How Pastoral Pitfalls and Failures Contribute to Dechurched Casualties

The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.

Jim Davis
Welcome back to season three of as in heaven, where we’re looking at the great D churching. And over the past two episodes, we’ve been talking specifically about the church casualties. Last week, we talked with Dr. Justin Holcomb, about abuse in the church and the way that has increased the churching. And we’re going to pick that conversation back up today. And we’re going to talk specifically about pastoral falls, an area that Dr. Holcomb has had close observation of and interaction with both those who have fallen and the casualties of their fall. Let’s jump back in.

Mike Aitcheson
So Justin, again, just a wealth of wisdom and encouragement, and just so much insight there. So just following up on that related to these conversations, a term we hear a lot today is narcissism. And surely it’s used when it should not be and it’s not used when it should be. Okay. Can you define this word and help us understand the danger of a narcissistic leader in the church?

Justin Holcomb
Yeah, this is where chuck the group’s book when narcissism comes to church is so important, because he he writes about this with clarity and compassion. There’s compassion for the Narcissus also. So narcissism is an extreme self involvement to the point that it makes that person like ignorant of an unaware of and ignoring the needs of other people around them. So radical self orientation, and everyone has a narcissistic behavioral moments. So there’s, there’s narcissism, which is that but a true narcissist disregards others in their feelings, that’s, that’s narcissism. And then there’s, then there’s narcissistic personality disorder, that’s, that’s when. And that’s a spectrum there also. So that’s my definition of it. This is so dangerous, because what happens then is, as a leader in a church, your job is to talk about God, not yourself. Talk about them, not yourself. So what you’re what you’re doing as a leader, you’re saying, this is true about God. And this is true about what God says about himself. This is what this is true about what God says about you. And this is true about what God says about you relating to God. And when narcissists get in there, they find a way the illustrations become about them, they’re the hero, or they do some really smarmy gross oversharing, about their failures. And but as always pointing back to them in some way. Now, yeah, use illustrations about yourself and all that there’s, there’s, there’s a healthy way of stewarding your role as a leader. And everything we’ve seen about a leader is that it’s supposed to be oriented toward the needs of others, the spirit and how the Bible defines that the spiritual needs of others is they need their sins forgiven, they need to be declared righteous, and they need to know that their enemy of Satan, sin, hell death, and the grave has been conquered by Jesus Christ. So you’re talking about there, you’re not just talking about like their felt needs, you’re talking about. Christian needs, what the Bible says about their needs are. So it’s dangerous, because it distorts. It distorts the narrative to the leader, which then teaches the congregation that it’s really all about them. So you’re because the preacher and the teacher and the leader is actually when they preach. And when they teach. They’re actually showing the congregation a hermeneutic of how to read the Bible. They’re teaching people how to read the Bible. So when a narcissist gets in there, they’re teaching the congregation this is how you read the Bible. It’s all about you, and you’re the center of everything. And so it’s really dangerous because it does not pointing to the person and work of Jesus Christ. It’s secondary at best, it can be dangerous, but that’s the point of preaching is the actual gospel, the good news, and narcissists are really good they usually leveraged when they, they usually focus on good advice because they want to be seen as a guru, they wouldn’t be the advice giver, giving advice makes them the guru giving good news is pointing to what God did, which is that’s that doesn’t work too well for narcissists. Now the danger is when the narcissist uses the gospel, because that way they get to be because the gospel is so powerful. There’s a narcissistic way of talking about the gospel like I’m here to teach you this good news and it makes them and associates them it’s like no separate yourself like Go Go to that that picture that Carl Bart used to love this picture of the preacher pointing his finger to the crucified Christ was it was a Luther who was in the picture that Martin that curl, but anyway, that’s the picture. So that’s why it’s so dangerous for other reasons, because narcissists are have a tendency to abuse but it’s also dangerous because narcissists are brilliant, they hate to be ignored, they’d rather be hated than ignored. So they’ll create conflict where they don’t need to have conflict, they pour gasoline on the fire, they make fires where there aren’t fires. So there’s a whole mess on why narcissism is dangerous. And so that’s why you have to filter out narcissistic leaders in your qualifications of an elder. Our denomination has numerous steps. And so narcissists, get get a get spotlight put on them pretty quickly.

Jim Davis
Well, it’s funny, we’re recording today, because this morning, you and I were having a conversation about narcissism. In another context, this is something that seems to be coming up here, here and there in our midst. And you know, I’ve heard counselors and psychiatrists say that rarely can a narcissist be helped, that a narcissist does not want to change. They, they won’t see counselors, unless they maybe see it as a way to save face and keep going and maintain their former platform. In the podcast, that most of our listeners are probably familiar with the rise and fall of Mars Hill, there was a quote at the end or someone said, the narcissist goes on, they always do, which is pretty discouraging. So if a Do you agree with that the psychologists and the counselors and that I’ve, you know, that I’m referring to, and that quote, and if you do agree with that, what does a person in a church with a suspected narcissistic leader or specifically pastored do?

Justin Holcomb
Alright? Yeah, when psychologists say things like that, and all of them say the same things, I tend to believe them. Yeah, the narcissist goes on what they always do that that’s a way better way of saying it and a narcissist would rather be hated than ignored. But same, same idea. Yeah, they’ll find a way to pop back up and get a following is as big or small as I can get, because it’s really all about them. And that’s, that’s this the, the heart of compassion there is that they’re so good. They’re so smart. They, they have such self awareness, but in really brief moments, where they actually kind of see what they’re doing. That’s why when they repent, it can be really powerful, because they might actually be repenting truthfully, but then they’re so good at deceiving that they deceive themselves self deception. Romans one says, we we suppress the truth and unrighteousness the category of self deception is a very Christian thing that we can deceive ourselves. And that’s what narcissists leaders do is they deceive themselves, God needs me to do this. Now that I fallen, I’m the best person to talk about grace, which is anyway. So what I would suggest is, if if someone in church if someone’s in a church with a narcissistic leader, what should they do, you should leave

Jim Davis
at a feeling that would be that’s one

Justin Holcomb
the other is pointed out and see, like there are I’ve seen churches where this has been done where the the leader is realized to be narcissistic and abusive. And instead of just leaving and letting other people get abused, there is a point where there’s a courage to leaving, because you’ll be gossiped about. And this happened to me, I’ve left places before and the gossip and slander of my intentions, because I dare to question the pastor, which again, makes sense. They’re there for marriages, births, deaths, they’re preaching the word of God, like there’s a reason there’s an emotional connection to a pastor, both at a neuroscientific level, social level and spiritual level makes complete sense when people have a high view. So when you go against them, it’s almost like you’re challenging them, you’re challenging the lay people by going against because that person is so meaningful to him. So I’ve been slandered. Now, I’ve also stayed in places where I’ve just said the truth. And I, that takes a lot of courage also takes courage to leave or to stay and say the truth, because sometimes churches actually handle it well. And the elders, I’ve seen it numerous places where the elders get there or the vestry, or the deacons depending on your polity. And they handle it well. They, they bring it up, they inform the narcissist, narcissist they confront, they do church discipline, they do the restoration, they do whatever, whatever the category is that they have, and, and then that leader is removed, or there’s healing, and then they get someone else or they stay, depending on that spectrum of narcissism. So leavings The first thing I tell people staying in saying the truth is the second thing I say to people, staying in a dysfunctional family system is not an option. That’s not healthy. That’s not good. That’s not godly. We think it is. Well, what’s really fascinating is people think that leaving danger people go well as this might be my cross to bear like, I’m all for cruciform it. And if someone thinks that that is their cross to bear more power to them, and I don’t want to violate their agency if they think God’s telling them to stay in that kind of dysfunctional setting, but I do want people to see it’s godly to leave dangerous environments is not more spiritual to say you’re not a JV Christian, if you leave. Jesus left some stonings, Paul avoid some stonings. There are God David fled when he was threatened even though he was also an abusive leader with Bathsheba and Uriah. It wasn’t a mutual adultery affair that was abuse, but godly people, people who had a heart after God have left dangerous environments, and they were celebrated for their godliness and that kind of thing is godly to leave a dangerous environment. It’s not JV, it’s not because you’re weak. It’s actually take strength to leave and do that. And say the truth, don’t gossip. But say the truth, the truth is not gossip, if it’s true, and there’s a way of saying the truth that is not slander is just telling the truth.

Mike Aitcheson
Just in that you touched on something about the dynamics that are, you know, a Mr. CONGREGATION or gathering, when a person identifies narcissism and then leaves. Can you elaborate a little bit on the relationship between the narcissist and the community that they’re leading? It’s there’s something negotiated there, are there overt things, you know, tacit things that are happening for people because I’m imagining that, well, if one person could see that something’s wrong, perhaps others have at least thought, or maybe had some kind of idea that something might be off. But what have you seen in these dynamics between a congregation and the narcissistic leader that allows, you know, the dysfunction to continue

Justin Holcomb
our emotional spiritual abuse, the stuff we started out with is frequently involved with a narcissist, where they make loyalty to them as loyalty to God, they, instead of separating, I’m pointing to Jesus, they kind of put themselves really close. And so you know, being loyal to me as being loyal to the gospel loyal to the mission loyal to God. And so people feel guilty for not sticking around with that particular leader. That’s, that’s frequently what’s happening. And they also have a tendency to become a little codependent where they’re like, you know, they miss us they manipulate the emotional connection, especially of their their inner circle of leaders. I mean, the, the narcissist doesn’t really care about just the regular church attender unless they’re a big giver, famous or can do something for them. I mean, there are a number but I mean, so that’s usually what’s happening is what’s being negotiated is, they equate themselves, loyalty to them is key. And they, as Jim and I were talking this morning, they want to control and control is the key. And if they can’t control and when people leave, that’s what’s so shocking when someone leaves. I’ve seen it and I’ve done the leaving. And I’ve seen the leaving and people kind of go, oh, Justin left, something might be messed up. If Susan left something might be really messed up. And that kind of validates. Yeah, I kind of thought yeah, I’m seeing this pattern is is kind of weird. And then I’ve stayed and other people have stayed nice. And this is inappropriate. This is what happened. This is what’s been done. You will that can be suffocating, threatening, dangerous to do. That’s why I say it takes courage but when someone does that, when they when someone says the emperor has no clothes. It’s a shocking moment. And that’s that’s basically what is the emperor has no clothes, and the narcissist setting that’s that’s the negotiation is the emperor who is wearing nothing, who knows he’s wearing nothing but doesn’t want to be seen as a fool’s parading as if he has on a majestic robe on in every one, especially in celebrity culture, land. And celebrity culture can be big and small. This is not just a large thing. I’ve seen really small churches with celebrity cultures. That’s when it gets really dangerous. So when someone goes, he’s naked, that does not go well.

Jim Davis
I you know, I’ve had people who would say things to me like, Yes, I know that the pastor is a narcissist. But my kids are so well connected here. To which I would say, Well, where do you think this is going? And how are your kids faith in the long haul going to be affected by by raising them in this kind of environment? Because there is a connection between narcissism and church falls, which we is a part of this episode is a part of people’s decision to D church. If there is a city out there with more pastoral falls in the past 12 years, I’m not aware of it, then Orlando, Florida, we’ve had our fair more than our fair share. I can think of half a dozen major falls by pastors of large churches in the past decade. And it’s super common for us, I’m sure for you to to meet somebody who would say I used to go to church until and then they name a pastor who made a bad decision often had narcissistic tendencies. So why is it so significant to people’s faith when a pastor falls?

Justin Holcomb
Yeah. One is because they’re preaching the Bible. They’re seen as gods, they are God’s mouthpiece. That’s our theology of preaching. When you’re preaching the word of God, you are the mouthpiece of God to people you’re the agent God is using. So one is because of what they’re doing in a church if they’re actually preaching the Bible, if they’re actually not just preaching the Bible, but preaching the gospel. They’re actually proclaiming their sins are forgiven that they’re declared righteous that Jesus has conquered Satan and held death in the grave. And they have hope. In and that’s what people desperately need to hear. And so going back to what I said earlier about the emotional spiritual neuroscience, when when people feel unified like that, and then there’s serotonin, there’s oxy cotton, there’s, there’s whole bunch of stuff happening in your brain, there’s stuff happening in your soul. When you hear the good news of Jesus Christ, you have a community where you appropriately are being nourished and nurtured and you’re learning about the Bible and God and each other in yourself, there’s so much happening. And so what happens is, is when when that person falls, there’s a tendency to think, well, if it’s not true for them, and they work for God, and is this really true for me. So that causes some doubt, which makes complete sense. The person that person has fallen, has potentially married them, buried some of their loved ones, their spouse, their kids, they have been there for graduations, they’ve been there for births, they’ve been there for some of the hardest things in life. And some of the best things could have married them could have. No, they’ve been there for such important moments. And, and so those that makes sense, their preacher preaching grace or giving hope they’ve been there for life, men would say better for good and bad. And that sense of like, then their, their religious professional, if they can even hold it together, like what hope do I have. So it causes them to doubt the truthfulness of what they’ve been preaching. And then that the other part is, I’d have a lot of compassion for the church or the experiences. So I want to say this, be careful. But they were participating in an exchange in the celebrity culture setting. They were looking for a celebrity, that’s possibly one reason why they went to that church is because they wanted a celebrity. And when your celebrities fail, you don’t be shocked. So again, I’m trying to say that when I’m saying, I intend to say that with compassion, but when you participate in a dysfunctional exchange, you be a celebrity, I be a fan, when you let me down, it’s devastating. It’s like one you never relationship with that person? What what, what what is being lost? Maybe you did have a relationship with that person. But what’s being lost there think through what’s being lost? Is it about you in a negative way? That needs some self exploration? Or is there something else going on that? And it’s likely more again, I’m not trying to blame the lay people when they leave the Narcissus leaves, but just being I just want to bring into the conversation. We weren’t participating in that exchange, and exploring the possibilities. How does that play into how you feel?

Mike Aitcheson
So you’re kind of moving into, but are there specific things that we can say to a friend or people that we know to help them who’ve stopped going into a church for this very reason?

Justin Holcomb
Same things I would say about abuse, I don’t blame you. You have some really fascinating dynamic teaching. And there are other good teachers who are faithful out there, let’s not let’s not equate fruitfulness with faithfulness. And know what this gives us a good, good, good moment to look at what a healthy church would look like. And a little bit more healthy focus on the person and work of Jesus and His gospel in the Scriptures would be important. Maybe not, you know, pitching life transformation, good advice, but good news, it helps it can help people calibrate. And so when people and I get it, I mean that getting people to go to church is huge. That’s important to get them there to hear the preaching of the Word of God and the sacraments and the community. And so when they, when they leave, there’s some pain there. And so I think just acknowledging the pain and the disappointment, and then asking, just ask, ask them what what would you have hoped would have been different. My daughter years ago, had a experience where she was bullied. And leader in that situation said, What do you wish would have happened differently? That was a brilliant question. My daughter started talking about what she thought would have been happened differently. That was that’s huge. What do you wish would have happened differently? That alerts them to what their desires are? Some of those desires, most of those are probably really good, some of them might need to be changed. So I think asking would be huge for those that have left.

Mike Aitcheson
Okay, and so, we talked a great deal about some of the negative implications of narcissistic leaders, some of the male poor fruit but you’ve seen you’ve been around a lot of pastors. Justin, you’ve counseled coach mentored what what a common traits you see in healthy pastors and I also want to draw out our traits, draw traits, excuse me, that can help people who are looking for a church or looking to go back to church to help them not find themselves on they’re unhealthy leadership. So what are, you know, you know, we can empathize and, and make sure we give air and heart and validate their experience. But what are the things positively that we need to be telling our friends to look for?

Justin Holcomb
I love the question. The first thing is, for, for me self awareness, that person has a sense or read that pastor has a sense of read of who they are. And the pastor has experienced healing, both from the sins they’ve done, they’ve received hope, and forgiveness, and they’re aware of that you can tell they’re aware of that. They’ve also received healing for the ways they’ve been sinned against, we’ve all sinned them and sinned against and they evidence, that type of healing and forgiveness and restoration that comes with the gospel, that the pastor is people oriented, that they care about other people, they are other people growing and leading and serving. So if you’re at a church where they don’t want to raise up other leaders, that’s dangerous. If you’re at a church, where it’s all about what the pastor is doing with their next book, or their next, stay with their next campus, wow,

Jim Davis
that was a moment right there. If they’re not raising up other leaders, okay, that’s

Justin Holcomb
because you’re handing off power being controlled. So they’re people oriented. They seem to fear God in an appropriate way, because He’s holy, but they also know that they’re loved by God. And so there’s a tenderness there. So they, they leave, they look at the law, and they go, God’s holy, and I’m not I got a problem. They look at the gospel, and they go, thanks be to God. But he took care of my problem with my lack of holiness. And so I had an appropriate fear of His Holiness. But I have an appropriate proximity to God because I have a mediator who, because of my media, I can go boldly before the throne of God, and I’m loved by Him, where I will always receive mercy and grace. And so a healthy church would look like is faithful to scriptures and the tradition and the word of God and the gospel is fruitful fruitfulness is indicated by both average Sunday attendance and giving and weddings and funerals is also indicated by the fruit of the Spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control. It’s on mission. So the gospel is being proclaimed, and people are being gathered, that people are being nurtured by word and sacrament ordinance. And they’re growing and knowledge understanding of the Lord and scriptures in the world. And they’re being sent on mission, that the pastor is not the mission, they are being sent out as missionaries to their family and their neighbors and their co workers to bring back more people to be gathered by the gospel being proclaimed. So they’re gathered, they’re discipled, and they’re sent that looks like a healthy church. That’s actually how Jesus builds His church. That’s the model throughout all of Scripture. We’ll post that link on how does Jesus build his church, he gathers by the gospel, we experienced the grace of God, he disciples, he, he disciples them, where they’re nurtured, and we embodied love of God to one another, and then they are sent out as missionaries to extend the love of God. And that seems to be a healthy church. If one of those is broken. You have a problem going on. If there’s if there’s no mission is the club if there’s really no nurture, then it’s missional moralism where it’s like, hey, and usually what I love the whole talk about mission, but sometimes that missional moralism kicks in and that can be a clue to some of the narcissism was like, hey, beyond mission, which means bring more people back here so I can talk about how great and big the church is going,

Jim Davis
Man, that’s so good. I know you have to go. I have a 10 more questions I could ask you. But I’ll finish with this. You and your wife have written some great resources for parents as it pertains to understanding their bodies. This seems very relevant to you mentioned a little bit in the beginning, but it’s so relevant to our kids, protecting them the next generation about all kinds of abuse, especially sexual abuse. It can help guard them against some things that might come to them. Can you talk to us just a minute about your books and how they could be helpful to parents?

Justin Holcomb
Yeah, thanks for asking. Yeah, there’s three children’s books. First one is called God made all of me helping children, protect their bodies, that’s the subtitle is for three to eight year olds. So it’s actually a children’s book. We have a letter to parents in the front and practical advice on the back and it just goes through naming proper body parts appropriate and appropriate touch not having secrets, who people who you can trust and so it really is a sexual abuse prevention book. So

Jim Davis
so we use this book and I want to at some point a kid I gotta be it helps you use proper names which realize we weren’t doing well and we may edit this out but my child looked up and said, What’s a Virginia please don’t do it. But it’s the jet we talked about bathing suit parts is such a blessing to us.

Justin Holcomb
So that’s God made all with me. The second one is God made me his image, helping children appreciate their bodies. Just body basic theology of creation applied to children about bodies, which is like God made your body and it’s good. And in, because that’s a huge issue, one out of five children are going to be sexually abused before they’re 18. That’s why we wanted to have that book to lower that number. Another huge issue that comes alongside sexual abuse for children is body image, the number of children who are either dieting or doing push ups and lifting weights at the age of like eight, nine and 10 is staggering. majority of them are worried about body image is one of the number one issues. And so it’s like we did God made me this image helping children appreciate their bodies. And then third one, which you mentioned at the beginning, is God made babies helping parents answer the baby question, which is helping explain reproduction. This is not the sex talk. This is reproduction, we leave the specifics of that to the parents to figure out when is age appropriate and good for their child and in their own development, that kind of thing and how the family talks about this. So we’re not trying to do that for you. That’s your role. We’re trying to help you get to that point. So it’s not just done when they’re like 12. And it’s one talk, it’s, it’s many talks, and many talks is a whole bunch of small talks, many in many of them together. And then Lindsey, I wrote a book called rid of my disgrace, which is for survivors of sexual abuse, hope and healing for survivors of sexual abuse. And then is it my fault, which is hope and healing for those that have suffered domestic abuse, and then a mini book we did on children and trauma, helping equip parents, for children who have experienced trauma. Those are all available at Justin holcomb.com. There’s a section on books you can that’s the easiest way it’s just go Justin holcomb.com books, and they’re all just listed.

Jim Davis
Maybe we can put that in the show notes as well. Man, thank you so much for joining us. It’s just fun hanging out. Thankful for you in so many ways. And to our audience. Join us next week we’re gonna be talking about the low hanging fruit of relational wisdom, the critical importance of relational wisdom and how that impacts the deep churching phenomenon.