Remembering Death Teaches Us to Live

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0:00:00 – (Colleen Chao): We can bank on the fact that someday this will make sense, what was at stake. And he is going to outgive us more than we can fathom for whatever we lose here. Right. If you give up homes and fields and parents and children, he will give 100 times over in this life and the next. And so we bank on that.

0:00:27 – (Courtney Doctor): Welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition where we love having deep conversations about deep truths. I am Courtney Docter and today I am joined by Colleen Chow and Melissa and I heard Colleen’s story at the 2025 True Woman Conference. And we were so moved and so deeply encouraged by her that we knew we wanted to ask and see if we could share her and her story with the listeners of the Deep Dish. And Colleen, you’re going to tell us your story here in a minute. And it’s not an easy one, but what you’re doing is you’re walking it in such a way that you, you’re showing us, you’re showing really all of us how to trust God in all things, which I think is at the foundation of the Christian life.

0:01:14 – (Courtney Doctor): I think that that is what the Lord wants from us more than anything else is this ability to truly trust him. And so you’re showing us that. And so I just was telling you before we hit record what a privilege it is to have you on, to learn from you. And I’m just deeply grateful that you willing to share yourself with us. And so would you just start by telling us your story?

0:01:43 – (Colleen Chao): Yes, with joy. And it is, it’s such a joy to share this time with you. I’ll just start from singleness. There’s a long story if I started way back, but the Lord captured my heart when I was little and long story, but I ended up single much longer than I thought and then had an amazing love story that God brought me in my mid-30s and we had a child. And right around that time, my health started, just struggling big time, lots of chronic illness issues. And then my son was also born with a lot of complications, health complications.

0:02:23 – (Colleen Chao): So that was a long journey. And about six years into that, we had this little space in our parenting marriage where Jeremy and I were both feeling good and we were like, maybe we’re gonna get back to some whatever normal is, some normalcy and back to ministry, which has always been my heart. And just there was a lot of hopefulness at the end of those six weeks. I found a little lump in my right breast.

0:02:52 – (Colleen Chao): And I just, I remember I was in the shower and I I just washed and I was like, lord, there’s no way. Right? Like, after what we’ve just been through, there’s no way that this is something more than just a fluke. But indeed, after a long testing process, we found that it was cancer that was eight years ago and went through the whole chemo, double mastectomy, multiple surgeries, all the things that we’d gotten that cancer.

0:03:20 – (Colleen Chao): And then a couple years later found another little lump and then found out that it was back and it was all over and it was stage four. And that’s been the last four years. I didn’t know that I would. I didn’t think that I would live out that first year, the way things were progressing and the. The look of it all. But God has given me the gift of more days. And it is just. It’s incredible to still be here, to even share this story.

0:03:49 – (Colleen Chao): So it’s been long and crazy to. And all the ups and downs, and I’m living in that fragile place between here and heaven. The thin edge, razor’s edge, some toes in eternity, but a foot still firmly planted here. So that’s the summary.

0:04:10 – (Courtney Doctor): Well, I mean. And what a summary. So tell us how old your son is now. He’s precious, by the way.

0:04:16 – (Colleen Chao): Oh, I’m biased, but, yes, exactly. You should be. You should be.

0:04:21 – (Courtney Doctor): But he is objectively, objectively precious.

0:04:24 – (Colleen Chao): Oh, he is a gift. And he’s kind of that miracle baby. It’s. I wanted more, but God had one special guy. He’s made up for it all. And he was 9 when I got my terminal diagnosis, almost 10. And he just turned 14 this summer. It’s just a miracle. Like, I just. I find myself looking at him like, I can’t believe I’m still here for this amazing transformation into the teens.

0:04:48 – (Courtney Doctor): Praise God. Well, I. I know that we want to get into just even trusting God with our children, but before we get there, I mean, just trusting God, right? Just trusting God in all things is, like, I truly believe, the pinnacle of the Christian walk. And so you’re doing this, and you just said in your story, like, you’re standing on this razor’s edge. And so, you know where Colossians tells us to set our minds on things that are above.

0:05:19 – (Courtney Doctor): And you’re standing on the razor’s edge, looking at the things that are above. I really love that image of maybe possibly seeing it more clearly. I don’t know. But I would love for you to talk to us about that. Like, how has that happened, that you have been able to set your mind on things that are above. And I think the question everybody would ask is how did it increase your joy and your faith and your trust instead of increasing your bitterness and your resentment?

0:05:51 – (Colleen Chao): Oh my goodness. And there are those constant temptations to go that route. Right. That’s just in our humanity. And the simple overarching answer is, Jesus is so faithful and he’s just been so good to me and he’s always out given me, he’s not cheated me. The, the bigger answer is it’s a slow process. Right of I, I was the pastor’s kid, firstborn, type A. I’m gonna change the world for Jesus, woman.

0:06:26 – (Courtney Doctor): Right, right.

0:06:27 – (Colleen Chao): So I held, I was like, this is what I’m gonna do. And my fists were clenched in, out of good intentions. But God just used so many crushings over so many years, beginning in my 20s to start, you know, prying those white knuckled fingers off these little earth treasures. And I think that that moment of hearing, I don’t have many days and again, I thought it was going to be really fast at the beginning and it could be any moment now, which is so strange to live in that for several years.

0:07:05 – (Colleen Chao): But what that does is it really does release me from some of those idols and I’m just naturally a self sufficient, proud person. But when you know that you’re dispensable, it really takes the gaze off of me and the circumstances and puts them on Jesus and what lasts and what matters. And so that trust is formed in the hard places because I’m clinging to Jesus and I’m looking at him and I’m going back to him and I’m looking at him and I’m clinging and I’m in his word for dear life.

0:07:43 – (Colleen Chao): Where else would I go? You have the words of life. And so that true that trust has been germinating and steeping however you want to say it through his tender mercies to make me relinquish and just say, I don’t control anything, I can’t control a day.

0:08:04 – (Courtney Doctor): Right. So in some ways you’re living with the clearer reality that is true for all of us. It’s just maybe we can push it down or deny it when it’s not right in our face. Well, I taught on well, John 10, Jesus is the good Shepherd. Last year and as I was preparing, I was really studying Psalm 23 and one of the scholars, one of the pastors that I was studying said talking about the valley of the shadow of death. And he said, the closer or the darker the shadow the closer the shepherd.

0:08:36 – (Courtney Doctor): And have you experienced that to be true? Because it’s not just the shadow of death. We go through a lot of different dark shadows in life. And so how have you experienced, like, you’re talking about the nearness of Jesus. And I would even say, I would want our listeners to hear the realness of Jesus, like the reality of Jesus. And so how have you experienced that? Like his nearness and the reality that he’s there through this shadow.

0:09:08 – (Colleen Chao): Yes. You know, it goes Back to Psalm 73. Some of my favorite verses are in that one where it says, the nearness of God is my good. You know, what else do I have on earth? You know, in heaven? Nothing besides yous. And so that was my terrible paraphrase. But just like the nearness of God is my good, and I have. It’s been rubber meets the road, fleshing that out. And I’ve come to this picture in my heart of the shadow of death is overshadowed by the shadow of his wings. And so what you said is so true. Just that the shepherd is so near and he outdoes the heart.

0:09:53 – (Colleen Chao): He’s bigger than the heart. He’s stronger than. Than the worst moments. He’s so present. And I think for all of us, you know, cancer and terminal diagnoses don’t have the corner on the market of suffering. I think with the suffering comes the grace. He’s faithful. And so with the amount of suffering comes this huge amount of grace. That doesn’t make it easy. It doesn’t take the pain out of it. But he is more. He’s nearer, he’s stronger, he’s realer. More real. Yeah, I know.

0:10:30 – (Colleen Chao): Because. Because of what he is entrusting to each of us, he comes with that suffering. It’s an invitation into more of him.

0:10:40 – (Courtney Doctor): What you just said about the shadow of death or the shadow of suffering is outdone. Is that what you said? I want you to say that again. By the shadow of his wings.

0:10:50 – (Colleen Chao): Yes, yes. It really is he. It’s a greater shadow and it’s a safe one.

0:10:56 – (Courtney Doctor): Yes.

0:10:57 – (Colleen Chao): Right. And so we can rest, we can trust. Even if we have fear, even if we have all these other emotions, the pain doesn’t go away. It doesn’t lessen. Sometimes it gets even harder. But that. That shadow of his wings is the best place to be. And the valley of the shadow is the way under that other, bigger shadow. Right. It’s the way into more of him.

0:11:21 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah.

0:11:22 – (Colleen Chao): It’s amazing.

0:11:23 – (Courtney Doctor): It is amazing. And that’s such a beautiful way of Even thinking about the shadow of our suffering being under this greater shadow of protection. That was really beautiful. Well, again, I’m really captured by that thought of just standing on the razor’s edge between this life and actually the one that’s more real, the one that’s eternal, the one that’s totally not the shadow, but the substance. And so when you peer over that edge and you think about the new heavens and the new earth, you think about what is to come for all of us. For all of us.

0:12:03 – (Courtney Doctor): What captivates you? What is exciting about that to you? Because that helps us untether a little bit. Right. If we’re more captivated, I think that’s part of setting our minds on things that are above. So what captivates you as you peer into that place?

0:12:19 – (Colleen Chao): Yes, I think it’s this idea that it’s what I was made for. It’s what I was always made for. And that’s where everything is good and everything gets fixed and there’s nothing. There’s not a hint of bad, it’s not a hint of sorrow. Death doesn’t threaten us anymore. It’s the fullness of the presence of Jesus, which is everything we want and crave. Right. And so I think there’s that, that, you know, there’s so much I love here and especially a few people that I really love here, and I don’t want to go early. You know, that’s not, that’s not something I desire.

0:13:05 – (Colleen Chao): But what it does is it, it points me. These little, these smaller loves point me to this great love that is, it’s on the. I’m on the brink of it, of seeing face to face my first love, who’s been everything I’ve ever wanted or needed. And the fullness is coming and the goodness is going to be so much that I will need a resurrected body to handle all of the goodness. Right. We can’t handle it on this side of things. So just that anticipation, it’s not boring. It’s not clouds and harp. It’s like it’s everything we’ve ever wanted and been made for.

0:13:45 – (Colleen Chao): So that.

0:13:45 – (Courtney Doctor): And the discovery aspect of it, like totally exploration and discovery, not just of the creation, but of the Creator. I mean, there’s just totally so much like. I, I, yeah, I actually, so, so when Psalm 90:12 tells us to teach us to number our days that we may gain a heart of wisdom, I think so often we read that thinking, yeah, I need to think about the fact that, that one day, you know, one day my days will be limited, they will, they will be numbered, they will end.

0:14:15 – (Courtney Doctor): And that’s supposed to create in me this, this thing, this heart of, of wisdom. But I mean, you’ve looked that in the face more with more reality, with more clarity than most of us. And so how has that been true in your life? How has looking at the number of days and like you said, I mean, not cut short in God’s timing, but absolutely cut short in ours and in the desire of our hearts. And so what does that look like? How is that created, this heart of wisdom in you? Because it’s evident that it has.

0:14:52 – (Colleen Chao): Oh, that’s so kind of you. Because I see even this last week I’m like, I think the closer I get to eternity, the more I see my sin and my brokenness. So it’s a journey and I’m a slow learner, but I think the freedom of realizing that I am a vapor and that my, you know, the scripture has all these descriptions. One is a handspan, right? I’m just a handspan. And a few inches, just a mere few inches of vapor grass that withers overnight, flowers that fade. I mean it’s not depressing, it’s freeing because I realize the glory of God to choose me and make me his own and love me and give me everything I need for life and godliness.

0:15:43 – (Colleen Chao): This little vapor gives so much value, right? But it also keeps in perspective. I was just listening. I’ll listen to my audio Bible in the night when I can’t sleep. In Psalm 102, it talks about my strength has been broken mid course, my days are shortened, but your years never end. And so there’s this idea, this contrast when we get to kind of hold open handed our days, what that’s supposed to do. And this is multiple places in scripture where that’s the theme.

0:16:20 – (Colleen Chao): It’s supposed to put our eyes up to see. God is eternal. He sits on his throne. It says again and again, he’s on his throne, his years never end. Your word endures forever right there. All these places where that contrast is supposed to set us free. And that is my long answer to say that works wisdom in us. Because no longer are we looking to ourselves, our ministry, success, our numbers, our influence on social.

0:16:51 – (Colleen Chao): None of that. It’s really this beautiful freedom of God. You can do whatever you want with me. And as we look to him whose years never end, who sits on the throne, he works wisdom in us. And I think that’s. It’s the gaze, right? It’s our gaze.

0:17:08 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah. And untethering our hopes from the temporary things like they are fleeting, but they feel so just even as you were talking about that, and re. Anchoring them in the hope that is eternal, the hope that never ends. And to even think about that. We say that so kind of lightly, like this eternal hope, but to really think about the fact that this thing that we are hoping in actually is eternal and we are not.

0:17:39 – (Courtney Doctor): I mean, we will be. Yes, exactly. We are. Granted, we are given in Christ eternality, and that is going to be a marvelous, beautiful thing. But the things that we so often tether our hearts to are temporary.

0:17:58 – (Colleen Chao): I love how you say that. Yes.

0:18:01 – (Courtney Doctor): Oh, well, you’re teaching me. But as I’m thinking about this, I know that we talked kind of a little bit about the bitterness and the frustration that could creep in, but also, what do you do when you just. You get discouraged or fearful? When I think about Peter in getting into the water and, you know, like. And you’re just walking like you are doing it, Colleen. You’re walking on water. But there have to be times.

0:18:26 – (Courtney Doctor): There just have to be times that you feel the sinking. I mean, I just can’t fathom not. And so what do you do? What do you tell yourself? And actually, practically, like, what do you do to refocus your gaze?

0:18:44 – (Colleen Chao): I love that question, because there’s a lot of that. I am nothing special. I don’t have this figured out. It is a daily dependence of. Again, it sounds so simple, but just going back to God, Going to God, Going to God. And. And I say, go back to Him. He’s in us. He’s surrounding us. He hems us in behind him before. But that shifting of my gaze and my. My heart posture is going back to him and clinging to His Word.

0:19:18 – (Colleen Chao): And really, it starts with me pouring out my heart like water before the Lord. I think that’s Lamentations 2:19. And just no one else can handle the fullness of that. I need people. I need my people. But no one can handle the full measure of pouring out my heart like water in those fearful, discouraging moments. So he gets the first and the fullest pouring. And so as I do that, what it’s doing is it’s weaving me more and more into his heart and his purposes, and it’s attaching me even more deeply to him because I have to keep going to Him, Right? And this, again, this doesn’t have to be a terminal diagnosis. This is any suffering that makes us keep going and looking at His Word and claiming it and saying, you Say this, and I don’t feel it. I feel terrified right now.

0:20:12 – (Colleen Chao): I hate feeling the cancer growing and knowing what that means and looking at my son, looking at my husband, you know, all these things, the ministry, I have not been able to. All these things, right. And saying, I’m fearful of losing all this and of suffering more pain than I already have. Have. But I will believe you. I’m going to take you at your word. And he always honors that. It doesn’t look the same each time, but he always is true to that.

0:20:41 – (Colleen Chao): I was just reading. I’m working through the Gospels and read in Mark and Luke where two different places, two different circumstances, it says, and it was fulfilled exactly as he had said to them. And I was making all these notes like, that’s exactly what you’re doing, God. You’re doing exactly what you have said you will do for me. And I’m staking it on sticking everything on that. So it might take a while for those emotions to change. But peace comes and I’m able to get up.

0:21:11 – (Colleen Chao): And the other thing that helps is staying. I’m going to use your word, tethered, staying deeply connected to my people, my church, and doing the next thing. Like Elizabeth Elliot said, I just get up and do the next thing. And sometimes when I can’t get up, I do the next thing on my laptop or I send an encouraging note or I pray for, like, I do the next thing. And so all those things together are helping me. I don’t get to walk around the fear, but I’m walking through it with Jesus. And that’s everything.

0:21:43 – (Colleen Chao): That’s everything.

0:21:44 – (Courtney Doctor): It’s everything. Well, I love how, like, what you’re offering us is there’s this part that’s really. It’s mystical in the sense mystery in the sense of it’s God’s work in us. Like, we don’t understand how he does that. But it’s also. It’s so practical. Like, I have to go back and read the Word. And I’m also hearing, and just even at how you started your story, that you’re a woman who has been in God’s Word for a long time, you didn’t start trying to learn these truths. And so you were just a woman who was abiding in the word of God and how that abiding has turned into your foundation.

0:22:20 – (Courtney Doctor): I want to ask you, as you were talking and when you said you were in the Gospels and you’re reading, what do you do with the fact that as you’re reading the Gospels, Jesus was healing completely.

0:22:33 – (Colleen Chao): I thought that’s where you’re going.

0:22:35 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah, Many people.

0:22:36 – (Colleen Chao): Yep.

0:22:37 – (Courtney Doctor): Many people. We know he can. So what do you do? And there’s something good and right to continue to pray for that. What do you do with the fact when he says no?

0:22:51 – (Colleen Chao): I love this question, Courtney, so much. I think this is at the crux of a lot of people’s struggle around my story. What’s helped me so much is I don’t know when God made this clear to me as I. As I was looking at that very thing and journaling early on in my terminal diagnosis. Um, and what became really clear is when Jesus came, he was showing us what his kingdom would be like. And so he’s bringing in healing and freedom and all this fullness, and he’s providing for people and setting them free. And he’s showing.

0:23:30 – (Colleen Chao): This is what it looks like, right? He’s pointing to what his kingdom in the fullness is gonna look like. And then, interestingly enough, as I kept studying, I. I’m seeing this, you know, the theology of suffering of. He then calls his disciples his early church, and since then, to suffer. And that’s the way that he’s going to usher in his kingdom and all the healing and all the beauty and all the fullness and freedom.

0:24:02 – (Colleen Chao): And so I think suffering, to me, even before cancer, was a way to show the world his kingdom, because we can’t explain it, right? It’s not. It’s. So I’ve been thankful that God hasn’t healed me because I have so many people in my life who don’t know him yet, and they’re watching, and this doesn’t make sense to them. And I pray. I say, lord, I pray that they’ll have to reckon with you because of me and this story that they’ll have to, you know, as I share him with them. And I live in this mystery of why doesn’t. Why does a good God allow this to happen to one of his children?

0:24:49 – (Colleen Chao): But to say, oh, my goodness, it’s because there’s work to do and people to bring into the kingdom. So I think there was that foreshadowing of the kingdom with healing. And then the way to invite people in would be through our suffering, by faith and with joy, that doesn’t make sense to the world.

0:25:09 – (Courtney Doctor): I mean, Colleen, that is the most robust and concise theology of suffering that I think I’ve ever heard. Because what you’re doing is. You’re saying, like, yeah, the glimpses that we saw because we have so many. So not only the unbelievers in our lives that are. They don’t. This doesn’t make sense to them at all.

0:25:27 – (Colleen Chao): Right?

0:25:27 – (Courtney Doctor): I mean, because it does not make sense. Apart from Christ, like, it just doesn’t. But also our brothers and sisters who really cling to the fact that faith, if it’s big enough, it’s going to bring about the healing, right?

0:25:40 – (Colleen Chao): Totally. Totally.

0:25:41 – (Courtney Doctor): I just wanna be like, oh, my word. Exhibit A.

0:25:44 – (Colleen Chao): Look at Colleen Tao.

0:25:45 – (Courtney Doctor): I mean, the faith is so evident and so beautiful and so big. And it’s the faith in actually God’s goodness and God’s character and God’s plan and God’s kingdom. Not in this. Only faith if he does what we want him to do, or faith that we think somehow obligates God, but instead, like your faith doesn’t obligate God, but it glorifies God. And that’s just a beautiful, beautiful display. So thank you. I know that was. I kind of threw you a curveball on that one, but wow, I’m so glad.

0:26:18 – (Colleen Chao): I’m so glad I did because it’s at the heart of a lot of this. Right?

0:26:22 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah.

0:26:23 – (Colleen Chao): For all of us. For all of us.

0:26:24 – (Courtney Doctor): For all of us. For all of us. Well, I don’t wanna do it, but let’s take a little break and hear an ad from our sponsor. And then we’re gonna come back and we’re going to really talk about how you’re navigating this as a mom and a wife. And again, just. Thank you.

0:26:42 – (Colleen Chao): Thank you, Courtney.

0:26:44 – (Courtney Doctor): Well, welcome back. We just continue to be grateful to be having this conversation. So as we talk about suffering and you talked, how old was your son when. I don’t know if you want us to say his name, so I’m being.

0:26:58 – (Colleen Chao): Careful, but how old Jeremy is?

0:26:59 – (Courtney Doctor): Jeremy. I know his name. I just didn’t want to say it.

0:27:02 – (Colleen Chao): You’re fine. How old.

0:27:03 – (Courtney Doctor): Remind me, how old was Jeremy when you were diagnosed? 9. Is that what you said?

0:27:07 – (Colleen Chao): So the first time he was 6. And then with terminal diagnosis he was 9, almost 10. He was just about 10. So. Yeah.

0:27:13 – (Courtney Doctor): Okay, well, how. How have you. I guess the first question is just how do you talk with him about it and how do you help him understand? And how is. How is he doing? We’re going to ask how we can pray for your family later. But.

0:27:27 – (Colleen Chao): Yeah, how.

0:27:27 – (Courtney Doctor): How do you even enter into that conversation with a 6 year old, 9 year old and now 14 year old?

0:27:34 – (Colleen Chao): You know, one thing that struck me so hard at the very beginning, and I will never be Able to put into words the grief of watching that almost 10 year old process. When I first shared with him, it was, you know, it’s one I’ve thought and I’m kind of going on a tangent here, but it’s one thing I cannot imagine. The grief of losing a child, it’s. It’s the worst grief under the sun, right, that none of us wants to experience.

0:28:02 – (Colleen Chao): But part of me thinks then I get to carry the grief. And there’s something knowing that my son has to carry grief. Um, and so neither is or. I’m not comparing, I’m just saying as a mama, I want to carry the grief. I don’t want to lose him. I don’t want to go through that. That’s the worst I can even imagine. But I, I don’t want him to go through this. And we’re so close. So at the beginning I, I just had, I had migraines, my heart pounded out of my chest just trying to figure out how to even process this kind of grief.

0:28:39 – (Colleen Chao): And I remember he would just tuck into bed next to me night after night and just cry. And those were, they became sacred because again, I felt God’s the shadow of his wings. And they were the most holy parenting moments because I got to make connections for him that I wouldn’t otherwise. We had talked about eternity through chronic illness and his suffering. I. We’d been able to have those conversations about eternity, be it suddenly his grief and mine, my husband’s.

0:29:22 – (Colleen Chao): Those parenting moments, it’s like everything that’s important and sacred were in those moments. And so I was getting to. I’ll go back to that. Tethering, tether him to Jesus. And I, I got to talk to him about what’s really real, right? And it’s so, it’s so tangible when, when we’re walking through this. And so there were some holy. That’s all I can describe is Jesus was there with us, guiding us in our parenting and meeting us in those unthinkable spaces.

0:29:59 – (Colleen Chao): And now it’s just incredible to have him in his teens and to see the wisdom God has worked in his heart because his wife world lies on the edge of eternity. Like this is so real to him. And of course he’s messy and broken like all of us. He’s. It’s not like he has some corner on the market of this, but he’s. There is a wisdom in him and he says things, insights where I go, whoa. And we were raw and we’re real. And I told him early on, you can ask anything, you can say anything, you can feel all the things. And we’re going to give you people to surround you, where you can process and all the. You know.

0:30:44 – (Colleen Chao): But truly, it’s been a holy and very hard parenting journey.

0:30:49 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah, I can’t. I just can’t imagine. We’re going to put a link to the video that I think revive our hearts captured in the show notes. And it’s just a beautiful video. I’ve watched it probably more times than I should have because it’s just. It’s just so beautiful and heartbreaking.

0:31:07 – (Colleen Chao): Hard.

0:31:08 – (Courtney Doctor): But you get to see. I think the two of you singing hymns together is the part that just. It’s just you’re just giving him this. Because it’s not just your story, is it? You know, we’ve had to talk to our kids about that in much easier circumstances. But that, you know, the Lord, it’s not just one person’s story. He’s writing. He’s writing everybody’s story in this, and this is Jeremy’s story. Well, we talked at the beginning about this idea of trusting God with. With your very life, trusting him with all of who you are.

0:31:39 – (Courtney Doctor): But I think for any of us that are parents, this idea of trusting him with our children’s lives is even more daunting, I think, for most of us. And so it’s not just terminal cancer that has to require us to trust the Lord with our children and the story he’s writing for them and the way he’s working in them. So what have you learned in doing this? Because you’re doing it. You’re actively doing it, even though it has to be one of the hardest parts of this.

0:32:17 – (Courtney Doctor): So what do you do? How can we do this, too? Because it’s hard, and mine are adults. And now I’ve got the, you know, the grandchildren that I have to trust them with, because now it’s a whole nother generation that I’m, like, stressed out about them, you know.

0:32:31 – (Colleen Chao): Oh, you’re multiplying. You’re multiplying.

0:32:33 – (Courtney Doctor): Yes, exactly. Exactly.

0:32:35 – (Colleen Chao): The trust.

0:32:35 – (Courtney Doctor): Oh, my word. Yes, exactly.

0:32:37 – (Colleen Chao): Oh, I don’t have great answers, to be honest. I. It is a. It. It goes back to that. Clinging and just continuing to. This might be a terrible analogy, but just continuing to put Isaac on the altar and to say, God, you will provide. You will provide, and you will do them good. What I know about your character is going to hold fast. And so, again, being able to pour out my heart, it is the hardest part of this journey, bar none, because he’s not.

0:33:15 – (Colleen Chao): You know, it’s like you’re. It’s your kid, it’s your kid. And so. And of course, my husband. Of course. But it’s. There’s that mama’s factor. Right.

0:33:25 – (Courtney Doctor): Well, and he’s an adult and there’s a different. It’s a different thing. No, I. I think all of us feel that, you know.

0:33:32 – (Colleen Chao): Yes. And even, you know, scripture has a couple of different verses where it says. It talks about grief. And to make its point strong enough, it talks about a son losing his mother. And I just find that fascinating that that is the biblical example of what grief. You know, that. Anyway, it’s so just being able to say, God, I. You have proven yourself to me through so many things over so many years.

0:34:04 – (Colleen Chao): I’m banking on that for my son. And I’m not going to be ashamed of what I’m feeling either. And to be okay with just mourning. And I’m so encouraged by Jesus’s response to death in Scripture. I think of Psalm 18. There is almost this dragon like response that he has when David is facing death. I mean, he.

0:34:30 – (Courtney Doctor): He is.

0:34:31 – (Colleen Chao): It’s snorting out his nostrils and it’s flames that are being thrown from him because he comes down to make it right. And then we see that same picture in John 11 with Lazarus. Jesus, you would know the embryo, my, I think is the Greek word. But it’s that snorting with anger because Jesus is. He hates death more than any of us do. And he came to break its neck and to make it right. And before he raises Lazarus, he’s crying and he’s feeling. He doesn’t say, it’s gonna be okay, just a few minutes, it’s all gonna be okay. He joins us in the emotions.

0:35:15 – (Colleen Chao): And that has been a comfort to my mom’s heart, is he joins me in those emotions. He joins Jeremy, he joins Eddie in our raw mourning and lamenting. But he doesn’t leave us there. And then he brings scripture that promise, really big, great things, right? And he’s saying, really soon this is going to be over really soon. All of you are going to be with me and this will all make sense. And there is an eternal, incomparable weight of glory at stake here.

0:35:49 – (Colleen Chao): And so we can say this is light and momentary. It doesn’t feel like it, but in comparison.

0:35:54 – (Courtney Doctor): No, it doesn’t.

0:35:55 – (Colleen Chao): In comparison.

0:35:56 – (Courtney Doctor): Yeah.

0:35:57 – (Colleen Chao): We can bank on the fact that someday this will make sense, what was at stake. And he is going to outgive us more than we can fathom for whatever we Lose here. Right. If you give up homes and fields and parents and children, he will give a hundred times over in this life and the next. And so we bank on that.

0:36:19 – (Courtney Doctor): We do bank on it. And I just keep saying this, but thank you that you are showing us and teaching us how to actually do it because it can just be words. And then it’s like, oh, no, you’re actually, you actually are clinging to these true truths that are true. But it’s hard to live in light of that sometimes. And then look at all the lesser things that we have trouble trusting our kids with. So it’s this.

0:36:50 – (Colleen Chao): And I still do.

0:36:51 – (Courtney Doctor): Absolutely, absolutely you do. I mean that. Of course you do. Of course you do. I mean, that’s because. Yeah, because that’s just how we are. And it’s just, you know, trust that you didn’t get the invitation to the birthday party or make the select team, like, it’s all gonna still be okay. But I mean, you know, it just. You start thinking about those things in light of the bigger issues, the darker shadows.

0:37:16 – (Courtney Doctor): And I love that. And what you’re saying, Colleen, it is true. Like, it is. God is doing this work for, like, he’s going to show up for Jeremy, for Eddie. It’s who he is. And so like, it’s. Yeah, it’s true comfort. It’s true peace. Well, I want to shift a little bit because you talked about the local church and so what has. How has God used local church believers, gospel centered friends in your life? And really, how can we learn from them?

0:37:47 – (Courtney Doctor): How can we be better friends to our friends who are suffering?

0:37:51 – (Colleen Chao): When I think that’s a mutual give and take. Right. Because we’re all going through different forms and different seasons. I love God’s people. And Psalm 16 is just so instructive to me where it says, I have no good apart from you, and all my delight is in your saints. And it’s like, that’s an amazing, you know, it’s the mystery of both. Like, all my good is in God. I mean, it could just be God and that would be enough. But then he gives us his people so that we experience him and know him as we cannot alone.

0:38:31 – (Colleen Chao): And so all my delight is in his people. And people are hard. And I will start with moi. I’m a difficult person. And so relationships are just hard. They’re so tough and. But that resolve has become more and more. The closer I get to going home. The more I love the church, I love the bride, and the more I work to, to make sure I’M connected with those people. And it takes more effort than ever before because my body is weak and I get tired easily. Social energy is very small.

0:39:15 – (Colleen Chao): But I see my need for, especially the way God has made his church. It’s a beautiful thing. And when we go off, it would be way too easy for me to go dark and isolated if I let myself, you know, slip away from that local church setting. And so I give myself to it, and I see how the people of God fill in my gaps and speak truth to me. It’s where I get to confess sin. It’s where. Where I get to enjoy the sacraments and be reminded of the feast to come.

0:39:50 – (Colleen Chao): By taking that supper, you know, gathering around the table. I’m just increasingly grateful for how the body works and how we need each other and we’re not meant to go it alone. And sometimes it can feel isolating because I don’t know anyone else at this moment or in our church that is on this journey. And so sometimes it will feel. And we can all feel that with different sufferings, right? Like, oh, I’m the only one in my circle with this particular suffering right now.

0:40:19 – (Colleen Chao): And that can be quickly become a problem or a lie. And so for me to stay connected keeps the suffering from becoming big. You know, it keeps the suffering in its place. Because as I’m hearing everybody’s stories, I’m like, wow, I can’t even imagine facing that. And it keeps us balanced. It keeps perspective. And anyway, I could go on and on.

0:40:45 – (Courtney Doctor): Well, I love how you started off talking about how it’s mutual always. And I know you said earlier you were talking about just doing the next thing, and you said, sometimes I just need to get on and send an encouraging email. And I thought that’s a beautiful way to live as both the receiver of mercy and the giver of mercy. The receiver of encouragement and the giver of encouragement. Like, what a beautiful testimony. But we do need each other, don’t we, in order to be doing that? And we have to actually know each other in order to be able to do that in a way that’s real and tangible and. And substantive.

0:41:17 – (Colleen Chao): Yes.

0:41:18 – (Courtney Doctor): Well, Colleen, I feel like I could just keep asking you questions for a long, long time. I want to learn from you, and I appreciate the opportunity to do that. I do want to end with two questions. The first is because I know everybody listening is going to want to know how we can pray for you and how we can pray for your family.

0:41:41 – (Colleen Chao): Oh, my goodness, that means so much. And I will say we have felt the grace of prayers from saints, I cannot even tell you. There are times where there is just a. A tangible experience of grace that doesn’t make sense. And then I will hear, people were praying. People were praying. People were praying. Um, and I know that, yes, this journey would be much different without prayer. So thank you. Thank you. Ahead of time, we stand on those prayers. Um, for me, one of my prayers is that I will endure joyfully.

0:42:19 – (Colleen Chao): It’s daunting, and I am tired. My body’s tired, and I’m just. So often I’m saying to the Lord, I am so weary. I’m exhausted from a long, long journey, even before cancer of just physical suffering. And. But I want to endure to the end. I want to finish well, and I want to do it with joy. I want to live from the heart Jesus has given me so that even maybe in my final days, I can still laugh a little bit, even if that’s hard to do physically or I’m drugged up or whatever it looks like just that Jesus’s heart would still flow out of me.

0:43:01 – (Colleen Chao): So. However, I don’t know how to say that succinctly, but I love that.

0:43:04 – (Courtney Doctor): What a beautiful thing to pray for. Mm.

0:43:07 – (Colleen Chao): Well, thank you. That’s what he’s definitely put on my heart to press into that. Lord, help me, because there’s, you know, enough people bail, and I know that’s in me. I’m not impervious to, you know, just blowing it at the end or bringing shame to Christ’s name. And so pray, Lord, help me finish well and bring glory to you and for my guys that God’s hand would be mighty on their lives. I mean, when I pray that that gives me such faith and courage, like God, make your hand.

0:43:41 – (Colleen Chao): I already see it. Continue your mighty hand on their life that they would continue to have kingdom impact and live for you and same kind of thing. Finish well and strong and by faith.

0:43:55 – (Courtney Doctor): And so I hope everybody listening, please stop and actually pray these things for Colleen and Eddie and Jeremy and watch the Lord work, because he does answer the prayers of his people. And so I hope that you have thousands upon thousands of people all over the world praying those exact things for you. And, you know, Colleen, before I ask you your last question, I was thinking when you started talking and you said that as a younger woman, you just so desperately wanted to impact the world for Christ, like, that was your.

0:44:31 – (Courtney Doctor): I mean, Colleen.

0:44:34 – (Colleen Chao): You have.

0:44:34 – (Courtney Doctor): I mean, it’s just.

0:44:35 – (Colleen Chao): Oh, my goodness.

0:44:36 – (Courtney Doctor): Not in the way you would have scripted it, but my word, my Word, you have. You have strengthened the church and you have brought glory to the Father, Son, and Spirit. And it’s a privilege to know you. Privilege to know you.

0:44:52 – (Colleen Chao): So thank you, sister.

0:44:54 – (Courtney Doctor): And I do.

0:44:55 – (Colleen Chao): Forward.

0:44:56 – (Courtney Doctor): I look forward to that day when we’re both standing on the other shore and we can rejoice in person in our resurrected bodies.

0:45:06 – (Colleen Chao): I look forward to that. Yes.

0:45:08 – (Courtney Doctor): Well, you are. You are a singer. I know that. So what is one of your favorite hymns? What is a sustaining hymn right now and why?

0:45:16 – (Colleen Chao): I mean, an all time favorite is Be Still My Soul. And I just. Some of the lyrics, especially Through Thorny Ways, leads to a joyful end. I mean, that one, if I was gonna get a tattoo, it would be that through thorny ways leads to a joyful end. But they’re just some Rich, you know, the hymns and theology. I love that you ask that because it shapes our theology when we soak in those. But yeah, that would be an all time favorite that I sung over Jeremy for years and years, even before cancer, and it took on new meaning when all this went down. And those words are rich and no, you know, Be still, my soul the Lord is on your side.

0:46:03 – (Colleen Chao): Ah. Bear patiently the grief. I mean, it’s just. It goes on and on. It’s just.

0:46:09 – (Courtney Doctor): Rich, you want to sing us. Sing us a verse from it.

0:46:14 – (Colleen Chao): Oh, my goodness. I would have to. I’m gonna have to look at it because I will not pull the. But yes. No, no, no. We can cut that part here. No, I can. Let me just do a little. I’ve got it right here. Okay, I’ll give it my shot. Be still, my soul the Lord is on thy side Bear patiently the cross of grief or pain Leave to thy God to order and provide in every change he faithful will remain Be still my soul Thy best, Thy heavenly friend through thorny ways Leads to a joyful end.

0:47:16 – (Colleen Chao): Stick with that one. But I just. That verse, so rich.

0:47:21 – (Courtney Doctor): It’s so rich. And with that, we are. We are going to end this episode. There is no more beautiful way to end. So thank you for joining us, Colleen.

0:47:30 – (Colleen Chao): Thank you.

0:47:30 – (Courtney Doctor): And for sharing your very life with us.

0:47:33 – (Colleen Chao): Thank you. Thank you for your ministry and how you lead these conversations to. To Jesus’s glory.