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John Onwuchekwa: Hebrews 6. It’s tricky.
Jonathan Leeman: It’s a tough passage.
John Onwuchekwa: It seems like it’s saying-
Jonathan Leeman: Maybe.
John Onwuchekwa: … that you could-
Jonathan Leeman: Someone.
John Onwuchekwa: … lose your… That there was someone who was in-
Jonathan Leeman: Yeah.
John Onwuchekwa: … and now they’re not.
Jonathan Leeman: Well, I was just looking at the text. Let me just read it. It is verses four to six. For it is impossible, it is impossible-
John Onwuchekwa: Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman: … in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come…
Jonathan Leeman: Okay, so let’s just pause.
John Onwuchekwa: Right.
Jonathan Leeman: Some of that language is almost regenerate language, right? That’s what is tough. You’ve tasted the heavenly gift, you’ve shared in the Holy Spirit. Okay. All of these things. Powers of the age to come. That’s Holy Spirit power, right? And then, fallen away-
John Onwuchekwa: Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman: … to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying, once again, the Son of God to their own harm and holding Him up to contempt.
Jonathan Leeman: So, I can understand why people would read that and say, “Yeah. You can have the Holy Spirit and lose it.” You think of Saul, for instance.
John Onwuchekwa: Right.
Jonathan Leeman: Right? He has the Holy Spirit in some sense. He’s not regenerate, but the Holy Spirit is kind of present with Saul and then he loses it. And so, if you think of David, in Psalm 51, who says, “Take not your Holy Spirit from me.” And we’re all thinking-
John Onwuchekwa: So, he’s scared of losing it.
Jonathan Leeman: That’s right. Like Saul-
John Onwuchekwa: Right.
Jonathan Leeman: … lost it. Can that happen to the Christian? Well, my understanding, brother, is that when you were born again, you’re born again.
John Onwuchekwa: Absolutely.
Jonathan Leeman: You’re a new creation.
John Onwuchekwa: Yep.
Jonathan Leeman: And you can’t lose that.
John Onwuchekwa: Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman: So, I understand the language here to be phenomenological.
John Onwuchekwa: Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman: Fancy, the phenomena. The fancy way of saying you’re experiencing life inside the church.
John Onwuchekwa: Right?
Jonathan Leeman: You’re experiencing the fruit of the Spirit and all the people around you. Maybe you are even… You’re-
John Onwuchekwa: Maybe even the power flows through you and some sense?
Jonathan Leeman: You’re more patient than you typically were in the past.
John Onwuchekwa: Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Jonathan Leeman: And there’s a sense of conviction. So, yeah. I think a person is inside the church experiencing those things. But no, I don’t think a person who’s born again can not be born again.
John Onwuchekwa: Right. Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman: Agree? Disagree?
John Onwuchekwa: I agree. And I think when I read this, it’s helpful for me to remember this comes in the context of other warning-
Jonathan Leeman: There’s several.
John Onwuchekwa: Yeah. So, it’s provocative language that’s aimed to really warn, right? We don’t want folks to think that there’s a false concern. And I think this is aimed at…
John Onwuchekwa: So, I think the best picture that I could think of is maybe a Judas, who-
John Onwuchekwa: ... he was in. He taste so close that none of the 12 even thought that it would be him. It seemed like, when Christ sent them all out to cast out demons, that he was part of the fold. I mean, Matthew 7, Christ says, on that day, there’s going to be folks that come with Him and say, “Didn’t we cast out demons in Your name?” That seems like power starting to flow through it. And yet, it seemed like he was the soil that tasted of the rain-
Jonathan Leeman: Yeah. That’s right.
John Onwuchekwa: … that tasted of the seed and it sprouted up, but there was no root. So, yeah. It wasn’t really-
Jonathan Leeman: It perished.
John Onwuchekwa: Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman: Or I think of 1 John 2:19. They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have had remained with us.
John Onwuchekwa: Right.
Jonathan Leeman: Now, I don’t want to impose 1 John 2 on… What are we on? Hebrews 6. But I want to read it in light of 1 John. And the way Tom Schreiner described it, and I remember this from my seminary days, is that… You just used the word warning.
John Onwuchekwa: Right.
Jonathan Leeman: He said, “It’s a warning sign.”
John Onwuchekwa: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jonathan Leeman: You’re driving down the road. You see the sign that says, “Bridge out ahead.”
John Onwuchekwa: Right?
Jonathan Leeman: And if you’re paying attention-
John Onwuchekwa: Right.
Jonathan Leeman: … you heed the sign and you don’t go down that road.
John Onwuchekwa: Right. Right. Right.
Jonathan Leeman: Whereas, if you’re not paying attention, you go down the road.
John Onwuchekwa: You just keep going.
Jonathan Leeman: And so I think those warning signs are there for us in scripture. And those who are truly God’s will see that warning sign and they’ll turn away.
John Onwuchekwa: And take heed.
Jonathan Leeman: That’s right. And those who are not God’s won’t take heed.
John Onwuchekwa: Right. Jonathan Leeman: But at the end of history, on judgment day, I think The Righteous One will point back and say, “Look. I gave you the warning sign.”
John Onwuchekwa: I agree.
Jonathan Leeman: “You missed it.”
John Onwuchekwa: Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman: So…
John Onwuchekwa: Amen.
Jonathan Leeman: Thanks, brother.
John Onwuchekwa: Yeah.
With the rate of pastors retiring, burning out, or concluding their ministries, the need has never been more urgent for aspiring ministry leaders to prepare well for their pastoral calling.
