our union with Christ, which which implies and makes where our union with one another. But he says, right, he says that this communion is actually an overflow of the doctrine of the Trinity. There’s union and unity, but in diversity, the Westminster has wisely understood this. And so we have to live this out. And we live it out as witnesses to the world. Because what the world should see in the church is a union and a reconciliation across all kinds of polarizing, fractured dividing lines. You should not be able to say, in the United States of America, when you look at any congregation, that’s a Red Church, that’s a blue church. That church leans more to Republican politics, that church leans more to a Democratic Party that demo, Democrat party politics, that should not be the defining characteristic of any congregation of our Lord, You should actually see the union and unity across political divides in congregations. Alright, I’m gonna stop there.

Mike Aitcheson
Well, we can go ahead and take up the offering. But But we’ve got to get you to lean in a little bit more in the Christological category. Now, since you’ve so eloquently given us the implication, the nature and implications of the Trinity, can you help us understand? What are the implications of the Incarnation? You said, we’re in union with each other, because of Christ. So what does it mean for us, that their Christ clothed themselves in flesh? And what is mundane shores?

Irwyn Ince
Oh, I tell you what. It means everything. In one sense. There is what is actually our hope for this kind of vision in life in this kind of missional life. It is it cannot be that we’ve got the right strategies. We’ve got the right missional strategies for Christian communion, and missional outreach. It is that our Lord clothed himself in human flesh, for the redemption of the world. For he, he came for this redemption. It’s impossible apart from him, since he partook, as the pastor says to the Hebrews, in Hebrews, chapter, two, right, of the same things of flesh and blood, that he might destroy the power of the devil. All right, that he might liberate all those who are subjected, the pastor says, to lifelong slavery to the fear of death. Therefore, right It is fitting, right? That God should make the foundation, the founder of their salvation, perfect through suffering. Therefore, he’s not ashamed to call them brothers. Right? Saying, I will sing of your name to my brothers in the midst of the congregation, I will sing the hymn of praise, to tell of your name to my brothers that we, that Christ clothed himself and has become, therefore our Great High Priest, we do not have a high priest who’s unable to sympathize with our weaknesses. But one who has Hebrews chapter four, right? Who has been tempted in every respect as we have, yet without sin, right? Therefore, let’s draw nearer to the throne of grace with confidence, that we might receive grace to help find mercy in our time of need. This is all rooted in the incarnation of Christ, because he came, because he identified right, we now have confidence. We now have confidence not in ourselves, but in God. Right. But in God who raises the dead? And so and so if we try to manufacture mission, if we try to manufacture communion, across lines of difference, by the sole means of our strategies, they are doomed to fail. What? What will keep us together? What will keep us together? What will keep us from retreating into Christian camps of affinity? From from running away from the hard impossible task? Of I’m not even talking about loving non Christian neighbors who differ from I’m talking about loving believers, who, who differ radically from us in terms of not just culture and ethnicity. But in terms of perspectives on all kinds of issues?

Jim Davis
Well, if what you’re saying, I mean, if, if there have ever been two years to confirm what you’re saying, I mean, it feels like the 2020 2021 those those were those years. And at you know, we’ve I’ve talked with Colin Hansen. You know, some people say that, that the church is polarized because the nation is polarized, but at Colin makes a compelling case, well, actually, the church is failing, so bad in our addressing of these issues, and allowing ourselves to be divided that that’s contributing to the division we see in our country.

Irwyn Ince
Yeah, which way? Is it? Is it? Is it the culture seeping into the church? Or is it the church’s failure to be faithful to the full implications of what it means to be citizens of the kingdom? That is aiding the fracture and polarization in the culture?

Jim Davis
I mean, that’s the question and what the thing that was compelling to me in the argument that he made is if you look at Christian Twitter over the past few years, it was the things that Christians were debating, and often not debating charitably, they were consistent, consistently three to six months ahead of Fox News and CNN. Hmm. Wow. That was that was a compelling argument to me.

Irwyn Ince
So here’s, here’s, you know, I’m not here to ask your questions. But But here’s here’s a question. What is then where do we find the church’s willingness? What’s the root of the church’s willingness to weaponize cultural terms, like wokeness, for for partisan points and gate or to to weaponize for polarization purposes. Secular ideologies or perspective, like critical race theory that were not designed to say anything to the church or about the church. You know, these are questions that we had said, Well, what’s, why are we here? Why are we leading with these things? When when when the pursuit of the issues that relate to justice, the call to the to pursue what is good and right, for image bearers belongs to the church, because of our book, and who we are in Christ. But so anyway, uh, you know,

Jim Davis
it’s an important question. I mean, I’m sure the answer is multifaceted. I don’t assume to have the perfect answer.

Speaker 3
But I do get asked the question because I have the answer. Well, it’s

Jim Davis
but it’s, it’s, uh, I mean, for the listeners to continue to process this question. But I do believe on both sides of the argument. But I’m just I’m just talking to Christians in America here, especially white Christians, I think there is a real fear of loss of influence and power at play. And, you know, when we look at the normative life of God’s people throughout our history, and across the global east and global South, today, the norm has not been for us to exercise our influence from the seat of power. And often, when we have that’s not gone. Well, the norm has been to exercise our influence from the margins. And, and I think that what we’re experiencing is more of a return to what is normative in God’s people going back to Abraham, obviously, Daniel, the Israelites, are brothers and sisters in the East now. And that’s scary. It’s scary if you’re not used to that, and this is where it intersects so well, with missional. And confessional, we have to have a robust understanding of people, being God’s people living in a a type of exile at all times until Jesus comes back for us to walk into this era of the great deep churching. Well, because our goal isn’t necessarily to win the country back. And I think there’s a lot of false understanding, there’s just that phrase in the beginning. But our goal is to build up believers and give a more beautiful picture of of who we are called to be as believers in this time in this place. So I think is an amazing, perfect question to ask. And, and I hope others can build, build on that question.

Irwyn Ince
Yeah, absolutely.

Mike Aitcheson
Right. Yeah, I echo those same sentiments I, I I’m struggling with this one deeply. It it’s, it’s just so clear to me, that we have the arena and the Constitution to work this out. We have the church, and we have the document known as the Bible. And it seems to me that we as a people of God ought to be the most courageous, the most humble, the most willing to lean into these spaces. And even and even to consider these terms that come from, if you will a secular space, even consider how they can be employed. redemptively, right. The old saying goes, a stop clock is right, at least twice a day. And so and I think I think, of course, you would have a better grasp on this. It seems to me that we’re still wrestling with the second commandment. The church in America has long wrestled with the Second Great Commandment. All right, and so we’ve over the years. All right, do we evangelize a certain people a certain portion of the population? Are they even human? All right, well, they’re human. But we still don’t want to give full citizenship. We don’t want to give up something that we’ve gained. And to me that’s rooted in understanding the full implications of the second commandment. It’s, you know, again, biblical fidelity requires biblical ethics. And so I think we’re struggling with it. And I think of Charles marshes book God’s long summer, and you think back to 1950s, how is it possible for such great movements around Jesus people, people hearing the gospel of Jesus preach so clearly articulated so clearly. But still walking out the door disliking, and maybe potentially hating the people that God created? I think there was just a deep emphasis on getting your thoughts, right, and not your actions. And that’s the second commandment. It’s just as long as my soul is okay, doesn’t matter how I treat anyone else. And so I think we’re in an age of reckoning, because the polarization is clear. I mean, those are just things I’m wrestling with. Along the way of that question you asked.

Irwyn Ince
That’s right. That’s absolutely right. That such an important point that this has come nected to confession and, and no one. No one would argue, oh and rightly argue that that, that biblical ethics is interwoven in all of this. And biblical ethics is both confessional and missional. Right? It’s the ethics of what is right. And then what do we do? We do, right? We do. Right? Right, we do. Right. And you’re your point, Michael, about how we can see the shortfall and shortcomings of so many of those who call them the name of the Lord Jesus, in a previous generations, who was still willing to uphold and maintain and promote racialized segregation, racialized hierarchy. Right? How much the the demands, the mandates to maintain a particular way of cultural being influences the church. And for us, we have to ask the question today, where are those things still happening with us? We can act as though oh, you know, well, that was so terrible back then. You know, I could see if I, if I was, you know, alive back then, you know, I would have been, you know, likelihood is, you had a problem in going right along with, you know, the program with everybody. So we got to ask, because there, y’all know, there’s a cost to righteousness and holiness, there’s a cost to, to declaring what thus says the Lord and living it out that God always had witnesses. So it was not like, in in error in bygone eras in the past few centuries in the United States, that every white Christian pastor or leader was a proponent of racial segregation. And racial hierarchies. No, those who spoke out against it, were willing to pay a cost. And they did. Right. But but they, they understood that I live, right, we live quorum, do

we live before the face of God? And so what can man do the me?

Right? That do we have that kind of willingness today, to press against the dead demands in the tide of cultural priorities that, that are more about the kingdom of darkness than the kingdom of light?

Jim Davis
So one of the things I’ve heard you talk about, we’ve we have seminary students in our church who rave about what you say, the multifaceted glory of the essence of God, and how it is meant to be reflected in the church. Can you flush that out a little bit

Irwyn Ince
that I’ve said it already. But it is an implication of the Trinity. And so so we were made for unity and diversity. And we see this in the scriptures. You know, Ephesians, three, all talks about the, the manifold wisdom of God being revealed. All right, in that word manifold is literally the multicolored things done, right, the multifaceted wisdom of God. And it’s not a stretch to say, to say that that has implications for the church because he’s talking to this church about Jew and Gentile being together. And so we have a love is what else to say, Well, I’ll let you move on to the next question. We are called to a supernatural love that it says Listen, these people are not likely to be together a stay together. Apart from the power and witness of the Spirit of Christ. Why would they be together? That’s what you should see. When you look at the church. Why would they be together? It the only reason we can give is Jesus. Yeah, because they don’t fit

Mike Aitcheson
So that’s one of one phrase, you hear come up in the conversation about how the church can and should interact with the world around us as being in the world, but not of the world, which more or less comes from John 17. You’ve, you’ve touched on this at various points. But people on one extreme, have used it to me that they should distance themselves from the culture they live in, because they are not of the world. And then people on the other extreme desire to be more contextually connected, maybe over contextualized, if you will, to the world, we are sending to have acted as excuse me actively become more like the world to minister to it. So can you just help us zero out and understand what Jesus is saying in John 17? And how understanding and embracing those teachings should drive the mission of the church?

Irwyn Ince
Yeah, that’s such an important question. Because if we listen to what Jesus is praying, this is John, this is his high priestly prayer, this is Jesus, right? We were getting clued in, on his heart, in prayer to the Father before his crucifixion. And it’s the key things that he says right? He says, Father, I don’t ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. Right? So so he’s right, they are not of the world, just like I’m not of the world. Alright. But I’m not asking you to take them out of the world. I’m asking you there in the world. So so keep them from the evil one, right? Sanctify them in the truth, he says, for Your word is truth. And then he says, As you sent me into the world, so on Syndic, then so so that’s the key that we’re yes, we’re in it, but not have it. We’re in it. And so we will often if we are faithful to the Lord, we will often look like him. In our missional engagement in the world, we will be accused of being a friend of sinners, we will be accused of being a drunkard. Right? Just like why do you? Why do you eat and drink with sinners? Right? We, if we look like our Lord, we will hear the those accusations from those who say, hey, the way to purity is, is is no interaction with the fallen world. Right? Those are the kinds of acts as musicians we’ll hear. And at the same time, right, we have to, we have to guard our own hearts in prayer. We have to as God’s people, this is the importance. This is the importance of, of being rooted and grounded repeatedly, in the Word of God. This is the importance of faithful Christian community of us hearing the gospel proclaimed of us studying the scriptures, how do we get sanctified? And the truth is it says, are the Sanctify them in the truth, Your word is truth. And so and so it is, again, not a false dichotomy. We are in the world, we were sent. And so it’s going to look very much to those who might not want the church to have anything to do with being in the world, like this compromise, because we come alongside and we engage, right? And at the same time we entrust ourselves to the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit, knowing that we will, there will be a cost to this engagement. The world will want to reject us as we speak the truth in its midst. But we can’t speak the truth in this Miss unless we’re engaged.

Jim Davis
Amen. Well, I mean, you said it so well. Under the with last question under the banner that we’re putting here of D churching. We live in the largest and fastest religious shift in the history of a country, we’ve proven that that’s not being debated. It’s just going the opposite direction than the previous largest religious shifts. And it is our our opinion or conviction that that part of this is a country contributing factor of this is churches, letting go of either confession or mission. That false it’s a false dichotomy, as you said, but But trying to lean more toward one at the expense of the other. So I just want to finish by getting very practical, how how can we? How can we employ what you are saying in the church better? How do we for members and our ministries and worship to do exactly what you’re talking about here now?

Irwyn Ince
Yeah. So great question. And this is how I describe, very often the work that we do admission to North America mission to North America, we serve the Presbyterian Church in America for the cultivation of Kingdom advancement. Right, we serve the church for this purpose, the outward face of the church. And I say what we want to see is our ministry practitioners, engaged the resources of mission to North America, as they want to live out there confessional commitments, engaging the missional opportunities that the current culture is providing. So we want to combine like our we want to live out the implications of our confessional commitments missionally. So we have to ask certain questions. What are the gospel opportunities being provided to us in our cultural context? We can talk Oh, from a 30,000 foot level in terms of North America when this admission to North America. But we have to ask this in our local context. What are the gospel opportunities here in this place, that the Lord would have us engaging, as we follow Him faithfully into this context? There’s a there’s one example there’s a new study that Barner has released late last year, early 2023. On a study of global teams, this study is a combination of Christian and non Christian teenagers between 13 and 17 years old, almost 25,000 teens from 26 different countries around the world, on their views on Jesus, their views on the Bible, in the their views on kind of social action. And Barna titled this, a survey is three volumes. They study the open generation. So now we’re getting into the minds of 13 to 17 year olds, right around the world, right? And so this is those folks, these are the adolescents and teens coming up, right. And they find that they’re drawn to a couple of things we can say a lot of they’re drawn to a merciful and kind hearted Jesus. Right there and appeals to them. And they are very concerned about issues of justice. Now they have limited opportunity to do anything because they’re teenagers, right? But what their concerns are, right, and they are very, they are very less inclined to be drawn to Jesus as King and ruler and authority. Right now, so we we get to ask the question, well, what does that mean? What are the opportunities then, as we seek to, to engage in disciple, the coming generation? How do we help lean into the fact that Jesus is merciful and gracious, that he does love those on the margins that he is concerned about issues of justice, but he’s concerned as the Lord. Right. And so the so my point is always, always having the kinds of eyes to, to ask questions, and depend on the spirit prayerfully to to give us the kind of discernment we need to say, how do we live out our faith in this generation? What are the key concerns of our neighbors that the gospel can answer? And what does it look like for us to be engaging this as Harvey Khan’s book, says, you know, eternal word changing world, I ‘s mission missiological book, The Word is eternal, the world is always changing. So we’ve got to always be seeing how do we bring the Eternal Word to bear in a changing world in our content,

Jim Davis
but that is so well said and You set up perfectly. We only have one episode left that is going to come out after this and it is going to be on church formation. And it’s going to be a live episode at TGC. So I can’t I just can’t think of a better transition into that than everything that you just said. Dr. Ants, man, thank you. It is always good to be with you and hear from you. And I’m just thankful for all you’re doing and all the ways that the Lord is using you.

Irwyn Ince
Likewise, brothers, a delight to be with y’all.

Mike Aitcheson
Thanks, doc. Thanks grateful for you.