Let’s Talk: How to Spot and Let Go of Shame

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Jasmine Holmes
Shame isolates, and repentance restores. So back to Adam and Eve, repentance of their guilt would have been we hear God walking in the garden and we’re like, God help us. Hell, I we did, we ate the fruit. And now we look down and I were naked, and I don’t do what do we do? Like what do we do to be made right? And then when God asks, What did you do? Adam was not like, well, it was this woman. And he’s not like it was the serpent. It’s like, no, it was me. And I’m trapped, and I need you. And whatever the consequences, it’s better than the alternative. That’s what shame does. It drives us to hide?

Jackie Hill Perry
Hey, y’all, and welcome to Let’s Talk a podcast from the gospel coalition Podcast Network where we seek to apply biblical wisdom to everyday life. My name is Jackie Hill Perry, and I am here with my buddies, aka my buckles, Melissa Kruger, and Jasmine Holmes. Melissa, what are we going to talk about today?

Melissa Kruger
Today, we are going to be talking about shame, which I think is something that we all experience at some level. But it’s also complicated. And so I think the place we can start is kind of how do we distinguish between shame and guilt? Because the Bible talks about both it does a lot, actually, quite a lot. I mean, the whole sacrificial system, in some sense is built around the concept of there’s guilt out there, right? So how do we look at the difference between shame and guilt?

Jasmine Holmes
I think that the most important thing is to start at the beginning. So where we’re shame and guilt both born, and that’s the garden, Adam and Eve sinned, God told them not to do something, they did it. And the thing about guilt is that you don’t have to feel guilt in order to be guilty of something like, like, even if you’re a sociopath, and you go on an ax murdering spree, your guilt is not determined by how bad you feel about what you did. It’s determined by the fact that what you did is against the law. Yeah. And so Adam and Eve, sinned, they went against the law of God. But that sin came with a feeling of shame and a feeling of needing to cover up their nakedness before God. And so at first Adam and Eve were like naked and unashamed in the garden, living their married life, in a cheese frolicking doing their thing. And as soon as they said something about that nakedness became corrupted in their eyes, and they could no longer bear to be exposed before God. Yeah, and I think that’s the difference between guilt is when you you’ve done something wrong, but you don’t have to actually do anything wrong in order to feel like you want to hide or to feel unworthy or to feel lesser than

Jackie Hill Perry
I heard a birdie, somewhere maybe in the sky or via Twitter or Instagram. That said that Jasmine Holmes is actually writing a book on this topic. Therefore, all questions will most likely be directed towards you. But with that, I mean, my thought is what would make you want to be curious or study a topic such as shame like, is it shame that drove you to write about shame?

Jasmine Holmes
Yes, it is like a life defining following presence in my life is shame. And it’s so interesting. I think I talk about therapy. Every season, I saw this funny meme that was like, our parents generation is like whispering like I went to therapy. And like, our duration is like my therapist said the wisest thing the other day. But that’s D it is true. Think just as being an oldest child, being a pastor’s child growing up in super conservative circles growing up as a woman growing up as a black woman. There are just so many layers that had to do with shame in my life. And so I originally went to therapy because I had had a miscarriage before I had my firstborn. When and so I was pregnant when I was 18 weeks pregnant, and I filled out an intake form at my midwife, and it was like, you know, on a scale of one to 10, do you feel afraid? Or do you do not sleep? Well, do you and all my feelings were 10s. But I was like, I want I don’t want them to think I’m crazy. So I put sixes and sevens. And they came to them, and they were like, Hey, so sixes and sevens are really high. Did I really thought I was like, downplaying it. And so they suggested I go to therapy. And I was like, Yeah, I think I’m here. I’m here because of fear of losing my baby. And we started talking about my life and started like, start at the beginning. And she was like, I think you’re here because you really struggle with shame, actually. And I was like, no way but it just was this common thread of my motivation for doing things was so often that feeling of unworthiness and trying to cover it up. So the analogy that I always use is, is it comes from Genesis. It’s like I was trying to cover myself up think lease interesting before God could get a look at me.

Melissa Kruger
And I’ve heard the difference described as guilt being behavior, like I did something bad. And shame being identity. I am bad. Yep. And so I think our words, and in that, I’m not trying to ask how you grew up, I think sometimes in the church, we our words, can say you are bad. Yeah, like it. Okay. So if you get caught cheating on a test, it’s one thing to say, Jasmine, I’m so disappointed that you chose to cheat on this test today, right? It is a different thing to come to our child and be like, You are a cheater, who are you? And I am your identity. And I am embarrassed by you. I mean, like, there’s a lot of ways one says, you chose at this moment to do something wrong. Right? That’s guilt. Right? The other is, you can never be anything other than, and that’s a weight to bear. And it makes you as a parent really think through what am I communicating? Or even just as a friend or roommate, like if, you know, I call my friend out on something and say, you you are this versus, hey, that behavior isn’t actually who you are. Right? Yeah.

Jackie Hill Perry
I have a question with that. Because as y’all are talking, I’m thinking through our discipleship, language, and even our preaching, and how do you, I guess, communicate our sinful nature as right, as described in the scriptures, while at the same time not imposing shame? Or is there some kind of fruitfulness that can’t like is it is are there times where shame is necessary? I’m not I’m not saying yes or no, I’m saying to say that you are a sinner, is to talk about who you are, right? In order to interpret that as Sure.

Jasmine Holmes
Because I think for me, like, I’d never got past that, like you’re a load on rotten, dirty sinner. And that’s just what you are. Forget the fact that Christ died on the cross, and that there’s no condemnation in him and that Isaiah literally says that he buried our shame did away with our shame, I’m still going to talk about myself. Like, I haven’t had such substitutionary atonement, I was so good to talk about myself, like, there was no propitiation for my sin. And I think that’s kind of like, you know, from a Calvinist he kind of background it can be really easy to kind of get into that language. But I do think that when we talk about shame, when we’re talking about believers versus non believers, we’re having a different conversation.

Jasmine Holmes
Because shame, we need shame for society to operate well, because if you’re not ashamed of anything bad that you do, and you don’t have the Holy Spirit, and you don’t have a conscience, and you don’t have common grace, pretty rough, it’s rough. It’s rough. It’s like the purge out there. So like, we need shade. Before believer, I truly believe that shame is a subpar motivation for righteousness. Because its base level, it’s the base level, I don’t want to feel bad, so I’m not going to do bad things. Versus I’m a new creature in Christ. And so when I do do bad things, that’s a sign of the old man that’s been crucified daily. By God’s grace, that’s not who I am, who I am is hidden in Christ. So shame, a temptation. For me, definitely.

Melissa Kruger
Jasmine one thing I was thinking when you were talking, Paul, and all of his letters is always writing to sinners. But he always says greetings saints have, and we know they’re not perfect. Like he goes through the reasons why they’re not perfect. All the reasons like he’s always going on about something. And I do think there is this sense as a Christian you know, God has removed our shame and clothed us with garments of salvation. And it’s that Genesis is picking up on that language like you had robes that were blood. Yeah, I mean, awful, full of sin. Yeah, full of awfulness. And I’ve closed you and robes of righteousness, so you don’t bear shame anymore. And I think when we live in, that is who I am. These behaviors are me living outside of it, right? That’s right repentance for guilt. And I think that’s very different than walking around saying, I’m this I’m because then you’re never going to change, right? Like actually saying no, at a moment in time. I did X, Y, or Z. But that doesn’t define me. And I think it’s important for all of us, like, we’re not defined by you know, if someone had an abortion, you’re not defined by that you’re not a woman who had an abortion. You’re not done. Find by I killed someone by drunk driving. You’re not defined by that. That was a moment that you made a bad decision. But it’s really different than okay. I can be forgiven and I can walk a newness of life. Yeah. And that’s freedom.

Jasmine Holmes
And that’s what shame takes away because shame, isolates, and repentance restores. So back to Adam and Eve, repentance of their guilt would have been we hear God walking in the garden, and we’re like, God, help us. Hell. I we did, we ate the fruit. And now we looked down, and I were naked, and I don’t do what what do we do? Like, what do we do to be made? Right? And then when God asks, What did you do, Adam was not like, well, it was this woman. And he’s not like it was the serpent. It’s like, no, it was me. And I’m trapped, and I need you. And whatever the consequences, it’s better than the alternative. That’s what shame does, it drives us to hide and also it drives us to cover ourselves in subpar attempts, like Adam and Eve, covered themselves with fake leaves. And if you think about, like, the long term impact of covering yourself with fake leaves, it takes a stiff breeze, and then those fake leaves are like, they’re gone, it’s not gonna protect you from the elements, it’s not gonna protect you from, it’s not going to really hide anything, it’s not going to. And then God comes and sacrifices and covers them with something that is going to protect them from the elements is going to hide their nakedness, it’s going to, you know, be sufficient for them. And so again, shame is also taking an insufficient method of it’s not even conviction, really, because it’s not exchanged is not connected to guilt, independence and restoration. It’s connected to hiding, and not ever getting past that to the next to the next step.

Jackie Hill Perry
The more I learned about myself, the more I’m discovering that many of I guess a lot of the ways that I see myself or the false image that I’ve constructed of myself, which is you know, you’re strong, you’re not weak, you’re smart, you’re not stupid, you’re able to do it or not do a little, like all of those can. A lot of it. I think, for a long time, I was like, oh, either it’s just, this is true. And this is me, or this is pride, therefore, I just have to humble myself. But now I’m saying that pride also has layers, which is, instead of going and being hidden, and God I’m being I’m hiding behind my gifts, I’m hiding behind my ability to succeed and all these things. And I guess the question is, I think that’s everybody. And we go through life doing that and being applauded for our fig leaves, right? Yes. And so how does one discover or even discern that this even exists? Like, how do you know that you’re living in shame if you don’t see it?

Jasmine Holmes
I mean, I had to have some of the like I said, I had to have somebody pointed out to me, that I was just constantly on this. I use that analogy and identity that’s constantly on the hamster wheel. And then the hamster wheel keeps going. And then I like trip, and I’m just like, rolling around. And I’m unable to get back up. But something I was talking to Phillip yesterday. I’m not a very competitive person to a false, like, when I was playing sports, they’d be like, Man, we’re losing. And I’m like, you know, you win some you lose some. Kicker, I’d be like, yeah, they would, they would I would get off the bench. And they’d be like, Oh, your comes Jasmine. She’s not she’s not gonna rush because it’s halfway through the game. And she’s tired. I’m like, I’m not about to break a sweat for y’all like with. Yeah, it was, you know, it was it wasn’t great. But because I’m not that competitive. I’m not always like, my, my shame really manifests itself and I just give up.

Jasmine Holmes
So it’s like, I just can’t, I can’t keep up. So I’m just going to give up. As opposed to the person who’s like, I’m gonna be on that hamster wheel. I’m in a rut. No, I’m that fat hamster in the corner of the wheel that’s just getting run around, like over and over and over again, because I’m just like, I’m not going to be able to measure up. And so I think identifying, identifying how Shane manifests itself for maybe our different personality types, and then to I also think that different types of people have varying degrees of struggling with shame. And it’s also important, culturally, to point out that in the east, the concept of shame is completely different than it is in the West. So when we talk about shame, like in this episode, we’re talking about it as three American women who experience it in our very Western way. Because we don’t live in a shame, honor culture. Yeah. So there’s a way that we talk about shame and there’s a vocabulary and definitions that we have that culturally doesn’t translate translate to the east

Melissa Kruger
Well, I mean we live in a culture where everyone gets a trophy, right? Even. We really do. We want everyone from the best player on the team, to the worst player on the team should feel good about themselves. So, and that’s not, that’s not all bad, you know, but we were very different than a culture that says, No, only the best move forward. And you have to be the best. I don’t think I mean, some families are like that. It’s not absent from our culture. But I don’t think it’s our pervading cultural mindset.

Jasmine Holmes
And it’s not like when you do something wrong, it’s like dishonor on your entire family. Yes, yes,

Jackie Hill Perry
I actually listen to this sermon by mentioning Tim Keller again. But it was about Jesus’s miracle of turning the water into wine. And he pointed out, or he made a very interesting observation, which was that when people see that miracle, which was the first of Jesus’s miracles, they just kind of spend a lot of time on the fact that he may water into wine, not realizing that also, in a shame, honor culture, it was shameful to run out of wine. And so not only is Jesus providing more joy for for the guests, but He’s removing the shame. On that couple. I was like, wow, like, I never thought about it. But it’s like, Oh, that is what he came to do. Yeah, only to restore our joy, but to remove our shame.

Jasmine Holmes
I just I wish somebody had told me when I was younger, that the crippling shame that I live with day in and day out, did not have to be a reality for somebody who has bought with the blood of Jesus. Because I just my, my first memories are like the strongest memories that I have of my early childhood, others feelings of like, shame, not belonging, being, being ashamed of myself being humiliated, wanting to hide wanting to, and have been saved for a really long time for somebody not to say, Hey, do you know that Jesus came to remove that thing that you’re feeling? I wish they did.

Melissa Kruger
So how do we as the church make that worse? Do you I’m saying because, like, you grew up in the church, was that adding to your shame in some ways, when we we would hope it would remove it, you know, with the truths? What causes that in the church, because we should be the most free people alive? You know, I actually understand why the non Christian even though I mean, because the law so written on their hearts, so there should be some level of why am I this way? I do what I don’t want to do, right, we all have experienced that non Christian and Christian alike. But we hopefully should be bringing up children and people who convert in this shame free culture, almost, maybe not. Maybe there should be. That’s a different question. But what can the church do better to remind each other, that our guilt has been pardoned? And we’re free from shame.

Jasmine Holmes
I think it’s an overreaction to our culture. Because like a lot of our culture is all about being shameless. And just like being who you are being unashamed and just being out there. I recently read Untamed by Glennon Doyle, because I just wanted to kind of see like, what’s, you know, what are some people saying about shame? Like, how are they talking about shame. And her memoir is very much like I was able to get rid of shame by basically just giving into the things that I wanted to do and being who I was. And that’s how, that’s my story. And so, as a believer, when you start saying things like breaking free of shame, people are like, Wow, no about that. That sounds less sounds like you want license to sin.

Jasmine Holmes
That sounds like you want, you know, it sounds like you don’t want to be convicted and sounds like because I think it’s because we don’t have those delineations between shame and guilt, condemnation and conviction. Yeah. And when we talk about shame, we talk about it as though it’s the exact same for somebody who’s bought with a butter Christ and somebody who is not a believer. And so there’s just a lot of groundwork that has to take place, even when every single time I talk about shame, I have to first say, Okay, what I’m not saying is that we never feel guilty because guilt is different from shame, but I’m not saying is that we never feel convicted because conviction is different from how many you know, and it just it takes a lot of Yeah, clarification and it would

Melissa Kruger
even be okay to say that we should feel remorse first. Right. I mean, like, I think that’s remorse feels different than shame. Yeah, remorse says, Oh, I did something God didn’t want me to do. And I know that’s the bad choice. Shame. Still, though, is this wait,

Jasmine Holmes
It’s also very, like self focused. It’s like I am terrible. Woe is me. I’m going to stare at my navel until I just implode. I feel so bad. It’s it’s it’s a. I was talking to Jackie before we started recording because it’s so connected to God’s holiness, but it’s like a wrong reaction to God’s holiness for a believer because honestly, if you stand before a holy God, shame it’s like The emotion that’s gonna come up. It’s gonna happen. He’s Isaiah six, perfect. What was me? I’m a man of unclean lips, like it and the people I hang with, yeah, like, look at him Look at you. Right. But the thing about it for a believer is that he’s not looking at you, you, he’s looking at you through the sacrifice of His Son Jesus. And so the the goal of like, removing shame from the life of a believer isn’t like, so I can just be free and just like, do what I want to do and not be hampered the goal is closer and deeper relationship with Christ. Who is the answer to all of our shame? Who is the answer to the sin that causes shame? Who is the answer to the unworthiness, the cause of shame, and who connects us to the Holy God that we no longer have to? I’m not gonna say fear, but be afraid of as believers, because fear can take countless different connotations.

Jackie Hill Perry
I have a question for Melissa. I think as a parent, I, I think I am prone to and I think many people are prone to to motivate your children to write ethical living through shame. You know, like, I don’t know, just stop going that that’s a bad thing to do. You’re being a bad boy, etc, etc. I guess how, with you raising your children, how have you learned how to motivate them to good works, without shaming them for not doing it perfectly?

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, no, I think that’s a great question. And this is where I think language really does matter. I mean, some of this is a little bit of what we were talking about earlier, like when I call them out on something and say, Hey, you made a mess. That’s very different than you’re a bad boy. Mm hmm. Very different, like you right now made a mess. And that’s just true. Right? You did make a mess. And also, you know, I think it’s always a really big deal, that their actions get a right response from me. So it should be, hey, I think it’s okay to say I am really disappointed that you cheated. That it. I’m really sad that you chose to do that.

Melissa Kruger
Let’s talk about how to make it right. Yeah, that’s because what you’re saying now there is actually a pathway right to making it right. So you may need to go confess to your teacher. Yeah, you may need to say, but this is the right way to deal with that gunk that you’re feeling, which is the right kind of guilt for your son, because I think, I think that’s actually encouraging. Oh, I can do something with my guilt. I can take it. So we are actually image bearing for them. What do you do with this thing called sin? And we’re gonna send to them. So we’re gonna play opportunity? Yeah, I mean, because I would often come to them and say, hey, it was totally wrong of you to hit your sister. Totally wrong. But my reaction was completely wrong, too. And I want to tell you, I’m sorry.

Melissa Kruger
And I shouldn’t have done that. And now you need to tell your sister, you’re sorry for hitting her yo. And so we’re giving them a pathway to deal with guilt, which is a gift, because then it’s done. You know, in some sense, we’ve said this, you know, this is how you relate rightly, but you’re gonna make problems. But do you think that’s really different than there are some really damaging words. And I think as parents, we have to own that. And it really matters how we respond the first initially. So I remember when I was a teenager, I was in a rush to go to my job at belts were I was doing the gift wrapping. I was in a rush. I got my car, and I backed out. And I ran into the garage door. Like it was still shut. You know, this is a, my mom came out and she was like, oh, and then she goes, go ahead and leave. You need to get to work. She understood at that moment. There’s nothing to do. But she didn’t shame me. She didn’t say, well, you’re so stupid. How could you know? I mean, that’s actually a big deal that I talked to my kids the other day, I said, What in our parenting Did you appreciate?

Melissa Kruger
I was just trying to ask some questions for something I’m working on. And one of them said, your first reaction was gracious. Like, I think we need to always remember to keep the relationship with our kids. It’s not about the spilled milk. It’s not about even the bigger things, you know, they got drunk and had a party at the house, you know, all that. It’s always important that we remember, we’re in a relationship, whereas there’s some sense. I think we attach our shame to them. And so when your behavior now represents me, I’m going to put a lot more shame on you because I am now associating you with me preach this word, you know, and that’s when we get in trouble. I mean, that’s when we get in trouble. Whereas when I can say freely, I’m gonna love you no matter what you do. I’m going to love you and chase you with my love. Every day amount that’s a gospel home, wow, we can still say it was wrong. But I’m gonna chase you down, I’m gonna chase you down because I love you so much. And that’s, that’s what God does to us.

Jackie Hill Perry
That’s amazing. And I think what you just said is huge, because in me kind of speaking to parents often about sexuality, I see that where the pressure to, quote unquote evangelize, or hope that their child would not, you know, live out a differing sexual identity than they prefer, it often seems as if the pressure they’re putting on their children is to alleviate the embarrassment they feel as parents. And that’s just an interesting thing, I think to investigate, which is do you really want your child to be whole? Or do you just want to look like a perfect parent? Yeah. Yeah. And that’s a completely different discussion. Yeah. You know,

Melissa Kruger
and it will affect how we parent? Well, because when we say, No, I love God’s law. And I know it’s life for you. That’s why I want it for you. So different than it being about me. And that’s, I think, the hardest job as parents pull that away and say, No, you know, I want this for you. Like, I want good things for you. Like to obey God. Like, that’s why I want my kids to obey God, because I’m like, He’s the Creator and Maker of you and me. And so I don’t know what’s best. I’m a finite human, but I’m choosing to believe this word. And so I want it for you not to prove I’m a good parent. But because I trust in Him. And I think this is an interesting thing. I read this verse. It’s Psalm 25. Two. And this was an interesting thing.

Melissa Kruger
He said, Oh, God, and you I trust, let me not be put to shame. Let not my enemies exalt over me. And I do think in this culture we live in today, there is a sense, where trusting and God can put us to shame, like believing the things from the culture, you know, believing the things we believe that this book says, is not culturally accepted. And I do think there’s this kind of cry that culture shames what Christians believe, like, we’re now the bad guys. In some sense, I think, you know, like what we believe can be seen as hateful, or how do we fight that cultural shame? Without putting shame back? Does that make sense? Like, how do we engage it? But yet trust in the Lord, like, I trust that His ways are true, even when the world thinks I’m crazy? Because that’s where I feel some days. I don’t know if y’all feel this, but like, how do I walk in that trust, but still be gracious to people who are putting me to shame so to speak?

Jackie Hill Perry
That’s such a necessary question. Because as Jasmine was saying earlier, shame makes you hide. Therefore, I think when engaging the culture, teaching an offensive gospel message makes you want to hide aka be a coward, right? To just retreat and say, You know what, either I’m not gonna say nothing at all. I’ma just start believing which I believe so you’ll accept me again. Right? But I guess the belief system has to be that what I’m sharing is not bad. Neither am I a bad person for sharing this. I’m actually trying to be a faithful ambassador of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And I know that that comes with a sense of perceived harm. You know, that this, this hurts, and it feels shameful to say, you need to repent. But I have to share for the sake of you being restored back to fellowship with God. And so I don’t know, I guess our perspective on what we’re sharing and who we are as we share it would be helpful.

Jasmine Holmes
And something that I’ve learned in my shame journey, is that you don’t have to accept shame just because somebody is offering it to you. Um, just because somebody thought,

Jackie Hill Perry
I know we on this podcast was supposed to be quiet. I just wanted to take off my moccasin and throw it at your faces.

Jasmine Holmes
I think I was talking to Philip. I was like, you know, they’re just shaming me. And he was like, okay, that doesn’t have to teach this thing like that doesn’t have to define you that doesn’t have to. It’s really all about like, where’s our identity? Is it in what other people say about us? Or is it in Christ? Because if it’s in Christ, he says, there’s no condemnation in him. But if we’re not actively believing that then we’re going to actually believe what the culture says. And we’re gonna let that define that define us and that move us forward to x And even in relationships with people who have tried to shame me for living my life in certain ways, or making certain decisions for my kids or in my marriage or, or what have you. It’s up to me whether I take that in and let that start to define who I am. Or whether I say God helped me to submit even more to what you want for me, so that I’m defined completely by you. But just because somebody is offering it to you doesn’t mean that you have to pick it up.

Jackie Hill Perry
Yeah, I might as well delete Twitter, then. That’s the most shaming. Oh my gosh, lay the world.

Melissa Kruger
I called it the new Athenian

Jasmine Holmes
Yes. Yeah.

Melissa Kruger
I mean, to me, it’s like our new place that we go to watch the people be ripped apart. And the gladiators are there. Yeah. I mean, it feels like it’s a cozy arena. Yes, the Coliseum that’s gonna read us. But it’s the new Coliseum. It’s the place. We want to say we’re so much better, we would never watch people be torn apart. It’s just a different it’s a verbal tearing apart.

Jackie Hill Perry
Which is to say that shame is also entertaining.

Jasmine Holmes
Oh, super irritating to watch people get shamed, especially if you’re not a fan of theirs. Like even people with our last two presidents have both had. They’re up there talking. And they say one thing, but they meant another thing. depending on who’s who you voted for, or like where your allegiance is. People will talk about that verbal slip up for three, four new cycles. Sure. And it’s like, I find myself depending on how I’m feeling about POTUS at the particular moment, being like, and he’s, he’s done.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, lol. Yeah. Right. Our hearts delight and we are part of our shame called Yes.

Jasmine Holmes
For like, if we’re frustrated by somebody for frustrated by people, it’s really easy to want to see them in shame. And then, you know, the whole reality TV culture and just all like, we love to watch people make fools of themselves.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, we’re actually comforted. While I’m not that crazy, in some sense for like, our families that like that family. So it’s, yeah, that’s that’s also

Jasmine Holmes
like, a fig leaf. Because when you stand before God, Pookie and Ray, remember not gonna be just gonna be you.

Melissa Kruger
Exactly. Okay, so I have one question. Or one thought, you know, when you’re in livity, the Livi. Haha Because when you’re in Leviticus, an image I’ve always actually really felt comforted from is that image of the scapegoat. It’s kind of, I mean, obviously, God made us and He knows us. But it’s that image, you know, they put all the sins of the people, and then they send the goat out of the camp. And that’s in Leviticus. And we’re told in Hebrews, you know, the blood of bulls and goats is never able to take away sin. But then we have the beautiful words of John the Baptist, when he says, Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, and it’s this wonderful picture of our guilt does need a place to go.

Melissa Kruger
And I think this is the beauty of what we have to offer the non Christian and I think sometimes that does get lost. You know, they’re so busy, like when you’re talking about the book, untamed, trying to cover their shame by saying there is no guilt. Right? And that’s a that’s the way they’re dealing with it. Yeah, if there is no guilt, you can never have shame. But I have to believe that’s gonna not go well. Eventually. Yeah, yeah. Whereas we’re actually saying that there is real guilt. But we have a remedy for shame. Yeah, but is there any room in the Christian culture for shame? Or should it just be? Yeah, does that make sense? Like, is there any space for it? Like, should we ever or is it just remorse?

Jasmine Holmes
I mean, we’re gonna feel it. Yeah, you can’t get rid of shame. It’s gonna be there. Like it’s been there since the garden. So I don’t think there’s a Christian that exists that doesn’t feel shame. But what do you do with it? Like, where do you go with it? Do you wallow in it? Do you allow it to define your life? Or do you recognize the fact that Christ took on our shame on the cross, and that to continue to wallow in it and to sell flagellate is to question whether or not his sacrifice for it was enough?

Melissa Kruger
Is that the truth? You talk to yourself? So when you’re feeling you have a miscarriage, and you’re realizing you’re dealing with shame, is that is that what? Yeah. Is that how you find it?

Jasmine Holmes
How can we find Yeah, that is that is how I talked to her. Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, I

Melissa Kruger
like to picture that goat going outside of the camp carrying it, and that is no more

Jackie Hill Perry
and you know what I keep thinking of and I don’t, I don’t really have enough theological depth to expound on this, but I’m merely thinking about how you said in the garden, you know how their nakedness or them noticing their nakedness was a part of them, you know, experiencing shame. But just thinking about the fact that the eternal transcended God condescended took on flesh, live this perfect life and then got on the cross naked. You know, that’s such a shameful Oh, completely excused.

Jasmine Holmes
Yes, you know, and God turned his face away. Yeah, the only thing that can possibly cover us from shame is God. And God actively chose not to cover him from shame. Yeah.

Jackie Hill Perry
And now he close us right? in righteousness.

Jasmine Holmes
So then it’s like when you realize that you’re wallowing in this thing that Jesus has already taken care of. For why?

Melissa Kruger
Well, that makes you want to sing. What a Savior. You know, What’s that song in there?

Jackie Hill Perry
hallelujah. Well, yeah, that’s it. I would need like the little teleprompter to sing.

Melissa Kruger
I know. I can’t sing. So I will not do that.

Jasmine Holmes
I know all the words, and I’m a really great singer, but I don’t want to pay all the shame.

Melissa Kruger
Thanks. Okay. I have one last question. How culturally I was thinking about this, when you’re talking about motherhood, do we feel shamed for the wrong things? Like I actually what I’m ashamed about is that my shame is not often on biblical guilt. But on not living up to worldly standard guilts like, I’m not the mom, I should be absolutely I don’t look the bulk of shame. Okay, in my life. Interesting. Like, yeah, it’s not about I’ve Dishonored God. Maybe I do feel ashamed about

Jackie Hill Perry
My house hasn’t been cleaned for 3 days. Right. Right.

Melissa Kruger
So we actually feel shame about the wrong things.

Jasmine Holmes
Well, they got to me, they felt shame about the wrong thing. They weren’t like we disobeyed God. That’s true. That’s what the problem is. They were like, Oh, my gosh, we’re naked. We need to hide. Where is it? You need some clothes And God’s like, law broken. But you’re naked. Okay. That’s what you’re worried about

Melissa Kruger
We are just like them? Yeah.

Jasmine Holmes
We’re totally just like, because a lot of us I think a lot of whenever you talk about shaming people like, well, how will we know what to do what’s right? It’s like, Do you know how, how little our shame is connected to actually doing wrong, like biblically wrong things and how much it’s related to fitting in with our culture, and like our own pride and our own sense of self. Like when you’re talking about the shame that comes from just being a sinner who sins that’s like a little bitty piece of the pie of the shame that we’re talking about in the West as women.

Melissa Kruger
This is very convicting, I really am feeling I mean, because I’m thinking about it. I feel very little shame that I didn’t pray for a friend well enough. But I can feel a lot of shame that my child I don’t think has eaten a vegetable in like, a couple of weeks. Yeah. I mean, like, and, you know, cuz I’m, like, I’m a failure. And that is, that’s, and we should feel that conviction. It’s really imposed. Yeah, yeah. So it’s even good for us to kind of weighed through is my shame. Even based on real guilt, or perceived guilt for not living up to cultural standards.

Jasmine Holmes
And usually, like, so often, it’s the latter, especially for women.

Melissa Kruger
Maybe it’s a way we hide from actually having to deal with not living up to God’s standards.

Jackie Hill Perry
Part of me also thinks we just got to get older. Because I do think this isn’t like a I think this is consistent throughout every single human being that reaches 70. But it just seems like the older people get the less those kinds of culturally and MPU imposed feelings of shame even matter. Yeah, my my mama, she’s 65 and she just got to be out here living her life. That’s not to say that she doesn’t have shame. It’s just she’s free in a way that this is like, oh, it’s because you know, you’re older you got time to be caring about your wrinkles. Yep, yeah. Yeah, they do. You’re free to shame the mess out of 15 months, you have potty trained by 12 months while you’re chatting potty training. Like because I’m not you, mom. So yeah, definitely. older generation and they start turning around and be like, judgmental. I love her though. But she that’s true. So nevermind. Disregard

Melissa Kruger
Well on that because it is true. I think maybe there’s a side when our shame is not dealt dealt with correctly. We’re going to shame others. You know, we’re going to go on and whatever it will be even if we ever comment then we’ll be judgmental about other people who have ever come in ashame. Yeah. Rather than when we say nope, it was placed on Jesus. There’s freedom for me. Let me just tell you about the freedom right.

Jasmine Holmes
Let me invite you into this to freedom, not freedom, not licentiousness. Yes. But like actual freedom in Christ, right?

Melissa Kruger
That’s right. And that’s the beauty. That’s what we’re going for. And all these discussions. Well, let’s move to our favorite things. So if we were going to go and get a coffee order, what would be your favorite coffee order that we’d be putting in?

Jackie Hill Perry
Depending on what kind of shop where if we’re because there are some coffee institutions where they don’t have barista they have crew members. I won’t say their names. And so you know, they just don’t really care about your your milk to espresso ratio is just you know, we got to get the order out. So those people I don’t trust the lattes, cappuccinos, macchiatos. None of that just gone ahead. Just give me a brew look coffee with decided milk. But if I’m at a place where they know what they’re doing, I’ll most likely get a latte with almond milk. Maybe iced. If I’m feeling Xinyi I’ll get a cold brew black. That’s it, but you can’t trust everybody with a cobra. Cuz it just, it’s special.

Melissa Kruger
Do you make it at home? Oh, no. Okay, I buy it. That’s what I did. Because I heard you drinking it.

Jackie Hill Perry
I have a cold brew maker. I just legit maybe it’s the pregnancy. I don’t feel like it. Like I would rather get it make y’all make it for me.

Melissa Kruger
What about You, Jasmine?

Jasmine Holmes
So I don’t drink coffee and the degree to which I don’t drink coffee can be adequately summed up by my Starbucks order. Which which is an upside down here on my Kiato huh. That’s still coffee. It’s like means nothing though. Nice to have like an actual barista, like break down like what? Why is it upside down? What is it a macchiato? Yeah, is it actually do do I just want I just want caramel and whipped cream at the bottom my drink. Like, like that. That’s what this really is. So normally, I’m going to get tea. I’m gonna get like a lemon fog, or chai? Chai tea. It’s um, it’s like earl grey with usually almond milk. It’s good.

Melissa Kruger
Oh, I heard of it. Well, I would want if I’m actually at a coffee place, you know, I would probably get some sort of mocha. That’s the favorite. It’s actually at the RTS coffee store. That’s my favorite place to get a mocha. It’s really, really good. But I’m actually a tea drinker too. But I have to have it the British way because that’s where I started drinking with milk. A little bit of sugar and black tea. That’s like my favorite. That’s my morning drink. That’s how we all get woken up in the morning. Sound sweet? Yeah.

Jackie Hill Perry
Gotta get some crumpets for Jasmine.

Jasmine Holmes
Phil got those Biscoff cookies yesterday. We got delta Yeah. So delta is not doing them anymore. They are. They’d like stops. Philip is very upset about it.

Jackie Hill Perry
They are. I was just wondering like two days ago, we were on a flight yesterday. The difference? Okay, I think I think they are offering them for different classes. Oh, that’s what it is. So I told my friend, if you request it, I think they’ll get it.