Preparing Believers to Suffer

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0:00:00 – (Ligon Duncan): When I have somebody come in and they’re just hanging on, I’m thinking, lord, thank you. That they’re just hanging on. You know, that’s you. That they’re just hanging on.

0:00:08 – (Matt Smethurst): That’s the victorious Christian life.

0:00:09 – (Ligon Duncan): That is the victorious Christian life. You know, they’re hanging on, Lord. They have not turned their back on you. They’ve not given up. They still want to trust you. They still want to feel whole again. They’re not there yet, but they hadn’t given up. Praise God, that that is the case.

0:00:30 – (Matt Smethurst): Welcome back to the Everyday Pastor, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition on the nuts and bolts of ministry. My name is Matt Smethers.

0:00:37 – (Ligon Duncan): And I’m Lig Duncan.

0:00:38 – (Matt Smethurst): And we’re going to be thinking in this episode about the reality that life is tragic. Ever since Genesis, chapter three, we have been living and walking through the rubble and wreckage of Eden. And suffering, therefore, is something that every single person in our church either is about to experience, is in the middle of experiencing, or will experience sometime soon. So as you reflect on your longtime ministry as a pastor, how did you prepare your people to suffer?

0:01:15 – (Ligon Duncan): Well, one is to ground them in the reality that suffering is a universal experience to be expected. I mean, part of preparing people to expect suffering is to prepare them to expect suffering. And what I mean by that, tautological, I guess, is that we can know that there is suffering in the world. We can know that we have experienced suffering. We can be dealing with our experience of suffering. We can be dealing with our experience of suffering theologically and still be surprised by suffering.

0:01:52 – (Matt Smethurst): Which is why Peter in 1st Peter 4 has to say, don’t be surprised, right?

0:01:57 – (Ligon Duncan): And so I think part of that is getting folks in the mode, because I think most of the time when especially acute seasons of suffering happen, we are taken aback. We’re caught off guard. Even if we know a theology of God’s providence, we believe in the sovereignty of God. We’ve experienced suffering in our life. We can be taken off guard. So I think one thing I’m trying to do is help people be prepared for that initial shock surprise that sometimes happens in moment of. So that we can be in the mode of, this is what God made me for. This is what God has been building me for.

0:02:43 – (Ligon Duncan): This is an opportunity. This is not, oh, no, everything has gone wrong. Everything that I ever believed is not true. It’s. This is what everything I’ve ever believed is preparing me for. And so that’s one thing. And so there are lots of sayings about this. The Puritan saying You’ve probably heard it before. I’m not even sure which puritan it was that God had one son without sin, but none without suffering.

0:03:12 – (Ligon Duncan): So just getting into the mindset that this is not a surprise, partly because so many people that have faith crises and walk away from the faith will do so, and suffering will have a role in it. You know, Bart Ehrman is a name that I bet a lot of our people have heard. His rejection of God is very much rooted in the experience of suffering that friends of his went through. And so you can find a lot of people that have been shaken in their faith because of suffering. And what happens is they will draw a line from that suffering to God and question God’s goodness or God’s sovereignty, rather than recognizing that all suffering in this world is not due to a failure of God’s goodness or a failure of God’s sovereignty, but our failure of sin. The sin of Adam and Eve created a world in which there was suffering as a consequence of their rebellion against God.

0:04:16 – (Ligon Duncan): Now, our suffering may not be the consequence of our sin. It may be the consequence of somebody else’s sin, but all suffering in this world is related to that human rebellion. And what happens is people will question God rather than recognize. In a fallen world, until God removes sin, there will always be suffering. And so suffering in this world doesn’t disprove God. It actually proves what the Bible says about God.

0:04:49 – (Ligon Duncan): And so, as Christians, I want to know what do I need to do and especially believe in this season of suffering? How do I want to respond to it? How. How do I want to make the most of the suffering that I am going through? And the point being is, you don’t want to waste, whether it’s the suffering of cancer or the suffering of the loss of a child, the suffering of the loss of a parent, the suffering of the loss of a spouse, or whatever. The trouble is, you don’t want that to be wasted in your life.

0:05:24 – (Ligon Duncan): You want to get out of that what you know that God intends for good. He tells you that he makes everything to work together for good. That doesn’t mean that everything is good. And it doesn’t mean that we should be glib about suffering. But he is determined to force everything in this world to serve the interests of those who love him. And so, as a believer, one thing I want to do is I want to think, okay, Lord, I know you have purposes in this for me. They’re purposes of grace. They’re not purposes to harm me, to destroy me.

0:06:03 – (Ligon Duncan): They’re purposes they’re good purposes for me. I want to know. So as a pastor, I want to get my people attuned to that.

0:06:11 – (Matt Smethurst): I’m happy that you noted that suffering causes some people to walk away from God. But you said, actually suffering can be an argument for God. And part of that is because suffering, the fact that it does feel so unnatural, indicates that we were not made for a world with suffering.

0:06:35 – (Ligon Duncan): Right?

0:06:37 – (Matt Smethurst): So turn on a documentary about the animal kingdom and you’re not going to see the the same response to suffering in nature, red and tooth and cloth. But for those of us who are made in the image and likeness of God, who were made for fellowship with God in a perfect world, suffering though it is in a fallen world, normal, it’s still not natural and it’s not permanent. We look forward and there’s something in us that testifies to this reality that we are aching for the world, the kind of world for which we were made. And I think just reminding people of that, that’s why Paul can use adjectives that, apart from Christian theology, would be downright insulting.

0:07:24 – (Matt Smethurst): He can look at someone in the throes of pain, holding their stillborn child and say, light and momentary. 2 Corinthians 4. What audacity to call our suffering light and momentary. Or Peter in 1 Peter 1 says, you’ve had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials for a little while. It’s like, what are you talking about, Peter? For a little while? How about the whole last year? How about the whole last decade? How about a lifetime of pain?

0:07:51 – (Matt Smethurst): But in light of our eternal future, that ocean of eternity and pleasure with God, it really is just a drop.

0:07:58 – (Ligon Duncan): And the only thing I would add to that, all of which is very important and one, is that you’ve pointed to, you can’t understand this life as a believer unless you understand God’s eternal purposes. And that’s one reason Paul will say, if we only have hope in God in this life, we are of all people most miserable. Because the Christian hope demands an expectation of the new heavens and the new earth. And so pain does need to be seen in that light. And that’s why it can be said to be light and momentary.

0:08:32 – (Ligon Duncan): The other thing that we have going for us is we do not believe that there is meaningless suffering for a believer. And that’s what our unbelieving friends, I don’t know how they do it, because if you really don’t believe, you really don’t believe that there is a God who has purposes and good purposes in this world, then not only is everything meaningless, one of the everythings that’s meaningless is your suffering.

0:09:00 – (Ligon Duncan): It means absolutely, it just happened. It’s for no purpose. It serves no greater end. It’s meaningless. No believer has to face his or her suffering that way to know. I know that my God is going to make even this serve me because he doesn’t allow his children to go through things that are meaningless. And instilling that kind of confidence is also important. Right.

0:09:30 – (Matt Smethurst): And when we think about preparing our people to suffer, we have to understand that some of our people are thinking about suffering, perhaps even struggling with doubts about God on kind of an intellectual level.

0:09:43 – (Ligon Duncan): Yeah.

0:09:44 – (Matt Smethurst): And of course, there are others locked in the throes of pain who are just crying out, how long, O Lord? For those who are doubting the goodness of God more intellectually, I do think it’s worth asking them questions like, so you’re saying. Are you saying that just because you can’t think of a good reason why God would allow this, that there can’t be one?

0:10:09 – (Ligon Duncan): Right.

0:10:10 – (Matt Smethurst): Of course the person’s going to backpedal and say, well, of course. That’s what I mean, not what I mean. But then we say, well, okay, well, by definition, if he’s God, then there are going to be things that fit into his mind that don’t fit into ours. But here’s where you can have hope, even if. And this is where this bleeds into talking to the person who’s actually in pain. We can say to them, I may not know the reason for your suffering. Right. You may not know the reason for your suffering in this life, but we can know for sure what the reason is not. The reason is not that God doesn’t love you.

0:10:47 – (Matt Smethurst): And how do we know that? Because he sent his only begotten son to plunge himself into our pain, to identify with us to the point of being forsaken, taken on a Roman cross. No other God in any other religion, philosophy, or worldview is like that. Only the Christian God in Christ has scars. And that’s ultimately the hope we hold out for our people. So, lig thinking again, just pastorally about preparing people to suffer, what are some categories that you would encourage pastors to regularly teach on?

0:11:23 – (Matt Smethurst): We’ve already referenced, say, the fallenness of this world and the suffering that comes with that. But are there other kind of building blocks that you’d want to establish so that someone can be prepared for pain?

0:11:35 – (Ligon Duncan): One is just providence in suffering. That is the idea that God’s watch care does not just extend to the good Things in our life. It extends to the worst things in our life. Genesis 50:20 is the classic example of that. Joseph, his brothers have hated him since he was a teenager. They planned to kill him, but ended up selling him into slavery. Eventually, he and his brothers are united and they feel very guilty about what they’ve done. And they feel like, oh, he’s gonna take his shot at us. He’s gonna get back at us for doing this. And he famously says, you meant this for evil. I know your plans against me. They were evil, but God meant it for good.

0:12:21 – (Matt Smethurst): Let me just interrupt you for one moment. I think so many evangelicals in our churches read that verse as if it says, you meant it for evil, but God used it for good. It’s a stronger word than used. You meant it for evil and with as much intention as you meant it for evil. He intended it. He meant it for good.

0:12:45 – (Ligon Duncan): Good point to highlight, and that’s what I do want to get across to people, that these things are not just allowed. God doesn’t just let them happen. He has purposes for good, even in human beings. Purposes for evil for his people. And look, that is a category that a lot of our people have to face. We will have plenty of people in our churches who have been the victims of human evil. And one thing I want them to realize is that they are never just a victim.

0:13:24 – (Ligon Duncan): That there is a powerful, loving heavenly father who will demand that everything in this life eventually serve their best interests. And I may not know it, just like you were saying a few minutes ago, as a pastor, I don’t know all the reasons why God is doing what he’s doing. And I’m never going to claim that in the life of a believer. But all of us need to believe, because the Bible tells us to believe it, that God is at work even in those things. And that is just something that happens over and over in the Bible. Think of Job.

0:14:00 – (Ligon Duncan): God says to Satan, have you considered my servant Job? Satan does not come to God and say, hey, I’d like a crack at Job. And so over and over in the Bible, God’s providence extends even to the pain and suffering that we experience. And he has purposes. And Job, you know, Job may never have known the things that we know about how that story played out, but he does say at the end of the book, I had heard of you, but now I’ve seen you. And so he could.

0:14:36 – (Ligon Duncan): He might not have known the things that we know because we read the book, but if we had been with him at the end, he could have said, matt, I thought I knew the living God. I had never seen how glorious he was until I went through what I went through. And I’ve had that testimony from so many Christians who’ve gone through awful things. And they’ve been able to say to me humbly, not in a spirit of arrogance, I had no idea who God was until I went through that. And now I know. I know because he was there with me. He revealed Himself to me. I know that he loves me.

0:15:14 – (Ligon Duncan): I wouldn’t have chosen that in a million different worlds. But now I wouldn’t trade it for anything, because I have known and seen the living God in a way that I had never known him before. And I’ve. I’ve just had too many people give me that testimony in life. And it’s, you know, you always feel like you’re on holy ground when somebody is sharing something like that. And as a pastor, I want more of my congregation to experience that than less.

0:15:42 – (Matt Smethurst): Yeah. And the story of Job. What an opportunity to remind our people that we see more than Job could, because we know the ultimate innocent sufferer, as has been said, you know, why do good things happen to bad people? That only happened once, and he volunteered. And because we can know and be united to Jesus Christ, we can have that confidence that even the pain in this life is like a furnace. That will either, depending on how we approach the suffering, a furnace can either burn you to a crisp or it can refine you like gold.

0:16:23 – (Matt Smethurst): And Christ’s purpose is to bring us through that furnace and not to abandon us in the flames. The flames will not set you ablaze. Isaiah says so. There’s a sense in which we’re in the heat, but the heat is not in us, meaning it can’t incinerate our love for God and His commitment to our good. And as we think about pastoring our people on Sundays, of course, not only can we prepare them for suffering through our preaching, but also through our songs.

0:16:57 – (Matt Smethurst): We’ve talked about this in a previous episode, but you know, what a wonderful.

0:17:02 – (Ligon Duncan): Way to disciple our people you just made, when you started making that point immediately, how firm a foundation popped into my mind in the little line, the flame shall not hurt thee. I only designed thy dross to consume thy gold to refine. And so much of our hymnody, the great songs of the Faith, is meant to speak to us in those moments, even when we’re singing the power of the cross or in Christ alone. As we think about the sufferings of Christ, we see our suffering in Light of the providence of God in his suffering.

0:17:40 – (Ligon Duncan): So you were right. The treasure that we have in the great songs of the church speak to us in this area. And as pastors, we wanna make sure that we’re singing some of that material, not just songs of praise to God.

0:17:56 – (Matt Smethurst): Happy clappy chippers.

0:17:58 – (Ligon Duncan): Where do you go when the world is burning down? Where do you go when you’re in the pit? Where do you go when you’re in the fire? We’ve gotta have some of that material in the sung praise of the church.

0:18:09 – (Matt Smethurst): Well, we have it in the psalter.

0:18:10 – (Ligon Duncan): We do.

0:18:11 – (Matt Smethurst): And there’s so many wonderful songs that can be sung congregationally that are in a more minor key. In fact, this past Sunday in our church, we sang When Trials Come. We sang Dear Refuge of My weary soul, Afflicted Saint to Christ draw near. Sadly, these songs are not as well known as they should be, but they give voice, they give language to our lament in a way that I think disciples our people to suffer.

0:18:39 – (Ligon Duncan): That’s very good.

0:18:40 – (Matt Smethurst): Is there anything else you would want to commend to pastors as they. As they think about practical ways to prepare their people to face tribulation?

0:18:51 – (Ligon Duncan): Well, one is when you’re working, if you’re preaching through Bible books, never miss the opportunity to make one of the applications. When you come across the many texts in scripture that deal with suffering, make sure to relate that in application to your people. Remind them again. Notice the suffering. In this passage, Paul in Romans 8 is talking about the suffering and the groaning of the sons of God and the witness of the Holy Spirit even in that. And so don’t miss the opportunity to remind your people again. Remember, I’ve told you suffering’s coming for all of us, but when it does, we see the purposes of God.

0:19:31 – (Ligon Duncan): And so when you’re preaching through Bible text, don’t miss the opportunity to make the applications about suffering in the Christian life. Do some teaching on the theme. I mean, there have been some wonderful books written on Christian suffering in the last 30 or 40 years. Everybody from Joni Eareckson Tada to Mark Talbot to John Piper. I mean, I’ve lost count of the good books that have come out about suffering. We really have been blessed in our lifetime with some really good theological reflection on suffering.

0:20:07 – (Ligon Duncan): The other thing too is teaching people what kinds of struggles they are going to have because of suffering. The human heart responds in different ways to experiences of trial and trouble and suffering. And so to make them aware of the kinds of things sometimes people initially will do Pretty well. And then they’ll go through stages of confusion, anger, inconsolable grief, et cetera. It helped them to be prepared for the normal processes of.

0:20:51 – (Ligon Duncan): Of. And don’t be surprised when you feel like this. You’re not alone when you feel like that. That’s a very common thing for human beings to feel like that. But let’s always be in the mode of turning that back to God and thinking about that in light of God. So I think just preparing people for the experience that they’re going to have. I had a young woman in my congregation whose dad died of brain cancer when she was a teenager, and she initially did really well with it, but during college she significantly struggled with it. And I think if I could have done anything differently, Matt, I might have said, kathy, boy, I mean, the way you have responded to this has ministered to me. You’ve handled this in ways that I couldn’t have handled it.

0:21:42 – (Matt Smethurst): But.

0:21:44 – (Ligon Duncan): If you find this coming back and getting you, biting you, troubling you later on, don’t be surprised if that experience comes. And when it comes, remember that I told you that it was going to come. And don’t let the surprise of the delayed reaction get you, because sometimes the adrenaline can get you through things, and then you get through the adrenaline of things, and it’s just the grind of things that keeps you going.

0:22:12 – (Ligon Duncan): Things have to be done. I’m going to do the next thing. And then suddenly you find yourself in a place where you’ve gone through the initial shock, you’ve gotten through that trusting God. The adrenaline has kept you going, the grind has kept you going. And now you are thinking about it, and you’re really letting yourself thinking about it for the first time. And now you’re troubled by things that you had never been troubled about before.

0:22:36 – (Ligon Duncan): So if we can prepare people, there are phases to this.

0:22:39 – (Matt Smethurst): Yeah.

0:22:40 – (Ligon Duncan): And don’t be surprised when those phases come.

0:22:44 – (Matt Smethurst): I love how you pointed out that that journey, which is often going to feel like a roller coaster, you’re not just going to get over the pain or the sadness and move on forever. And just the other day I was sitting with a church member who was brokenhearted, and the spirit just kind of prompted me to turn to Psalm 40, which I just read for this member. And it’s a very interesting journey because David begins by saying, I waited patiently for the Lord.

0:23:19 – (Matt Smethurst): He inclined to me and heard my cry. He drew me up from the pit of destruction out of the miry bog and set my feet upon a rock, making my steps Secure. Now listen to how triumphant it starts to sound. He put a new song in my mouth. A song of praise to our God. Many will see in fear and put their trust in the Lord. And you’d almost expect the next words to be Amen and Amen. Go in peace.

0:23:43 – (Ligon Duncan): Yeah.

0:23:44 – (Matt Smethurst): But as you make your way through the psalm, you see that he’s up and down. And guess how he ends final words. As for me, I am poor and needy, but the Lord takes thought for me. You are my help and my deliverer. Do not delay. Oh, my God. So even there at the end, he’s still needing God to show up and carry him along. And I know you’ve taught a lot on Psalm 88, and you’ve even written a book. What’s the title?

0:24:10 – (Ligon Duncan): Sam Ahmadi helped me put that together. You and I were talking about Sam the other day, and it’s. I sometimes struggle with the title because Justin and the guys at Crossway came up with the title. I didn’t come up with the title. Mark Dever had thought up the title God in Hard Places, but they ended up calling it When Pain is Real and God Seems Silent. And it’s on Psalm 88.

0:24:35 – (Matt Smethurst): Psalm finding hope. Finding Hope in the Psalms.

0:24:37 – (Ligon Duncan): Yeah. And it’s in that. You’re right. That happens in the psalm all the time. That does also remind me that as pastors, you can’t put your people on a clock.

0:24:45 – (Matt Smethurst): Yes.

0:24:48 – (Ligon Duncan): Everybody’s going to have their own way of processing stuff, and we can’t get in the mode of Job’s comforters. Come on, buddy. Come on, hurry up. We’ve been here with you for seven days, saying nothing in sackcloth and ashes. Come on, let’s get on with it. You just can’t put people on a clock. Some people are going to suffer in different ways, and it’s going to take them a long time. And as pastors, just be there.

0:25:15 – (Ligon Duncan): Be there with them. As long as you feel like they’re able to dig their nails in and hang on, that’s a victory. Absolutely. They may feel discouraged, but when I have somebody come in and they’re just hanging on, I’m thinking, lord, thank you. That they’re just hanging on. You know, that’s. That’s you. That they’re just hanging.

0:25:37 – (Matt Smethurst): Victorious Christian life.

0:25:37 – (Ligon Duncan): That is the victorious Christian life. You know, they’re hanging on, Lord. They have not turned their back on you. They’ve not given up. They still want to trust you. They still want to feel whole again. They’re not there yet, but they hadn’t given up. Praise God, that that is the case. So, you know, as pastors, I think we get impatient. You know, there’s some of our members that move quicker in those processes and are more fully restored through them, and others that just, you know, it just.

0:26:08 – (Ligon Duncan): It’s like a, you know, it’s like, you know, the black dog of depression kind of gets on their back and they can’t let go. Just be patient because everybody’s different.

0:26:20 – (Matt Smethurst): And one thing I sometimes remind my church members of is that Jesus promised shortly before he, you know, died and rose and ascended that he would send the Holy Spirit. And of all the terms he could have used to describe the Holy Spirit, he described him as an advocate and as a comforter.

0:26:40 – (Ligon Duncan): Amen.

0:26:40 – (Matt Smethurst): Which presupposes that we’re going to need a lot of comforting.

0:26:43 – (Ligon Duncan): Amen.

0:26:44 – (Matt Smethurst): That we are going to be in a world full of sadness and grief. And you think about that vision at the end of revelation of God himself wiping every tear from our eyes and, oh, how many there will be to wipe away.

0:26:59 – (Ligon Duncan): Amen.

0:26:59 – (Matt Smethurst): But what a privilege we have as pastors to prepare our people for that great day when all of their pain, all of their sadness, all of their suffering will be swallowed up in resurrection joy.

0:27:11 – (Ligon Duncan): That’s true.

0:27:12 – (Matt Smethurst): We hope this episode of the everyday pastor has been encouraging to you. If you’re going through suffering, and certainly as you pastor others who are going through suffering themselves in this fallen world, please take a moment to leave a review so we can help other pastors find fresh joy in the work of ministry.