Why You Should Avoid Political Idols When Engaging the World Today

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Jim Davis
Welcome to as in Heaven season three. I am Jim Davis, your host and pastor of Orlando Grace Church and I’m joined by my co host, and dear friend, Michael Aitchison, who serves as the lead pastor and planter of Christ United fellowship also here in Orlando, and today we have the privilege of being joined by Dr. David Platt. David is the founder of radical than the senior pastor of McLean Bible Church in the Washington, DC metropolitan area. And David also has a new book coming out called Don’t hold back, leaving behind the American gospel to follow Jesus fully. And that deals with some of the issues that we’re going to talk about today. And David is someone that I’ve benefited from over the years, both as a missionary and a pastor and someone I’m thankful to count as a friend. So David, man, thanks for joining us today.

David Platt
I’m really looking forward to conversation. It’s really good to be with you guys.

Mike Aitcheson
And ditto to everything Jim just said, benefited greatly from your ministry over the years as well. Thank you for joining us this morning.

Jim Davis
Well, this season on the podcast, we’ve if you’ve been with us, you know, we’ve been talking about living in a new context in the US called the Great D churching. As 40 million people who used to go to church regularly now don’t, which is changing, not only so much about the church, but the very fabric of our society. We’ve commissioned Dr. Ryan Berge and Paul Jew, PhD sociologists to do a nationwide quantitative University reviewed study on the people leaving the church and we found that many were leaving, because they were struggling with the way that the church is handling political issues. We learned that many Americans have left the church because of political disagreements, and they haven’t just left a church, they are leaving the church 18% of those that we studied would say that a factor of their departure were political disagreements with congregation 16% would say a factor in their departure was political disagreements with the clergy. You know, in some do it amicably saying things like, listen, I just don’t agree with the politics of my pastor. And I’d rather be rather than being a thorn in his side, I’d rather just leave others, though, say things like the church seems to care more about issues of race and politics than the gospel. So you see it on both sides. 11% of those study, who left said that they wish their parents had navigated Jesus and politics better, and that if their parents had done so it could have impacted their decision to leave the church. So this deep searching is happening, both on the secular left and the secular, right, which is something we want to talk about. And obviously this point, hopefully, you can see that there is a lot of intersection between our research and David’s new book. So speaking of your book, David, let’s dive into that. First, what do you mean when you say, leaving behind the American gospel?

David Platt
Well, and this relates to so much of what you were just saying, I am convinced that we have traded in biblical gospel that exalts Jesus above everything in the world, for an American gospel that prostitutes Jesus for the sake of comfort and power, and politics and prosperity in our country. And I think the effects of that are all around us. I think that, well, I just I talked with many people who are discouraged, disillusioned by the church, I mean, this whole picture de churching, but even those who are still in the church, like, damaged, divided, certainly I’ve talked to a lot of people in the next generation who are disengaging from the church altogether. And I think just people looking around saying, I thought there was more to Jesus than this, I thought there was more to the church than this. And I wrote this book to say, there is when there’s so much more to Jesus, and so much more of the church than what we’re seeing what we’ve seen, especially over recent years in the church, but actually going back throughout our history, in many ways, and United States. And so there’s so much more to be experienced, we can experience it better, we can experience Him, like we can experience the awe filled wonder of Jesus and the other worldly unity and beauty of the church. But if we’re going to do so some things do need to be different. And not starting in those people out there, but in and you and me. And so that’s what I’ve written this book to do, I hope to to challenge the American gospel, but even more so to encourage the body of Christ to step into a different future. And we have the opportunity to do that today. And I think it relates to a lot of the issues that I think we’re going to talk about.

Jim Davis
So obviously Politics is one of those things, one of those ways that we minimize the the grandeur and the scope of what it is Jesus is doing. And so at a higher altitude as a pastor in our Capitol in Washington, DC, how does politics impact what you call the American gospel? And how has that on both the secular left and the secular right created tensions in your church that that you don’t think, are necessary to have?

David Platt
Yeah, this is, this is actually the first chapter I dive into in this, don’t hold back book. Because I, I look around, yes, especially after pastoring and Metro DC over the last five years. And I see a picture that instead of being eager to unite around Jesus and the gospel, and what’s clear and direct and his word, that we are really quick to divide over what I would call the idolatry of personal and political convictions, how we’ve taken things that it’s good to have even passionate strong convictions about. And we’ve made them so primary in our minds, and in our hearts, and in the decisions we make about even church. I mean, you guys really are doing the research have done the research. One of the things I dive into in the book is, oh, wait, we divide in the church, ethically, and we divide in the church, politically, very rarely do we find ourselves sitting on a Sunday morning with people who would have different, maybe even very different political convictions than we do. And, and so I’m pastoring a church, not just in Metro DC, but we have over 100 Different nations represented in our church. And so we have all kinds of people, not just from different ethnicities, but different backgrounds and perspectives with a lot of different convictions and opinions. And I just have no hope of uniting them all around, well around what I believe about all these political convictions, or what this or that person believes. No, but that’s that’s not what brings us together in the first place. I want to be part of a community, a body of Christ, where the only explanation for why these people are together is the cross and resurrection of Jesus. Otherwise, this this group of people would not be this close, not just in the same room. But this close. So all that to come back to Yes, I think the idolatry of personal and political convictions specifically has, has has caused us to miss out on that, not just unity, but that beauty that God’s designed for us in the church as followers of Jesus brothers and sisters in Christ. David, thank

Mike Aitcheson
thanks for that up. So you’ve kind of alluded to a follow up that I had, I wanted to drill down just a little bit more in that space of idolatry. As Christians, we have primary issues over which we should separate and secondary issues that we would call the application of wisdom. And it does seem like Christians today struggle more than we have in my lifetime with differentiating the two. An example of this from last season would be the primary Christian ethic that racism is bad than a secondary application of wisdom is a way forward. Because there requires wisdom, which may cause us to disagree, that makes it a secondary issue that we should be able to disagree on, and remain brothers and sisters in Christ. So as we move into the areas of politics, what core idols do you think are at play that cause Christians to make secondary issues over wisdom, primary issues, over which they have wished they will leave a church or the big C church? So what in that space? Can you drill down on what some of those idols might be?

David Platt
Yeah, man, there’s so much there. And I just, I would even add, so I’m in this is one of the things I do in the book, I divided into three kind of buckets, the primary meaning just what unites us as followers of Jesus, his brothers, sisters in Christ. Secondary would be things that bring us together in a local churches, which may be different among different Christians. I don’t expect everybody in Metro Washington DC to even have all the same secondary convictions or to be a part of the church that I’m pastoring like that we have a variety of different views on theological things and application of those things. And then kind of the third bucket would be things that you know, even in a local church we would agree to disagree on. So as an example, when it comes to up Paul tick’s there was one Sunday in 2020. When I, I said, we were walking through First Peter, and role of government and is coming up on the election and just said, if you think we as a church should divide over who you vote for how you vote in this presidential election, this is probably not going to be the church for you. Because we’re not going to divide over that here. We’re, that’s in the third bucket. So that’s not something we divide over. And I really thought that would not be a controversial statement. But that turned into a lot of challenges that came from that. But I genuinely was saying, and if you think we should divide over that, then you should probably be in a church where you put that in the second bucket. But we need to all keep that out of the first bucket. And we don’t need to and because I was hearing rhetoric, like you can’t be a Christian and vote for fill in the blank. And I actually heard it from both sides, with different candidates in that blank. And so you can’t be a Christian and do this like to put now how you vote in a presidential election on the level of so first bucket like substitutionary atonement of Jesus and triune nature of God, how you vote for an election, like certainly, these are not on the same level. But I think that that’s the tendency we have, and we see it in the Bible. And this is Romans 14 and 15. Right? The picture of different convictions that the church had, and first century over what holidays to celebrate, or what kind of food to eat or not eat. And Paul addresses that and says, Hey, have your convictions and actually hold them really tightly. But, and this is where when I think about idolatry, so one kind of elevating how you vote in an election to the level of gospel truth. But then at the idolatry of self that I think Paul is hitting out in Romans 14 and 15, when he says, Yes, hold your conviction passionately. But live to please and build up your brother who has different convictions than you do. I welcome him. And I mean, that’s the language use please him and unite together around Jesus, even though you have passionate differences on this. And the beauty is I saw that happen for those who stayed and said, Okay, this is a third bucket issue. And there was definitely passionate disagreement within our church family, in our church groups, as they talked about how how you vote in a presidential election, but they walked away holding on to the unity they had in Jesus. That’s, that’s what I mean by idolatry, making sure and I think that’s what you’re getting at with even just the primary and secondary. Like, we’ve got to make sure we put in perspective, what’s supreme, and what’s not supreme?

Jim Davis
Well, I appreciate the way you’ve added that third bucket, one of the convictions that has grown in me through the course of this research and writing the great D churching. Is that is the need for different manifestations of God’s Church in this in the same city. And I say this often in our pastoral prayer, I’m so thankful that we’re not the only church in the city that you know, Mike, he sends church is a very different expression than ours, and that one of my favorite stories, so it’s a multi ethnic church plant in closer to downtown Orlando, and there was a PCA, and I took my family there one Sunday when I wasn’t preaching. And, and I, you know, he brings the best of the black church into the PCA. And he’s, he’s singing and people are singing back, you got the organ and it was just, it was awesome. So we gotten in the car, and I asked my kids, hey, what would you think of Mike’s church? And one of my boys said, well, it was different. And then my other my, one of my other sons looked back and said, Well, that’s because they’re Presbyterian.

Unknown Speaker
All Presbyterian churches are like that.

Jim Davis
That’s pretty much every Presbyterian Church, but I appreciate like there is a it’s so good to have different expressions and manifestations of different churches in the city. So I appreciate the way you you’ve flushed that out in the second bucket. And then obviously, what we’re talking about as the third bucket. So that’s really helpful. You know, you are one of two pastors that I know who have been asked to pray publicly with a sitting president of the United States. President Trump dropped in unexpectedly on your church and you prayed for him. So I’m curious, like looking back now, how did that go? How do you process it and what advice do you have for Mike Aitchison if President Biden ever drops in on Christ United fellowship?

David Platt
Oh, man And, um, okay, so yeah, looking back and just kind of processing it just to set the context. Yeah, it was at the end of one of our worship gatherings on Sunday, and we’re about to take communion. And I get a message. somebody pulls me backstage and says, hey, the President’s gonna be here in five minutes. Can you Will you pray for him? Now? Much more. So, yeah, five minutes, like, and, and really, I gotta make a call like, right now. I mean, I’ve got Secret Service and one of our other pastors like sitting there backstage, I’m about to go back out on leave communion. And so I knew at that moment. So here’s what went through my mind. First, Timothy two definitely went through my mind, like pray for leaders and those in high positions, I mean, that biblically, we’re commanded to do that. So that’s a no brainer. But to bring someone on stage with media, and this is that’s not necessary. Now. Now we’re getting into as we think about buckets, like different application wisdom, what’s wise, and especially as I want to, I want to shepherd this church to unite around Jesus and around a political party or personality. And so that’s where, in that moment, and even looking back if you were to ask me, if I were to do anything different, I know, one of the things I try to do every morning is just pray through my day and pray for the spirits leadership. And I, I’m, I’m pretty hesitant to question what I or even say, Well, what I would do differently, if it’s not something that’s clear in the word, if it’s a matter of wisdom, I hope I was falling in leadership with the spirit in that moment, I guess, is the point. And so I said, Yeah, well, we’ll pray for him. But I knew at that point, that was going to cause some, it was gonna make some people happy, and some people not as happy. And, and for good reasons on both sides, I would say for good, biblical reasons. And so. So all that to say, after praying for him, I hope in a way that glorify the Lord and was edifying for him and his family and for those who are listening in our church. But I knew I wanted to explain what had happened, and how this had come about and how to process that and how I want you just to be supreme in the church, that this is not me jumping on a bandwagon behind a political personality or party. And so that night, I write something that we post the next morning just explaining what happened. And people read that the next day and some who were happy about me praying for the President. Now, I thought I was apologizing for praying for the President, which I never apologized. But they took that. So basically, I I made some people upset on Sunday, and some people happy and then on Monday, I turned around and took the people who were happy and I made them upset. And so by Monday night, Politico is. Got a headline out pastor apologizes for praying for president. And it was it was just all on the rest of that week. But all that to say, I just keep finished another story. It was a very long week, on so many different levels. But that’s Sunday. We walked through Romans 14 and 15. And I kind of walked through here’s why something because people Sunday, we’re like, why are those people upset? They shouldn’t have been upset, or why are those and it’s like, guys, So brothers and sisters in Christ, there are different ways to view this. Here’s why some would be happy that I’ve prayed onstage for the President, here’s why some would not be thrilled about that. And here’s good reasons why. And so let’s, what unites us is Jesus, and we’ve got to be able to have conversations and different perspectives on these things, and hold on to them. And by the end of that text, that sermon, it was awesome, like one of the most beautiful, powerful moments, I’m not saying the sermon was great, but I mean, people are on their feet, all of them, you could cut the tension at the beginning of the sermon. By the end, they’re on their feet, like lifting their hands praising Jesus is supreme. And it was awesome. At the same time, that that, yeah, I don’t know how to put it, but it didn’t last. Because the tensions kept coming in different ways, not just in our church, but in the culture around us. And that, that pull toward polarization. And I would say the inability, and I don’t think this is just true in our church family, but the inability of the church to be able to have a good, healthy, humble dialogue about those kinds of things and hold those tensions together with Jesus at the center. That became harder and harder and harder in the days to come. So So what would I say to Mike, if President Biden shows up, I would say, follow the leadership of the spirit. Be as best as you know how with, well, if you only have 10 seconds to make a call, you can’t even seek the counsel of others. So just keep your eyes fixed on the audience of one and do what the Lord leads you to do as best as you know, how and fight for unity around Jesus, and obedience to His Word, what is clear in his Word in the middle of all that?

Mike Aitcheson
That was a good words, David, would it be okay, if I said only if you let me catch a ride on Air Force One?

David Platt
I think that is that is up to the wisdom and leadership and spirit. But I would put that in the realm of possibility.

Mike Aitcheson
Well, you know, one of the complaints that a both Jim and I have received over the past couple of years is that we are to political and what we say and even preach. And to give some specific examples of this, we will say things like the pro life movement, I should be, you know, womb to tomb, the Imago Dei impacts how we view other races, and even that the character of our leaders matter. And so, interestingly enough, most of the people who give this critique are some of the most avid pro life supporters we know, which, of course, is of course, a political issue. How is a church leader to process how we apply the Bible’s teaching? And where does a pastor need to step back and hear the call not to be too engaged in politics?

David Platt
So good. And obviously, I do think there’s a sense in which much is every follower of Jesus has to come to a place of conviction about this. I think it’s true past really, and, and especially I think, biblically, it should be a plurality of pastors saying, Okay, how are we going to do this in this church, and that starts to get into this second bucket. And some churches may do that differently. So here’s how I would and, and the pastors alongside me, as we’ve dove into this, what we are trying to do is, is in the in the preaching, the gathered people of God for worship preaching to as best as possible. Make sure we are clear where the word is clear. And what’s being proclaimed is as close as possible to that which is direct and clear in God’s word, on issues that are isms issues of wisdom, either to put those into discussions and church groups in different places, or if we’re going to go there and a sermon to make sure we’re making a distinction between those two, where, where, when it comes to application of wisdom, that we say, you know, when it comes to how this plays out, it could play out this way or that way, and kind of give different perspectives that might be in the body on that. But to really make that distinction clear, I want, I want to shepherd our people to know, alright, this is what the Bible says clearly about abortion, what the Bible says clearly about justice what the Bible says clearly about racism, I think about something we did in June 2020. So this was a few months into COVID, aman arbury, and George Floyd. And so what we did is we and the my big regret is we weren’t able to do this in person. So it was all over screen, which was not, but it was hundreds of people involved. And what we did is we walked through, we open our Bibles together, we said, we’re gonna pray, we’re gonna fast and we’re going to study God’s Word, and what does the Bible say about justice and race. And so what we did is, we actually spent a week on the gospel say, This is what unites us a week on the church. This is how we relate to each other in the church. When we talk about these issues, we listen to each other, we love each other we empathize with and we lament with each other. There’s these are issues with a lot of hurt in our hearts when it comes to them. And so here’s how we relate to one another in church, according the Bible, this is all that which is super clear in the Bible. Justice, what does the Bible say about justice? We went through biblical definition of justice, and all kinds of verses about justice. Here’s the what the Bible clearly says. So we’re not why isn’t intentionally trying to avoid like getting into some of the wisdom application of those things. So justice and race, here’s what the Bible teaches about ethnicity, and these sort of things. And these are some of the things I dive into in this book. So we did those weeks on that, and then we clearly differentiated differentiated. Okay, now we’re going to have some discussions about how to apply that. And just so you know, you’re going to hear some things that you disagree with. These are not official positions of our church. This is brothers and sisters in Christ sharing their perspective based on the He’s choosing to go. We’re all together on the gospel, we are the church, we’re gonna love each other like this. Here’s what the Bible says about justice race. Now let’s talk about it. And I just found our muscles for having those kinds of conversations were not very developed, and all the more so when we’re trying to do it over screens. And when it’s so easy to go back into kind of an echo chamber, where you’re just around people who have your perspective instead of sitting around the table. So I would even contrast that with something we did recently, we had a group, and one of our locations here in DC went through multi week journey, where they’re sitting around together talking about those issues of wisdom, on political issues, whether it’s how to approach what do we do about abortion, Bible’s clear God values children in the womb? What does that mean we do, and all kinds of different perspectives on how to approach that criminal justice reform, how all kinds of different perspectives now, this was at a church group, and a smaller group setting. And there were I mean, tears in the way people were sharing about what they think about this or that. But it was beautiful, because they were doing it as the church with the gospel at the core not looking to these things to unite us. That’s what if we kept saying like, and I would just keep saying over and over again, these issues and discussions about them won’t divide us, if Jesus is what unites us. The problem is, when we think these things are going to unite us, that’s when we get into division. So we can be free to have all these conversations about these things. And, yeah, to have good passionate conversations about them, and still walk away, unite around Jesus, because we’re not looking for those things to unite us. So, man, there’s a lot more we can talk about there. But that’s how we’re trying to do this in our church family. And I would say, no one of us as a pastor is perfect, and how to go about that we’re learning along the way. But we want to be super clear with the Bible’s direct and clear. And we want to be super compassionate and humble, and listening and learning and lamenting and understanding where we’re applying the Bible to certain things.

Jim Davis
All right. Well, David, I want to pull on that thread just a little more. And it’s very similar question, but a little more specific. One of the many arguments we had in our church in 2020, was whether or not to hand out voter guides in church, either in the lobby or in worship, or as people walked in to kind of let people know the issues and how, how they should vote. This is something I posed. But it raises the question, what role does a pastor or church leader play when it does come to informing people how to vote on a particular election with particular issues?

David Platt
Yeah, man. Well, I mean, I just put it out there, I wrote a little book for our church, and then it was available beyond called before you vote, just different questions to ask, but it was to try to try to help shepherd our people. And I didn’t preach through this. But it was a what I hoped was a practical help for thinking through. Here’s questions to ask not, here’s how you should vote, I would have the same aversion to and our pastors would have the same aversion to those too many voter guides, that seemed to isolate certain issues and certain perspectives on certain issues, and not focus on other issues and, and how to address those issues. And so I just, I think it’s really hard to put on one piece of paper, here’s exactly how this is. Now I even as I say that, I know there, there are pastors who disagree with that. And that’s where, okay, just realize that you’re then this is you’re putting into the second bucket issue in the church in a way that if somebody doesn’t agree with this, that they’re probably this is probably not going to be the church that that come together. And hopefully, even in that circumstance, there’s still love for brothers and sisters in Christ in that first bucket who hold a different and is, but in convictions about some of those things. But when I wrote that, that book, I, I really my purpose in writing the book was to say we need to unite around Jesus. And let’s help understand how these different questions lead to different answers in some people’s lives because they weigh different issues and approaches to different issues. And my aim was genuinely to try to, in the end say, we are united around Jesus and what’s clear in his word, and His Word doesn’t tell us exactly how to vote on this or that unless it’s a very clear issue like we’re voting on. Is abortion right or wrong, like and that’s really clear in a way that the Bible would directly speak to so the closer we get to that kind of level, but the the The further away we get in how to approach that, or you throw in 100 other issues that you’re going to weigh through, but you would certainly do in a political and a presidential election. Okay, that’s where some different leaders are just starting to weigh things differently and approach things differently. And so I genuinely was trying to unite the body around the gospel. And but it was, yeah, there was a lot of fallout from that too. So all that to say, I don’t none of these are easy waters to wade through. And but I that’s that’s part of why I titled this book don’t hold back, is because I have been tempted all throughout the journey to just man, it’d be a lot easier just to not engage all kinds of issues of justice and the ones that are costly to engage in. And it’d be a lot easier to coast and a lot more comfortable. And by God’s grace, I’ve had wise brothers and sisters in Christ in my life who have spoken into my life along the way and said, man, don’t don’t hold back. And I don’t want to hold I don’t want to I don’t want to coast not when it comes to the gospel. I don’t want to, I want to press in. And I think we actually have, sorry, this is kind of getting off your question. But I think we have so many beautiful opportunities. And this will come back around to the whole Detroit thing that you guys are helping us see understand, we have such an opportunity to show a different future, a future where we’re not fighting with each other but but we’re working together for the spread of the gospel and justice in the world around us like we have an opportunity to show a beautiful unity around Jesus that makes no sense in a polarized political world. So let’s step into those things. And so that’s where we’re now to combat your question, anything we can do in the middle of an election or anything else to help promote unity around Jesus and core convictions, United States church and cultivate developing those muscles, and the church to be able to have conversations about tertiary issues that we may be very passionate about, but to put them in their proper place. That’s what I would want to do. And I think our pastors want to do and in our church family,

Jim Davis
well, I hear you talking. And what you’re talking about is we live in a different kingdom, we have a different citizenship, one is greater than the other. But this kingdom that we’re in, and the citizenship that we have, it does have enemies, there are enemies to the church. And one of the things that I would, I would appreciate about people who were maybe upset with me or Mike or you on either side, is that they do see generally a real enemy, I mean, they are a real threat would be the way a better way to say there are threats to the church. There are threats both on the secular left and the secular, right. And I would argue that the threat to our secular left is much larger, it really is a larger enemy. But the threat to the secure from the secular right in many cases, while smaller is closer, which can make it more dangerous. So last season, we talked with Trevin wax about what he calls multi directional leadership, which is the ability to see threats in multiple directions, instead of just seeing one threat either to the left or the right as the as the other one creeps up right behind you without you knowing it. So would you help us to understand how you perceive the threats to the American church, both on our left and our right, and what leaders of churches can do to navigate these threats?

David Platt
Well, and so much because my mind there, and I think about Yeah, I don’t know how to have to process even some of that it’s good. It’s got me thinking like, smaller and larger it because it feels pretty large on both sides, in a sense, and I think there’s a sense in which you say that too, but like, and so yeah, how do you how do you engage spiritual battle? And and I just, that’s where I definitely want to point out even as we talked about enemies, like it’s spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms that are enemies. It’s not certainly not people, ultimately. I mean, yes, Jesus talks about loving your enemies. So there’s a sense in which you might see people as enemies but that’s the point you love them. And we are fighting against that’s that’s one of the things that I dive into in the book that I just wrote is that man we’re, we are prone to use God’s word like it’s a weapon in a culture war, when it’s water for thirsty desert like and how we use and wield God’s word is, it’s big. So that and I, I’m not the only one who’s used this language, but I’ve got a whole chapter on compassion and conviction and holding those together. I think that’s how to end engage the battle on all sides, in multiple directions is, and I see this I mean, the example I give and I could think of millions of them are many of them. But our brothers and sisters around the world who are on the frontlines of unreached people, and they’re they’ve got threats, coming out them physically and spiritually all the time. And they are studying God’s Word with zeal, like have spent 12 hours a day with them and underground settings, they love the word there, they’re given their lives and know it. And they’re going out and proclaiming it, and love for the people around them know what it will cost in their lives. And so they’re not afraid to engage with love and compassion. So compassion and conviction, I think, I don’t want in any way to loosen my grip, certainly on that which is central the gospel, the authority of God’s word, and that which is direct and clear and the word of God, I want to hold tightly there. And to a sense, you, in a sense, even have deep conviction about even third kind of bucket issues. But with all of that, to be compassionate, like that’s where, when I think about, well, some of the some of the hot button issues when it comes to sexuality in our culture, like I want to hold us to biblical conviction. And I don’t want to show honor, and love and compassion I want. I don’t think it is good. And honoring to God, that many people who are on other sides of that issue in the world around us do not feel honored and loved by Christians, when we have been told commanded by God, what’s direct and clear, honor everyone, even the Emperor First Peter to so even the Emperor who’s persecuting Christians honor them. So what does that look like? Are we known for honor them our compassion or love for them? And then so how do we apply that on both sides, while holding on to conviction and again, having some things in their proper buckets, but holding on to conviction with that kind of compassion? That’s what I feel like a lot of the conversations and other leaders in our church and followers of Jesus in our church, it’s it’s constantly saying, Alright, let’s let’s not compromise on a conviction, certainly on first order of things, and then even holding fast to some of the things that we disagree on. It’s fine to hold hold strongly to those things. But let’s do that with love compassion, with listening, that our conversations and dialogue and relationships would have a Savior have that kind of compassion would be revolutionary. And our culture. Again, it’s one of the opportunities we have, if we’ll take it.

Mike Aitcheson
Yeah, David, man, what a wealth of wisdom. I mean, we could isolate that, that that was a a mini sermon right there, that captures the heart of what we really need to consider in this space. Thank you. You know, one of the real struggles for American Christians today is that we’re losing power in our culture. We have been used to exercising power from the center. But increasingly, we are being pushed out of that space. You know, in Jim, and Mike’s forthcoming book, The Great detaching, they wrote a chapter on embracing exile. And the premise being that the norm for the Christian church has been, and still is, in the global east and south to exercise our influence from the margins of power, rather than from the seat of power. If we are in fact moving to the margins of cultural power, then I want you to feel free to disagree with that premise. If you want. What advice do you have to the church about this shift, knowing that this shift is causing a lot of concern and fear?

David Platt
And that’s a great question. I would agree with premise. My mind goes in a few different directions. One, I think it’s it’s helpful for us to acknowledge that even when there was more power, that was not always wielded by Christians, for good. I mean, obviously, the racial history of our country shows that pretty clearly that some would say that 50 years ago, the church had more influence more power, but like, how is that being wielded? And that’s, yeah, so let’s not assume that just because we have power, things would be great. Like power is, yeah, can be a really unhealthy thing in the hands of sinful people, which we are and so but it, okay, the current climate we find ourselves in and increasingly so I think we certainly find comfort in the fact that the Bible we read, particularly the New Testament gives us a picture of how to live in that setting. I don’t I don’t think we should glamorize that setting and the sense that Well, I think about our brothers and sisters in Afghanistan, right now like they, it’s not like they love being on the, the, the margins of with no power, like that’s, that’s very oppressive and very dangerous for them. So it’s not that, oh, this is a great thing. But at the same time, we have a Savior who has all authority in heaven and on earth. So one, he’s in control, so we can trust like we can trust and it’s okay to have a pretty low expectation and that sense for this world. We’re not live in this world. That’s the beauty. That’s why when he really bought an American gospel, because we have a gospel that transcends our country that is going to fall one day, the whole thing is going to fall, it’s all going to be gone. And so that that’s not what we’re holding on to. And I’m not saying we want to speed that up or anything, but let’s just acknowledge it. And and then yes, and the time and place in which God has put us. So if that’s the case, if there are trends toward less and less better, then okay, we’re more and more like the New Testament church. So how do we operate? How do we and so let’s make disciples of the nations, let’s live quiet, decent lives, let’s be salt and light in other in ways that people would see our good deeds and glorify our Father in heaven. Let’s make our conversation Season with salt. And let’s be now we’re getting in the New Testament commands to be eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Like we’re, we got to be together in this like, we don’t need to be fracturing when, when we are trying to share the gospel, I was just preaching recently from walking through Mark, Mark 942 through 50. It’s when Jesus is talking about hell, unquenchable fire, where the worm doesn’t fire and doesn’t die in the fire is not quenched, like the eternality of hell, this horror of hell, the language Jesus uses. And then at the very end of that passage, he talks about being salt, and being at peace with each other. And I’ve always thought, Well, that was kind of a left turn. But it makes sense. When you think about it, like, I won’t go into the whole sermon. But But, and, I mean, there are millions of people around me right now in Metro DC, who run a road that leads to an eternal hell, and billions of people around the world who have never even heard the gospel. And we have the gospel, we know where we’re going for eternity. Like, let’s, let’s be salt in this world, and let’s be at peace with each other, let’s not fight with each other, let’s fight to win the, let’s not fight against each other, let’s join hands together and fight for the spread of the gospel in the world around us knowing it’s going to be costly, it’s going to be hard, it’s gonna be difficult, and it’s going to be beautiful. And it’s going to be what we read about, and the New Testament. So when I read the New Testament, I walk away with concern and fear, I walk away with hope. And that’s what I love about the book of Revelation. This is just God’s speech. He’s just speaking to His Church in the middle of persecution in the middle of the margins. And he’s saying, Hold fast, and look where it’s going. Don’t be lowered by that power. Don’t be lowered by it. Don’t, don’t try to grasp on like, thrive with the gospel holdfast with integrity to your faith, patiently endure. And don’t forget where this is all going. So that’s that’s where the biblical gospel leads us.

Jim Davis
Well, I love that I love the emphasis on hope. And it’s a bigger hope. It’s a bigger hope than anything we have in this political realm. Man, in chapter six of your book, I want to merge that hope with love because you talk about the role of love as we move forward. So can you flesh that out a bit? In this, this will be the last question and apply that love to the conversation we’re having today.

David Platt
Oh, man. Think about my quiet time this morning. It was in Mark 12, which is where Jesus gives us the two great commandments and Mark’s gospel. And I was talking to my son as I was driving in this morning. My buddy, this is it. This sums it all up. Like if there’s one thing I pray for the early two things if there’s two things that I pray for you more than anything else, is that you’d love God wholeheartedly. And you’d love other selflessly. Like God, so I pray over any future wife, you might have any kids you might add. So I pray over myself for a prayer of our family and our church. Love God wholeheartedly. Love others selflessly. Yeah, that that is there’s so much Should the conversation we’ve just had, that really does boil down to that, like love God wholeheartedly love God, maybe even use the word supremely. And may He be supreme in our affections. That’s part of what I try to develop in that chapter in the book is, and I share the overflow of my own life and some of the things we’ve walked through as a church, like we don’t need. We for far too long. I think, in so many ways that we may not even realize we seek God as a means to an end, as opposed as the end. And when we started having late night and all night, prayer gatherings, where the only thing that’s bringing us together is just seeking God as the end. And it has been beautiful and awesome and convicting and transforming. And I think that’s, that’s our great need to come together as the Body of Christ. Love for God for Jesus supremely, above all, everything we have, and then to have supernatural empowering, and I don’t use that language, lightly. But supernatural, empowering to love other people selflessly in a way that looks very different from the way the world around us operates. And so how can we model that kind of love for each other? Where last where were servants for were slaves of all? So how does that what does that look like in the church? And then what does that look like in the world around us as we seek to lead people to Jesus that feels pretty central? In this whole conversation? It feels very basic, but what does that look like in practice loving God wholeheartedly loving others? Selflessly. So yeah, I think if we were doing that, it would it would address a lot of things that we’re talking about.

Jim Davis
Oh, my man, I can’t think of a better place to land the plane. I’m just really appreciate you what you’re doing who you are. And we will certainly be praying for your your book, don’t hold back and continue to pray for your ministries through radical Maclean. And otherwise, thanks so much for joining us,

David Platt
man, so good. I’m just thankful for you guys. I think for what you’re doing, trying to do is we’re all kind of learning along the way it’s good to be in the body of Christ doing this together. So grateful for you guys, and all you’re doing.

Jim Davis
Thanks again, David. Join us next week as we talk with Jen Wilkin, about why seeing and honoring the gifts and abilities of women is relevant to dechurching.