Front Row Seat: Walking with God

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Kristen Wetherell
Well, Kari, I was walking through what I would describe as a spiritual dry season, or I’ve heard people use this phrase before perhaps even like a spiritual depression. We have young kids, as you know, and you know, our kids had been sick multiple times. And so we were home all winter, you know, it’s the Midwest, so it’s gray, it’s cold, there’s not much to do. And I felt lonely, honestly, just isolated and lonely. And on top of that, I had miscarried our second baby. So we were also walking through like a season of more intense suffering as well. And it’s hard to describe, but they kind of felt like the Lord was far from me and not that, not that I felt he was cold toward me or angry with me or anything like that. But it was just this feeling of just this feeling of apathy, like my I felt very emotionally flat. And I just wanted so badly for the joy of my salvation to be restored again. So that it was just so hard. I think one of the one of the hardest parts accompanying this was that I wasn’t sure how to talk about it. Especially with the women in my church, I’m part of a small group, I co lead it with a sister of mine, and I struggled to know how to navigate this, you know, how do I, how do I bring this up? Because well, bringing it up, freak them out. But disappoint them that the pastor’s wife is in this spot, spiritually? How do I navigate this? And then how will they still feel supported and loved even though I feel like I’m having trouble supporting myself and struggling to walk with God myself, if that makes sense. So this was just such a hard season, but man, after talking to my husband about it, and it’s asking the Lord to give me bravery to bring that up to them. I was just surrounded with love, be surrounded with compassion, surrounded with me to is, you know, I’ve been there. And just a sense of solidarity with these women. And it was such a comfort to me, and honestly, the Lord, use that. And he used the solidarity and the prayers of these women to lift these clouds. And it took time, and it was God’s time, not mine. But you know, just continuing to be in the word and praying myself and receiving their prayers. Eventually, the clouds kind of lifted and I felt like the joy of my salvation was restored. That’s the only way that I can describe it. But these are just sensitive things. You know, I think we all go through them in our own ways.

Kari Olson
We do. Thank you for sharing that vulnerable story. Thank you for sharing that place that you were at with us because it is a place that is familiar, I think to a lot of us. But anyone, all who are in Christ need to pay attention to and tend to their own spiritual life. The pastor’s wife is no exception to this. I’m so glad for your your example that way. We are so thankful to have our friend Joanna Kubiak here with us to encourage us on this exact topic. What exactly what Kristin was talking about? walking with God, knowing and being known? Yes. Good topic. Joanna is married to Tom and they serve as church planters in the greater Chicagoland area. But not only that Joanna writes a blog called sacred wanderings for ministry wives, she also leads a ministry called 27. Pastors, wives, gatherings. Now these are small groups of pastors wives, who come together for rest and a chance to process their ministry life together. In fact, Kristen and I first met Joanna, at one of these gatherings. Right? And that’s right. Yes, we have been blessed, so blessed by her heart of worship, and her heart for us. We feel that you, Joanna, thank you for being here on a row seat. I have courage meant for pastors, wives, by pastors wives. We’re so happy you’re here.

Joanna Kubiak
I am so happy to be here because this is a ministry that just sings to my heart because I have such a passion for pastors wives. I’ve been a pastor’s wife for over 37 years now. And I was a pastor’s daughter before that. So, you know, I just My heart beats with ministry living women. And I’m so happy to join you in this conversation.

Kari Olson
Thank you. Well, before we start, we have some great questions for you. I’m in a conversation that I’m excited to have. But would you tell us a little bit about you herself. You said 35 years of ministry

Joanna Kubiak
37. Give me two more. There’s a little more there. Yeah.

Kari Olson
So what does minitry look like for you guys, these days?

Joanna Kubiak
Um, well these days, well, actually, my husband Tom and I have been involved in Urban Ministry for 30 years before it was as popular maybe as it is now. And we’ve been involved in turnaround churches and church plants. And now we’re in a new season, the most recent church plant is up and running the man my husband, mentored to be the pastor is in place, and we’re going into a new season of ministry, my husband will be doing some new things. And working alongside senior pastor in a church location. So we’re excited about this. No matter how old you get, there’s never a dull moment in ministry, right? And I’m finding that out even now. So we’re excited.

Kristen Wetherell
Very good and wonderful. Well, we like Carrie said, we’ve just been so blessed by you, Joanna, we’ve gathered with you has it been two or three times now?

Joanna Kubiak
Yeah, something like that. You’re gonna see me again.

Kristen Wetherell
So we highly encourage the listeners to check out this ministry because it has blessed our churches, pastors, wives, we have a larger church. So there are many pastors wives, but it has blessed us a ton and has fostered our walking with God. You know, that’s really the whole point of it is that we would abide in Jesus. And that’s the topic of our conversation today. So Juliana, maybe we could just do kind of a flyover. But what are what are the characteristics of a person, a woman, a pastor’s wife, who is walking with God?

Joanna Kubiak
You know, the phrase, walking with God is such a beautiful word picture, in any serious Christian thrills to the idea, or the thought of walking with God in reality. And yet, it seems that we have only a vague kind of patchwork of ideas of what that really entails. And I know personally, for me, to even begin to understand a reality like walking with God, I need I need the beautiful word pictures, but I need more I need true stories. And I need real life examples of what that means. And so when you ask me what is walking with God, I think of people, I think of real life examples. And the first one that comes to my mind is my grandma. My grandma showed me what it means to walk with God. And not by anything, she said to me. It wasn’t by her words, not even necessarily by her actions, but by a presence that was with her. It didn’t matter if things were chaotic, even if she was concerned or or stressed about something. There was this rock solid stability about her that was peaceful. And being with her felt refreshing and calming. And you walked away feeling like especially when I was older, feeling like I had had some sort of spiritual encounter, even if nothing spiritual was said. So you know, was this because she was this great saints? No, no, she was just an ordinary woman saved by the grace of God like you and me. But you know what, she had a secret. And her secret was tucked away in a corner of her living room. It was a comfy chair, with a tattered marked up Bible on the side table. Because that corner was where my grandma spent time in the presence of Jesus. He the Scripture tells us that when the priests were serving in the temple, they would mix this unique blend of spices together, and it could only be used, burned there before the Holy of Holies. This the special aroma. And when those men left the temple and walked out into the marketplace, everyone stood and respect and silence. There was no need to blow a trumpet and announced they’re coming. Because the fragrance of that spice aroma had so filled their garments that everyone knew they had been with in the presence of God. Women who walk with God, spend time in the presence of Jesus, it was the fragrance of Jesus that that fell on my grandma during those times. And she did just check it off. You know, I spent time in the presence of Jesus, You take that presence with you into every corner of your every day. And and when you walk with God, you spend time women that do that they spend time in the presence of Jesus and they don’t consider it optional. Neither do they consider it a chore. Yeah. And I’m not talking about legalism. There’s no getting brownie points with God because I did this time. I’m talking about longing. You know? Psalm 27 kind of longing. One thing I’ve decided of the Lord, that will I seek, that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life to behold the beauty of the Lord, to meditate in his temple, that Psalm 73 kinds of longing, Whom have I in heaven, but you and there’s no one on earth, I desire my my health, my film it, but God is the strength of my life and, and then the beautiful psalm 63, I lay awake at night thinking about you, because you are my help I sing in the shadow of your wings, my still clings to you. And your right hand forever holds me vast, this kind of longing is part of walking with God. But we don’t just have that comfy chair, we have that tattered, marked up Bible. And I believe that a woman who walks with God has a serious, diligent mindset about the Word of God. And you know that the two can seem very different, but they’re not. They’re connected. And when I think of that, I think of when I’m turning here to Second Peter chapter one, these these verses that we’re so familiar with, you know, that God has given us everything pertaining to life and godliness. And he’s given it to us through the work of his son. And he’s given it to us by these exceedingly great and precious promises. I think that’s the old translation, but I love it. And because of this is I pick up in verse five. For this reason, make every effort to add to your faith, virtue and then it goes virtue it add to virtue knowledge and then self control, patient endurance, and to patient’s interests, Catalinas, godliness, brotherly kindness and love and, and then we’re told if these qualities are growing in our life, will be productive will be efficient. And a woman who walks with God is on that journey of learning, because it is a journey, we can’t jump ahead and get to this great, proficient way of showing and expressing agape love, we grow into that we seek to express it all the way along, but we become proficient and consistent as we’re growing in that journey. And a woman who walks with God is serious about the Word of God. You know, when you think about these two aspects of walking with God, I think we can gravitate our personalities can kind of gravitate to one or the other. You know, you’re either gravitate to those beautiful psalms and longing heart, you want to grow that, or you kind of gravitate more to digging deep in the word and new insights. But if we’re going to walk with God, we have to have both. And it really doesn’t matter which one we gravitate to, maybe we actually need to work more on the one we don’t we, I’m sure we do gravitate to as much but it doesn’t matter because we need both in our journey if we’re going to be set apart as someone who’s not just a serious Christian, but what a woman who walks with God, we need both of those. And did you guys notice how both aspects happen in hidden places. They happen when they involve an applauded choices. You know, when I when I turn off the TV, and I close the screens to open my Bible, there’s not a little group of people in the corner cheering me on, you know, saying Good choice, you needed to do that, you know, when the whole house is dark, everybody’s asleep, and I’m exhausted. But I’m in the living room in the dark on my knees. No one’s saying Good call, you needed that more than you needed sleep. But those are the things those are those private things that only me and God know about. And when we walk with God, we love that. It’s his spirit and my spirit in the secret places of my heart and soul that only he and I know about. And a woman that walks with God loves that. And, you know, does this mean that she’s, you know, ideals, we got this woman walking with God who never struggles with consistency and, and proficiency and these into these areas of longing and learning it? And my answer is no. Because everybody struggles with consistency and efficiency and productivity and learning these things. But a woman who walks with God, there are two things that set her apart in this area while we’re we all struggle and I think all of us who who who want to have that longing, we want to have that learning journey. I would call us wannabes. And I don’t mean that in a negative way. That’s a great thing to watch. Right? So we’re wannabes. But what sets sets us above that pack of wannabes and become actually a woman who walks together I think are two things. The first is that we invite Jesus in to our struggles with consistency. And with you know efficiency and learning and applying God’s word. We say Oh Lord, you see My schedule, this is crazy. Come walk with me, help me, help me prune help me, we asked him to, to come into those times when I’m so brain dead, I can’t even read a verse and know what I read, I can’t even focus to pray. And I’m sitting here we invite Him into our struggles. Not so we can, you know, there’s a culture that says, Oh, that’s good enough, that’s living. No, it’s so that we can get to those places where there is more consistency, and there’s more growth, we invite him into the struggle, and to that journey of learning and loving and longing. And then the second thing that sets a woman who walks with God apart, is that she never ever, ever gives up. You know, we have the enemy of our soul who wants to He’s so clever, and cunning on the way he comes at us just like Eve using scripture. And then, and he says, you know, this isn’t your personality, you know, you’re not wanting to have these deep longings for a guy that just that’s other type people, or you know, you’re not wanting to really study you never, you’re not one that’s really going to start working on application. That’s just not who you are. And God understands that, you know, he always says, or the rationalization that Jana Did God really say that I mean, this is a little overboard, you know, this is, you know, the devil is very clever, and how he gets to us, and we can get a whole pack of Christian community to back us up on these little things. But a woman who walks with God says, no, she never gives up, she draws the Lord in, invites him into her struggles. And she doesn’t stay struggling. She keeps going till he gets into that new place, kind of a long answer.

Kari Olson
So helpful. Oh, very helpful. Thank you for just how thoughtful that was, it was a very thoughtful answer. I know you have been believer for a long time you have walked with God for a long time. And and knowing you a little bit, I know that you have also had seasons of despair in your own faith. Would you tell us a little bit about that? What contributed to that season? Or seasons? And what what did you do? How did you know you needed help?

Joanna Kubiak
Well, Kari, I think I shared with you one particular season that stands out, you know, and it would be the crisis if you would season of up struggling after that, you know that there’s little things and bigger things. But this was more monumental, I guess it was. I didn’t question my faith. But I was in a, as Kristen mentioned, a deep spiritual depression. And it shocked me. You know, I had a lot of pride. I didn’t think I would struggle with something like that. It kind of blindsided me, I had been a pastor’s wife for about nine years at that point. So it was relatively early on, we had just moved to a new ministry. And beware, because Satan loves to attack when you start something new. And I believe that was a point but there was really strong satanic attack going on in my life. But I was easily prey I had made myself easy prey. I, I have three children. And I had three children four and under for a time, I was you know, pushing the limits everywhere. And I kind of sucked up to that, hey, pray over the ironing board though. Nobody irons anymore. But say over the ironing board running out the door. You know, just quote a verse as you go. I didn’t do that entirely. But I did way too much of that. And I was weak. That was weak. And then I it was a combination of a lot of things, little things, as I look at them now, even after I got past it like what these little things, but the Devil loves to make little things big, out of out of proportion. And they were little things, relational issues, things from my past. Just small, relatively small things. But the biggest piece was that I had expectations of what I thought ministry life was going to be like for my husband and me by this time. And they weren’t. And the reality was kind of that they might never be. I look back at those expectations. And I laugh because they were ridiculous. But you know, at the time, they were huge. They were big and and they weren’t funny, then you know. And I had a lot of problems, a lot of things also just in myself. I was miserable. I didn’t know what to do. I had found out that there was a woman in our church that was known to be a prayer warrior. I didn’t know these people. I didn’t feel comfortable like Kristen with her group. I didn’t even know these people yet. But I went to her and I asked her to pray for unspoken requests. It wasn’t the kind of thing I could have shared with a parishioners it wouldn’t have been wise many things we can but there are certain things we can’t. But I asked her and she prayed. I heard Elizabeth Elliot who has ministered To me through the years, sure that there are times in our lives where we need to pray that God will save us from ourselves. And I prayed that and God led me to a pastors wives retreat. And there I was able to speak with the speaker. And she prayed over me, she spent time with me, it was safe place to really share everything. And I got up from my knees when she laid hands and prayed over me, feeling like I had been born again, again. And all of those things that seemed so heavy, were so small, and those kinds of experiences, I think I really tell tale signs of of satanic attack, because they make no sense. Why was I involved in that and, and I learned a lot about being on guard, and that listening to that voice that you’re busy and you just pray when you can and read when you can?

Kristen Wetherell
Yeah, yeah, that’s really good. I appreciate your mention Joanna have pride and

Joanna Kubiak
play, it played a big part in setting me up for the enemy, that’s for sure.

Kristen Wetherell
For sure. And I have absolutely seen that in my own heart. How, you know, for pastors wives, in particular, the the thought the wrong thought that we should somehow have things all together is not only does no one have it all together, we’re human too, you know, and and so I think that pride can often keep us from seeking the help that we need, and even go into the Lord in utter brokenness and saying, I have nothing, which is the state of the Christian heart, right? I have nothing. You are everything. And so I need you. I need who you are what you have to give me. So kind of on that topic, you touched on it in your first response, but I want to dig a little deeper. How can we make sure that our faith is growing? Strengthening, that it’s being nourished? And that it’s not withering? What is it that we can pursue?

Joanna Kubiak
I love that question. I think it’s important because we can be so self deceived. I certainly can. We need some, some sticks to stand in the ground to go to when life is good. And when life is bad. Either way. I think there’s a couple questions, we need to ask ourselves important questions. The first one is what makes me feel like I’m okay. But what makes me feel okay, in my own personal walk with God and my and in my husband’s ministry, what what makes you think we’re on track? We’re okay, you know, we’re, we’re in the right direction. And it’s so easy to base that feeling of being okay. When the kids are doing great are married, just super things are falling in line at church and people are growing. It’s so easy think, Okay, we’re on track, yay, praise God. But that may or may not be the case. It’s just so easy to measure, by the way things are, seem on the surface, right? And even our own personal comfort. Paul said he didn’t even evaluate himself because he didn’t trust himself to know his own motives. And God knows I don’t trust myself. I can, I don’t know, my, I’m afraid to even attempt. But he did validate himself in second conic of Second Corinthians five and six and and part in 12. He validated his ministry, I’m a legit minister. And there were three things he used to, to prove that he was legit in ministry. The first was that he was staying faithful through the ever changing seasons of ministry life. And I have to ask myself, Am I staying faith I might earnestly saying to he said I am learning or in his case he had learned to endure hardships well. Am I learning to endure hardship? Well, and the third was, he was displaying God’s strength through his own personal weaknesses. And so you know, I have to ask myself that lay aside whether things are great or if things there’s things are really bad. And on the surface, we can feel like, Oh, am I on track? If we are on track with these three things, we are on track. We’re okay. And I think we need to move that goalposts on what we measure. And the second question, I think we need to ask ourselves, and this is a very dear thing to me. We need to ask ourselves, where are we seeking our sustenance? It’s so easy to seek that sustenance, to hang on to persevere to go on image to seek it in the fruit. Fruit never sustained anybody. Our sustenance comes from the vine it comes from Jesus. And when the fruit is there, we all want fruit. Of course we Do and God says if we abide in Him, we will eventually have fruit. But there are seasons of fruit and there’s, there’s seasons of drought. But when we are sustained by the vine, then then we’re gonna make it we’re gonna persevere and you guys, my husband has been involved in ministry networks for pastors, support networks, for pastors, small groups and things just like I am. And there are so many quitting and and you can tell testimonies of men who have said, you know, being in community being in groups saved them from the self deceptions of you know, I’m, I’m a failure because there’s no fruit or I’m a failure, because there’s everything’s aren’t aren’t going great. So I think it’s really important to ask those questions, and then also to reflect on am I walking with God? Do I have that comfy chair and that tattered Bible? Yeah, yeah.

Kari Olson
That is that those are so good to be self assessing, we need to be self assessing. And, you know, when, when she does that, though, and she finds her place herself in a place of doubt, of weakness, she is in that crisis, moment of faith. The pastor’s wife can be nervous to talk about it, like Kristin said, can be nervous even to admit it to her own husband sometimes. What does what can she do? Then? How can she get that courage to be someone of because be have integrity about where she is and admit where she is?

Joanna Kubiak
Well, sadly, knowing our human nature, there are times where we have to get pretty low before we’ll do what we need to do. You know, and I’m, we’ve worked with, at risk people groups, and you think, Oh, this is such a sad time, such a hard time they’ll turn to the Lord now. And you know, it has to get really bad sometimes. And for us, we have to realize how desperate we are. It’s sometimes hard is to tell our husband, I like that you mentioned that. But there’s some tough pills of reality, we need to swallow. And we need to be desperate enough to do that. We have to be wise. And there are certain things that I don’t think, are wise to share with parishioners, not just not because of pride. But because of protecting maybe your husband to say, you know, my husband has been short with the kids and me. And yet they don’t need to hear that. You could say hey, as a couple, we struggle with everyday stuff, we don’t have to be specific, we need to share that we struggle like everyone else. But we don’t need to give specifics. In those cases. However, we do need to be open and say it all to somebody. And so, you know, I would say a 27 passage lies, gatherings, these are virtual as well as in person, or if you know, a pastor’s wife in your area that you can trust and you get away with, if you have no one to talk to. In a time like that. Please, please, please. And even if you do, please get some biblical counseling because you it’s not a thing you let ride. And if you aren’t ready to tell your husband or to tell anyone else, start with biblical counseling to help you get to that point. You know, they’re there. I’ve been in situations where the budgets so tight, you know, a small church, we don’t have a lot and insurance isn’t great or hardly at all. And, you know, there are a means by which you can get professional biblical counseling. You can check with your denomination, sometimes. Well, I know of even counseling centers that will counsel pastors wives for free, and Stanford very discounted. So God will provide and I would just say Don’t, don’t mess around, get some help. Yeah, good.

Kristen Wetherell
Thank you. That’s good. And so it seems like you know, based on what you’ve said, we have, obviously an openness before the Lord, we come to him first and foremost. And then Lord willing, we have at least someone that we can talk to, you know, and we might call this confession, you know, could be confessing sin, it could be confessing something really particular, right, that we have done, committed thought said, desired. But it could just be also a confession of our own weakness and a place that we’re in to talk about this as honest and open relationship before the Lord and before His people. So can you talk a little bit about what biblical confession looks like? Because I think we have you know, that has its own stereotypes and it’s great. What it is.

Joanna Kubiak
Well, confessing is saying the truth about the issue and sometimes like I shared before that Right that was involved in, in the situation I had gone through. And things sense, of course, we can be blinded, and we can be slow to or even say I have no one, I can confess or talk this, when we do, we just don’t want to humble ourselves to put ourselves in that kind of position, where we can let fear keep us from speaking the truth to someone. But again, I just, we’ve got to have a place, you know, and I love the the virtual groups, the virtual 27 groups that I’m involved in, we meet once a month, and that’s a great place where it’s safe, where you know, you can’t, it’s a great place to start. Some of us are hesitant to be open with our lives, we’re guarded, and some of us share too much, you know, maybe we can vary and we need to, to know ourselves. And you know, maybe I need to hold back and go slow and sharing, until I find someone I know I can share with. Or some of us need to step up and be vulnerable and learn to share. But again, I just say if you have no one, start with a biblical counselor, pray, seek and look for someone and share with your husband, you know, share that those confession times. They’re, they’re powerful, even in a marriage, you know, being there for one another, I’ve asked my husband before to guard me in a certain area, and certain things that I could say yes, or, or, or do that he knows, I know, you know, and I’ve asked him to protect me at times, and he’s asked me to help him with things. We, we need that and as far as opening up with one another. There’s something beautiful about that, when, especially if there’s a sin that we need to confess, or even a weakness, when we bring it to the light, sin loses a big part of its grip on us. You know, when we just say what is where like, all of a sudden, sin just just multiplies in the dark. Satan loves us to have secret stuff going on, you know that? Whatever it may be coping device or whatever. So bring it out, bring it out.

Kristen Wetherell
Yeah, and how would you counsel us because I, you know, I mentioned this in the story earlier, but I wasn’t quite sure how to navigate when it was appropriate to bring something to other believers. And you know, how do we distinguish between? This is something that I like, only tell that trusted person or the Lord, right, sure, sure thing that I could more widely share, because I need prayer. And the more prayer I’ve made, get, the better, you know, how do you distinguish between that?

Joanna Kubiak
Well, first of all, the story you shared, that was perfect thing to share with your group, it was great, because everyone can relate to that it wasn’t the kind of thing that’s going to make someone have a hard time listening to your husband. What I mean by that is I can remember hearing confessions of moral issues, like a pastor or someone shared this person has, and everybody wants to help and be supportive, this person’s trying to do what’s right but struggling a weaker Christian, a weaker Christian woman, I’ve had them come to me and say, I’ve heard about this certain person was in another church, another situation, but you know, I thought it was safe there and this person struggling with morality, or, or maybe it’s abusive, things that are going on there are emotionally abusive, or whatever, don’t make your husband or any other person that maybe it’s apparent or you know, someone look bad to people or where they would have not, you’re, you’re gonna paint yourself to be perfect, no one’s perfect, but where they would have a hard time interacting with that person, that’s not fair to put that on them, you know, but do share, you know, the general specifics, as we say, of, you know, there, there are things that we, you know, we’re working on in our home, there’s things that I’m working on personally, and in general things that we all struggle with share and, and even you know, are working on a consistency in our walk with God, those things, but general things, when it’s something is deep, deep rooted, I would be careful, and I would prefer to go outside of my church, I think it’s only fair to the people there. And it’s just wise in every way. You also get an objective view of counseling. I don’t know if that helps. But those are some of the guidelines. I would go by.

Kari Olson
Well, it does help. I had a situation where, you know, I was getting close with with someone and we weren’t we were friends and all this. And you you almost forget who your husband is to them who you are maybe today and we had been sharing things and talking and we ran into someone an acquaintance and she said, Oh, I want to Meet my pastor’s wife. Like that was the first thing she said wasn’t my friend Carrie, you know. But she said, I want you to meet my pastor’s wife. And it did kind of make me go. Oh, yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, you know, this is kind of her first, the first way that she sees me and I did want to be careful. So finding those a small group, you know, whether it’s a trusted small group in your church, but also I hear what you’re saying is there’s connection and community to be had outside of your church as well. People who know your your you, but know your experience. And that that seems to be very wise. Counsel, I do want to be genuine with my own church. Right? And ways to do that. You’re not saying not to do that?

Joanna Kubiak
No, I’m not at all. I’m just saying that there are certain things that we need to be more general about. in protecting other people, our husbands especially Yeah.

Kari Olson
And confession, our confession as as leaders, you know, of where we’re at. And by that that only encourages other people to search their own hearts and right can rise to absolutely as well. Yeah, absolutely. Well, so we have our pastors, wives are precious pastor’s wives that we want to see. We want to see them walking with God. So what would you say? What encouragement do you have for the pastor’s wife who was serving from an empty cup? Maybe she’s running on fumes? Yeah, maybe she’s coasting on a vibrant spiritual life she had at one time, right? She doesn’t necessarily have that anymore. What hope does she have?

Joanna Kubiak
I love this question. Been there done that I think we all have, right, we go through these seasons that we need to remain faithful through. But this is huge. This is really, really huge. You know, the immediate response is, can’t a vacation, you need a break away, you’re burning out, get a sabbatical, if you can’t, you know, that is the immediate reaction. And you know what, sometimes that is exactly what we need, you know, and when that is what we need, we come back home and we feel refreshed, we feel, you know, maybe not top of the world, but we’re ready to go, you know, we got that break or almost excited even to go forward. And we know that praise God. That’s what we needed. And I I believe pastors and their families need more than one vacation a year. I mean, we really need those getaways. However, when you come back from time away, and you’re dreading it, you’re dreading coming home. We’ve all been there, at least I have a you’re dreading it and the only ray of hope, and light you see is the next break away. And you’re just you just have a cycle, I call it a vicious cycle of band aiding, we’re taking a band aid and we’re slapping it on that wound of exhaustion. And and we’re making it it’s oozing, but the band is holding it, you know, and we’re gonna make it till the next fresh Band Aid gets on and we get another getaway. And it’s no way to live. We can’t do that. So there’s something more going on, we need to find out what is behind that exhaustion. And it could we add some new stuff to dig deep. It could be a lot of different things. It could be things from the past that you haven’t dealt with, it could be be things in your home life, it could be things in your extended family, it could be a certain parishioner at a church and one of the one of the sisters in 21 of the 27 groups has a really difficult parishioner to to know she’s actually going to biblical counseling to learn how to be able to handle that can be draining it to the point where you just it is affecting you with exhaustion. It could be so many different things. It could be a medical condition that you don’t even realize you have that is draining you so we need to dig deep and find what is behind this wound of its jaw exhaustion. And and you know in on my website, sacred wanderings, that community there’s a tab titled help. And under that tab, there’s a few different examples of springboards for different issues and how to dig deep with those with in your own self privately with through worship and prayer and Bible study and maybe checkouts something like that personally. But if you need more help get that more help to determine what is going on. I need a multitude of counselors I would ask people that know me well, I would ask my husband I would ask family extended family. I would ask you know, even a counselor at another ministry Sister, take a look. What do you think is what is going on here? But we can also be exhausted because ministry life is exhausting. At its best, it’s exhausting. And we’re not coping well. You know, and I think we have to take a look at our coping devices and Um, we need them and we are going to be grabbing for something. And we all know that there’s unholy coping devices. I don’t laugh about those these are, you know, really sinful things that we’re fools to say we would never do, because any of us would be, are capable of any sin in the book, but by the grace of God, we to guard ourselves from those evil, immoral movies, things that we shouldn’t be a part of substances that we’re leaning on, all those different evil things. But, you know, I believe that God has given us three holy, I call them Holi, coping gifts, they’re coping devices that are gifts, that he’s good, because he knows how frail we are, we are just human and, and this exhausting ministry, He’s given us three gifts, and he’s modeled them. And and then from those gifts, there are beneficial coping devices that we can use. And I think we need to, to make ourselves can connect ourselves to these, these devices, the holy coping gifts, are wholly coping devices are like I said, there are three, the first and greatest gift that God has given us to cope is himself. He gives us himself, and embedded in himself is his word. But we see this in the life of Jesus. You know, in the book of Luke, there’s be a group of people and they’re, they’re waiting for Jesus to get up in the morning so he can minister to them. And the disciples are looking everywhere, where is he? He’s out along with the Father. And he’s spending time with he’s he’s coping with the stresses of ministry, by the gift of the Father by the gift of himself. And he comes back and he says, Hey, we’re going somewhere else. I’m like, Wait, there’s all these because he’d spent time with the Father. And he knew, the father told him how to cope, what to do next, and that gift of himself what more can we want or need or have, and we can take it for granted when life is tough, and I need a coping device reach for Jesus time. And then the second gift he gives us is nature. I believe that, well, nature is so meaningful to my husband and I are just kidding out. We did 30 years of Urban Ministry and there is beauty even in the urban jungle, wherever God has you. You God can connect you with His creation, there’s something what and the really great thing about this is you can include your kids with it, especially if you have young children. You can go out in nature to gather you take a nature walk together, you spend time just out there, and you all come back refreshed. You can’t even put your finger on it but feel better. And that’s a gift from God. It’s a gift from God. And the third gift is he gives us each other stuff like we are doing right now. This is a gift of for coping. It is 27 gatherings, our coping devices, they’re wonderful. They’re a investment in your own spiritual health. But find other ministry couples you can connect with and, and godly people in your own congregation, spend time with the body of Christ. It Nobody has that extra time, but you need to make it. It’s it’s part of our gift for coping with the exhausting, exhausting aspects of ministry. And then. And then lastly, there are beneficial coping devices, these are things you know, we like hobbies and all the different ways we can express the creativity that reflects our creative God. But we I just say a caution here, we we can’t get to the point where we are spending so much time in our hobbies, that we are spending too much money where we’re not engaged with our family as we should be, or things like that. There’s boundaries, we need to be careful with those things. But those are also great coping devices. I share from my own experience with some of the there’s wives that you know, if if we fixate too much on the congregation, if we fixate too much, we’re gonna die young, I say, because it’s so much that needs to happen in the church. Just like so much that needs to happen in my own life is a work of the Spirit that takes time. And it’s gonna take too and if we are fixating on it, you know, fixating on, you know, this, this and that these these people in our churches are in process. They’re in a journey. They’re not where they need to be, and neither am I. We’re all in a process. And so we need to have these, these diversions. Great, bless it diversions to keep us from fixating too much and it’s really awesome. When a diversion is also kind of a win win thing. One of the things that was a diversion for my husband when we were downtown for quite a few years. It was He was super involved in the LSC at the church at Marquette school. He was super involved with things and he was also a testimony for our church and he was able to connect with community and so It was a diversion, but it was also a ministry and God can provide that even for us as women in different ways. So yeah, I would say, see if you’re coping, if you’re coping well, and if you’re band aiding those wounds of exhaustion.

Kristen Wetherell
So good. I’ve heard it. I’ve heard it said that. it’s wise for us to find rhythms. Yes. Right. Because it’s, you know, we can use the word balance. But I’ve also heard it said that there’s no such thing as balance because there are just too many things to balance. Right?

Joanna Kubiak
That’s right. I agree.

Kristen Wetherell
It’s priorities, and then it’s rhythm. So what are the rhythms that we are establishing, you know, in our homes with our husbands? Both within the church and outside of the church? To embrace these beautiful gracious coping devices? Yes, you have a nice, you know, right. That’s so helpful. Joanna, we are so grateful for you. I mean, everyone, this is just a just a taste of the ministry that God has given to Johanna, you’re such a gift. Thank you.

Joanna Kubiak
Thank you. You guys are such a blessing to me. You don’t know. You know, that’s one of our gifts each other right? To hang in there to persevere to flourish and to walk with God. Yes, yes. Right.

Kristen Wetherell
Yeah. So please, we encourage you to check out 27 pastors, wives gatherings. And look into that Juliana mentioned that there are in person gatherings, there are online digital options, as well. And it’s just a wonderful means of grace to still a way to connect with one another and to help us work closely with God. So Joanna, thank you for your time today. Thank

Joanna Kubiak
Thank you. It’s been a blessing, guys.

I look forward to seeing you Sunday.

Kari Olson
Definitely. Yes.

Kristen Wetherell
Thanks.

Kari Olson
Thanks, Joanna. Kristin, I am so thankful for Joanna and that just the, the way she described that first question that we asked her what are some characteristics of a person who’s walking with God? And you know, she didn’t give a list she didn’t throw at you know, like, make sure this make sure you do this, make sure you do that. But she really described a person she described her grandmother and the the faithful life she saw her grandmother lead. And I loved that description of that comfy chair and the tattered Bible, and the way that she made, drew out the comfy chairs like this longing to be with the Lord in His presence. And the tattered Bible is a learning from him. So you have both the heart and the head and you’re you’re there in a relationship with him just longing and learning. To pulled out such beautiful scripture, you know, Psalm 27, Psalm 63, Psalm 73. Want to be a woman who is longing to be with the Lord and then walk in with him on this highs and lows and the spiritual journey with him. I’m thankful for the way that she just poetically described walking with God.

Kristen Wetherell
Yeah. Yeah. And that’s, that’s really something that Joanna has done so well. That I think you and I have benefited from in these pastors wives gatherings. Is her she has this ability to ask searching questions that really the Bible is asking us, but just praising them in such a way that you really hear them freshly. Like she asked What did she ask today? What makes us think that we’re okay? That’s really searching. I remember she wants asked us Where am I walking by sight and calling it faith? Hmm. And so I yeah, I’m gonna go to that tab on her website and look at those questions because I think that those are really helpful as we walk with God. Sometimes we just need prompts. And we need our mind kind of triggered in a fresh way, you know, in our hearts moved in a fresh way. By that we’re so thankful for her

Kari Olson
We do. I’m so thankful for her and thankful for this conversation to our sisters listening. Who are you have a front row seat. God sees you. He sees you and He loves you. And he wants to work closely with you. Hope this blessed you today. Thanks for being here.