Women’s Ministry in the Church

Melissa Kruger

The image I like to give of the church is a choir. And I love when you know you’re singing an old hymn, and they have just the women sing, and then I love when they have just the men sing. But then there’s this moment when the whole choir joins in and they sing together, and there’s this glory. I mean, it’s just robust, and it’s better because you have the distinctions, but when they’re all together, it just glorifies God, and I think that’s the heart that we all have.

Matt Smethurst

Welcome back to the everyday pastor, a podcast for pastors on the nuts and bolts of ministry from TGC. I’m Matt Smithers and I’m Luke Duncan. And in a previous episode, LIG and I talked about the value of the sisters in our churches and the contributions and gifts that they bring. And we thought about how pastors can consider the experiences of women in our churches in order to shepherd them well, and this time, we want to get even more practical and talk about the nuts and bolts of women’s ministry in the church, acknowledging that that’s going to look different in different contexts. And yet we wanted to have an episode where we brought in some help, and so to help us today, we have our friends, Courtney doctor and Melissa Krueger, both of them have served on staff at local churches in the past. Both of them write resources for the church. Courtney is a mother of four, grandmother of five. She serves as the Director of women’s initiatives for TGC. And Melissa is a mom of three. She’s married to someone you pastors may be familiar with. Michael Kruger, professor at reformed Theological Seminary, author of many helpful books, and Melissa serves as the vice president of discipleship programming at TGC. Also, Courtney and Melissa are the CO hosts of a new TGC podcast for women called the deep dish. So be sure to keep an eye out for that and encourage sisters in your congregation to check it out. Courtney and Melissa, welcome to the show.

Courtney Doctor

Thanks for having us.

Melissa Kruger

Yeah, we’re glad to be here.

Matt Smethurst

As I mentioned in a previous episode, LIG and I shared some of our own experience of seeing women participating in the life of the church, ways that we can foster and facilitate that well, without compromising any of our complementarian convictions, which we don’t apologize for, we are happy, joyful complementarians. We trust that that is God’s design for the flourishing of both men and women in our churches, and yet, we want to have churches in which not only the men are flourishing, but the women are as well, where we’re partnering together for the work of ministry. And so we want to think about practical ways that that can be done well. So let’s just start there, kind of on this broadest level. I’d love to hear each of you talk about what are some practical ways that you’ve personally experienced men and women partnering Well, in ministry?

Melissa Kruger

Yeah, I think I’ve been just so fortunate in a lot of ways. I’ve had a lot of what I call great brothers and fathers, and as my children are getting older, maybe some sons in the faith at the church and so but what just some practical ways, some of it is just doing the life of the church together. You know, whether you’re on a committee with someone and you’re just, you know, helping plan the welcome outreach, or whatever, or we used to do a big Easter egg hunt every year, and that was a whole team effort for us to do this huge outreach in a public park, and so as men and women, we were just working together side by side planning. You know, who’s going to stuff the eggs and who’s going to give you the message at that and who’s going to welcome new people or whatever? And some of it’s just doing the work of ministry together, I think as a family, and that’s been a beautiful thing. I don’t know what you would say. Courtney, yeah,

Courtney Doctor

I think along those lines. And you know, just to reiterate, Matt, what you started with that we are convictionally complimentary and joyfully so and and that even some of our ideas are going to land differently at with different churches and different church leadership. And that is fine. We’re just tossing out things that we’ve seen done well in some churches that we’ve served and been active members in. You know, Melissa, you’ve talked before about the idea of even just serving on committees together. So you know, when the session or the elder board, the church leadership forms committees and having women serve on those on the Finance Committee, on the facility committee, and speaking into the life of the church, I think anything that that idea of of partnership in ministry. So whether it’s accomplishing an event we have been in churches where men and women have co taught adult Sunday school, husband and I led small group together for years. And we loved that. But one of the most beautiful things that I’ve seen is when pastors have, if they form a sermon prep or a sermon feedback committee, to have women on that, because then they’re able to get this perspective of, hey, you know, how did that sports analogy land? And it might be like that one landed great, but it was your 12th in a row. And so I’m kind of thinking maybe you need to lighten up on the sports analogies just a little bit, or just having that female perspective on all aspects of the life of the church, that that’s really a beautiful way to lean into our distinctions and the beauty of complementarity that we really need each other.

Matt Smethurst

Leg, you know, having served for nearly 20 years at first pres Jackson, it being a large church, you had the luxury, the privilege of getting to serve with a lot of qualified sisters on staff, just as you reflect on the women specifically in official staff roles, what are some of the benefits that you experienced from that?

Ligon Duncan

One thing I would say is, most of the churches that I have served over the course of my life have been smaller than first Pres. In fact, all of them have been smaller than first Pres. So my experiences go from South Carolina to Missouri to Edinburgh, Scotland to Jackson in a smaller congregation, and then eventually to first Pres. And so most of the places I’ve been have been structurally far less complex than first pres, but I can give this testimony. I’ve never been in a congregation in my life where we did not have a healthy interaction between men and women, and that, by the way, that doesn’t mean perfect. You know, I’m sure that there were some brothers and some sisters that thought things could have been improved in those places, but I’ve personally benefited from my relationships with godly women in those congregation and have seen godly women it work in different ways. And again, to contrast, Matt the the structure of the American churches that I have been in was much more developed than the structure of the churches that I was a part of in Edinburgh, Scotland, there’s just a culture of more church structure and staffing in American churches than there are in most British churches. That did not mean that the women were not significantly involved in the life of those church so that, to just reiterate what Courtney said, there’s not a one size fits all on this. It’s going to look a little bit different where we are now at first press Jackson, one of the key people that I had working with me was Donna Dobbs, my director of Christian education. And Melissa and Courtney both know Donna. Donna Donna is just amazing. She’s She’s retired from her position now, and is just a happy choir member and church member now, but she was invaluable to me. First of all, we were on the same page. Theologically, I did not have somebody that was a closer ally to me in the church, on the staff anywhere than Donna. And when you have that in a woman who’s involved in women’s ministry and Christian education in a local congregation, you have a an asset of value that you cannot quantify. It’s so significant. And she was able to address situations that I just I would have gotten myself into all kinds of problems if I had tried to address those things. And she could say, I’ll take care of that. For you. Don’t, don’t worry about that. I’ll, I’ll handle that. And I very thankfully. I think my whole church staff was that way. We we tried to do things for one another that would help one another advance our ministry and service to the congregation. And so I think we had a very happy and productive environment for church staff, and it was one that really served the congregation well. I think the women in our congregation very much respected the elders and had a healthy relationship with the elders, but having Donna on the church staff also gave them a window into the structure of the staff, and it gave them a window in what we were trying to do to foster their discipleship. And that was just only good for the church. Donna could help cultivate women in the congregation that had teaching gifts, that want to that wanted to invest in other women in the congregation, and that was a big part of what I did with her is help in teacher training, but she was sort of teaching women to teach women before it was cool to teach women to teach women. And so that was a great enhancement to life. At first pres, did

Courtney Doctor

you know that I actually came to faith, or at least my faith really came alive under Donna’s leadership? At first pres, the women. Ministry at first Pres. We were in Jackson in the early 90s. A lot of people think, oh, it’s because we went to seminary. No, we were just coming to faith. It was an evangelist, evangelism explosion group that came to our apartment, led my husband to the Lord. So we have a huge debt of gratitude to first press Jackson and Donna Dobbs, the amazing Donna Dobbs, no

Ligon Duncan

idea Courtney, and that’s so encouraging. And let me say, Donna carried on a legacy that had been started before her Gene Patterson, who was the pastor’s wife back in the night the late 1960s and 1970s She was an amazing Bible teacher, and she had started Bible studies that were attended by 600 or more women from across all of the metro area, in Jackson and Donna continued that legacy and actually taught more women to teach Bible studies in that way. And I could tell you lots of stories, like the one that you just told me, of women who came to faith in Christ, who they were just on fire for learning the Bible, learning the scriptures, applying it in their lives, in their work life, in their life, with their families, etc. It was, it was just a blessing to be able to see that. And I can take no credit for it at all. It was, you know, it’s all the Lord, and it was all these, these godly women in the congregation that did that ministry,

Matt Smethurst

like the point you made about how Donna was such an ally to you and for you with many of the women in the church, reminds me of a good point that’s made in a 2018 TGC article by Amy Gannett, where she writes this, Many pastors have expressed to me appropriate concern that their women’s ministries are reading theologically light books or only offering studies by the most popular Christian bloggers at the same time, most pastors, due to time constraints and ministry demands, are not able to keep their ear to the ground in Christian women’s circles, nor are they able to read and review every book or study sought out by the women in their congregation by hiring a woman who is equipped, formally or informally for ministry, pastors gain an advocate for theologically sound content. Adding a qualified woman to your ministry team gives you a theological ally who can vet resources and possibly curate theologically robust curriculum of her own, she’ll be able to support the theological vision of the church in areas of ministry less visible to the pastoral staff, by guiding women toward a deeper understanding of God’s Word in both formal and informal settings. This is not saying that pastor, you’re in charge of the men of your church and you have to hire a woman to pastor the women of your church. That’s a deeply unhelpful way of framing it. But why Melissa and Courtney? I’ll just start with you. Courtney, Why could it be a valuable thing for churches to consider creative ways that they could have women serve in a staff role?

Courtney Doctor

Well, I think the the value is So multiple. I mean, there are so many ways to enter into that conversation, but the one that you know you’re kind of honing in on here is having that ally in those theological conversations as they relate specifically to women. So we know that any of the Ministries of the church, so youth ministry, children’s ministry, Men’s Ministry, women’s ministry, they are not a replacement for the weekly gathering, right? That is the preaching of the word. That is going to be the most important moment of the week for every person in the church. But then there are these ways that we take the gospel that’s being preached, and we contextualize them to these specific groups within the church, of which women are one of those groups. And so to have a woman that is theologically minded, that can help you just keep your ear to the ground at the end, that can minister appropriately to the women in the church, and that the women then see what it looks like for a woman to handle the gospel and for her to be able to rightly divide the word and to whether that’s in discipleship or small group facilitation or actually upfront teaching in a women’s Bible study, there are so many ways that it benefits both the pastor and the leadership, but also the women in the church. And so looking for those women in your church to identify and to equip and to speak into and to help train and to sort of raise up is I think, a key component of of helping to pastor and shepherd the people that are in your care. Melissa, what would you add to that?

Melissa Kruger

Everything that you just said, and I would also say a lot of people are in church plants and smaller churches where maybe it’s not an option to hire someone but, but even if the encouragement from a pastor to say, Hey, I. You know, Janet, I know you are so theologically minded. Will you help me as we’re picking curriculum for women, because I know you read with a lot of discernment, and I would love your help in that. Could you help me figure out, you know, 10 good Bible studies maybe that the women’s ministry could do, I’m telling you, that would encourage a woman so much to feel like, wow. He sees that I care about this stuff. He knows that this is really important to me. And we actually, we did these quarterly gatherings where our pastor would come, it would be on a different topic each time, and it was just a setting of all women and the pastor. And one of the ones we did was actually on bad Christian books that might sound really negative, so I’m sorry, but that’s what we did it on. And we actually pulled quotes. We just pulled the quotes. We didn’t even actually say where they were from. And the whole process that we did with him was we’d read the quote and then discuss in small groups what’s the problem with that quote. And so in a way, our pastor was then training the women to be discerning, not just creating an X list. You know, it’s easy to be like, Oh, this is the list of bad books or whatever. Don’t read this. I don’t want women to be afraid of books. I want them to actually be able to read it and discern for themselves. Hey, this isn’t good. So obviously, this gets back to Courtney’s point. You know a pastor is preaching every Sunday that is an investment that’s going to help these women be discerning readers. But I do think when pastors see women in their church who they know are theologically minded and ask for that help and that guidance. It can do a lot to spur this on, this partnership on, and it’s a benefit, I think, to the pastor, and then that woman, at the same time, feels really encouraged in her role at the church

Courtney Doctor

well. And just to tag on that Melissa, something, you just said it like his availability, that he made himself available once a quarter to meet with these women. And so that’s first of all access, and I think that that’s something that can be really hard to have when you’re talking about men and women in the church. And so the fact that he made himself available for conversation, and so, you know, we’ve said before, you can always tell anybody’s priorities by looking at their budget and their calendar. And so he was making time in his calendar to say, this is important and it’s conversational. So again, it wasn’t just saying, Don’t read these books. It was saying, let’s together. It showed he knew what books were being read and needed to be discussed. That’s a really beautiful way to to partner and to shepherd the women in your church by being available because access, I would say that is a huge hindrance, whether it’s women on staff or women in your church access to and she can’t go grab drinks with, or she can’t just, you know, go golf with, and so, so making yourself available in ways that women have access To conversation, I think that so many women love that, and it’s, it’s encouraging sharpening and pastoral.

Matt Smethurst

And Melissa, you mentioned the the preaching event on on Sundays, as you didn’t quite use this, this phraseology, but as being the, you know, the the most important weekly discipleship event in any member’s life, essentially, not just for women, but but for the men as well. But then, of course, there’s wisdom. There’s value in going deeper in other subsets of the church, such as the women getting together. How would you respond? And I want to frame this conversation, positively, but I think it would serve pastors to just respond to a potential objection or uneasy feeling that we do encounter sometimes as pastors, where it may not be explicitly stated like this, but the impression one can get From well meaning sister in the church, preaching, that’s fine, corporate worship, that that’s all. That’s good. I come on Sundays, but I have to get my real discipleship from someone who really gets me and that can’t be my pastor, that can’t be the sermon, because he’s a guy. How would you respond to that mentality?

Melissa Kruger

I would say, I mean, I believe in both instances, it’s the word that’s doing the work, the word being preached. It’s not the person even in that role doing it. I think that’s what they’re proclaiming. And so in in all instances, I mean, Mike and I were just yesterday morning talking about how the word discerns it’s living. It was this part we were reading the passages, living and active, discerning the thoughts, like it’s doing something in us that is supernatural. So in some ways, I would say we’re we know we’re called to be in church. Every Sunday, do not give up a habit of meeting together. That’s the primary place that we need to be every week. And I actually always say to women, you know, and sometimes women’s ministry leaders don’t love this. I’m like, it is extra for them to come to the Bible study. It’s not a requirement, cuz some women’s ministry leaders will want every woman in that church at that Bible study. And I’m like, actually, they need to be at the church service on Sunday. That’s the primary place. They’re going to hear the word taught. They’re going to take communion. They’re going to have these means of graces that they don’t get anywhere else. That’s where, you know, that’s where you need to hit that this is the most important thing. But then, I mean, I am a huge advocate for women studying God’s Word together, and that’s a wonderful place for discipleship to happen. And we hear Paul talking to Titus saying, older women train the younger women. This is really important for you to be doing. So I would say it’s important. The one thing I say is necessary is the church service every week, and you always want to uphold that,

Matt Smethurst

yeah, no, that’s good. And so on the more positive level, what are some benefits you all have seen and experienced from gender specific learning environments, not as a replacement for the main gathering, but as a supplement? Yeah,

Courtney Doctor

it is. It is an opportunity to contextualize it specifically to women. And that isn’t that what the gospel does throughout all ages, right? We don’t change the gospel. The gospel is ancient and historic and unchanging, and yet is contextualized in every generation and in every culture. And so women’s ministry is just a way to contextualize the gospel in this generation for women, for a specific gender. And so it’s it’s beautiful. The applications can be spot on. They can be more specific. We can identify with certain struggles and challenges in life that are unique to women, but also, and you know, Melissa, you’ve said this before too, where women are are less likely, statistically, not every woman. This is not a broad brush comment, but, but, but as a whole, women are less likely to speak up and to answer a question in a mixed gender environment. They are more intimidated in that environment. And so if we understand that that conversation and dialog and answering questions as part of how we learn then, then doing that in a space, in a way that allows everybody to participate, is really important. It’s it’s really not any different when we think about why we do it specifically with men or with with high schoolers or with youth. I mean, there’s just ways that the gospel needs to be the same. Gospel needs to be explained and fleshed out and applied

Ligon Duncan

to circle back to something that Melissa and Courtney said about the pastor making a place and a priority on his calendar. Let me just thank Donna for doing something for me early on at the church, I was 35 years old, I didn’t understand a lot of things about ministry when I started at first press Jackson. And one of the things that Donna did was invite me to do part of the teacher training for the women in the church, Bible studies. And as I mentioned to you before, that was a big deal. There were hundreds of women coming every week. They would pick, they might do the book of James one year, or they might do the book of Hebrews one year, and I would do an overview of the material that they were getting ready to go through, and I would work with the Bible teachers themselves. And by doing that, I didn’t realize it, but what Donna was setting me up for was to send a really important message to the women that were taking their time, busy women. They had lives and families to take care of, but they thought it was important to teach the Bible to to other women. It was saying to them, the pastor cares about what you’re doing. The pastor thinks this actually matters. It. It allowed me to cultivate relationships with those women that were that they were women that were held in esteem in the eyes of other women in the congregation. And Donna did me a huge favor in in doing that. And that’s an example when you when you have a godly woman that that’s your advocate, you know, she can set you up to do things that you would never think to do on your own that end up really mattering in the church. So that’s, that’s one thing that I would, I would add to to what you’ve just been saying, and

Matt Smethurst

that’s good when you have a sister in the church you implicitly trust, because it’s never a helpful thing when the pastor is having to micromanage someone, that’s likely a sign of pride and insecurity in him. And yet, you do want it to be the kind of working partnership to where the pastor is not just saying, oh, women’s been a. Just kind of get this off my desk. I’m going to give it to this person, and I hope it takes care of itself. No, you’re not micromanaging, but you are overseeing, encouraging, equipping, checking in, asking for updates, so that the sisters who are helping disciple the women don’t just kind of feel forgotten about like they’re on an island. Melissa, you you have a lot of experience, not only serving on staff yourself in churches, but also talking to working with other women who have done the same thing. And I know all all churches, all situations are different, but just what are some either lessons learned or just some general advice you would give to pastors who maybe are in a position with the resources in their church to bring a woman on staff, or even if not, as you said earlier, to just maybe tap one or two sisters in the church to help lead the discipleship efforts among the women. What are some words of wisdom or caution you would give to a group of elders thinking through that?

Melissa Kruger

Yeah, I think, well, if I’m talking to a pastor who, let’s say he has just hired a woman on staff, and you know, they’re so excited about that, I actually met with three pastors in town. It was a church I don’t go to. They said we’d love to talk. We want to hire this woman. And they sent me the job description, and the first thing I said was, Are you hiring four people? Because this is a lot, so even just remember, sometimes she’s limited in what she can do. And I think we would all say this, the pastors and the elders are still called to shepherd the whole flock. She can assist and maybe give some wisdom in that. But I always really tried to continually tell women, you should talk to your elder about that, you know, pointing them back to their session. That’s how our church was laid out. Sorry, every person had an elder. So that might not be true in every context. So I realized that could be different, so that we don’t get that separate silo. But the other thing I would say is maybe on a staff team, she might be the only woman in the room sometimes, and it can be intimidating for her to speak up. So sometimes, if it’s about something that’s happening in the life of the church, taking just a moment to say, Hey, Sarah, can you tell us? Do you have any thoughts on that? Because she might not know. Am I supposed to say something is that? Is that taking over, if I contribute here, but really taking the time to let her know you value her opinion and would love to hear from her. I think that’s just a little thing to pause and say, Hey, we want to hear what you have to say that can just help her feel like she knows her place on a staff team. Because sometimes it can be really intimidating in those contexts. And I’ve seen, I’ve seen pastors do that really well. And I was like, Oh, that makes me feel like I’m wanted here, and, you know, needed here. And I it kind of gives them the on ramp to know how to be in a staff meeting or something like that. Back

Courtney Doctor

to your point, Melissa, like, look for ways to partner so that these are not siloed things. And I think that’s then more the danger for the larger church. I think larger churches, women’s ministry, can become more siloed because, and I think it starts off as trust, like I trust this woman to go and take and do this ministry over here, but then it becomes lack of knowledge and lack of partnership in it. Where middle sized churches they there’s more partnership required to do these things, but in larger churches, I think that’s how the silo can happen. I actually was on staff at a larger church, and I remember one of the elders stopping in, and he was trying to be encouraging. He leaned his head in my office, and he said, I hear you’re doing a great job. I don’t know what you’re doing, but I hear you’re doing a great job. And I thought that is not encouraging, like, Thank you, but, but I want you to know and so, so, you know, women need to constantly be inviting the pastors and the elders into whether that’s, hey, can you come teach? Can you come Shepherd? Can you come partner with me in this. But pastors need to be reaching out and saying, How can I actually support the work of ministry that’s being done, and that keeps it from being siloed and off and doing its own thing? So kind of depends on what size church it is.

Ligon Duncan

One thing I’d mention Matt in just in interacting with what Courtney just said is that there are certain areas where pastors are looking not to poke their noses, because they fear that controversy may come with it. One area would be choir and music ministry. And there are a lot of pastors and their their attitude is, I don’t want to know what’s going on over there. I want to have no opinion about that. I just let them do their thing, and I’m going to stay out another area is often women’s ministry, because there’s a fear that if I get involved there, there could be controversy. And again, my partnership with Donna helped me so much, and I think I helped her too. I think she experienced a little bit of what. Courtney is talking about with people not knowing what she was doing or trying to do. She had studied under the great Norman Harper at reformed Theological Seminary, who was sort of the father of the Christian education movement in the Reformed Church in the southern United States back in the 1960s and 70s. And so she was theologically trained, and we were on the same page, and I knew that I could trust her, but she also knew that I would back her up when she was going to have to stick her finger into an area that was going to be potentially touchy, and so we could support one another that way, it kept me from sort of flying in and making pronouncements as the pastor and making it look like, you know, I’ve got to come in and tell the women what to do and what not to do, and what they can read and what they can’t read and what curriculum they should use and what they shouldn’t use. She could do that work knowing that I cared and knowing that I was going to back her up. And so again, the partnership there made both of our jobs easier, and I think we did a better job for the people that we were serving. And so I you know, one thing I would say is pastors and elders sometimes have the attitude that Courtney just said, because they’re afraid of getting into an area where there could be controversy, and we have to own that. And then you have to figure out, how are we going to how are we going to work through that? So if you’re a pastor out there and you’ve just thought, I’m not going to touch it, because I don’t want to just bear in mind that the more you know what all of your staff is doing, the more supportive you can actually be of them, because all of us want people to care what we’re doing. You know, the pastoral care guy wants you to care what he’s doing, the music guy wants you to care what he’s doing, the women’s ministry, the the nursery, everybody wants somebody to care what they’re doing. One thing we can do as pastors is just care. That’s all you just care. Care about what’s going on in the other places. Melissa,

Courtney Doctor

you’ve kind of given a rubric before that has been so helpful. And you were talking about when you were on staff at a church, and you talk about the difference between being watched versus being seen. Can you explain that? Because it just really was helpful for me.

Melissa Kruger

Yeah, it was actually something I really experienced. And I’ve, I’ve told Kathy Keller this actually from, from Tim, I feel like he had this way of seeing people. He noticed them. And I can remember this time, you know, he just whereas there are some people who make you feel watched, it’s like you just you sit in a in a setting, and you feel like they’re watching, and they’re just ready for me to make a mistake. And so what encouragement to pastors you know, as you work with women or men in your church, whatever they might be doing in the life of the church, if they a watch feeling is, I only get called when I’m in trouble, you know, when, when the phone rings, you’re like, I know I did something wrong. Rather, you know, a pastor who really sees his congregates and whatever they’re doing, they come up, you know, on a Sunday morning and they said, Oh, I heard that. Yeah, you’re really helping with that outreach next week. How can we be praying for that that makes you feel so seen as a person, when whatever you’re doing, when someone says that, where’s this there’s this other feeling you get of, yeah, what Bible study are you doing? It? It’s asked in a way that you’re not trustworthy. Rather than, Hey, I see the work you’re doing, I want to encourage you in it. So for all of us, you know, as we love each other in the body, I think having that vision to see others and encourage each other while it is still today, I’m so big on man, if we see people doing good things in the kingdom, let’s encourage them, having the eyes to see what’s going well in our congregation and remembering to say, keep going, sister, that means so much. The pastor’s words in the pulpit mean so much. But man, your words in the hallway, they mean a ton. I can’t tell you how much ministry can be spurred on from a pastor just saying, I see you. I’m so thankful you’re doing that and I’m cheering you on. It’s, it’s unbelievable what you can spur on. I

Courtney Doctor

even wondered when Lincoln, when you were talking about Donna and even her predecessor, if it was a pastor that invited them into that space to say, I see some gifts in you, and we could use you in the church. I know that’s my story at two different churches. It was a pastor that first said, you know, hey, do you want to co teach a class with me? It was a an adult education Wednesday night class. And, you know, he invited me into that space. And then, kind of. Taught me how to do it, and it just, it just means the world, doesn’t it? When, when you are seen,

Matt Smethurst

I’m struck by Romans 16, for example, and all the women that Paul names and publicly commends. And so when it comes to commending, encouraging the sisters in our church, this is something, yes, you can do privately, but also you can do it publicly. You can you can do it from the pulpit, identifying evidences of grace in in various men and women in your church who are serving well. And it’s just a way to to model that kind of honor that the gospel produces, a gospel mentality produces as we’re aware of what the Spirit is doing in and among us as we kind of wrap up this episode, I’d like to just end with with any practical ideas that you would commend to brothers consideration as they’re listening to this when they think about women’s ministry,

Courtney Doctor

I would say, just ask equip and partner. Those would be my my three words that I would say to my brothers. And so, if the pastor’s job is to equip the saints for the work of ministry, just even what you were saying, women are necessary and essential to the work of ministry, it’s the active proclamation of the gospel going to all the ends of the earth. And so, so ask women to step into those places of of where they can serve. Like, say, Oh, you would be really good at that. Like, I would like to have you serve in this way and to partner with the mission and vision and values of the church in this particular way, and then look for ways to equip them. So, you know, I said that Pastor co taught a class with me, and that was a wonderful way of equipping me. Send them to conferences and cohorts. Make room in your budget to send women to things that will further equip them. Pay for seminary training, look for ways to equip them and then partner with them in ministry and so, you know, work together. I worked with my pastor to coordinate his sermon series with the women’s Bible study so that I was helping support what he was doing. But that took coordination on our part. It took conversations about where he was going with that and how I could best work with him. Write Bible studies together, have the pastor come in and teach some of the women’s Bible studies. Give good feedback if she’s learning to teach, help her learn to teach. There are just so many ways that that we can partner together in the work of ministry in the local church, and the pastors just play such a huge role in that. Melissa, what would you say?

Melissa Kruger

Yeah, one thing that you just said about equipping. I know, our church, for years, offered how to teach the Bible class. Mike taught it. I sat through it multiple times. I learned something new every time it was for men and women. It was just, it was just a Sunday school class, and everybody could come to it. And it was a great environment, you know, to learn. So just, I mean, if I could just encourage have Christian education ongoing in your church in general that helps both men and women to be able to continually grow. But I would also say one of the things we started doing with our women’s ministry team once a year. And this could be done more often, but I think at least once a year, we started just having a luncheon at the church with the women’s ministry team and the elders, and it was really a lovely time. It was just a time where we all got to just sit at tables and share a meal together. We’d have some questions at the table, what are your biggest concerns about what’s happening in the church right now? And just have the discussion to hear from each other about what’s going on. It was just a really nice conversation time to have, because the elders are obviously leading the church, and they love the church, and these women who are serving on this committee love the church, and it was just a way to have that time, to have a conversation among men and women who both really care about the life of the church and are volunteering a lot, and that was just a really practical way we saw relationship building. And it, I think it, I think it helped us as women to really understand, oh, the elders are really hoping to encourage evangelism this year. How can we do that? Then, in what we’re doing, you know, how can we make sure that’s part of our Bible study that we talk about sharing your faith, or whatever it might be, it was just a great time for collaboration together. And so that’s just been one really practical way I saw be be helpful, something that

Ligon Duncan

I’ve heard both Courtney and Melissa say, assure that the curriculum that you’re using in the context of women’s ministry is rich in biblical and theological content, no fluff, lots of robust content, doesn’t mean that it needs to be impractical or un applicable. The more rich biblical and theological it is, the more applicable and practical it’s going to be, but that is one area where. Where we can really serve the women of our congregation well by making sure that we’re doing a good job of that. And then for those of us who are pastors or elders, make sure that we know what’s going on in the ministry and that we are supporting them in prayer and in encouragement.

Melissa Kruger

That’s great. Can I piggyback on one thing you just said, Lincoln, especially for someone, I’m picturing somebody who’s a pastor of a small church, and you’re thinking, there are so many resources out there for women. Subscribe to our women’s newsletter at TGC. We try to put forth. We have the time to read a lot of these books and find Bible studies. We’re trying to constantly put forth good things. And so it might just be a resource, even for a pastor out there who just wants to make sure women in his church have good resources. That’s what we’re trying to share through that newsletter. It’s once a month. It’s not a burden, but it might just give you some books to look out for and say, Oh, this might be good for my women, you know. So if you don’t have someone on staff to help with that. We’re trying to do that work as best we can. And I

Matt Smethurst

would just underscore that it’s kind of been a theme throughout much of this episode, that pastor, you are responsible for the theological development and the biblical literacy of the entire sheet pin that Jesus has entrusted to you Colossians, 316, is not just addressed to the men in the church, but to every church member. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly so that you can teach and admonish with all wisdom. Therefore, Pastor, it’s it’s your job to ensure that the word of Christ is dwelling richly in the people that have been entrusted to our care, the people Hebrews 1317, says that we will one day stand before the living God and give account for and this includes all of the wonderful sisters and all the gifts they bring to our church that the Lord has given us to steward, to help them not merely feel permitted to do things, but actually pursued and encouraged as we together do the work of ministry. Any final comments before on anything we’ve discussed?

Melissa Kruger

Can I say one thing, Matt, the image I like to give it, I was actually reminded of it when ligand was talking about Donna singing in the choir. The image I like to give of the church is a choir. And I love when you know you’re singing an old hymn, and they have just the women sing, and then I love when they have just the men sing, but then there’s this moment when the whole choir joins in and they sing together, and there’s this glory. I mean, it’s just, it’s just robust, and it’s better because you have the distinctions. It’s beautiful to hear what women sound like. It’s beautiful to hear what men sound like, but when they’re all together, it just glorifies God. And I think that’s the heart that we all have, is that yes, there are beautiful distinctions, and they’re both wonderful and but there’s a robustness when they all sing together, and that’s what we hope the church looks like, not just on Sunday morning in the choir, but as we live our life

Matt Smethurst

and in an age of so much gender confusion, what a beautiful, striking, compelling picture of how God has made men and women to be different yet to partner together in the work of his mission. Thank you all for joining us today, Melissa and Courtney, and for all the good work that you all do. We pray God’s blessings on your deep dish podcast and the years to come. Thank you pastors for tuning in to this episode of the everyday pastor. We hope it’s been encouraging to you and will equip you to better encourage and disciple the women in your church, please take a moment to leave us a review so that we can continue getting the word out and helping pastors find fresh joy in the work of ministry.