Passion for the Persecuted

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Collin Hansen
Welcome, everyone. It’s great to see everybody this afternoon. I’m going to start off by giving a thank you to our sponsor for this breakout, you can go ahead and grab that brochure that’s on the chair in front of you. And for those of you watching online, I want to direct your attention to reformed Theological Seminary are wonderful sponsor for this breakout. They, specifically the brochure you’ve got here and you can check out we’ll hear more from from Karen about this as well, the Edmonton center. You can learn more about them, oh, Karen’s modeling it, this is lovely. Appreciate as well done. You can also visit the booth for reformed Theological Seminary over there in the exhibit hall. And also check them out [email protected]. And again, we’ll hear more from Karen about the admin center, through RTS. All right. So you are you’re here joining us for a live podcast episode with gospel bound, which I host to the gospel coalition. But let me just kind of set the stage for what we’re going to be talking about here today, as Christ’s Church continues to expand around the world, so does persecution. And that’s what we’re gonna talk about here on this live episode of gospel bound. I am the host, Colin Hanson, I serve as Vice President of content and editor in chief of the gospel coalition. And in this podcast in Gospel bound, we keep looking until we see God working. We keep looking until we see God working. He’s not limited by our awareness of what he’s doing. But our faith expands as we discover what he’s already been doing. Today, we’re gonna be discussing how God’s people fight for faith, when it when it can cost them their lives. We’re going to learn how other Christians can support them in prayer and advocacy. We’re going to do that through our two distinguished guests. Let’s start on the far end. My friend Cory Porter. She is the CEO of Christian solidarity worldwide, graduated from the University of Mississippi completed her MA in theological studies, with an emphasis in religion and society from Princeton Theological Seminary. She has been published in his testimonies, my heritage, and the ad campaigns a new narrative on abortion, pro woman and pro child. She has 13 years of experience in campus ministry, serving most recently on the campus of Princeton University. Thanks, Cory. Good afternoon, guys. Everybody give her a give her a hand. also joined then by Karen Ellis, who is passionate about theology, human rights and global religious freedom. She is the director of the Edmiston center for the study of the Bible, and ethnicity at reformed Theological Seminary in Atlanta, Georgia. Since 2006, she has collaborated with the Swiss based organization International Christian response and travels internationally advocating for global religious freedom. She is a PhD candidate in world Christianity and ethics at the Oxford Centre for mission studies in England. Hey, Karen, thanks for being here. All right. So I mean, I think you’re likely prepared for the kind of content we’re going to be discussing, which is going to be fairly heavy. It’s where the, where our faith meets the difficulties that take us all the way back to the prophets of the Old Testament that takes us all the way back to, to Christ Himself, and certainly the early church, and really a narrative that continues all the way through church history in different ways. But let’s start out Kori, just help us to understand what, what first gave you a passion to advocate for the persecuted church?

Kori Porter
I think this is one of my favorite questions that you wrote. Because I think when we oftentimes think about the persecuted church, we don’t oftentimes think about how we fall into that narrative, or why we would have a passion for it. Colin, I don’t think you actually noticed that my testimony is kind of tied to like a Pauline experience.

Collin Hansen
I did not know this.

Kori Porter
Karen has mentored me since forever. So spiritual mom, she knows all things. But when I was coming up in Mississippi, i My testimony is very much in the streets, if you will, and so got kicked out of high school, around 18 years old and had a really crisis in my life. And so coming off drugs, trafficking drugs, I just really didn’t know what to do in this world. And God was so gracious to me, that make to make a very long story short, that he sent to campus ministers with the gospel into my life, and it changed it forever. And so there’s something about realizing and seeing Christ for who he is and the power of Christ and the anointing of Christ and glory of Christ. That just takes drugs out of your mouth. It takes the desire to flesh out of your mouth. And so with that type of passion in my heart, I can truly understand how Someone who’s being persecuted under so much suffering and things that we wouldn’t we, I mean, you think about your life and you’re like, Man, I wouldn’t ever want to give up my family or put my family in harm’s way or I would never be able to go through that. But when you’re glowing upon a Savior, and you see something past yourself and something so transcendent, you push through, although we have not yet seen him, we love him. So I think my passion honestly is tied to my testimony, which is that I have a Savior who loved me. And I can see that the people who were persecuting this world love our Savior, and they see him. So I think that’s my tie and my passion to advocate for them. So she knows this guy, she

Collin Hansen
I mean, let me hear those a little bit more than Cory. You’ve why the switch from campus ministry, then into this role.

Kori Porter
Yeah, campus ministry was the Lord’s choice. My own because I came to faith through campus ministry, the Lord just kind of pushed me through that way. I wanted to be seminary train, so I went to RTS to start off and long story short, Kevin De Yong came down, gave a sermon he mimicked in in mocked Piper To be honest, and it was funny, and I love jokes. So I was like, Oh, I like you. We hit it off. And he offered me my first job. And so from that moment on, the Lord has shaped me through relationships with young people. And I’m glad because it stopped me from being curmudgeonly. And allow me to always remember the day of my salvation, those kids come to faith, and they are on fire. And that’s the type of tie that we have to have. When we advocate for the persecuted church. We have to be on fire for our love for Christ. And campus students got it tenfold.

Collin Hansen
That’s great. Well, Karen, how did you get going on this path and this advocacy work?

K.A. Ellis
It’s been neat to watch her grow into this into this role. It’s my mic not on.

K.A. Ellis
Okay, so it’s been a blessing to watch Cory grow into advocacy for the persecuted church. Because I honestly, at times, when you’re advocating for a minority of a minority of a minority, you feel like you’re speaking into a void. And then, you know, I was talking about the persecuted church for years. And then, you know, walking alongside Cory, and then all of a sudden, she came up with this burden, that had been fomenting for a long time, also for the persecuted church. And I realized I hadn’t been speaking into a void, that she had picked up on a lot of the burdens and the concerns and the things I was learning from the persecuted church. I’ve spent time in Eastern Europe just after the Iron Curtain fell. And so I was maybe six months old in the Lord. And all of a sudden, I was exposed for two years living in actually in Ukraine, I was exposed to a people who were rediscovering what it meant to have freedom of religious expression, and coming out of, you know, an a persecuted and underground church reality into religious freedom. So it was, it was really formative for me to see that transition for them. At the same time, while I was in Eastern Europe, a book fell into my hands by a pastor named Richard Wurmbrand. Ah, I see a lot of heads nodding, yes, Richard Wurmbrand, who established the Voice of the Martyrs. And so his everybody, all my friends were reading like, Heinz feet on high places, and I was reading tortured for Christ. Right. And, and it shaped me. And I just thought I came away from that with a very romantic, unreal view of what it was like to live under persecution, but it started me on a journey, and developed a burden in my heart to understand why someone would love God that much. That even they would even work through pain, physical pain, through torture, through incredibly like things that your flesh would rail against, but still hold on to their faith in Christ. I ended up in Christian radio for about for a number of years, and I ended up doing advertising and production work for an organization called International Christian response that has served the persecuted for 50 years. And they’re based in Switzerland, also called HMK. And I started working with them, I ended up on their board and I wanted to take a more active role with them. So they made me an advocate graciously and I had an enormous learning curve because you’re talking about many different regions in the world, many different politics, political situations, many and all these all these different histories that inform individual city durations of persecution. And so I’ve been blessed that they’ve walked with me on that journey. They’ve trained me. They’ve educated me. And here I am continuing to advocate for the persecuted church.

Collin Hansen
I really enjoyed Karen, just talking over lunch about history, revival. All these things that you and I both studied extensively, longed to see in the church today, it was well, just how can we work together seek the Lord together for these things in our day. And part of what was included in that as you and I just went back and forth with all kinds of different contemporary and historical figures in the church who suffered persecution. Share, give us an example of one figure in particular, who suffered or it kind of endured under persecution from the historical church that who inspires you today.

K.A. Ellis
Everybody pick up your brochure. So RTS has provided us with an end, the Edmiston center is provided with with us with these wonderful brochures about the center where we actually study the theology of Christian endurance and develop ideas around them. We hear from people all over the world. And I’m going to say that the people for whom the Edmiston center is named, obviously have had a deep impact on me it’s named for Alonzo and Alfia Edmundston. And they were African American missionaries, one generation after slavery. They both attended HBCUs. Historically Black Colleges and Universities they went one he went to Stillman, which was a preacher’s College, and it’d be in the south. And she went to Fisk, Fisk University, and they both had a burden to go to Congo. And so they actually did not meet in the South. They didn’t meet in Selma. They didn’t meet at Tuskegee. They met in Congo. And they married and then they experienced persecution as Christians as a part of the first African American led missionary team to the continent. And they were Presbyterians. Whoo. Okay. Shameless, Shameless. But what they experienced when they were there, now they’re one generation removed from slavery. So their parents had been enslaved, they were emancipated in 1865. They get to Congo. And they experience the atrocities of King Leopold, the second. And there’s a incredible oppression happening of the folks who lived in Congo, the Congolese, and also the African rubber trade, and also the Arab slave trade. So they took what they had learned at their historically black college. And they, they develop faith work projects. They were they fled for their life many times, along with their team, it was a team of about 15 of them, and they stayed there and actively worked in social engagement and gospel engagement. And she created she actually took the language that didn’t have a grammar. She created the first grammar for the, for their language of the the locals there. So there’s just a lot to admire about the legacy that they left in Congo and that they experienced persecution themselves with two perspectives, having been an oppressed minority, their parents, having been an oppressed minority, and then going and taking what they learned from that situation and how Christianity applied and seeing others set free both physically and spiritually.

Collin Hansen
So that was hard to darkness air Congo Then Joseph Conrad’s famous work about that. Wow. Okay, Cory

Kori Porter
Well, it’s hard to follow up gonna do an easy layup on this one. And it is true to my heart which is Stephen guys, who does not love the story of Stephen this faithful faithful man who falls in the in the disciples way to be able to bring Christianity to this world, and to be able to be helped the early church to establish and what I love an X seven, in his again, tied to a kind of my own testimony is that when he’s getting ready to be stone, and the Sanhedrin is angry and and gnashing their teeth, right? He looks up into something, he looks up. And he says that he looked up full of the Holy Spirit and being full of the Holy Spirit. He saw the glory of God in the sun sitting at the right hand of the Father. And so there is something so powerful and beautiful that I believe there’s a special grace that God gives a persecuted. And so I admire those man of the faith who in Scripture is very quickly. I know you’re gonna move on. You should look up the story of Perpetua and Felicity, for some of the first early writings of martyrdom that we see is actually her own narrative of being in prison and dying for her Savior as well, as a mother, new mother gives her life over to proclaim Christ in top of Africa under Roman rule.

Collin Hansen
I don’t know why this didn’t occur to me before this before I was planning this session, but I I serve and teach through Beeson Divinity School in Birmingham, Alabama, and I’m sure you saw this when you’re recently visiting, but we have, we have busts of 20th century martyrs from every continent, in our worship space at Hodges chapel there. And then we have a hall are kind of a cloud of witnesses in our dome. Above and did you notice who was up there? Perpetua and Felicity are in the dome up there with Martin Luther and with you know, John Calvin and all those different people up there. So I, you know, it’s interesting I teach. One of the course that I teach primarily at Beeson Divinity School is on cultural apologetics. And a lot of people might think, okay, and so that’s about how we want to ingratiate ourselves to the culture or speak to cultures language contextualization. I help people right off the bat and what do we start with? What after we do basic stuff on apologetics and contextualization and theological vision, we go to persecution, we go to Perpetua and Felicity, and we read her account. And we talk about, you know, the interactions with her father, you know, the exchange with her father and things like that. And and just like you can’t talk about cultural engagement unless you start from the premise that our Savior told us that if we followed him, we would be persecuted. So you start with that perspective, it helps you to kind of know you’re on the right track of Kevin and others will say this a lot that you, you know, you’re on the right track. If I mean, if people hate you too much, when then maybe you’re doing something wrong. If everybody loves you, you’re probably doing something wrong. But just that’s what First Peter 212 and others promises that as we follow Christ, this is what Stephen and the other apostles saw, right, is that as they were being persecuted, people were believing. They always seem to go hand in hand. And now, I’ll start with you. Korean this question, it might be an incredibly dumb question. But I still think it’s helpful to ask about religious freedom. Why do we, why do we advocate for that? Because when we’re reading the New Testament, it seems so obvious that not only was this normative, but also as I just said, it was told that we would, we should absolutely all of us expect it. So why advocate for something that we kind of I don’t know, wasn’t necessarily in the minds of the apostles, and Jesus.

K.A. Ellis
I believe there was a language you put in the notes, you hit the seat of the monitor?

Collin Hansen
Well, I’ve got that one. Well, that’s another question I had, which let’s do it. Let’s start with that one. Because you guys may be familiar with that with that concept of of the comment that the seat of the martyrs or the blood of the martyrs is the seat of the church. And I do think there’s a romantic notion about the persecuted church. And whenever I hear that, I say, Well, clearly, when you look at Christ Himself, His blood is certainly this, the church. And I think when we look at Steven, and we look all the way through to Peter’s, suppose a crucifixion and things like that, we can see that. But then, of course, you think about the great Christian civilization of North Africa, which obviously has not existed for a long time through persecution. What do you what do you say about that about those notions of persecution is almost like a mission strategy for the church. How do you how do you hold those things intention asked.

Kori Porter
That’s interesting, because I don’t know if those who are currently being persecuted would appreciate the language that they must die in order for the gospel to be going forward. I think that they would say their Savior has already died for this world. And so I think from that standpoint, I do believe that we though in America have the ability and the privilege to step back for a moment. And then our privilege, were able to say, what does that mean? How do I understand that and that language from Tutuila in the seat of the martyrs versus the church, I realized this historical context. So if you think about in a Roman Empire, he’s under the rule of a, a deity like an emperor who wants to kill Christians. But you go one more, one more century early, later with Gods Constantine, he comes into power. And you see that silence. So that language when even whoa, wait one more century later. So when Constantine comes in the first Christian emperor, who goes on and makes the Roman Empire Christian itself, he stops that language by issuing an edict called the Edict of Milan. And so I think historically, as we see the church and goes in and throughout the ebbs and flows of historical context, so in some spaces, when an exile i think we can anticipate persecution, as you see in the book of Daniel with the Babylonians and then Nebuchadnezzar. However, I do think there are often other times when Christians are in rule or an empowered are. And in those dynamics, I don’t know that persecution would be the right space or the current space that would hold weight within the church. But to your point, it is inevitable that the Church will face persecution. And you’ve alluded to it so many times and even quoted it. And First Peter, I was reading for this panel. And I love the language that he starts where he says to God’s elect, who were pretty much chosen exiles. And he goes on to say that that chosen exile people group that has were chosen in foreknowledge of God preordained to be persecuted, essentially. And so you have, we do have to realize that there is something of God’s provision in his preordained his church would go through. But I like what Paul says, and filing is my God, if you can get your freedom, why would you not right, and so there’s a sense of when you do have these constraints of the human rule, this happening, you must suffer, you may suffer, but also if you can have a advocate and you can have a human rights group that will alleviate the suffering of the church, my God, we should advocate for that in strengthen the power of Christ Jesus, He’s given that ability to do so.

Collin Hansen
So Paul, Paul would be our example there, right. And Paul was, Paul suffered many things. And he believed that those sufferings were advancing the kingdom. And at the same time, when he had a chance to work through the system, legal system of the Roman Empire, he availed himself those opportunities and testified to the gospel at the highest levels there.

K.A. Ellis
I think a good question that comes out of that, too, is why do some people, some Christians have religious freedom? And others do not? And yet, God advances the gospel through both situations. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And, and so that gives us the question of what responsibility you know, as people living in the Freer world, what responsibility do we have to you know, our local body, but also to the global body? Who doesn’t have religious freedom? And so that’s, that’s, that’s something provocative that grows out of that. And also, how are we defining persecution. So we tend to think of persecution as the most extreme, you know, death, martyrdom, torture and terror, and it is those things but you know, Scripture gives us a range of you know, you’ll be hated, insulted, all the way to martyrdom, and loss of life. And so, you know, when you kind of look at the biblical definition of persecution that sort of changes that conversation. Do you

Collin Hansen
think then that you could say, at any level American Christians are persecuted?

K.A. Ellis
That’s a great question, because I’m very careful. I like I’m very careful with that. Because we do is so you know, if the statistics are still correct from a few years ago, you know, 75% of the world 380 million Christians, one in seven lives under some form of restriction. We’re the 25%, technically in the Freer world. But that’s not to say that there aren’t people in the free or world whose families are rejecting them, because they’re coming to faith in Christ, or because they’re taking hard stance for the gospel. That’s not to say that there are individuals who are be who may lose employment, because they take a hard stand for the gospel. So if you are, you may well experience those things in the free world. I think the question that you get to when you put it in the are we experiencing as Americans is, is it being legislated in a way that can be tracked? And because that’s when human rights organizations step in, if it’s to be expected of persecution is to be expected. And there’s a wide range than when do you step in to help you step in to help when you realize that human rights are being violated? So

Collin Hansen
your thoughts on that one, Cory,

Kori Porter
I mean, totally agree. And so the organization that I’m here with now is called Christian solidarity worldwide. We’re 40 years of the UK in about 20 years, the US, and I am a CEO, not a trained advocate. And what I mean by that is a very important distinction me there are people who have degrees upon degrees who study this intently. And that is the one thing I’m trained in as CEO and representative of my organization, is not to put in the western sphere, the persecution that we see in 80% of the world. And because the reason why that’s important is that and when you conflate those two, then it D legitimizes the voices of those who are really dying out here in the streets, guys, and so that that’s why I’m a little kappab. To your point. One of my board members Judd Burchell says from from microaggression to martyrdom, meaning that there is a gamut and I think, for the American population, because we’re 78% Christian in America right now. This next generation has clocked around 40%. Y’all we are going quickly into minority right the power dynamics are shifting very quickly. So I do think we need to understand that there is going to be a situation where we will not be the majority culture, we will not have power and dynamics and privilege in that. And I do think you’re going to start to see a lot more situations that we’re gonna be way more reflective of our brothers and sisters around the world and in ways in which they may have seen persecution than not.

K.A. Ellis
I think it’s also worth mentioning, too, that that persecution is often determined by politics, history, and culture. And you can have cultural aggression, and have all the have all the Constitution in the world to protect your religious freedom. But you know, there are there there are places in the world today that have constitutions that say, yes, sure, you can have religious freedom, but you are considered minority, a dirty minority, if you name the name of Christ, and you’re not trusted in the marketplace, because you’ve been told in school, those people make they they don’t do business right there. They don’t trust them, they’re Christians. So you can have a cultural aspect to that completely works against the the freedom that’s granted by your constitution.

Collin Hansen
Now, I’m sure we’ve got some number of people in the room who have experienced travel connections, missionaries, indigenous church leaders that they support. So there’s probably a good bit of awareness here. But let’s you guys are working in this areas professionally. I’ll start with you, Karen. Is there a particular part of the world that worries you the most right now. And I’ve been, I’ve been working in this realm for about 20 years or so. And what I’ve noticed during that time, is that it does change, you know, the different places that that rise to the top of concern lists change over time, of course, sadly, in other ways, they, they stay the same. Some of the countries have never changed there. And I think also, people would be surprised by some of the places that are most difficult. So I think especially an example to me would be that. I don’t know if I put them number one, but they’re pretty near the top of the list would be India. And a lot of people don’t necessarily think of India as being the most difficult place, but especially northern India, the levels of violence toward Christians are so incredibly severe

K.A. Ellis
and have escalated in the last five to 10 years.

Collin Hansen
Well, because of a political dynamic within the leadership of India, which is itself, obviously a very complicated place with a massive Muslim population, right,

K.A. Ellis
as well. So I can tell you that there are areas of concern that I wouldn’t say I’m more worried about, you know, I pray for many different areas. But there are some that are interesting, that are interesting to watch, because of how the dynamics are at play and how Christians are persecuted. Afghans Afghanistan was number one this year, on open doors, open doors, has a has the World Watch List. It is such a wonderful resource. Their research is tight, and it’s solid. So they unseated North Korea. As number one, I can’t be good if your unsets huge, right? So there are ones that we watch because the Afghanistan situation escalated so quickly.

Collin Hansen
And you see that story in the podcast, the Gospel Coalition

K.A. Ellis
did a fantastic job if you haven’t listened to that episode, where she captures the fog that the most that all of the advocacy organizations were experiencing last August when Cabo fell. Another one that is really interesting to watch. Is is in particular, China. Because there because of the surveillance situation.

Collin Hansen
Well, it seems as though situation in China has gotten much worse. Now. I think five years ago, all of the conversation I was hearing was very triumphal about the growth numbers, the size, the some of the openness and things like that. I mean, we were doing conferences. It’s interesting, the Gospel coalition was doing and with some of the partners that we have here, was doing an event with leaders from Wuhan in January of 2020. And they were banned, they were blocked from leaving. Our leader still went forward with that, but again, that was we didn’t know much there. But you know, I’ve been asking people even asked a senator recently. Do you think technology is going to make authoritarianism easier or more difficult because you think about the internet. How can you shut down the internet right, you know, there’s always a way around. It. It does appear China through COVID is showing us that technology is a very powerful, powerful advocate for so social control. And it’s not just Christians, it seems the entire entire country. That’s

K.A. Ellis
right. And the social credit system developed there

Collin Hansen
can’t travel can purchase the more electronically if you have a low

K.A. Ellis
social credit score that functions like you can. There’s a China aid in China partnership both do a fantastic work on a great group, sort of, you know, breaking down how those things are working out for the population and for Christians. But it’s interesting to hear how the church feels about herself in some of those places, and how they feel like we’ve actually, yes, we’ve been consistently persecuted, but we’ve really fallen asleep in some areas.

Collin Hansen
Yes. When you’re talking to Yeah, they’re like, oh, yeah, we’ve lost our edge. Yeah.

K.A. Ellis
And so they’re praying for revival, even in the midst of persecution. And which brings me to another point, it’s, it’s, it’s, I feel like I can’t just only watch the places where it’s really hot. I also watch the places where the church is really complacent. Because that’s that they’re also walking a very dangerous edge as well, where the church is asleep. The church is distracted the churches idolatrous. And, well,

Collin Hansen
Those were the warnings in in Revelations, churches of Asia Minor, we think about

K.A. Ellis
Don’t want to lose your lamp and your lamp stand. Exactly.

Collin Hansen
They were not necessarily I mean, that was in a broader environment of persecution, but a lot of it was not. You need to be so worried about the persecution, it was more about the spiritual life. That’s the inside core. Do you have a particular place that comes to mind? Yeah, Nigeria. I was I was gonna wait to see what you said. But it’s not just this recent bombing. I assume it just, which was so shocking, because it was in the south. We expect this from Kaduna state are jaw you know, this is like that.

Kori Porter
So some of you guys may or may not be aware of what the situation is Nigeria, but Nigeria is split roughly from the north more in Islam, and then in the south, more Christian influence. But more and more increasingly, you start to see Islamic extremists out of the Boko Haram. And as fraction group called iswap. Come in and invade places of peace in Nigeria where Christians are trying to flourish. Oftentimes, you see the most vulnerable are women and children. Children are at all times under immense amount of fear because the the men come in mass armed and ready to take them out. And when they take them out, either they kill the young boys and they take the girls to encampments, and they trade their bodies or they forced to convert them over to Islam. The most recent when we back up by saying this, United States government, back in the 90s, were able to push through something called the religious freedom, international Freedom Act, and that was held authored by a senator at the time called Frank Wolf. Frank Wolf has says Nigeria is going to be the next Rwanda is set to be in that much of an implosion. And so to see that the church ourselves are solid and why our brothers and sisters are slain, floors me, but in the most recent attack, even in Kaduna, itself, as you were saying, is also quite overwhelming to hear. Our organization reports out that in this region of Kaduna, you had a masked man coming with and these are Islam extremist, right so not Islamic Islamic extremists come in with turbans and ak 40, sevens maxed out into this providence of Kaduna and they’re on the back of motorcycles, three men to a motorcycle about 150. So that wrecks up to about 504 50 of people coming in to invade this space. Or not only do they burn homes, but they burn churches, the free and Jokl churches there, and they burn down those spaces. But interesting enough in this particular attack, which is really alarming is not only that the men come with their own ak 40 sevens and you have to say how does a terrorist organization essentially bandits get such firepower that should make you think what Where are you getting it from? Where are your resources, we know is off the back of young girls when you’re trading. So there’s a money power there, but it’s always been alluded to and this is me saying it not CSW has been alluded that the government themselves may be supplying because of this ethnic, dynamic of Fulani and how they are favoring the Fulani ethnic group which is comprises much of the terrorist group, but not to get too much in the weeds. But when they came in, and to wrap up when they came in, they came in also with air support. What Banda Do you know can come when a helicopter came in with the helicopter ride coverage to allow them to go out and pretty much it whoever would love to eradicate that place. That is what I’m talking about. When we talk about persecution of Christians. We’re talking about real lives real people who only want to worship our savior who are literally being slaughtered because of the name of Christ Jesus, but yet they will not back down. So I just think there are a lot of areas of focus, just like Nigeria, but I would say that the church we just need to wake up the ones who have power. I’m saying this for all Americans who have power who played the name of Jesus We have the privilege, we have privilege, we need to wake up and we need to move and we need to start opening our house.

Collin Hansen
Let’s jump straight to this, we got about 10 minutes left here. We can pray. And we should close this session. Before we end in prayer, we can pray, what’s the next thing I can do?

K.A. Ellis
Go to your local organization when not local, but pick a fight. There’s so many organizations, good organizations, solid, that are doing good work on the ground. Go to one of them. You may already be subscribed to their newsletters, they may be sending you a prayer newsletter, find out what kind of training they have. Become an ambassador, in your own local congregation. There are opportunities with some I know International Christian response has gives you the opportunity to support a particular church in a particular region, like it can get personal. And so there’s there’s just all kinds of opportunities through your local organizations that are set up and equipped to train you well. They’ll give you prayer training, which you definitely need when you start moving in these spaces. But they’ll also set you up with the opportunity to make a bridge between you and your local church, and a geographic bridge, a linguistic bridge, and a spiritual bridge the whole deal, and help to reconnect the places in the body that have become numb. And it’s and I see this happening, the extent to which we do this is the extent to which we see the body of Christ reanimating around the world. And it’s a beautiful thing to see. I’ve never I’ve been in the middle of doing this about 25 years. And I’ve been watching this undercurrent of people here where we are in the Freer world, talking now to others across geographic and linguistic lines through organizations. And it’s a beautiful thing. So it’s to the extent that you can do that. That’s a wonderful next step beyond how can I pray? How can I give we were talking at lunch about we have this the Edmiston center or one of our phrases is we’re moving from advocacy to education. Because there’s a lot we can learn from our brothers and sisters overseas.

Collin Hansen
So especially because of the dynamic that Corey talks about there of what you saw up close and personal and campus ministry, you’re working with those younger generations in that environment, you can get a pretty strong glimpse of what’s ahead for the rest of us. And you can see we’re going to have to learn from them. And what you and I talked about, Karen, as well at lunch is not only the resources of the global church today and historically, but the resources historically, especially of the persecuted church in the United States, which of course is the black church there as well. So that combination has a lot to teach us. And I would say the gap between knowledge and action from that knowledge is pretty wide at this point. So we can we can make a lot of progress simply through knowledge. I think we have some progress to make there. So next thing after we pray, and what was the next thing to do?

Kori Porter
Thank you for mentioning, you don’t oftentimes hear and this is not a civil rights movement moment. But the fact that you mentioned that the black church was persecuted in the States, that is such a helpful framework, because why, instead of shame in that what we can do is look back in that and see what jewels can we pull out to help us today? Do you see that? Like there’s something redemptive there for us all? I just want to say, thank you, Colin, for mentioning that and pausing for that.

Collin Hansen
Well, I mean, I know some, sometimes the biggest things that are happening are the things that you take for granted. And the fact of the matter is when you consider American history, the fact that African Americans would be in many ways the most religious, most Christian group in the United States is the most crazy, God wrought miracle you could ever have imagined. Yeah, how does that make any sense that those people who are transported under the most heinous circumstances and treated in the most horrible ways, God would somehow work through that and build a persevering church? Through that that can then centuries later continue to resource? Yes, the majority church falling I mean, only God can do that. Oh, my God, y’all. Only God can do that.

Kori Porter
no, it’s just really cool. I was like, okay, additional to that. I want to say thank you guys for being here. Me and Carolyn, keep talking about this is our second time speaking on this while we’ve been here, and oftentimes the room is scattered They’re not many people here who care about these issues. So your presence, first of all was a step. Just know that know that you being here, sitting here, taking notes listening attentively, I just want to say thank you for your time. Second to that, and people don’t always use this, but I know you said this too. And Colin, but prayer is essential. Because when you step into this work, oh, my God, you will get to a Well, I mean, emotionally, physically, spiritually, it is not okay over here. Because you’re suffering you’re you’re it’s like a vicarious suffering. You’re entering into the storyline, and you’re praying for and honestly, the discipline that’s not talked about much, you’re fasting for interceding on behalf of others. And so that work, as Karen does it often. And I myself, and covered it in usually, is prayer and fasting. So if you want to say what spiritual disciplines can I have in my life, to help me to be able to buffer myself against what is coming in here? I would say prayer and fasting. And then lastly, I would also say, talk with your pastor. In the last session, they talked about what would it look like and who in here who’s churches even doing this type of work, and not many people raise their hands. And so I would venture to say, bring your pastor into these conversations, allow them to listen to the podcast, allow them to listen to other resources that TGC has, but really get your pastor involved. Because once the pastor heart is gripped, the church will follow. So that would be my next steps.

Collin Hansen
Karen lucky to close in prayer, but I want to ask one, kind of encouraging question here. And I know this, you guys will have good answers on this. You could travel anywhere right now, to meet with some of these Christians. Where do you go?

K.A. Ellis
I can’t say it publicly.

Collin Hansen
You can’t pick favorites?

Unknown Speaker
If I want to go then there’ll be a record of me saying trying to travel incognito here.

Collin Hansen
We can just tell me what you love about that place that you can’t tell us.

K.A. Ellis
Right. I would like to be present when I would like to be present. And then I know it’s virtually impossible for me to be so I can say it. I’d like to be present when Jesus shows himself to North Korea. Oh my Amen to that. Like to be I just like to be a fly on the wall for that moment, because those saints who are they changed the way I even frame worship when you can worship in a littering because it’s the only place where you can worship God and sing to him without being molested is and you’ve and he meets you there. And he makes it a tabernacle. I mean, I just I want to see their faces when they hope their Savior.

Collin Hansen
Oh, I love that. Makes me think my my kids watched one of the movies about Cory and Betsy 10 Boom. That’s what to always go back to the Christ is deeper still, that moment there. I mean, that’s, that’s amazing. It’s right there. Cory, where would you go?

Kori Porter
I keep bringing up Nigeria. So I’ll maybe pivot off them for just a moment. I’m gonna go back. So Leah sharibu. When she returns back from her captivity of being taken over by Boko Haram, 14 year old girls to sit her ground still in captivity day, when the Lord chooses, I believe on the side of glory to bring her back to her family and bring her back to people who’ve been advocating on her behalf. I want to be there guys, and I’m gonna hit the floor. You ain’t no seat, let them come up out of me. It’s gonna be a prayer. And so that’s what I want to be there for.

Collin Hansen
Close us in prayer, Karen, if you could.

K.A. Ellis
Now, if we are children, then we are heirs, heirs of God and CO heirs with Christ if indeed, we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in His glory. Heavenly Father, thank you for those that you’ve brought today. To understand better how your body hurts. How your body heals. How your body raises its face towards glory like Steven the martyr and behold their redemption drawing near. Father I pray that you would cure us of our spiritual sleep cure us of our spiritual analgesia begin to connect the sinews and then synapses and the though the muscles and the tissues and the bones and the connectors all across the globe of your beautiful body that you gave yours to unite. Do an amazing work out of this moment today in each art each year who listens each mind who comprehends that you are the same yesterday, today and forever and you will keep your promise made when you breathe life into the first man and carve the first woman out of his side, that you will keep a people for yourself. You will harmonize them around your throne at the end of the beginning of all things and that you will be our God and we will be your people. We thank you for this time. Bless TGC bless Colin, as they continue to do the work that you’ve called them to do. And we thank you for all these things in the matchless name of Your Son Jesus. Amen.