Why Ministry Partners Are Better than Instagram Friends

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Melissa Kruger
I’m Melissa Kruger. I work for the gospel coalition, and I’m really happy all of you’re here. So it’s so great to get to be here with you guys. Good.

Ruth Chou Simons
I’m Ruth Chou Simons. I’m an artist, author and founder of gracelace.com I live in western Colorado. I’m a mama to six boys and an actual friends with all these ladies.

Courtney Doctor
So I’m Courtney doctor. I’m the director of women’s initiatives at the gospel coalition, and I live in North Georgia, now, just south of Chattanooga, Tennessee. But I look out on this room, and I not only have my parents here and daughter in laws here, I have real life friends from different stages, church friends, and it is a joy to be here and to think about these friendships and the way they’ve impacted me and formed me, and to have them in the room. So it’s really fun,

Ann Voskamp
isn’t it fun? So good. My name is Ann Voskamp. My husband and I live on a farm outside of Ontario Canada, outside of Toronto, Ontario Canada, we have the joy of two daughter in laws in the room here. Our first grandson is our first grandbaby is in the room. And we got to road trip down with the two daughter in laws and their sisters and their mom and their mom’s best friend. So I got, I got the joy of friendship all the way down here, and I didn’t know. I didn’t know when my sons married such beautiful daughters that I would get the friendship with their mothers, which has been such a gift and a grace.

Melissa Kruger
That’s so that’s such a great way you get the bonus friends. You’ve said that as well. We’re waiting. Yeah, yeah, well, I want to start with this question, Courtney. I’m going to direct it to you to begin with. So when we talk about ministry partners, what do we even mean by that? What is kind of true of gospel centered friendship that might be different than the way the world thinks of friendship?

Courtney Doctor
Yeah, it’s, it’s finding that person and those people that you have that shared missional perspective on how you live your life. And so when you find those people, and you can do the whole gamut, you know, you can do the fun, you can do the serious. I mean, you know, we, we work together, but we have, you know, a friendship that is, it impacts every part of our lives. So the prayer requests are for our families and for our dogs and for what we’re doing in ministry and but you find those people and you’re living on mission together. It is, you know, whatever bonds you really defines the strength of your relationship. And so when it’s you know, it’s great to have friends that you bond with tennis or pickleball or whatever it is over those are great. But when the gospel is the thing that bonds you together, it is, it is the strongest possible bond you can have with that in that friendship relationship, and it’s so beautiful. And it’s having that friend that’s willing to speak the gospel to you all the time, even the hard things right, to call us out on things and to to encourage us in the right things. And so it’s, it’s living the gospel in the context of those relationships and those friendships.

Ann Voskamp
Well, Ruth, I was just going to say, Do you want to share how you and I first met? Because it was so profound for me.

Ruth Chou Simons
Ruth, it was like, It’s been almost a decade now, right? More it really, oh, my goodness,

Ann Voskamp
I think it’s at least 11, if not, moving to 12 years. Ruth, yeah,

Ruth Chou Simons
it was at a conference where you were speaking, and you had experienced some misrepresentation online, and had just felt very isolated and alone. And so I found you in the hall, and I said, Hey, I want you to know that I read that I see you. I know there’s more to this. And we shared a moment and really talked about how we’re real people. And it’s not just what you see online.

Ann Voskamp
It was really in the first 30 seconds, Ruth, we went

Ruth Chou Simons
30,000 feet deep. We tend to do that right. But you

Ann Voskamp
were, you preached gospel to me the moment I first met you, and I am. I thought I had the message the Lord wanted me to speak at that conference, and I went upstairs to my room and completely rewrote what I was going to share because of what you shared

Courtney Doctor
with me in the whole find those people. Those are the people. Those are the people. And that

Ann Voskamp
was before, that was before you were published, even published in any you were a person that didn’t, wasn’t really online at that point at all, but you had such a profound impact in my life. The Lord’s hand was on you, anointing you, and you spoke deeply into my life. And here we are, how many years later, and you have come and sat at my table, slept at your house, slept at my wife. Exactly, actually, yeah, had my baby, little Shiloh, crawl up onto your lap and share really tender, beautiful moments. So it’s you’re right, Courtney, it’s the people who will speak gospel truth into your life that you’re like, okay, yes, we can be friends, but we are because the gospel is at the center. We move forward differently.

Ruth Chou Simons
We have a definition of friendship at our house. And Mr. Troy Simons likes to say it this way, because, you know, we have six boys. Our oldest is 22 Our youngest is 11, and he likes to repeat this regularly at our house. A good friend or a friend, a true friend is somebody who causes you to love Christ more. And he likes to define it that way so that we don’t get off track, because it’s just so easy to be like are my friends, the people that I like to do things with, or the people who think I am cool or that, you know, there’s just a lot of ways translate that to middle age, 47 year olds, 40 something year old women, like, we have our version of that. Like, What is friendship? Is it just somebody who I can network with? Is it somebody who can get me further? Is it somebody who likes the way I dress and shops at the same places. If we’re defining it that way, then we’re gonna be real fickle about like, oh, is this? Is this quote friendship benefiting me? But if you define it like, okay, a true friend is somebody who causes me to run the race better, to love Jesus more, then you could have lots of acquaintances. You can have shopping buddies. You can have lots and and thankfully, I feel like I could shop and enjoy that with all of

Courtney Doctor
you, because everybody wants to shop with Courtney, you got to stop wearing this, and everything

Ruth Chou Simons
falls apart with gray sliced and book writing, I’m going to be a stylist. I mean, like, that’s my real love language. But, and that’s just a bonus, right? It’s a bonus if you love cooking with somebody or decorating your home with somebody, but if you keep in mind, you got to run this race of life with somebody who and a group of somebody’s who will cause you to love Jesus more. It causes you to be a better friend and to also be more discerning about how to share your life with others and in your spheres of influence. And what

Melissa Kruger
I love about this story is it actually took risk on your part. I mean, it’s scary to go to someone that you maybe don’t know that. Well, we didn’t know each other at all. Yeah, and what you took the risk was to see her, rather than to make assumptions. And I think a lot of times we make assumptions. I might have said, Oh, she’s got enough people. I’m sure someone is saying something encouraging to her. She doesn’t need me, and you took the risk to see her and say, maybe 10 other people are saying this, but I’m gonna say it too.

Ann Voskamp
I think that’s it, Melissa. So many times we think something about someone that could be encouraging and edifying and preach the Gospels, and we think, oh, somebody else is probably saying that to them. As opposed to, can I have a mindset that when I think something good about someone, I tell them and I share it with them, because that’s the Holy Spirit nudging you to speak gospel truth into their life, to build them up in Christ. And you did that Ruth. It was a very brave moment on your part, because you could have thought, Who am I to say anything to her? And you said, I needed to hear gospel truth from your lips, because it actually formed me more like Christ, that what I brought in that conference was really impacted by what you said.

Melissa Kruger
Well, and let me direct this back to you, Anne, so when we’re looking for qualities in Gospel friendship, because you know, if you’re out in the audience, you’re thinking, wow, I’d love some of those friends, and I want us to think about it. It’s really easy to think sometimes about what we want in a friend, but also how we can be that friend. So like, how can we be the friend to someone else? What qualities make gospel centered friendships? As you think back, and we can all answer this, what qualities to look for in a gospel centered friend, and What qualities should we be trying to emulate as we want to be those ministry partners?

Ann Voskamp
I think sometimes when we think about Instagram friends, that can be about wearing a mask to keep up appearances, and I think when we think about ministry partnership friends, that’s about friends that are helping each other put on the armor of Christ so we can keep company with Christ. And I think, I think really it’s about, are people on mission that where they’re really focused, their eyes are on Jesus all of the time, so that the words of the mouth, the meditations of the heart are about pointing other people to Jesus like that really is at the heart of their life. I think, Ruth, you have done that beautifully over and over again. So it’s someone who is mission centered. It’s somebody who’s, I think, real first of all, good ministry partners know that they’re not good, that they actually desperately need Jesus, that every day, that they know that they are in need of more of Jesus. I think real ministry partners don’t go ahead and compare. They champion each other in the causes of Christ. I think real ministry partners are not about. Striving to go higher, but are always they are. It’s about downward mobility. It’s about going lower to the least and the lonely and the lost. And I think real ministry partners aren’t about they’re not about personal veneration. They’re not about they literally are about abiding in the vine so that they are producing true fruit, not duct taped on fruit. And I just, I just really appreciate each of you. I mean, even that Zoom call that we all got on Ruth, you got onto that call, and you just shared very vulnerably where you were at. And I had been reading in Jeremiah something that I had found really profound. Shared it on that call. And then Melissa, you share what happened.

Melissa Kruger
I know so she had shared this verse, and we were all like, oh, we all needed to hear that. I mean, I was coming in just like exhausted and weary. We were all kind of exhausted and weary. And you shared this just such an encouragement to keep pressing on. Well, then the next morning I open daily light. It’s my favorite little devotional. It’s all scripture. And the very verse that Anne had shared with us was the very first verse of daily light the next morning. And so one of the beautiful things you realize in friendship, it’s never just the four of us. The Holy Spirit is there. And so he’s saying, Yep, I’m here too. I’m your real friend, and friendship with me, abiding in the vine, connects you with others in a way that secular friendship never can. You know? I mean, it’s just those moments where you’re like, oh, Jesus is with us.

Ruth Chou Simons
I think about how, if the goal of friendship is that we cross the finish line of this race, and whether your friend needs to, like, have that push, like, you’re like, pushing her over the finish line, or you’re crossing it with your arms, you know, locked, we’re seeing each other through this journey with Jesus. And so perseverance is one of those qualities, is that when we sign up to be friends with one another. We’re not saying it’s just out of convenience. It’s not going to be convenient. I can’t think of one good friendship has ever felt like this is really easy and convenient, and I have to make zero sacrifices, right? I think that’s why, you know Paul says in Philippians, two, three, consider one another more important than yourselves. Like, you can’t do friendship without being like, what is the need of my friend, even if this is not actually fitting my life perfectly, or if I just want everybody to ask about me like I need to ask about somebody else, I need to be there for her. And so I think about when you we could go down the list of so many qualities, but I think one of the qualities we could really like keep our eye on is that we’re trying to if we are actually saying, hey, we want to make friends that cause us to love Jesus more, then we actually have to sign up for the persevering of doing that together, knowing that there are going to be times when that person you’re friends with is not really a good friend, and you have to forgive and you have to reconcile, and you have to work through the aspects of friendship that happen in life that will not be easy and convenient all the time,

Courtney Doctor
just even that idea of perseverance, I remember reading once that it is theologically sound to expect your friends to fail you, and so to be ready on The front end, knowing what your response will be, and that has shaped me in really significant ways, that that’s exactly right, and when I find that in another person that I know that that person is going to bear with, they’re going to persevere with all The ways I fail them, it is a beautiful thing, because that is that is being Christ to someone that is showing them the love of Christ, because he bears with us, and he never leaves us, and he never forsakes us. And so when you find people that do that with you, through all of you know the the weaknesses and faults and vices and everything that we all have, because the more you know somebody, the more you know those things. And so to know that, I have friends that are willing to persevere. And then the other thing I would add is another P I’m alliterating. I love this. I’m like, real time alliterating. I feel like an artist right now. It’s with me. So persevere and presence. I’m just really impressed with myself, right? I mean, I just don’t ever do this.

Ruth Chou Simons
So what patience is another patience keep

Courtney Doctor
going. This is precious. But presence, like the ministry of presence, showing up and just being it makes all the difference in the world. One of my biggest regrets, I have a good friend whose mother passed away, and I did not go to her mother’s funeral, and I regret it so much because, because I believe so strongly in the ministry of presence and being there. So part of that, yeah,

Ann Voskamp
I believe in the ministry of muffins and the casserole. It really is. It was the presence of, I will show up for you in the midst of your valleys. And when I come with, with my casserole, my meatloaf and the muffins, I’m, I’m actually being the hands and feet of heart. Jesus to you. So I do not underestimate the ministry of saying, I’m not gonna I’m not gonna show up just once. But I mean, after my father passed away, one of my friends, Marlene, showed up. She showed up within her five times over the course of that first month. So it’s showing up again and again and again.

Ruth Chou Simons
I think we alluded to this, and we’re making an assumption that this is true, but maybe we should say this out loud, that if we’re going to show up for people, if we’re going to persevere, if we’re going to have presence, I’m like, thinking of all the P words, then we’re actually going to have to be vulnerable and real, right? You can’t really do that and be like every single time I show up, looking and feeling my best, I’m having the best day. No, you show up, even when it’s hard. I think about the ministry of presence when you invite somebody over, or the ministry of casseroles, when you invite somebody over and your house is not clean and your kids are not super well behaved, and you are putting away, you know, three day old laundry, or whatever that is, that is real friendship, right? That’s really so that vulnerability. We like to use the word vulnerability. We like to say, you know, we want to be with a real friend that you can be real raw with. But I think it’s not just about venting, right? Sometimes we’re like, we’re really real with each other, because we just complain, like, you know, that’s not real if you’re not pointing, it’s not really edifying if you’re not pointing and speaking gospel back to one another, but inviting them into the real and inviting them into the messy and the not yet figured out, the answers not yet, I mean, the prayers that are not yet fully answered, inviting one another into that and then speaking gospel in the midst of all that mess is real Friendship and is really, is really a ministry,

Courtney Doctor
and not just the messy house, right? My messy heart, like I’m into my message mind. I mean, you know, the things that I think and the ways that I feel and the ways that like, that’s the mess that I need multiple gospel friends to to be willing to step into,

Melissa Kruger
yeah, well, as we talked about, like, things we’re looking for in friendships and things we hope to be, I think there’s also a real place where we can can, and this is kind of hitting at this expect too much in friendship. And I think, yeah, maybe we’ve all even felt that expectation too much. And I know I’ve had times when I’ve expected too much in friendship. So I don’t know, Ruth, if you can talk to this a little bit like I think there is the reality of loneliness for us all. Yeah.

Ruth Chou Simons
So, you know, I think anytime you find something or somebody disappointing, I mean, I hope I’m not the only one that sometimes feels like they didn’t meet my expectations most of the time, I can trace that pack to an area of my life where I am putting my hope in something or somebody other than Jesus. So I think in this friendship conversation, we have to start with saying, okay, friendship is a gift. We are meant to walk in community. We are meant to walk with others, but friendship was never meant to take the place of the true friend of Christ. So meaning, if you’re sitting here today going, I would be a better believer if I had friends. And what, you know, I can’t. I can’t do this because I have no friends. Well, I would start by saying, you have access to the best friend possible. Start there. Pour out your heart and say, Lord, I would love for you to open up opportunities. And a lot of times I find I don’t know, let me just get real honest here. I think there are times. There have been times in my life where I thought I didn’t have any friends, but I wasn’t really responding to the people right in front of me. Has that ever happened to you? Where you kind of go? Well, I have this ideal in my mind and my expectation of how friendship should look or what it should be like, but the Lord brought somebody, and I’m like, you know, I don’t know. Like, I don’t I don’t know. So I would just say

Courtney Doctor
they were better in theory.

Ruth Chou Simons
I mean, I’m just saying, like, that’s a real, honest picture of how sometimes we don’t even realize how the Lord is, like bringing people into our lives, because we have such, like, idealistic ideas of how things should be. And so I guess the first part of answering that, in like addressing that, is that we all need to do a little bit of self assessing and saying, Hey, have I really turned to Christ for my deepest longings right for that? Because loneliness is real, wanting to be seen and loved and know that you belong. That’s all part of the gift of friendship. But if we don’t turn to Christ first for that belonging, for that value, for that knowing that I matter, then no friendship will ever satisfy nothing will ever. Truly satisfied.

Ann Voskamp
Yeah, I think for me, every time I I feel that loneliness, craving that actually is a light on my dashboard. Say, Oh, I was made for communion, ultimately with Christ. So when I have that craving, it’s like, oh, that’s the Holy Spirit done to me. And come away with me. Open up scripture, spend time with me, pray journal so that ultimately we have a we have a God shaped hole in our hearts that is isn’t going to ever be filled by anybody else. It’s only going to be filled by Christ alone. So using that, first and foremost as my my red warning light on my emotional dashboard Come away with me and and I think sometimes without loneliness. Can also be as an introvert, I can, I can kind of just turtle in my own shell and using, oh, the Lord made me for community. He made me to be part of a body. So if I’m lonely, I’m waiting for someone to come to me. No, I can keep in company with Christ. I can reach out to somebody else. So, opposed to saying, Oh, how come nobody ever sees me, I can get into this pity party in my head. Well, who can I reach out to right now? Who feels on the outside? Who feels Who am I overlooking in my life right now that I could be the ministry of presence. I could be more like Jesus to that person. So using that, that loneliness, also as a as a warning light on my dashboard. Oh, this is Holy Spirit saying. And who can you reach out to right now?

Courtney Doctor
And also looking around and realizing like no one person is going to have all of the characteristics and the attributes, right? We put that weight on someone, and no one person, but to look around and say, Man Lord, thank You for this one friend who has such a gift of encouragement. And thank you for this one friend who models what it looks like to live faithfully in her neighborhood. And thank you for this one friend who really does show up or I get the text from, I mean, it needs to be, and we’ve talked about this a lot, even just the four of us that we don’t want stagnant ponds of friendships. Those are clicks. Those are not healthy. Those become inbred, like we want friends in lots of different places. And you know, I benefit in my friendship with Ruth because of who she’s friends with in, you know, in different places, and same with Melissa. And so we want to have a plurality of friendships and to be grateful for what the Lord’s doing in each of those in each of those friendships.

Melissa Kruger
And I think too, so often when we come and maybe we’re in a season where our friendships are lacking and we are genuinely lonely. I think our natural reaction is to work it up in ourself and say, Okay, I’m gonna go. I’m gonna find these people and start chasing people down, rather than just saying, Lord, I’m lonely. Lord, I really want a gospel friend. I’m gonna sit here and I’m going to just pray and ask you, will you show me, you know who I can reach out to, who I can love, who I can pursue, but will you also just provide? I mean, it’s we need friends, and I think so often we forget to pray for them. We forget to pray that we would have them, that we’d have gospel partners, and that the Lord would provide that for us. And he can, because it’s a good thing to ask for. And we can

Ruth Chou Simons
well, and we all know, and I’m going to butcher it, but we all know that CS Lewis quote about friendship, right? I have actually, you have it right here. Can you do it? Can you? I only know the punchline. I don’t know the actual quote,

Ann Voskamp
true friends don’t spend Is this the one you’re thinking

Ruth Chou Simons
of Earth? It’s not actually. It might be, though, keep going. It might be. The other part, I only know

Ann Voskamp
that true friends, I’ve thought a lot about this, true friends don’t spend time gazing into each other’s eyes. They may show great tenderness towards each other, but they face in the same direction, toward common projects, goals, above all, toward a common Lord. And I think sometimes in friendship, we can stare at each other, sorry I failed for you.

Courtney Doctor
Know that is something I know, like you like like you lose something of that person.

Ruth Chou Simons
You question whether I even know that’s CS Lewis, I know it is. Y’all know what I’m talking about. It’s the line where he says, In friendship is when somebody describes what’s going on, and then they go, you too, right? We know this one. Somebody pull up that quote. Now I feel like I complete that was so eloquent, and you like, literally, just read this beautiful quote. I was like, the whole quote is, you too. But that’s what friendship is, right? That’s what I feel. Is that friendship is when you’re like, Oh, you’re perimenopausal too.

Melissa Kruger
Why are you looking

Ruth Chou Simons
at me? I’m like, Oh, hey,

Melissa Kruger
conversations

Ruth Chou Simons
and rage happened to you too. We’re friends now. Like, I mean, so, so if. If, if the you too, okay, that’s the whole quote, you too, if you too is friendship, then guess what? You actually have to share what’s going on. So I think about how often we’re sitting there and and to to Melissa’s point, we do need to pray. And rather than go out there and be like, how many groups can I sign up for and make a friend? So yes, let’s do pray about it. But sometimes we’re sitting there kind of going, Yeah, I’m so lonely. Why isn’t anybody asking me about me, when really you could go up to somebody and say, Guess what’s going on my life. I’d love to share, because then that’s an opportunity for her to say, you too. You see how that works. And so I just think it’s a, it’s a, it’s a doubling like you. We both pray and sit still and ask the Lord to provide, but we also put ourselves out there and say, I’m going to share enough so that you have an opportunity to you to me, you know, like, actually, like, respond.

Melissa Kruger
So, so we’ve had so many good CS Lewis quotes, because I love the other one that you said about, you know, when he’s talking about friendship, and one of their friends had died in their close community, and he said, I will actually lose something of every other friend, because he said, There’s something I can’t remember the name. So this is going to be Melissa making it up. There’s something that’s lost when Rob is no longer in that community, because I don’t see how you know, Bob lights up when he makes that joke anymore. And so this is the thing. It’s what you were saying. It’s not a stagnant pool. There’s actually more we get out of one another when we have openness in friendships.

Ruth Chou Simons
I can’t believe that it’s an actual CS Lewis quote, because Mr. Troy Simons, actually, I’ve asked him before. I’m like, How come you never struggle with jealousy? Like, how come you don’t seem jealous that you make this friend and that friend is now really good friends with so and so. Like, Mark really likes Paul, and they were your friends first. And he goes, Oh, babe, it’s actually so cool to be all together, because Mark brings something out in Paul that I wouldn’t get to experience otherwise. And I was like, Oh, I’m going to work on that. That’s awesome, yeah.

Melissa Kruger
So, so moving on from CS Lewis, who’s great. I thought, What about Scripture? What does scripture tell us about friendship, you know. And this was literally a question, so I was like, but like, as we think about the scriptures, how does it even guide us? And, and I had directed this to you, but anyone can answer, how does this, how do the scriptures guide us? On one how to be a good friend and how to look for ministry partners? I don’t know if y’all have any. Yeah, I think, um,

Ann Voskamp
in the Old Testament. I mean, really, I mean, it’s unbelievable. You can see all the way through the Old Testament, God Himself befriends man, which is mind blowing. And God says his character is he has her, said, Love, this loyal, faithful love. But then you see it also in the Old Testament Ruth her has said loving kindness, loyal faithfulness to Naomi, wherever you go, I will go. Your people will be my people. Where you die, I will die. I think when we think about ministry partners, it goes back, really, to what we said about perseverance and endurance. I I have a sad love for you. I have loyal love for you. When something happens between us that has said love means I’m going to believe the best in this situation when you’re going through a trial. I’m not going to be one of those fair weather friends, but I am going to grant lots of grace and lots of space, but I’m also going to be the friend who’s going to be on my face praying for you, and as the Lord gives me scripture, I’m going to send that scripture to you and trust that the Lord is going to use that to use that. I had a friend recently who’s going through a very difficult time, and every morning, while I’m doing my own scripture reading, I am praying and asking, Lord, Lord, is there a verse here in your word that I could send to that friend? And it’s happened in the last month three different times. Oh, she texted back, Anne, the verse that you sent me, someone else sent me the exact same verse this morning, again, evidence of the Holy Spirit moving between friendships. So that has said loving kindness, if it’s actually modeling the friendship that Jesus Himself gives us. That has said loyal, faithful, enduring, steadfast love for someone that that isn’t tossed about by the waves of circumstances and what’s convenient and what isn’t convenient. So I think to really pray, Lord, Who are you calling me to live out a sad loving kindness that I will give witness to I will be like Jesus who gives witness to us, and I will give witness to the God who sees us, Lord, Who are you calling me to be with and show witness to? Because every life needs lifers, people who will stay in the room for life like Jesus stays and loves us when it’s unmerited, when we don’t deserve it, when we have done everything to be that we deserve to be abandoned. Can we be the kind. Friend who doesn’t abandon each other, that have said loving kindness, that truly lives out gospel grace and mercy to each other.

Courtney Doctor
I love that, and not just I think we live in kind of a cultural moment right now where it’s, you know, we’re, we’re almost being called to be each other’s hype girls. And instead, somebody that I discipled for years gave me a little wooden block that I keep on my bookshelf, and it says, you know, it’s Proverbs, Faithful are the wounds of a friend. And I like I believe that because that, that faithful love, that has said love, that steadfast love, it isn’t just hyping someone up. And I don’t, I don’t need I need someone who’s willing to wound me for the greater good, for my sanctification, for for my own growth and spiritual formation and so so being that faithful friend is Being willing to to do even being willing to risk encouragement and being willing to risk speaking truth, when somebody does that for me, I know that is a person I can trust. I know that is a person I can trust, that they will, that that their faithfulness is so for me that they’re willing to risk saying something hard. And I want to be that kind of friend. Everybody’s like, well, I don’t want you to be my friend then, but that’s you know, but I want to be willing to risk it. Well, I think

Ann Voskamp
shame dies when we share our stories in safe places, and when you have a said faithful love to somebody, you are in a safe place, that person’s not going to abandon you. I am here for the long haul. Actually, my daughter, two of our sons, married two sisters, so their mother is my son’s mother in law is twice over. Anyways, Sue, who is here at the gospel coalition conference, Sue has been so faithful to me, to see sometimes, to see beyond the surface, to go, oh, is this a motivation that’s happening in your heart? And will text me say, you know, you don’t have to act out of that at all. I see where you’re going. And her text, it is. It’s about forming me in your cruciform. Those texts can be so sanctifying to me, like, Oh, she sees something in me that I don’t see right now, but she is vulnerable enough and courageous enough and loves me with has said loving kindness enough to speak that into my life to go, oh, I can be surrendered in Christ right now. So it is, it’s that has said loving kindness, the wounds of a friend is such a gift. Like, we don’t want, we don’t want, yes, women in our lives. We want Christ women in our lives to speak truth to us

Ruth Chou Simons
and just, you know, just so that if you’ve been through this. I mean, there are some in this room who have a little PTSD from maybe a friendship that’s gone wrong, and you feel like you put yourself out there and you got kind of drug through, and you feel like your heart got trampled on and, and I think that you know, in a short break out like this, we can address all of that. We’re not going to speak the truth about every single thing except the truth that we do not have to protect ourselves, or be like, Okay, well then, you know, protect ourselves in the sense of like, I can’t trust anybody. I will never I wasn’t made for friendship. I think we have to be discerning, right, discerning and thoughtful and wise about it. But in when we’re talking about how we’re called to that kind of love in Scripture that starts with us trusting Jesus first, right? We trust that the Lord is caring for us, that at the end of the day, even if shame dies in vulnerability, well, it only dies in vulnerability because we trust that Christ shame, right? So the the actual truth is like, you can confess all the things that’s ever happened in your life, and somebody could have hurt you with that information. But if you’re sharing that with somebody who genuinely has died to their sin in Christ as well, then that shame is no longer because you bring it to the table, and you’re like, you won’t believe what I’ve gone through or what I’ve done. And she says, You know what I can because Jesus forgave me of the same, like, maybe not the same circumstances, but I totally know what it means and what it feels like to say I have no shame because of Jesus. And so then you know that you’re really bonded, not because that person is safe, not because that person can keep your secrets, but because Jesus is faithful. And so I think that helps us discern, like, just because somebody comes up to you and says, Oh, I won’t ever tell anybody that’s that’s not safety, that’s like in itself, that’s not why you trust somebody, or if somebody hurt you and they weren’t trustworthy, that it’s not a reason to never trust anybody again. It’s more that we have to say, Okay, how do I look for somebody? Who genuinely knows what it is to be a fallen, broken person who needs the friendship of Christ to to truly put her back together. That’s somebody you can trust with, with vulnerability.

Courtney Doctor
My pastor and I have several women from my church here, and so I would say, first of all, your local church is the place to start. This is, this is where you’re going to find these friends. This is, I mean, that is bar none. Is why we titled it, why ministry partners are better than Instagram friends, because the people that you worship and serve and do life with in your local church, these are the kind of friendships that we’re talking about, but our pastor talks about and I’m going to botch it. And you know, if I need, if you’re here and you want to correct me, you can but that it is the gospel plus safety, plus time, and those three things like that’s what we have to offer people. That’s what that’s how spiritual transformation occurs. That’s how we have this faithful, steadfast love. That’s how we have this perseverance with people so the gospel safety and time and and the Lord does beautiful things when those three things come together.

Melissa Kruger
And just to add to this, I’m always looking for people who are missional and, and I really mean great commission women who know their biggest mission in life is to glorify God and enjoy him forever. And so sometimes I think it can be tempting, and we all have to really look at our own hearts. Are we looking for the friend who’s got the really nice beach house, who and she might take us to the nice beach house? Or, you know, are we looking for the friend? Yeah. I mean, there are people you can be saying, I want to be that person’s friend. And you have to kind of ask yourself, in your heart, why do I want to be that person’s friend? Why? You know, sometimes you feel like, Oh, well, I’ll really arrive when I get with that friend. Well, the most vicious person who might be the best friend to you. You know, she might not look like you look she might, you know, live in a different part of town. She might. I mean, she might be very different than you, but she’s on mission, and she will be on mission with you, and you two will find yourself, I think of some of these people in my life, we find ourselves knee deep in the Bible together, and we’re, you know, one good friend. We wrote this Bible study together, and we were just talking about it each day, and we’re both in it, and we’re never talking about our friendship. We’re talking about the word and getting it to other people. And this good friend in that season of life, she was not in the same season as me. We were in completely different seasons, like completely different stages of life, and she was one of my dearest friends, because we were in the word together, so we could serve the church together. And that missional, it’s going to take you outside of your box. And sometimes that’s going to be a little bit uncomfortable, because it’s really nice to say, Oh, I’m only going to have friends who have toddlers just like me, or I’m only going to have friends who are in the workplace just like me, or I’m only going to have friends who look just like me. Find missional friends who will be with you on mission, because they will spur you on, and you will spur them on and you work together,

Ann Voskamp
which is just that, sorry. CS Lewis, but back to that quote, that real friendship isn’t about us looking at each other. Real friendship is about us looking Pat like out there to the world that needs Jesus as looking to the cross. And that’s not that that transcends demographics, that transcends all the differences between us, because we’re focused on Jesus, and that is what’s fueling us with this passion to share the gospel, hope that we have in Christ, that’s what we have in common

Melissa Kruger
exactly well. And so all of this type of living takes risk. We’ve talked about this a little bit, but Ruth, can you take us even deeper? And how is it risky to let people in, to be vulnerable, to live on mission with people? Because we’ve also, as you even said earlier, we’ve all dealt with harm in friendships like that’s a that’s a reality. So why is it so worth the risk to go into friendships? How can we do that?

Ruth Chou Simons
Well, well, I think we we all learn as we grow and learn, and we’re not going to get it all right. And I think we grow in our friendships when we grow to be a better friend ourselves. I think it always starts with us saying, okay, so that person is taking a risk as well. I’m not the only one risking, and I I certainly can say, you know, in my almost 49 years, I definitely have experienced friendships that that hurt or that didn’t actually persevere for one reason or another. So it’s I think a lot of times we hear this and we go, okay, I want that perfect friendship, but we all know that there’s nothing perfect out there. We are a work in progress. We’re being sanctified day by day. Each one of us can say, I. I would have done that situation a little differently. I would have made a different choice there, or I would have said something different. And so first of all, I think it’s really helpful to even begin any relationship by acknowledging that you’re a work in progress and that you want a good friend, you desire a good friend, but that you’re still learning how to be a good friend. I think that that is, you know, a good practice for us all. But I also think that just in general, I think whether you’re thinking about ministry partners truly as friendships or even ministry partnerships, right? I mean, I think in every case, we need to think through about how we can be discerning as we go slow. I like the phrase go slow doesn’t mean that you don’t take a big risk, or you don’t like just go up to somebody and say, can you go to coffee? I just mean that we don’t need to be in such a rush for results and things. We don’t need to be so quick to be like, Oh, this is a good friendship, or this is a bad friendship, because you’ve had two weeks of experiences. Remember that life is a process where there’s so much that is that is being worked out day by day, and so going slow means that you can invite each other into conversations that are hard to have, like social media is like one, you know, 10 word comment that’s not really going deeper and going slower, choose to not have the most important conversations online, where it’s snippy and quick. Choose to have conversations that matter around your dinner table go slow enough that maybe a conversation has to happen after you walk a mile, like a literal mile on a walk with somebody that takes time, right? It’s not what happens on social media, in a chat group in a Facebook group. That’s not not that you can’t make a real friend, but true friendships happen when you take the time and you go slower, because that risk doesn’t feel so dramatic. It’s like you’re risking little by little, day by day, as you get to know one another.

Courtney Doctor
And I’m sure we’ve all experienced that feeling of you risked and then you feel like you just left it on the table, and that is an awful feeling, like, Why did I do that? Right? It is, and we all feel it. I mean, that’s and I think that that’s the great equalizer in friendships. One of my favorite leadership quotes is that leadership is learning to disappoint people at a rate they can absorb, and it’s true, but I think friendship might be the same thing. So the taking it slow, letting people absorb their disappointment in me at a rate they can absorb is probably a healthy a healthy thing, because the reality is, the more we know each other, the more we actually are going to disappoint each other. I mean, it just is we fail each other back to what I started with. We we hurt each other, but that perseverance and that sticking with it, and that being willing to risk and the only way back to what Ruth was saying. The only way we can risk it is if we remind ourselves every day, where our identity is. We are so safe in Christ. We are so safe in Christ. He knows the mess like he knows the mess, and he’s not going anywhere. And so I can just remind myself when I leave a conversation and I’m like, I’m like, Oh, I really, ooh, that felt kind of risky. I disappointed them at a rate they couldn’t absorb. You know, it’s a I remind myself, you know what? I mean, we were voxing this morning about, like, Okay. I mean, what’s the worst? You know, we stand up in front of a couple people and say stupid things. That’s okay. I mean, you love me on Monday, like, you know,

Melissa Kruger
it’s not like two people,

Courtney Doctor
Courtney, I know, but it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter

Ann Voskamp
because we’re staying on that cross. I mean, this is what we’re telling this

Unknown Speaker
morning, right? Like, you can risk

Ann Voskamp
these things. And I think, um, I think sometimes if someone has risked, or I’ve risked, and it’s maybe gone south in some ways, and you feel wounded, or they feel wounded, I know I’m sitting in the wrong seat at the table. If I’m sitting in a place of judgment, I need to always be oh no, no. I need to be in the seat of mercy. I need all the mercy and grace from Jesus thus I can extend all kinds of grace and mercy to someone else who has disappointed me and failed me because they’re not Jesus. Could you point

Speaker 1
out Ruth, when you talk. But

Ann Voskamp
I just think if I, if I am judging a friend who’s let me down in some ways, I’m in the wrong seat I need to move to. I need the mercy from Jesus, so I moved to that mercy seat that I can extend the mercy that I have received at the foot of the cross.

Melissa Kruger
And I think this is a really good point, because we’ve talked a lot about good gospel friends will correct you. It’s one thing to come with a sledgehammer, and it’s another thing you know when you used to get a splinter when you were a child, I can remember my dad coming to get a splinter out, and he brought a match, and that. Scared me a lot, and I realized, Oh, he’s gonna burn the needle. And I’m thinking, it’s no hot, yeah, but he was so tender. You know, he would tenderly see that splinter. And you know what? My dad wasn’t doing it to wound me. He was doing it because he knew I had something under my skin that would get infected and harm my whole body. And so he tenderly for me would come and get my splinter out. It’s another thing to have people who come at you with a sledgehammer, and it’s really about them being right, and them shoving you down. Okay, so let’s be clear when we all talk about this, that’s that seat of judgment. They put you their judge and jury over you that’s not love. They may claim it’s love, but love comes at you with the needle and says, I love you enough to say this isn’t good for you, what you’re doing, how you’re living. It’s never going to lead to your flourishing. And that’s a gospel friend, and that’s what we’re all looking for in this life as someone who is tender with us. I love that. We’ll go to Tim Keller quotes, how about that? I love the Tim It’s actually a marriage quote. It’s my favorite in his meaning of marriage, but I think it applies to friendship. He talked about seeing someone’s What did he say their glory self when you get to heaven? And he said that when he was, you know, again, I’m not quoting, well, what he what, what he couldn’t wait was to get to heaven one day, and he was going to see Kathy in her glory self and look at her and say, I always knew you could be like that. And, you know that’s what we’re looking for, is someone who looks at you and me and said, I always knew you could be like that. And that’s what we’re looking for in friendship. And we are at the end of our time, so I’m going to actually end us there, but go out into the world, see other people’s glory self, and look for people who will see yours. Thanks for being here.