“Judgmental” is a negative descriptor today, even though our culture holds some values so deeply that it “cancels” anyone who disregards them. And while cancel culture can bring great harm, its existence points to the fact that not all judgment is bad. Jasmine Holmes says, “Even in our culture that is not a largely Christian culture, we understand that to judge is to protect. We want to make a judgment about people who are putting others in danger. We want to make a judgment about people who are victimizing others.”
In this episode of Let’s Talk, Jasmine Holmes, Jackie Hill Perry, and Melissa Kruger discuss the confusion around a biblical view of judgment. They consider questions of when it’s wrong (and right) to judge others, and how easy it is to make right judgments with the wrong attitude. They talk about the difference in judging those inside the church and out. Ultimately, the gospel and our own need for grace must inform how and why we judge other people.
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Transcript
The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
Jackie Hill Perry: Hey everybody, welcome to Let’s Talk, a podcast from The Gospel Coalition Podcast Network, where we seek to apply biblical wisdom to everyday life. My name is Jackie Hill Perry, and I am here with your faves, Jasmine Holmes, and Melissa Kruger. We’re now halfway through season two, yippee, clap it up, clap it up, clap it up. There’s no claps. Okay.
Jasmine Holmes: Woo.
Jackie Hill Perry: We hope you have enjoyed listening to these conversations so far. If there’s one that’s been particularly helpful to you, we’d love for you to find us on TGC social media pages and let us know. But today, we’re going to be talking about a biblical view of judging. When is it right to judge others, and when is it wrong? Because I know some of y’all are judgmental, and that’s a judgment, but it might be a right one. Hello, because I said some, not all.
Jasmine Holmes: True, that’s right.
Jackie Hill Perry: I gave a partial estimation of your character instead of … Anyway, in Matthew 7, in particular, verses one through two, Jesus said this, He said, “Judge, not that you be not judged, for with the judgment you pronounce, you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. That’s a tongue twister. But then, okay, in 1 Corinthians 5:12, Paul tells the Corinthians that they should be judging those inside the church. How do we then understand the tension of these two verses? Because Jesus is saying, “Hey judge, not lest ye be judged.” That’s the King James version that I grew up on. Then Paul, he says, “No, judge.” What do with that theologians?
Jasmine Holmes: I am not a very practice tried and true theologian at any seminary, or anything like that.
Jackie Hill Perry: I thought you did-
Jasmine Holmes: I didn’t finish, yo.
Jackie Hill Perry: But you’ve been.
Jasmine Holmes: I’ve been.
Jackie Hill Perry: You went.
Jasmine Holmes: I did go.
Jackie Hill Perry: See.
Jasmine Holmes: I did, but I didn’t finish.
Jackie Hill Perry: It doesn’t matter.
Jasmine Holmes: That’s points against me.
Jackie Hill Perry: It’s okay.
Jasmine Holmes: But I do know that we’re supposed to read the Bible in context.
Jackie Hill Perry: Oh, that’s good.
Jasmine Holmes: I don’t know much.
Jackie Hill Perry: Where did you learn that?
Jasmine Holmes: But I know that.
Jackie Hill Perry: Okay.
Jasmine Holmes: We should definitely turn to Matthew 7:1-2 and read it in context, because there’s more. Jesus says more than just don’t judge.
Jackie Hill Perry: What does He say, Melissa?
Melissa Kruger: He goes on to say, “Why do you see the spec?” He’s just said, don’t judge, but then He says, “Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, “Let me take the speck out of your eye,” when there’s a log in your own eye? You hypocrite. First, take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.”
Jasmine Holmes: But isn’t he contradicting himself? Because he just said not to judge? Why is he saying, take this back out of your brother’s eye?
Melissa Kruger: Yeah, and calling him a hypocrite all at the same time.
Jasmine Holmes: Wow. Even in that two verses that we just read, it says, “Judge not that you not be judged, for with the judgment you pronounce, you will be judged with the measure that you use. It will be measured to you.” That seems to me to be a warning to use the right measure to judge others so that when it comes time for you to be judged, you’re receiving the same grace that you extend to other people. The measure that I want to use to judge other people is the measure that I want people to use to judge me, which is the word of God. I want to be judged according to the word of God, because I know that according to the word of God, I will be found righteous when judged because of Jesus. That’s the judgment that I needed to using with other people.
Jackie Hill Perry: Would you say that contextually, He’s condemning hypocritical judgment?
Melissa Kruger: Absolutely. This is like someone saying, hey, Jasmine, what you said to me about Jackie earlier when she was in the bathroom, that was a little gossipy, when I’ve just been gossiping with Jackie all about you when you were upstairs.
Jasmine Holmes: What did you say about me?
Melissa Kruger: I know. I know.
Jackie Hill Perry: We said we like your hair.
Jasmine Holmes: Oh, thanks.
Jackie Hill Perry: That was a good judgment.
Jasmine Holmes: Thanks guys.
Melissa Kruger: But you know, it’s like, when you condemn someone for the exact same behavior you’re doing, and maybe you’re even doing it to a worst degree, I mean, sometimes I think it’s true we see the sin we’re struggling with in others very clearly.
Jasmine Holmes: Yeah. Like in my children. Oh my goodness. My son, my oldest is me, like redone, and he’ll do things that drive me crazy. The things that drive me the craziest are the things that I look at him and I’m like, “Oh, aren’t you just a little mirror showing me my struggles, showing me my sins? Those are the ones that I’m tempted to be hardest on, the ones that I have the least patience for.
Melissa Kruger: Oh yeah, I remember my children used to have tantrums and they would be laid out on the floor, kicking and screaming, and I would be rolling my eyes thinking, oh, they are so discontent, and then I would spend some time in prayer, and it was like, the Lord would be like, remember that image of that child’s out on the floor wanting and crying because they didn’t get the toy they wanted? Well, that was actually given to you as a life example of what you look like most of the time. It’s like, oh, but I mean, I think with our kids, actually, we can sometimes judge them pretty harshly.
Like, you are three years old and you should be perfectly righteous and Holy by now, and how dare you not be that way? But then, when it comes to me, I expect Jesus to take a lot of patients and a lot of time.
Jasmine Holmes: Yeah. I think just keeping in mind that our duty to … Because what does it mean to judge? I guess, is the question that we should be asking.
Melissa Kruger: That’s a good question.
Jackie Hill Perry: I looked it up on the dictionary. I didn’t look it in the concordance. I don’t know if it’s correct biblically, but basically, to form an opinion or a conclusion about a thing. I think one simple way to understand judgment is, whatever you put on today, you made a judgment or a decision about that clothing choice that made you put it on. I like this shirt better than that shirt, or this shirt will keep me warm, or this shirt will keep me cool. You had two different, or three different, or 15, depending on how you spend your money, or if you’re a minimalist or whatever, and you made a decision and a choice, and you move forward with it.
That tells us, obviously that all judgment isn’t bad. Because I think sometimes, I remember growing up in a context, which probably is everybody in high school, middle school, whatever. Anytime somebody has something to say, maybe about like your sin, it was, don’t judge me. Only God can judge me. You know what I’m saying? We just grew up thinking, oh, all judgment is wrong, when it’s like, no, you decided between almond milk and soy. That was a judgment too.
Jasmine Holmes: Yeah, and that’s set in a society where people are very judgmental.
Jackie Hill Perry: Oh yeah. We all have a lot of things.
Melissa Kruger: We shouldn’t tweet that.
Jasmine Holmes: Yeah, don’t tweet that, don’t say that, or just even like-
Melissa Kruger: The tweet is so judgmental, is actually a judgment tweet.
Jasmine Holmes: Yes.
Jackie Hill Perry: It is. You made a judgment about my judgment.
Jasmine Holmes: Right, you just made a judgment about my judgment. I am a stereotypical millennial and that I have Tik-Tok on my phone.
Jackie Hill Perry: Of course, you do.
Jasmine Holmes: I do. I just …
Jackie Hill Perry: You should be banned.
Jasmine Holmes: I should be banned. Sorry that I’m letting China have my information right now, but I like paths, and then there’ll be all these like political videos of these little teeny … They’re like 18, 19, and I’m like, y’all are so young. Oh my goodness. You should think about this issue this way. You should think about that issue that way, and you don’t, then you don’t care about people. If you don’t, then you think you’re better than everybody else. If you don’t … There’s all of these, like I scroll and there’s so many ultimate statements that get said about what is right, what our thought process should be, who we should be voting for, who we should be advocating for.
I think, even in our culture, that is not a largely Christian culture, we understand that to judge is to protect. We want to make a judgment about people who are putting others in danger. We want to make a judgment about people who are victimizing others. We would never look at Adolf Hitler and be like, man, we shouldn’t judge him.
Melissa Kruger: That’s right.
Jasmine Holmes: I think we’re inconsistent because … Go ahead.
Jackie Hill Perry: Do you think that cancel culture is rooted in judgmentalism?
Melissa Kruger: Absolutely.
Jackie Hill Perry: I think so.
Melissa Kruger: Absolutely. I think it’s just a new form of the mob. Mob mentality, take somebody down, and it’s just a new form.
Jasmine Holmes: Everybody’s guilty of it.
Melissa Kruger: I think that is probably a lot of what’s being talked about in Matthew. By your own standard, you’re judging this person’s tweet as it should have never been said, and you’re going to one day be judged by that same standard. Someday, if you’re taking away everybody’s freedom to say anything, one day somebody is going to come after you too.
Jasmine Holmes: Which is forever. It’s a moving target. If the word of God isn’t your standard for judging, who can keep up with what’s okay, what’s not okay? I think a lot of people, when we talk about, for instance, if we talk about race and justice, I’ve had some of my white brothers and sister just be like, I don’t want to say anything because everything that I say is the wrong thing. I’m like, that’s because you’re focusing on the wrong. You’re focusing on what you say. I’m talking about the heart behind what you said.
We need to be worried about the heart, we need to be worried about the scripture, because if you’re constantly just trying to adjust behavior without understanding the core thing, you’re just going to be running around with it like a chicken with your head cut off, and you can never please every single person. You have to only be focused on pleasing God. Otherwise, it’s just, I can’t possibly live up to all of these different levels of expectation and judgment.
Melissa Kruger: Well, because cultural standards change.
Jackie Hill Perry: All the time.
Melissa Kruger: Therefore, there’s a new cultural standard every week. Whereas, if I’m making my judgments by this standard, they should pass the test of time because it’s written by an eternal God, who created the universe, and He actually knows how it works, whereas what anybody else in the world tells me, we’re all prisoners to our culture in some sense. So, if I’m judging you by a cultural norm, I’m always going to come up short in light of history, but definitely in light of eternity.
Jackie Hill Perry: That’s why it’s crazy to, if we are judging by a cultural norm, to treat it like an absolute is not fair, seeing that it’s something that shifts and changes according to the year, the decade, whoever’s in political power, the musicians, the artists, the movies, the directors. It’s just craziness. I think one of the most problematic things about a negative, or bad, or hypocritical judgmentalism is, I guess the authoritative nature of it.
Even with cancel culture, it’s like, you are wrong, you deserve to be sentenced and banished out of pop culture forever for what I think is wrong. I get it. Some people do need to be held accountable, but it’s just the way we go about it shows that we’ve determined the standard by which you are canceled. But when does that pendulum swing back to us? When will we be canceled for whatever we do that we thought was a good thing.
Jasmine Holmes: I mean, you have been canceled.
Jackie Hill Perry: A few times. Yeah.
Jasmine Holmes: Yeah, and I’ve been canceled too.
Jackie Hill Perry: Oh, you got canceled.
Jasmine Holmes: Uh-huh (affirmative).
Jackie Hill Perry: What’d you get canceled for?
Jasmine Holmes: I’m not homeschooling, I got canceled for that. I got canceled for writing a book about race and justice.
Jackie Hill Perry: Yeah, that’s true.
Jasmine Holmes: Yeah. What else? Presbyterian, got canceled for that. Let me think.
Jackie Hill Perry: Oh Melissa, you didn’t get canceled. Look at you. Society applauds, it approves.
Jasmine Holmes: Look at you over there.
Melissa Kruger: I don’t have enough followers to get canceled.
Jackie Hill Perry: No.
Jasmine Holmes: That doesn’t have anything to do with it.
Jackie Hill Perry: You just got to do something to rub somebody the wrong way.
Jasmine Holmes: And then you just get canceled. I’ve had some people [crosstalk].
Jackie Hill Perry: And done. We don’t care about anything you ever did up until this point, you’re canceled
Jasmine Holmes: That’s it. I had somebody going around Twitter telling everybody I was a raging feminist. I was like, why? It was literally one thing that I had said one time.
Jackie Hill Perry: You have one tattoo?
Jasmine Holmes: I do. I have nose ring.
Jackie Hill Perry: That makes you a feminist.
Melissa Kruger: Okay. Well, so then my question on it is, if there is a place for right judgment, because sometimes people do say things that are unkind, or wrong, or whatever. How do we know … I know Romans 14 talks about, let no one be your judge in disputable matters. I think that’s what the NIV says. I think the ESB says, let no one be your judge in opinions. How do we actually tell? Because sometimes people take something like what schooling you do for your child, or what food you’re feeding your children, and they can even make it seem like it’s a moral issue.
It can be so heated it becomes, like the fact that Jasmine is not homeschooling her children, she is no longer a good Christian woman. We can almost get to this point of extreme judgment of people on disputable matters. Then, where are the places that we do have to say, hey, what you’re doing right now, it’s not okay. How do we discern what’s a disputable matter and then what is over the line of this is no longer Christian behavior?
Jasmine Holmes: I think the other verse, the Jackie talks about 1 Corinthians 5:12, where Paul says, let me read it.
Melissa Kruger: Yes.
Jasmine Holmes: Do we judging those inside the church? But like, what does he say?
Melissa Kruger: Yeah. This is what he says. It’s 1 Corinthians 9:13. This is a tough passage. When you read it, you’re like, ooh, I’m a little uncomfortable. This is not Instagrammed anywhere that I have seen. “I wrote with you in my letter, not to associate with sexually immoral people, not at all, meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy, or swindlers, or idolaters since then you’d have to go out of the world.” That’s an interesting point.
“But now I’m writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality, or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler, not even to eat with such a one, for what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church who you are to judge? God judges those outside. Purge the evil person among you.” Who’s going to Instagram that one, that last line?
Jasmine Holmes: I know, right? What’s the list he gives again?
Melissa Kruger: Guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler.
Jackie Hill Perry: Well, those are automatically not indisputable because they’re sinful and wicked, and what scripture is calling evil.
Melissa Kruger: Yeah.
Jasmine Holmes: Very clearly.
Jackie Hill Perry: There is no debate.
Jasmine Holmes: These issues are not like, well, your definition of being a swindler is not the same as my definition of being a swindler.
Melissa Kruger: You stole my money.
Jasmine Holmes: You stole like you took it, or your definition of sexual immorality, I’m sorry, sir. This is fornication. Honestly, this is not debatable. That kind of answers your question. If you’re going to … That’s forceful language.
Jackie Hill Perry: It is.
Jasmine Holmes: That’s not just petty, like, hey sister, I’m concerned that you’re not saved because you’re not doing what I want you to do. Are you willing to take somebody and put them under church discipline and throw them out of the church? Because it needs to be that serious.
Jackie Hill Perry: Yeah.
Melissa Kruger: Yeah.
Jackie Hill Perry: I think one of the difficult things with, I guess communicating a non disputable thing to somebody within the church is that, even if it is a correct judgment, the way the judgment is presented or done, or handled is a better word, I think determines how somebody receives it. Because somebody is quick to say, you’re being judgmental, or you’re being self-righteous. So, you’re being this, if how I talk to you about your sexual immorality is just not gentle or kind, or even given with the possibility that they can be wrong.
Because people can assume you’re being sexually immoral, just because of the kind of pants that you wore. That’s a judgment. You actually don’t know. You’re not God in that way.
Jasmine Holmes: I love how Paul puts it in the context of relationship, is in the context of people who are in the body who are in this church that he’s talking to because it wasn’t like, in church in Corinthians, there was some craziness going on.
Melissa Kruger: Yeah.
Jasmine Holmes: So, he knew them well enough to know exactly what’s going on in that church, exactly what kind of … All the things that he addresses in that passage are going on in the church in Corinthians. That’s different than I saw somebody make an Instagram post, and in the background of their Instagram post, I saw a painting on the wall, and now I don’t think they’re saved because of what I saw. Do you know that person? Do you know why it’s there?
There’s just not that relationship there. Not that you have to have relationship in order to rebuke someone, but you do have to have a relationship in order to know if a rebuke is even necessary sometimes.
Jackie Hill Perry: Accurate.
Jasmine Holmes: Right. Because sometimes it’s just, you don’t know enough.
Melissa Kruger: Yeah, and the goal of the review matters. The goal here is remove them so they may wake up and come back. The goal isn’t remove them because they might hurt us. The goal is for their sake. I think for me, one way I know I’m judging is if it’s me above looking down, versus me coming alongside and saying, hey, I love you. I know this is actually really hard for me. Confronting someone to me should be hard.
Jackie Hill Perry: Yeah, I shouldn’t Be excited to call you out.
Melissa Kruger: No. It may be rejected, but at least the person on the can feel loved in the midst of, hey, this is not a judgment that I like you or don’t like you, or anything like that. I don’t think you’re a Christian. If you’re okay with these behaviors, because this is the way of the flesh, and the way the spirit looks like this, and so I’m just concerned that you’re actually not a believer.
Jackie Hill Perry: Yeah. I think what’s pivotal in those kinds of conversations is continually appealing to scripture. Because it can feel, not to keep saying the word judgmental, but it can really feel rude, judgmental, and off-putting for someone to say, “I don’t think you know Jesus.” I’ve often had to say these aren’t my words.
Jasmine Holmes: That’s right.
Jackie Hill Perry: I remember having a conversation with a girl one time who was just an unrepentant sin, no conviction, no confession, just fine with it. I took her to 1 John, and I wanted her to read what 1 John says, when it says like, those who have been born of God cannot continue in sin. I was like, “What do you think that means?” I allowed the word of God to judge her so that she could see, no, God is saying that there is a standard, and God is saying that there are certain fruits that should be born of those who know Him, so that the burden of like this thing isn’t on me, if that makes sense.
Melissa Kruger:
Absolutely.
Jasmine Holmes:
It’s not about me. It’s not about my opinion.
Jackie Hill Perry:
Yeah.
Jasmine Holmes:
I will say, as far as I had … I’m thinking right now about a friend, she likes that conflict. It makes her feel closer to people. She rebuked me. She was like, “I think that you’re flaunting a freedom, and it could cause other people to stumble. I love you, and I respect you. I think you have a long ministry ahead of you. You said this in front of me, I don’t know who else you said it in front of, but …” It was hard, but I did not get the feeling that she was …. She didn’t say it in the moment because we were in front of other people. She waited, she prayed about it for a few days. She called me.
Even though in the end I didn’t 100% agree with her, I could find no fault in the way that she brought it to me. She made a judgment, but it was a spirit led judgment that she was making for my good and for the glory of God. Nobody likes to be told, rebuked, but I felt loved by the rebuke, because it came from a place of sober mindedness, it came from a place of care. Even though we don’t like rebuke, I do think that people who are spirit-filled can receive or rebuke that’s given in love much better than one that’s just, “Jasmine, you said this, and I’m pretty sure now you’re going to hell. I just thought you should know. Okay. Bye.” It wasn’t like that.
Melissa Kruger:
In that instance, it didn’t sound like you felt judged by her per se. I don’t know. Maybe you did.
Jasmine Holmes:
My concept of the word judge is not negative. It’s kind of her job to judge me because we’re both Christians, and judging is just to have an opinion on what I do or don’t do. Do you know what I mean? But I didn’t feel condescended towards, I didn’t feel negatively perceived. It felt like respect that she came to me and told me the thing that was bothering her.
Melissa Kruger:
Because I think there is a way, even in the church, though, we can make people feel judged about the choices they make on spiritual matters. So, it might be what ministry you’re involved in, or how you do that ministry. It’s almost like we suddenly judge one another on things that are clearly debatable about like what neighborhood you choose to live in. Can you do ministry in that neighborhood? Or how many non-Christian friends you have? Or who did you share the gospel with last week? We can make these judgements on one another, and have you ever had that experience where you were in a Christian culture where you felt really judged about disputable matters?
Jackie Hill Perry:
Oh yeah.
Jasmine Holmes:
Yeah.
Jackie Hill Perry:
All the time.
Melissa Kruger:
How did that go?
Jasmine Holmes:
All the time.
Jackie Hill Perry:
It hurt, honestly.
Jasmine Holmes:
It’s exhausting.
Jackie Hill Perry:
Yeah, it hurts, especially when it’s people that are close to you. I think the judgmentalism that hurts me the most are ones that are just a product of a lack of clarity. You made a judgment call that would have been cleared up if you just gave me a call and just asked me, hey, I saw this. Do you might explaining what you meant by that, or when you did that? Those types of things where it just could have been a conversation. Then I think what also hurts is when someone has made a judgment, hasn’t even communicated it, but they start to treat you according to what they’ve judged you as.
That’s just a really difficult thing, and I think going through those experiences has tried, or has helped me to just be so much more, what’s the word? I don’t know. I always try to second guess myself and assume that I don’t know the whole story. I just have to do that because I can be very convinced that I’m right, and it’s like, no, you’re literally not. You don’t have a bird’s eye view or a worm’s eye view to any of this. Yeah.
Jasmine Holmes:
Sometimes I think that when people are judging us for, not essential things, it could be because of their own immaturity and their own burden and their own baggage. I’ve had to look out for that in myself, just because I can’t watch something or listen to something, or being involved in a certain type of conversation doesn’t mean that somebody else can’t. Or just because I’ve arrived at that conclusion for myself and for me and mine, doesn’t mean that, that’s the same conclusion that’s going to be universally arrived upon by everyone who professes the name of Christ. It’s so hard because, and again, that’s so much where relationship has come into my life where I’ve been close enough to somebody to be like, you like that show. Huh, what do you like about it?
Because maybe I am thinking about it in the wrong … I haven’t seen it, so what do you like about it? Let’s have a conversation about it. That’s not to say that we’re going to be on the exact same page when we’re done talking, but at least, I will have tried to understand my sister, and maybe it would have made her think about what she does like about whatever thing I’m having an issue with or whatever she’s wearing, or whatever problematic fill in the blank, or non-problematic.
Jackie Hill Perry:
I have a question for, y’all. I’m naturally a pretty observant person. I can sit back and observe things, and because of it, I can tend to be very right in what I’ve read about people a lot of times.
Jasmine Holmes:
You are. I have experienced. I have had two conversations with Jackie and then she’s told me stuff about myself and I’m like, I don’t even talk … Where’d you come from?
Jackie Hill Perry:
Yeah, I got a eye.
Jasmine Holmes:
She does.
Jackie Hill Perry:
But with that, I have to balance assuming that what I am seeing and observing is Holy Spirit discernment. Is that a challenge that y’all have had to wrestle through? Especially as ministry people, as mature Christians, you could sometimes think that your observations are somehow what the Spirit of God is showing you, which makes you more sure that what you see is actually true, when it might not be.
Jasmine Holmes:
I think I can be lazy because I’m an introvert, and people are energy. I can look at people and just put them into really quick categories as a lazy way of not engaging with people. I can be like, oh, I see that one thing about that person I don’t really like, let me just count that person, that way I don’t have to put energy into that person. Mine is, I assume that it’s not Spirit led because that’s the motivation, it’s to count out people and make my life simpler. I don’t know what it’s like to have discernment about people that’s not just all full of the flesh.
Jackie Hill Perry:
Yeah.
Melissa Kruger:
It’s interesting, as I think about it, when you were talking about those 18 year olds who are so sure, and you were like, vote for this person, or do this or live this-
Jasmine Holmes:
I used to be that kid.
Melissa Kruger:
I know, that’s what I was just thinking. I was like, the older I get, I feel like the more I’m arguing in my head about things. So, I doubt myself and my own judgements a lot more. I’m thankful when I look back that I didn’t actually start blogging until I was 40, because I think about the way I would have said things at like 25 or 26.
Jackie Hill Perry:
It’s true.
Melissa Kruger:
A lot of my opinions haven’t changed that much, about who God is and what God’s word says, but I do think, I’ve sat across the table from enough women crying, I mean about heart-wrenching things, to be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I, of course, still believe you should stay married, you should work hard on your marriage. But I also know that some people’s marriages are really hard. So, the way I’m going to say, yeah, work on your marriage, try to stay married, all those things is going to be hopefully more compassionate, just because I remember, oh, well, there was that friend who was going through this with her husband. It was so painful.
Life has a way of softening our judgment as we’ve walked through things ourselves and with others. It’s not that God’s word changes, but the way we hold it changes. We say, “Hey, I want to make sure you know, this is coming to you in love.” Not in, you’re terrible.
Jasmine Holmes:
Put the hammer down.
Melissa Kruger:
Yeah. Also, this sense of, I am know better than you. I remember when youth leader was saying, I’m a fellow beggar coming in need to bread with you, and that posture, rather than I know what you’re doing wrong, and you need to just get your act … That posture makes someone feel judge, whereas sometimes we do have to rightly say, this is what God says and all of that, but we can do it in a way, I think that’s loving, but it’s hard.
Jackie Hill Perry:
That’s good, because I mean, you’re speaking to judging with humility and wisdom. When I was a new Christian, I was so judgmental. Oh my goodness. Who you voted for, what you ate. Did you do the recommended speed limit? Were you in your word long enough? Oh, you was only in there for 30 minutes. You don’t love God like that. You’re supposed to be with him for a long time. Oh, you’re fasting? You only fast for a day. Jesus fasted 40 days. How dare you? I would go in on people. I think a part of that was, one of my personality traits is that I’m very direct, and I think one of my giftings is a part of that too, to be able to just speak into a space and say the things that people don’t want to say, but I needed time and maturity and discipleship for that to be tempered.
I remember when I was being discipled, my discipler, she was just talking about how observant I was and all that type of stuff. She was like, you see things in people. She said, these things may be true, and many times they are, and she was like, but you’re not seeing them to judge, and you’re not seeing them to feel better about yourself. You’re seeing them so you can pray. That was so good for me to learn, as a new believer, because it taught me that like, whatever it is that I’m discerning or judging about a person, I’m supposed to give that thing to God, and giving it to Him helps me to see if even what I’m seeing is correct, but it also helps me to see if what I’m saying is correct. Now that I’ve given it to God, I can serve you with this information instead of beating you over the head with it, and that’s the difference, which is what love is, I think.
Jasmine Holmes:
Yeah.
Melissa Kruger:
I think that’s so good. I think sometimes, with people in our lives, we love them in that way, but then when it’s someone who’s more far removed, like a public figure, we can more easily judged them and do it very loudly and almost forget their humanness. How do you all see that in culture and how can we, as the church do better and fight against it? This, oh, it’s almost like we look at public figures, and maybe whom we don’t like or who we do like, and we either idolize them if we like them, and they can do no, no wrong, or if we don’t like them, we demonize them at every turn.
But we really do seem sometimes to just forget, this is a real person too, who has real feelings, who may actually read what we say, which is humbling to think about it. And you’re like, oh, wow, that got to you? I didn’t mean it like that, but they’re real people too.
Jasmine Holmes:
I think it’s also really important to remember that public figures have a lot of people talking to them all the time anyway. It’s probably not your place to speak into that person’s life. That person has people in their life who speak into their life. The best example I can think of that is, one of my Facebook friends had posted a picture of her adorable baby, just so cute in a car seat. But I looked at the baby in that car seat, and I was like, there were like 70 comments, and I was like, that baby’s really cute, but I bet 90% of these comments are because the buckle is not on the right place on that baby’s body in that car seat. I knew it, and I clicked the button.
Every comment was like, you really should, you really should, and I’m like, don’t y’all think that she got the message when the first person commented it, and y’all all liked it? Why do you all have to … I don’t think people take into account that you are not the only voice talking to this person. They have hundreds of voices that are constantly seeking to advise, help, tear down, your intentions might even be amazing, but it’s just … I can’t imagine. I think she ended up taking the picture down because it was just like, oh gosh.
Maybe if you know the person well enough to go into their inbox and say something privately, if you know them well enough, privately, if you know them well enough. But I think that we get so caught up in … I don’t want to speak to anybody’s motive. I have to check myself, I will say this, to make sure that I’m not grandstanding instead of actually caring about another person, and I’ll just say that, because I can’t judge anybody else.
Jackie Hill Perry:
Because in a strange way, social media, I don’t think it’s made us more judgmental, I think it’s revealed how judgmental we are. Especially because of being able to just type a comment, or type a tweet feels easier. You can put your judgment out there without feeling embarrassed about it, or half of the stuff people would say, they wouldn’t actually say to you. It’s just a strange place. It’s a strange … When I’ve seen how people have handled Beth Moore, when I’ve seen how people have handled other secular figures. I guess my question would be, what about love is it that we need to tap into that will help us do this better?
Jasmine Holmes:
It has to go both ways because I try to, when people hop into my inbox and say things that annoy me, I try to think the best. Maybe they commented on that picture that I wasn’t wearing a mask, because they literally don’t want me to get sick. I want to do my part and believe the best. Let’s all do our part and believe the best. The burden shouldn’t just be on me.
Jackie Hill Perry:
It’s true.
Jasmine Holmes:
It should be on all of us to believe the best about each other and want the best for each other, and to be able to rejoice with each other, and not get so caught up in the minutia of … Even the baby, I know we want the baby to be safe in his car seat. That girl was just thinking her baby was cute, and she couldn’t wait to share with the world, and y’all were just like, she’s going to die, and the buckle’s not in the right place. It’s like, oh my goodness.
Jackie Hill Perry:
Matthew Henry has a quote that has always stuck with me, which is love hopes the best, even when the worst is on display, and that’s always stuck with me. It’s just like, man, the worst might be evident and real. I’m not being called to be delusional, but I am being called to see that there are many angles to the same picture.
Melissa Kruger:
That’s a beautiful way to look at people.
Jasmine Holmes:
Absolutely.
Melissa Kruger:
I mean, to really hope, love hopes. Hope’s the best, and the willingness to overlook an offense. Also, my big thing with judgment too, is this a pattern of sin in this person’s life, or did they give one tweet that had kind of a bad tone? Like, oh, that’s not normal, maybe she was in a bad mood that day. Maybe she had a rough day. Maybe she was tired. Just like we all snap at our husbands sometimes or snap at our kids, is it our pattern? Does make a difference about how we live our lives and different things like that. If I see you having a continual anger problem towards your child, well, then at some point I probably need to have the conversation versus, oh, she was really mad today, but I know it’s been a rough week. You’re tired or whatever. We can overlook things and be more patient, and I think kind, as we look at people.
Jackie Hill Perry:
Kind, that’s the word. Fruit of the spirit.
Jasmine Holmes:
She goes wrapping it all up in a nice little [crosstalk].
Jackie Hill Perry:
Yeah, she’s great at this.
Jasmine Holmes:
[crosstalk].
Jackie Hill Perry:
I love it.
Melissa Kruger:
Is it kind? Well, and a kindness.
Jackie Hill Perry:
Yes. All right. I just judged you worthy of closing all the time.
Melissa Kruger:
Amen.
Jackie Hill Perry:
After-
Melissa Kruger:
Ooh, there are good judgments.
Jackie Hill Perry:
There are.
Melissa Kruger:
Yeah. Like someone saying you’re discerning, that’s a good judgment. It’s a good looking at you and saying you have the gift of discernment.
Jasmine Holmes:
She does. Yeah.
Melissa Kruger:
[crosstalk].
Jasmine Holmes:
But she does.
Melissa Kruger:
Yeah.
Jackie Hill Perry:
I always try to use it to care for my neighbor. Not all the time, because it can turn into the gossip if you don’t reign it in. But anywho, it’s time for us to talk about one of our favorite things. Today, I want to know, what is y’all’s all time favorite salad to make, or eat, or even what place you go to, to get a real like bomb salad?
Melissa Kruger:
My salad is not healthy and it is not going to be legacy.
Jackie Hill Perry:
Was Zack’s piece?
Melissa Kruger:
No, it’s my dad’s chicken salad, and we call it, Daddy Bob. My kids call him Daddy, Bob. Daddy, Bob’s chicken salad. It’s got egg, relish, chicken, mayo, salt, pepper, celery.
Jackie Hill Perry:
That’s what we’re supposed to have.
Melissa Kruger:
And he takes it and he grinds it up and it’s so good, and it’s yummy, but it’s not healthy.
Jackie Hill Perry:
So?
Melissa Kruger:
It’s good, but … I know.
Jackie Hill Perry:
[crosstalk].
Melissa Kruger:
Y’all are going to give some healthy salads with like goat cheese and a balsamic dressing, like a chicken salad with mayo.
Jasmine Holmes:
I’m just upset that the question’s about salad. I’m like, salad?
Melissa Kruger:
That’s why I had to make it.
Jasmine Holmes:
You did. I like Southwest salad, like Chipotle dressing salad with like beans and stuff.
Jackie Hill Perry:
Is that your Texas coming out?
Jasmine Holmes:
Probably. Probably.
Jackie Hill Perry:
Yeah. I just like salads that are made with a lot of vegetables, and so there’s this place … No, there’s this place called Upbeat in Atlanta, and it’s a salad bar. I’ll usually get like kale and spinach, chickpeas, salmon, broccoli, probably some mushrooms.
Melissa Kruger:
Healthy, healthy, healthy.
Jackie Hill Perry:
No, but I like it-
Jasmine Holmes:
I do like salmon on a salad.
Jackie Hill Perry:
It’s fire. I just like when I can add a lot of substance that makes me feel full, but isn’t like the bad substance, like cheese and all these things. Not saying, I’m not against cheese. I’m just saying. They have this vegan, like crema dressing thing. It’s just a good situation.
Melissa Kruger:
Sounds good.
Jackie Hill Perry:
Those are my faves.
Jasmine Holmes:
Kale is goodness in a salad.
Jackie Hill Perry:
I love kale.
Jasmine Holmes:
I love kale.
Jackie Hill Perry:
We need the roughage for our digestive system.
Jasmine Holmes:
Kruger has a bag of kale salad with cranberries in it. That’s really good. That would be good.
Jackie Hill Perry:
What I don’t like is arugula.
Jasmine Holmes:
Really?
Melissa Kruger:
I like arugula.
Jackie Hill Perry:
Arugula is so aggressive. It just feels like it’s trying to fight me.
Melissa Kruger:
It’s nice and peppery.
Jackie Hill Perry:
Yeah. I feel like it’s in my mouth trying to fight like I did something to his mama. You don’t feel that way?
Jasmine Holmes:
It’s aggressive.
Jackie Hill Perry:
When it’s on a sandwich, it’s like, ooh, like you just cursed me out.
Jasmine Holmes:
Oh, I don’t like on a sandwich. Yeah. I can do it on a salad.
Melissa Kruger:
I like it with pear, blue cheese, walnuts, arugula, and a light champagne vinegar.
Jasmine Holmes:
A Waldorf salad with some arugula is good.
Melissa Kruger:
That’d be good.
Jasmine Holmes:
Yeah.
Jackie Hill Perry:
It’s too mean, but that’s me judging arugula.
Jasmine Holmes:
Arugula has obviously made you feel judged.
Jackie Hill Perry:
It did. I feel like enough. [crosstalk]. Anywho, thanks for listening to today’s episode of Let’s Talk. Next week, we’re going to have a conversation about prayer. You can subscribe to Let’s Talk through Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you’d like to get your podcasts. You can check out other shows from The Gospel Coalition Podcast Network at tgc.org/podcast. The Gospel Coalition supports the church in making disciples of all nations by providing resources that are trusted and timely, winsome and wise, and centered on the gospel of Jesus Christ.
This season of Let’s Talk is sponsored by RTS Global, the online program at Reformed Theological Seminary. Learn more at rts.edu/online.
Is there enough evidence for us to believe the Gospels?
Jackie Hill Perry is a spoken word poet and hip-hop artist and the author of Gay Girl, Good God: The Story of Who I Was, and Who God Has Always Been. She and her husband, Preston, have three daughters.
Jasmine Holmes is a wife, mom, and speaker, and the author of Mother to Son: Letters to a Black Boy on Identity and Hope and Carved in Ebony. She and her husband, Phillip, have three sons, and they are members of Redeemer Church in Jackson, Mississippi. Learn more at jasminelholmes.com. You can also follow her on Facebook and Twitter.
Melissa Kruger serves as vice president of discipleship programming at The Gospel Coalition. She is the author of The Envy of Eve: Finding Contentment in a Covetous World, Walking with God in the Season of Motherhood, In All Things: A Nine-Week Devotional Bible Study on Unshakeable Joy, Growing Together: Taking Mentoring Beyond Small Talk and Prayer Requests, Wherever You Go, I Want You to Know, His Grace Is Enough, Lucy and the Saturday Surprise, Parenting with Hope: Raising Teens for Christ in a Secular Age, and Ephesians: A Study of Faith and Practice. Her husband, Mike, is the president of Reformed Theological Seminary, and they have three children. She writes at Wits End, hosted by The Gospel Coalition. You can follow her on Instagram, Facebook, or Twitter.