In this episode of As In Heaven, hosts Jim Davis and Mike Aitcheson welcome Mark Vroegop to discuss the role of lament in the conversation on race and justice. Mark shares his experience with exploring lament in the Bible and the Christian life, including how empathy and sympathy serve the conversation on race. Mark shares a helpful framework on how he thinks about racial reconciliation—love, listen, learn, lament, and leverage. Together, they address:

  • An introduction to Mark Vroegop (1:16)
  • Catalytic moments that drove Mark’s faith journey (4:18)
  • Why write about lament (5:53)
  • Leading others to lament as a pastor (8:54)
  • Preparing your soul for lament (12:42)
  • Defining empathy (14:39)
  • Experiences that led to Mark’s book on lament (19:55)
  • Lament in community (22:11)
  • Lament in minority cultures (24:23)
  • Lament and racial reconciliation (32:08)
  • When lament leads to reconciliation (33:45)

Explore more from TGC on the topic of race.


  1. Have you ever lamented? If so, when and under what circumstances? How did God use that in your life?
  2. How do sympathy and empathy relate to lament?
  3. Why is lament important in how we approach the conversation about racial reconciliation?
  4. What does it look like to love, listen, and learn in the conversation about racial reconciliation?
  5. What does it look like to lament and leverage with an aim toward racial reconciliation?