The Next Generation: Forming Kids for Lifelong Faith

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Jim Davis
Welcome to as in Heaven season three. My name is Jim Davis. I’m your host and pastor of Orlando Grace Church, I am joined by my co host and dear friend, Mike Aitchison, who serves as the lead pastor and planter of Christ United fellowship also here in Orlando, this season on the podcast, if you’ve been listening, you know that we’ve been talking about living in a new context in the US called the great deed churching as somewhere between 30 and 50 million people living today in America who regularly used to regularly attend church don’t anymore, which is changing so much about our spiritual landscape and the very fabric of our society. So we’ve talked at a very high altitude about some of these changes culturally, but today, we want to come way down, and we want to talk about what implications this cultural change has specifically on parenting. So today, we have the privilege of being joined by David and Meg Robins. David is the president of family life, which is a ministry of Cru Meg serves alongside him helping him to give leadership to family life. My wife, Angela has given Meg the the title of falafel family, First Lady of family life, and and YouTube both do a fair amount of speaking and teaching, whether it’s on family life today or other places. And I will say this is this is kind of a fun episode for me for a few reasons. First, both Mike Aitchison and I along with our wives, we have the privilege of speaking for Family Life at their Weekend to Remember marriage getaways. And really just seeing God do great things at those, which is a real blessing to be a part of that. But it is also special because David and Meg are dear friends. Both of you were in our wedding. All Davis kids Aitcheson kids and robins kids all 12 of them go to school together. David discipled me as a pretty new Christian, pretty, pretty raw, new Christian. And and David and my wife are cousins. So we they go way back. So it’s great to have you to here today. And I just want to thank you very much for joining us.

David Robbins
Oh man, it’s so good to be here. And we’re taking the macro conversation you guys have been having that I’ve been loving engaging with. And we’re zooming in all the way to the ground level. That’s a fact. We get to live live together and have for a while and it is a treat to be with you guys.

Jim Davis
Well, I do want our listeners to understand why we have asked you to to come on here today. You have a very, you know, 30,000 foot view you have this title leading this large organization and family life but really more to who you are when I asked them to come on. Their first response was to point to other people who have written books or host podcasts specifically on on parenting as a potential guest. And that kind of humility is the reason that we want to talk to you. You have four kids ranging from first grade to 11th grade, I get to live life with you and process parenting with you. And I’m here to say while there are no perfect parents, these friends are parenting out of a deep sense of their own dependence on the Lord a keen awareness of what their kids are going through, and just a longing to see their kids launched into the world knowing how to navigate it. So thanks.

David Robbins
Oh, man, it is true. I mean, we need sages in our lives. We are not the sages. We need Sherpas in our lives who have gone to that place and walk alongside with us. We are though the fellow strugglers, like we’re in it, and we have to encounter the gospel every single day as we raise our kids alongside so many of you in this day and age and cultural moments. So it’s a treat to get to talk about it. We do get a view from family life into it. But man, we are in the grind of it with you. So fellow strugglers needing the gospel every day, that is that is what we bring. That’s about what we bring to the table. That’s about it.

Meg Robbins
Well, if there’s one thing we know, you definitely see that close and personal of us, Jim’s and Mike and know that we definitely have not achieved perfect parent and that’s okay. That’s not the goal. Right. But we’re glad to be in it with you all for sure.

Mike Aitcheson
Well, that’s it in data does good Meg, you’re saying it takes a village? Yeah. I listened ditto to everything Jim said. And he’s known you all way longer, but just five minutes with you all. And you can easily see why Jim said all those things. And this is a privilege to record on this podcast as well because I’m like, Oh, this is another opportunity for me to learn from Dave and Meg. I plus I just like hanging I will show you all so fun. Dave brought me up to speed with time with Little Einsteins recently

David Robbins
made a joke and he missed him is that I’m older than you. That’s all that.

Mike Aitcheson
And you know, with all this overlap that we have, I just want to propose that we have a planning session on buying some plot of land or something, and all just camp out together, at least one month out of the year. How’s that sound?

David Robbins
That’s a different episode, Michael.

Mike Aitcheson
Honored to have y’all on. Truly.

Jim Davis
Well, let’s dive in. The first question that I want to ask you because you guys have lived in a number of different contexts. We, we all lived together in Italy. But that was pretty kid. So not applicable to this podcast. But you have raised kids in Athens, Georgia, New York City, Little Rock, Arkansas, and now Orlando, Florida. So you basically have an SEC town, an unchurched, tier, one city, the Deep South, and now a city that is mostly de churched. So what’s different about parenting in these different contexts? And what has been unique to Orlando and the D church context? I would imagine that there are benefits and challenges to each of them. Yeah, I

Meg Robbins
think that, you know, different cities have different contexts for sure. And there are different influencing factors and every place that we’ve lived, I’m sure that’s true for everybody. But I think in some ways, your kids are going to be your kids. I mean, it’s kind of that nurture versus nature thing, I guess, which we don’t have to solve that today. But there are different influences, I think, and the different places that we’ve been, I think of our time in New York City, we had Atlanta in the mix to that was couple years in there. But it New York, as in specific, specifically New York, um, you know, I think there were definitely influencing cultural factors that were difficult and challenging. But even going into that time, we heard Tim Keller and his wife, Cathy talk about some of the pros and cons of living in the city. And it really shaped and changed our perspective. While we were there, I think a big piece that was super helpful, informational for us, was just kind of the reality that you’re kind of discipling your kids in real time there because you’re not driving everywhere, you’re walking around together and sitting face to face on a subway or a bus and there’s a lot more FaceTime. So as your kids are encountering blatant cultural norm differences and norms that you might not love or agree with, you’re talking about them. So there were benefits to that I think engaging and encountering those things together. In some ways, I think it was probably a little bit easier to kind of live on mission together. You know, we were it was obviously, you know, less church, less people who knew the Lord. And so we were definitely very aware all of us that we were living in a more lost context.

David Robbins
Secular mindset. Yeah, life was working for a lot of people. Yeah, go back to killers, you know, where we got listening to that. I remember he also saying every city has its own idols, you know, in perhaps in New York is this achieving, you know, in Little Rock, and when we live there, there’s more of a comfort and wealth and security. Here in Orlando, it’s not California, where, but it’s kind of has a similar vibe of enjoyment and pleasure. And there’s a year round, let’s, let’s take in all the sensors, there’s always something to do and live the good life, you know, the versions of good lives in each city takes its toll as we pair it. And that is a part of the cultural environment. So each one of us wherever you’re listening from, you have a cultural environment in the community and city you live in, that is going to form you and your family. And so how do we do counter formation for a kingdom mindset? I think wherever we have lived, that’s been the question we’ve asked, How do we counter form and disciple and form our kids, and by the way ourselves, because we get caught up in it also, that counter information becomes so important and you know, there’s, you can block you know, parent in different phases and the posture we need, it’s really helpful to think about I’m not a golfer, but yet the term still helps her to me a back nine and a front nine, where the in the back nine, you have their ear the most and you can form and shape with an intentionality. And then in the in, I’m sorry, in the front nine, and in the back nine, you know, age 10 to 18. Your posture shifts a good bit, and you still have their ear but you’re seeking to launch them and and how you do that, according to the cultural forces, your approach has to change. Our approach in New York City, if we had teenagers in New York City would be different than our approach in Orlando, though there’s still commonalities at the same time and so I think that’s where walking with the Lord Well, yours Self and being able to know your own idols and how you’re baiting into the culture around you. And in a deed in a de churched, culture and city, wherever that is for you and the different paradigms on the spectrum of cities you live in, being able to discern and approach is an important thing.

Meg Robbins
Yeah, I think one thing too, is like the challenge of, because we had that FaceTime in New York and obviously, in Little Rock in Orlando, I think, you know, it’s more of that drive in the garage, the garage door comes down, you’re not you know, and you’re in the car a lot. They’re behind you. You may not be encountering, like culture everywhere you turn. But it’s kind of like for us, we had to kind of learn how do we ask questions to bring up these things. They’re still encountering it with their peers and things they’re watching or whatever. But how do we be really intentional to dig in and ask his questions to surface the things that we would still want to walk with them through? And, and like working on our own shock phase that whatever question, answers may come up or, but just knowing like, they

David Robbins
lack of shock? Yeah.

Meg Robbins
Practicing not having a shot base, you know, so

Jim Davis
So what are those questions look like? I mean, you’ve got very different ages. What I don’t know, what are some general, if a parents like, I love that idea. How do I take my first step into doing that?

David Robbins
Yeah, yeah, I mean, the first thought I have a lot of times people go around the table, and we do to thinking highs and lows, or your teenage son that windshield time, where they’re not looking straight at you. You know, that’s a generality, but a lot of guys is like, they’ll open up if they’re looking out the window, the windshield, and all of a sudden, they don’t have to, like, see that you staring into their soul. And they start opening up and each kid is different. You got to discern each kid, but instead of high and low, or what was the best and worst of your day, it is what did you What did you feel today? What did you experience today cracking open into an emotion that’s very rarely a kid’s first answer. But that’s what you as a parent really want to know. And it’s what’s shaping them the most, most likely in a lot of formative years. And so that we still ask the practical high and low of what happened and rejoicing and being sad with activity or inaction, but then also just starting with, you know, what’s, what’s something that surfaced today that you that you experienced, or felt that that surprised you? And you’re just coming in at a different angle that gets to them opening up a bit more?

Meg Robbins
Yeah, I think that’s good. And even just asking the question, yeah, what, what emotions are you feeling? But you kind of had to ask that in a, depending on your kids age, you know, like, you know, with our youngest, he’s six. So we’re still asking like, Well, are you feeling happy or sad or glad you mad and you kind of have to give him some options. While he’s still learning that language, and the older ones, we can probably say like, well, what are two words that you would say, describe how you’re doing today, you know, and they kind of know

David Robbins
and no parents should be above for their own self or their kids, the feelings will, I don’t know if you know about the feelings will, but it’s those core. And then they have more descriptive words where you go, sometimes we don’t know how to say it. And they’ll roll their eyes when you pull it out. Because then it ends up being, you know, an amazing conversation. And there’s new ones now with even scripture on the outer band that you know, how do you not in blatant malice, go to Scripture, but like you, as a parent can actually circle back and go, Hey, I was reading this. And this gave me hope, does it you What do you think about this? And anyway, there’s great resources out there like that.

Meg Robbins
But it’s a good question. Because if you just say, how are you then you know, they’re all gonna say, Fine, you

David Robbins
may not be accused of my marriage of settling for that question too much.

Meg Robbins
Knowing how I’m feeling so I see why my teenagers do too.

Mike Aitcheson
I really appreciate the intentionality that you all are emphasizing around this because Meg, as you were talking about driving, and most of the time we get with them is, you know, not FaceTime his back my head time. And I was like, Man, the levels of questioning that you all posited, it just goes deeper than the kind of general things that come with the normal routine. And I feel like there’s a, what you all are pushing us to do is draw the heart of our kids out as we think about our context. And that’s so helpful. I mean, all sorts of thoughts are populating in my mind about how I probably need to add some more questions or maybe even nuanced the way I ask questions. So thank you for that. So, you know, we live in a culture that does not value church rhythms. Whether that is Sunday worship, Bible studies, youth events, family worship, you name it. So when the church was important in our culture, there were no sports activities on Sunday mornings or even Wednesday night and It is common for kids to go to church events just because so many other kids were going it was, you know, that was a big thing. I think about that in my experience. And that all has changed. It has changed big time instead of Sunday lunch, people now have Sunday brunch? And so what does it look like for you as parents to be pushing against our culture to implement healthy rhythms in your family?

David Robbins
I mean, I think we can speak personally. But I just want to give the caveat that some kids do have elite athletes that they have to discern at a different level than I have to discern, because none of my kids are elite athletes, or a product, eg classical violinist, you know, like, so I just want to give that caveat as we respond to our own journey does and can look differently, and it should be something we wrestle with. It should be something and I don’t know, even as I say the word should, I’m not saying in a condemning way, you know, the job don’t should on yourself, like as we experienced the gospel, like, it’s really important for us not to just go well, I need to and we ended up not actually processing at a heart level of what God inviting us into, for our kids and our family. And so I my main answer is go talk to Jesus about it. Go process with the Lord, honestly, bring in some close friends to go I’m really wrestling with this. I think often we don’t bring in close friends fear what they’ll say, I don’t want to hear what they really may lean into a question. There’s kids in different ways. So we’ll give our own practical, but yeah, that’s an important caveat. And so bring your own community, your own mentors and pastors into it. That would be a first step, because our situations are different. But yeah, New York and Orlando, in particular, has this has had this driven, you know, man, travel teams, and you got to do this. And we’re to be on the high school volleyball team that’s currently one of our kids what they’re having to process and how we handle that.

Meg Robbins
I mean, I think we’ve tried to be intentional to look for leagues or teams that don’t have Sunday morning activities, or, you know, whatever night or day or, you know, I mean, some people have the have Saturday night services at their church, and that’s great, you know, but that’s not an option for everybody. And so, I mean, for us, we do try to guard that time. I mean, our reality is that, you know, for the volleyball as we looked, we couldn’t find anything that had zero Sundays. And so we felt like, Okay, let’s try to find the one with the least we found one that has once a month or less, you know, so we’re like, okay, it’s just a season, it’s not year round. You know, I think this is what we go with. And it’s, you know, it’s challenging, because even that, to me, that’s like you said, Mike, that’s totally different from how I grew up, you know, there was never anything on Sunday. And so it’s easy to kind of feel like, you know, that this is so different. It’s not fair, and I shouldn’t have to be wrestling with but but it is our reality. And, you know, we do want, you know, to let our kids grow in these areas that they’re passionate about, but also show them like, but this is our priority. And so

David Robbins
it’s our priority now, because it’s a historical rhythm of the church. It’s because we’re wired for Sabbath. Because God created us and human flourishing and our flourishing as a home and family in our kids having that in rhythms is part of what God designed for our good and for His glory. And that is why we’re, it’s worth wrestling with, not because we need to be in church, although that’s important too, because there’s rhythms of there’s data out there that you guys have exposed around, if those rhythms aren’t there, what that ends up leading to, but is there even on the Sundays we do once a month, end up, you know, at volleyball tournaments, with 1000s of people in allow gym, and a very non Sabbath in place. Okay, what what are we doing on the drive to connect with Jesus together? You know, it’s different than the drive we had on Saturday. Because it’s all right, this is this is our Sabbath, and today we’re going to play our Sabbath. On this day of the month, we’re going to play instead of going communal worship. And we love communal worship. That’s a rhythm we have for our flourishing, we’re going to keep in rhythm and limit the absences from it. But we’re absent. So what are we doing on the way and it doesn’t take up the whole drive, you know, we can be like, pump up music to wake them up, because it’s 6am. And I be screaming and now let’s let’s have a moment where we’re spending 10 minutes talking about Jesus. It’s not like I just don’t want to paint this picture that we’re having all these holy car rides. Our car rides are not exactly honest. So anyway, it’s just thinking creatively, but because of why God has ordained it, and the rhythms of flourishing that develop that kids want to live out for a lifetime because they’ve tasted and seen, the good it brings. So

Meg Robbins
one thing I’ll say on that is, I mean for us, we’ve been able to do this mate, you know? probably depends on how elite your athletes are those kind of things. But I do think, you know, for a long time, especially when there were little, it was a little bit easier to pick and choose and find things. And so I think when they were younger, we probably were able to guard that a whole lot more and now, but we still, it’s like, we don’t want to just throw that out just because they’re older. And it’s almost like now we need them to see like, okay, sometimes yes, we make exceptions, but overall, as a family, this is what we’re committed to. And this is why so

David Robbins
so we do everything we can to aim everything towards school, as soon as everything starts getting on campus at the school where you’re in rhythms with the same community. That’s been the biggest blessing and we’re like aiming right there. And, you know, some some people have had the necessity of in order to make it to college soccer, you gotta go all these travel weekends, that’s part of it. So you know, how do you do your own process anyway?

Jim Davis
Well, I know I, you are your your normal people. That’s why you’re the right people to ask, and I appreciate your caveats. My kids likewise, their their genetics probably will not take them to definitely not professional and ignore college level sports. So this is this is helpful for for me to hear. I appreciate the grace that you give people, the intentionality with your kids. One of the things that we’ve talked about on other episodes through our research is in the D church, how many are of the church, Evan Jellicle, specifically, how orthodox they still are depending on on the primary issue, Trinity atonement, Jesus Bible 60 to 68% of the people who are no longer go to Evan Jellicle. Churches still believe this primary doctrines. And so one of the things I find with my D church, Evan Jellicle friends, is they’ll say, you know, I’m still a Christian, and likely our life’s just so busy, even if I don’t have travel sports on Sunday mornings, it’s just our morning to rest. And while we’re not going to church anymore, I’m still raising my kids to be Christian. So what you know, with your grace and caveat, I mean, how do you engage that viewpoint? And how might you challenge it?

David Robbins
I would just say cultural currents will drift us toward isolation, like and the enemy wants us to be isolated, especially in our walks with Jesus. And so whatever woundedness or disillusionment someone’s or inconvenience, you know, communal churches become, there’s a lot of different churches out there, there’s a lot of great house churches, I would just say, do everything you can to go where is a safe community, for where you’re at in your journey, because that communal part of the body of Christ it you know, let’s go to Scripture. And let’s look at these passages, again, it seems essential. And wherever they are in their journey, I would just keep encouraging them not to be isolated, but have rhythms of people in their world, because, you know, the Scripture is very clear around him. And so, you know, I have a thought of the institution of the church being very important as part of our rhythm. But first meeting someone where they’re at it is, you know, okay, how do you draw them into, where is the safe place for them based on where they’re at in their journey where they’re not isolated?

Meg Robbins
Yeah, and I think to just the value, we’re all being formed by something, and we want our kids to be, we have to choose what we want them to be formed by where to be careful about that, and intentional, and there is just such value in our kids being in an environment of other people, you know, who are worshiping the Lord and looking to Him and encouraging one another. I mean, we, you know, are so thankful for people like the two of you, who impact our kids, other people who speak into their lives, and we don’t want to be the only place where they’re hearing. This is the truth we believe in, you know, we want them to see how other people are living, walking with Jesus and knowing him and look at the life that they’ve experienced, or, you know, even just the, the value of as a body of believers, we’re praying for this. We’re asking, we’re seeking the Lord for this to happen. And they see God at work by being, you know, in the church environment. I mean, there’s so many things I could go on about that for a long time.

David Robbins
But I would say in the formation of our kids and parenting, I mean, you bring up a great point, there’s your parents peers, and how do they see us relating? Do they see us confessing ever? They say us ever talking about struggles we have because we’re right now we’re displaced because of mold in our house. And they our kids are seeing how we handle our own stress right now. And whether we’re doing that in community or not like and who’s coming around and helping us in our time of need. Those are all things that form their view of the church, and even more so I I think our kids are probably most shaped secondarily prayerfully to us, by people in church context we lived in and we’ve, you know, lived in variety through different cities. Who are those young 20s, early 30s, who are, who are investing in take this unusual interest in our kids. There is some beauty of the Body of Christ, either that or grandparent age that pull up close, but the vibrancy that you have in a church where it’s not just my parents and my parents age friends, eyeroll that’s what they do. Man you infuse in your kids lives, not that it’s their job. It’s definitely not these pastors jobs shaper, kids only. But I’m just saying people just in the church community that take this unusual interest. It is vastly shaping to our kids.

Jim Davis
You know, I love how you’re talking about the the 20 Somethings, I just read Colin Hansen’s biography of Tim Keller that are his influences that came out back in February. And one of the things that Keller’s really cite for the all of their boys really grown up to have a flourishing walk with the Lord was the influence of the 20 Somethings and their life because their faith, the Kellers faith wasn’t just something their parents did, they could see people that they thought were cool, really wanting to follow Jesus and investing them. So that’s a that’s a great point. And it’s even, like, it causes me to think about those influences in my children’s life and how that’s playing out in our church.

Mike Aitcheson
Yeah, so that was very helpful as we think about how to navigate this internally. So I want to build on that and think more outward face as it relates to our kids, friends and their peers. So in this season, we talked about the casually D churched. And the D churched. casualties. So the casually D church are those who move cities or COVID hit and they got used to not going to church or and just never came back. Then the D church casualties are those who more intentionally left the church, often because of some way. They would say they were hurt by the church or something related to that. So what does it look like for you all to process with your kids friends, whose families either claim to be Christians, and don’t go to church at all, or families who have real problems with the church, and have more actively decided to leave altogether? So how does that? What does that look like? How do y’all navigate that reality?

David Robbins
You know, the first thing that comes to my mind doesn’t talk about the audience you just described, our kids friends, or peers that we have that that are in that situation, it has to do my reflecting on my own story, like we actually have a season or two of significant church hurt. And we’ve had in the process our own like, Okay, we’re gonna risk again, we’re gonna be vulnerable again, we’re gonna go in or into another community. And so when you ask the question, like my mind was going into my own story, which I think most people probably have some version of being disappointed by a beat. So one of the first things we do is is not necessarily bash a pass church that we have of the experience. But actually, this be able to empathize with the realness of how hard it can be, and the grief that really does swell up for someone that has been disillusioned or injured in some way by the church and not to minimize that at all. Not to say, Come on, get with it, you know, that we had some family members pass away done family members in the same season that we were going through some of this church are and we have reflected, both were really hard. The church church has actually lingered longer some of that grief, and the ways I interact in new church environments. So I’m really not answering your question, but I just wanna say that’s what surface first to me. And I think being able to really enter someone’s story is the starting place. And you know, it’s gonna be different the way you interact to adults story versus a kids. I mean, I think if you inviting other kids along, and going out of your way to pick them up for youth group, or pick them up to go in the morning, can be a great way that you’re reshaping and giving them glimpses of glory of the Body of Christ that are renewed and refreshed. You know, like, that can be a very practical way for your kids. Some of them end up at your tables on pizza nights. And you can you can engage more intentionally with the trust that’s appropriate that’s developed with that kid. But yeah, it’s just funny how self reflective I got as you even ask the question, but

Mike Aitcheson
Well, no, I, I appreciate that. I’m sorry. I really do. I mean, you moved us to a place of empathy. The first thing that you said wasn’t dismissive. It was okay. Well, let me think about how I’ve been hurt by this institution that I love so dearly. And rather than, Oh, well, you know, people just need to get their act together. You know, anytime you go somewhere in any institution, if people are involved, it’s going to be messy. So let’s get on with it. No, I think that was actually what I need to hear what we all need to hear that think about ways that you’ve been hurt, and try to enter into someone else’s story, rather than just being dismissive. So I really do appreciate that that’s incredibly helpful. Maggie, what you were gonna say?

Meg Robbins
Say that when I think about our kids, and when they may be asking, Well, what about this family? You know, they’re not doing that on Sunday, or they’re playing golf, that’s what I’d rather be doing or whatever. Um, you know, I think similarly, I hope we would bring that same empathy, like, you know, we don’t know the background of why they’re feeling that way, or why they’ve chosen to put that aside for now. And maybe those are questions we can ask them or, you know, and even encouraging them, like, let’s remember, what are the things why, why do we choose to do this? Why are we choosing to like what we talked about the last question, like, think of the ways that God has loved on our family, through this community, and how we’re able to worship Him in ways that we’re kind of limited, but look how we’re led into worshiping him as a family, in the church environment? And how can we invite those people with us, you know, whether that’s ask them to bring these people to youth group, you know, or whatever it is, but I think helping our kids, you know, have that same empathy that we need to have, you know, at the same level, I mean, it’s gonna look different for them, and they may not be able, the thing is that, like, a lot of times, people like us have experience hurt or pain. And then they’re making a choice. It’s affecting their kids. So the kids may not be the ones who’ve experienced that, but helping our kids see, you know, what we, we are all broken people. And so every institution, every business, every church, every one, small group, family, we’re all broken people living with broken people, and there’s going to be hurt there. And like, how do we live through that and not let it cut us off from things that are life giving? You know,

David Robbins
yeah, there’s gonna be dignity and depravity in every local church context. There’s, I think, how do we make Jesus the central issue with our friends? And I’m thinking peers more now. Where, okay, he is the one that doesn’t have depravity? And how do we make him a central issue and journey alongside with it? What do they think about Jesus? And then from that place, as we get serious about walking with Jesus, then it’s never to be done in isolation. It is a communal faith that we experience, and how do we connect disconnected people, not only to Jesus but also to his people, which is the church because that’s the sustainable place for growth, it gets really dangerous, we can have windows where we’re a bridge, and brokenness is a bridge to the Gospel, like, it’s a great, you know, like someone’s hurt can be a bridge to a deeper encounter of Jesus in the gospel. But yet, when we become their only solution, we’re finite, we’re gonna disappoint them. We’re gonna grow limited in what we can keep passing on, and they need a broader experience, and how do we know their story and get creative to really meet what they need? I think it’s gonna end up being family, to family, person to person. And that’s the beauty, that the body of Christ is not about a celebrity on stage. It’s the beauty that the Empowered masses, we’re always outperformed the professionalism of a few. Every one of us is the scattered church that gets to bring others toward the gathered church and in the right redemptive time, and we get to be that bridge season for many. And you are we are the royal priesthood that gets to go out and then bring toward the gathered church.

Jim Davis
That’s really good. I really appreciate it. I, you know, you’ve, you’ve touched on, you know, we haven’t just been talking about kids, you’ve talked about our own stories about even some of the the older people in the church. And I want to ask you kind of a generational question, because it’s well documented, that at this point, that there are real differences between generations. Although, you know, there’s not everybody fits every stereotype, but there are differences because we grew up differently. So y’all, and we grew up largely without the internet, I can remember in college, being totally irritated. When a professor would ask us to turn in our assignments by email, it seems so unnecessary, and I forgot my password, figure out how to upload it. Now, this is just second nature to our kids technology in so many ways. Our kids are fully grown up and just in a totally different generation, in many ways. So what challenges do you see in this generation coming up and raising this next generation that that we didn’t really have to deal with and other generations and what what implications does that have for the future faith of our kids?

David Robbins
I mean, I feel Just think they’re different generations are like cultures where they have different starting places spiritually and what unlocks things. And when I moved to Italy, I had to put my organized Palm Pilot dating myself speaking of technology.

Jim Davis
Yes, you did I remember that. No, that is Yeah.

David Robbins
But I was offending people by moving on to the next thing, because it was this circular time communal thing. And it was like cutting off my right arm of how I operated, but for the sake of getting the gospel in real, genuine ways to more people I adjusted. And so we, as parents, I think have to one study the cultural difference in starting places people are at and are we in tune with that, and something like this podcast is really helpful. I think it’s why people are probably listening. But you talked about technology in particular. So we’ll, we’ll dive in there may want to pull back up to the other, but I was gonna say, you know, 2007, changed the game, and started the digital revolution in a totally different way. That is the year that Steve Jobs introduced a four inch screen called the iPhone that would sit in their pockets and become this over the last 15 years, unlimited potential. You know, Facebook opened up a little bit later, you know, via an email address. Beyond college students, it opened up to the world, not just college students. It was the next year that cloud, you know, technology and the App Store was developed like, this was all just 15 years ago. And we all most parents these days, maybe some millennials, with younger kids, but we remember life without it. I remember my mom, I was in ministry, first year, my mom thought it was absurd that I had a cell phone like how extravagant like that, how foolish to be flaunting that you’re not talking on it while walking, are you that would be absurd. And so you know, like that was the conversations we were having. And we have been able to grow into some form of regulation. But our kids, they were born into it. It’s all they’ve ever known, all they’ve ever known it is immediate answer like that. That is the world all they’ve ever known is I don’t have to pull out a map, I get to know exactly where to go without truly knowing where to go. I don’t have to think about that. I just put it in, you know, they only put in a navigator they put it in their phone, you know. So, anyway.

Meg Robbins
Yeah. I mean, I think the other thing is even kind of the on demand nature that technology has created. And it’s not our kids fault that they are used to like, wanting something and having it you know, it’s like, well, it when we get ready to watch a show, we pull up an app, you know, and go to the show, they want to watch that moment, they’re not waiting until Wednesday night 7pm. That’s when the Cosby Show comes on, and our family sitting around to watch it. And we’re gonna sit through the commercials to you know, like, it’s not like that anymore. So

Jim Davis
I was just trying to explain the nature of live TV to my youngest, like, he wanted me to pause this show, and it was just on TV. And I was like, You don’t understand this is you have to wait.

David Robbins
Last night, we were watching a show, and ads came up and it was fun. Oh, five, you know, like, this is gonna, you know, you can count how many ads are coming. So you can No, I mean, you know, like, yes, it’s

Meg Robbins
so different. But I will say that I feel like our parents have been very validating in this, because they will often tell us, what you are having to parent your kids through is so different and so much more complicated. And I’m so sorry, you know, than what we were going through. And we were growing up. And in some ways, it’s helpful for me to hear that like, Okay, this is the this is what God has put in our lap. And we’re all having to deal with this, but it is hard. But I think that the real reality of having a four inch screen, you know, at some point, you know, there are lots of things I think we feel are important, you know, waiting as long as you can to give your kid and an iPhone, and then having certain restrictions, you know, there’s we can go in to all that. But you know, just the reality that even if they don’t have a phone, a lot of their peers are going to have a phone and you can’t control when their peers are going to have a phone and when they’re going to have access to things that so I think it demands a lot more conversations, then we might not want to have them as early as we need. But we do we need to talk about the hard things and talk about, you know, just what, what is really involved in technology.

David Robbins
I mean, because it’s such a formative thing. It does disciple us, all of us. And there’s two goals I would say in parenting around technology in particular, which is part of it, you can’t avoid it. One would be self regulations that go like I’m not here to make your life miserable and did not give you things until all your friends don’t have you know already have it and you’re the last one like no, my aim is to actually form and shape you where you self regulate because you’re going to love hunched over my home. And you’re going to have everything you want you’re at, you’re going to be an adult. And my aim is not protecting you. Although that that’s part of it at certain ages, my aim is actually for you to be able to develop your brain, heart, soul, mind, and self control and string to be able to self regulate better than me and mom, you know, like,

Meg Robbins
you know, I’ve seen screen time and I’m like, wow, I need to put limits back on my you know, myself or give him the password or something. You know?

David Robbins
The second goal being real relationships to that, how do you relate and real give and take empathy, since a word that’s already been brought up today, conflict, you know, communicating things in person, you say things differently than you would over text you get embolden behind the blindness of just having to say it on words. And that given take those two formative things of self regulation in real relationship in person, that ends up shaping how someone connects with God doesn’t disengage in a church service, is able to have time with a lawyer that’s focused, sits in a small group and is able to give and take around God’s word like, those two areas end up being the things you go, yeah, that the 15 year digital revolution we’re in, it takes 10 years for something to fully, you know, come to an age, well, we’re in it, and our kids are growing up in it. And so those two areas when it comes to kids formation spiritually, is why they’re so important. I think it’s important you

Jim Davis
I was gonna, just real quick, Maggie, you opened the door to opening the door about when kids get cell phones, what you do, like when our oldest got a cell phone, y’all really walked us through a lot of you know what that look like? And so just real briefly, what are some some basic things parents should think through when they give their kid a phone for the first time?

Meg Robbins
It’s a great question. And, you know, we’re obviously still walking through this and figuring out ourselves, I think, because David said, the goals, if the goal is self regulation, I mean, we have to be really honest that when you hand your kid a phone, they are not going to start out with self regulation. You know, it’s just like, if I want to run a marathon, I’ve got to think about what are all the steps between here and running this marathon? Not that I’ve ever done that or have a desire, but just if I want to do yeah, there’s a lot that needs Zabbix, to say the least between today and the marathon. And it would take a couple of years, probably so in the same way we have to think okay, when we get ready to hand on this phone, what was the starting place? You know, and I mean, for us, we would say, start with as little as possible. And, you know, I think what scares me and makes me sad is a lot of parents just are like, here’s an iPad, and you know, good luck, you know, it’s like, actually, there’s Apple I mean, now this isn’t like an apple promo, but they’ve actually done a pretty good job of over the past few years updating and putting a lot in place that you can like take Safari off your kids phone and you know, you you can put it so they can’t download any apps. My brother actually was like, Hey, you actually might want to put it so that they can but they can’t delete them so then you can see what they’re trying to get on their phone. And you know, I mean there’s a lot exactly what we did. That’s exactly what that’s what leaders do, you know so and it creates accountability like our kids know, okay, I probably I’m going to ask them before before I download anything and we actually have a phone contract somebody gave us that we’ve kind of tweaked and made our own just so that our kids know Look we’ve we actually bought this so we own it and you this is what our expectations are and and getting really blunt with it too like you know about what kind of pictures you cannot send and things

David Robbins
line 17 is do not send naked pictures of herself I know that sounds dumb and that you would never do that but yet it may come it will likely come up at some point Do not you will regret it it will be shown but to other people you know I mean I think at the most basic when it comes to research out there principles each kid is different each community is different. You know I’ve I mean it was making me sad that some junior high sports teams were using Snapchat as their main form of communication from the coach and I’m just going oh man so you know you got to navigate the communities you’re in but in principle wait till eight for a smartphone if at all possible. There’s some great data out there that you can go search eighth grade good data out there on why for some you can wait longer you know it I we thought it was helpful we earlier than that gave some our kids a flip phone in seventh grade. Were like we’re not going to give you $1,000 hammy down from grandma you know like we’re actually going to make you click 123 own see in order to get the word you need so that you like create a longing but yet you’re able to communicate with us and your friends. Now, the way we used to do that exactly. But you know, you can’t I message but that longyi building that resilience of waiting isn’t so bad, you know, just don’t make get anal and so strict that you end up losing their trust, you know. And then when it comes to social media, there’s a lot of great data out there around 16. I know most people engage with it before them, but there is some brain development stuff. That that 16 seems to be an age where people can start handling the dopamine hits of social media better. Now each kid’s different. navigate those, I love what makes it ultimately this is about formation and discipleship conversations with your kids, this thing, if it’s always punitive, if it’s always negative, like, this is an opportunity to shape your kids and disciple them more than it is, you know, sometimes you will be punitive and take it away or take certain apps away. But But yeah, we do need to be proactively wise to,

Meg Robbins
I think to I mean, it’s very telling, I would highly recommend, if this is an issue that you’re facing, as a parent that people watch, the social dilemma is on Netflix is a documentary. And it’s just so telling that the creators of this stuff, you know, like the guy who created the like button on Facebook, and he like these guys do not let their kids have social media until at least 16. And here they are. So, you know, they’ve actually left their jobs and are now advocating for governmental like some kind of protection, because even when he looked back Saturday morning, cartoons, there was really high regulations on what kind of commercials could be aired then, so that kids didn’t get influenced by the wrong things. But now we’re giving our kids these four inch phone screens that they have with them all the time. And when you crack open into social media, you know, there are positive things about social media, you know, we don’t think it’s all bad. But you know, wouldn’t send our kids out into like a super dark, scary neighborhood with no protection and alone, just to find whatever they might come upon, because there’s a really great bakery in the middle of that somewhere, you know, like, we would go with them and show them how and make sure they’re old enough. And there’s a lot that would go into that in the same way, we have to think about letting them into these places and being aware of all the negative that’s there, too. So because they’re going to come across it, whether they want to or not.

Jim Davis
And increasingly more than previous generations, and I love how you talked about it’s about discipleship, because this is people fall away from the church and from, from Jesus, this is a discipleship issue, we have a chapter in our book called The missed generational handoff, where we really dive into a lot of the, the pressures of, let’s say, the back nine. And so this is, I so appreciate because we’re not just playing defense here, although there’s a defensive piece to this, we’re going on the offense, wanting to equip our children to love Jesus be fruitful for him, and do so for the rest of their life.

Meg Robbins
too, I mean, I don’t know that we really painted this part of the picture, but part of it too, is we want, we don’t want to keep it away from them forever, and then be like, Oh, go off to college and good luck, you know, we do want to truly disciple them, which also means being with them when they do fall, you know, like, whether it’s, they’ve gotten caught up and spending way more screen time, you know, there’s comes a point where we have to let go of some of those limits and see how do you do with me being your own judge of time, you know, but also, when they encounter scary things, you know, we have to, we really want to and long to be a safe place for our kids so that when they do make mistakes, or get hit with something that’s, you know, totally inappropriate or whatever, they’ll process that with us. And that’s, that takes time to build that kind of trust with them. So

David Robbins
the number one way you build trust, and that is when you are seeing your own habits of formation and discipleship struggle, and you really being tempted by all different things on your phone, being they see it and being very upfront and going Hey, guys, I need to apologize like I’ve been so consumed at work. I’m going to the bathroom and hiding with Gmail right now. Or I’m choosing to numb out you see me on the couch. Now me now with Instagram, you call me out and it’s a joke and I say go back. But I want to really talk about that because I actually am going to confess right now like I am numbing out and all of a sudden you are helping them with anxiety and depression or isolation they feel or stress that comes in busy seasons. You are acknowledging what they’re seeing and then inviting them into a deeper story and a way to model how to respond and then we have to respond obviously, but thank you Yeah,

Mike Aitcheson
robins, I so appreciate how redemptively you all are handling this discussion, and the emphasis on discipleship and even, you know, the communal aspect of our faith. So to that end, what role do you see the church playing in coming alongside you as parents? Okay. And just as you think about that, what can pastors and church leaders listening do to develop and better grow in these areas to provide resources for you and be a better resource for you and your family and others?

David Robbins
That’s a great question. I just would say, if you’re a pastor or leader asking that question, thanks for being in tune with your people and having a heart for the practical issues going on in their lives and where theology and teaching meets the every day of formation. And, you know, two quick thoughts kind of mine out, I don’t think they’re holistic at all, but they’re the thoughts coming to my mind. And one would be what are what are we inviting people into as far as rhythms in their everyday life, beyond the rhythms of Church activity, and showing up whether that’s Sunday morning, or whatever other systems you have for engagement, programmatic wise, those those everyday rhythms, we want to be a people who blame, not just attend and volunteer, attending the volunteer is showing up as an important thing. It’s part of our formation. But, you know, Justin Whitmore early, the common rule has been a shaping thing. I mean, it’s been so shaping to me, for me, personally, the leader, I want to bring that to my staff, you know, habits of the households is more recent one, I don’t know what it is for each of you, and what’s helping you in this formation. But as pastors and leaders, we have to fight against this too. And whatever is helping you bring it into your church, and whether you know, it, let people know about it, create opportunities around it. The second thing is just you can actually create practical without bringing someone in whether it’s you or a volunteer, leading who has a passion for this, having a rubber meets the road moment that are special opportunities for people to engage. You know, the screen discipleship is always one of the most well attended things. When we’re in family ministry, it always is the thing that people really show up for, because most people have a sense of dread and shame in it, because they know they’re doing it poorly, or they don’t know what to do. And they know their kids are just actually physical, they’re off. And it’s one of those is one of those opportunities, you have to engage your community also, I think, yeah,

Meg Robbins
I don’t even think I would add to that. I totally agree. I think the more I mean, it is the thing that we all spend hours on our phone and on technology every day. And so I just think the more that the church and our pastors and leaders can speak to that, you know, and disciple us in it, and just like, hey, you know, as we’re talking about scripture, and digging into who Jesus is, and what that means, for us, and how the gospel meets us in those places, how does this apply to this thing that we’re spending so much time on to you know, and, and there is a huge need for knowing that we don’t want to just shame you know, we don’t want to leave people in shame, there is so much hope. And there is freedom that Jesus invites us to, including for our phones and how we use them. I’m just

David Robbins
gonna go really practical, and it’s a little different angle on the question. But for leaders and pastors, being willing to do social media fast, and even phone, you’re making your phone a dumb phone for seasons just as a model and see what surprises in your own heart. Because we do get these we get dopamine hits to and an ache in our own heart gets fed by ways we get to interact and how many people are engaging with maybe things we put out there or whatnot. And for them to see Oh, my pastor is modeling that it and you coming back with going here’s things I discovered, man, it can be a powerful thing.

Mike Aitcheson
David, was that a real time rubber meets the road challenge for us. Wow, the Holy Spirit. Timing to he wants to do it.

Jim Davis
Alright, so we obviously live in a culture where choices of gender identity and sexual preference are encouraged. This has created whole new parenting and discipleship issues. All of us know people, if not, who deal with this if not with our own children. So what advice a and David I know you just gave a whole session on on This recently you were flown out to teach somewhere on this. So what advice do you have? As to how to process gender identity sexual preference with different ages children? Is it different with the Boys Girls? I know I’m opening it up a huge thing. But but you know,

David Robbins
we’re closing up our time. And we’re opening up with this question. That’s

Jim Davis
good. Exactly. Yeah.

David Robbins
I’m gonna acknowledge insufficient answer yet. Let’s let’s jump into it for a little bit. As we’re talking about parenting. In this moment, it’s important to talk about this. And this could be a whole other episode and a different season. And there’s actually great resources out there for some of the things that I’ll talk about and share. And then, you know, make jump in whatever. But I think first and foremost, it is a lens of we desire to be compassionate to people, and faithful to the Scriptures. And that’s what Jesus was, he was filled with grace and truth. 100% Grace 100% truth, it wasn’t 5050 5149 Which one do we need to lead with grace and truth over time, being compassionate to people and faithful to the Scriptures. And so I think the way we often lead in church environments in this and as parents wanting to be faithful to the scriptures is we we lead with our position, which is important to know, your position. And I think it’s right and good to have a biblical sexual ethic for our good and for His glory. This is a good thing. But yet, what is our posture and practice around having that position? And so I think it would a very baseline kind of homework assignment, start digging in as a parent, what is your position, but also what’s your posture and practice. And, you know, you mentioned there’s so many angles, we could go, we could just go really practical of what to do. If you do have a kid as a parent that comes to us, and they’re wrestling with same sex attraction or identifying as a different gender questions there. Maybe we have time for that at the end. But I just want to caveat that the conversation with Gen Z and teenagers today really is around gender dysphoria. And that’s the primary and then other things around attraction, almost become secondary. And that is, and I don’t know, I think the church and Christian communities we’ve come a little bit up to speed how to react to attraction. Yet, it’s the gender question that you’re like, oh, wow, I didn’t even know that was the starting place of where this was going. So we just need to even define that gender dysphoria is the distress someone feels beat with the, with the incongruence, where their psychological and emotional gender identity does not match their biological sex that they were given male or female, there’s they’re feeling tension there. And transgender and gender dysphoria has become this huge umbrella term, where I think for a lot of people in our generation, not everybody, but we’re thinking transgender is someone who like they’re, they’re taking hormones, or they’re wanting to have a sex change. And they’re really identifying all the time dressing like the opposite sex than they were biologically given all the time. And that is a side of the spectrum. And some people really do struggle with gender dysphoria at that space, but it could just be specially for teenagers today and middle school. It’s amazing. It does make me sad, the middle school conversation around this when hormones are firing, and people are exploring and what’s being affirmed, I think this is a critical moment for us as, as a church. The other end of the spectrum is just someone that doesn’t measure up and doesn’t feel like the stereotypes of a man and a woman, that who they are. And this is an opportunity for the church that we have often as a church reinforced stereotypes of what a what a womanly woman is and what a manly man is. And if you don’t fit those stereotypes, then the current generation is going well, they’re not maybe I have some gender dysphoria. And in the spectrum is that big. So it’s this huge umbrella term, and I think we as a church get the opportunity. When you look at stats that say things like 27% of California Youth identify as gender non conforming, or neither net male or female 27% Or you look at 50% of millennials, many of them are new parents don’t believe that gender is binary. Or that 12% of millennials identify as trans or gender non conforming neither exclusively male or female in their association. I think a lot of it is the umbrella on this spectrum over here of not fitting I’m a girl who likes pink bows in my hair and play with dolls or I’m a boy that likes to hunt and you know, rip up meat in cold blood like Jim Davis says you know so you know like if you don’t fit that but the Bible is not that narrow in emphasizing culture, gender, you know, cultural gender stereotype. As David went to battle and fog, Goliath, and he also was on a hill playing a harp, while his brothers were a battle, and he was Glee, a man after God’s own heart in both scenarios, Jesus flipped over tables and turn the other cheek. There’s amazing pictures of women in Scripture that did, you know, cook and serve the home and stay in the home. And then you have Deborah, that led Israel into war. And Lydia, who was a wealthy businesswoman helping plant a church, I mean, you know, like, we’d make it sometimes narrow. And this is our opportunity to church specifically with our youth, to not get so narrow. And what we think mainly man or woman, the woman is and look at scripture and not impose on it more than scripture says, again, that may feel a little idealistic, we don’t have questions to go much deeper. But I just I just would want to say that I think that’s the church’s greatest opportunity. When I think about leaders in here, I do want to just speak briefly, any things you’d add to that before, I just want to speak briefly on parents with a kid. That, okay, they’ve, they’ve seen you as safe enough to trust now, it’s always interesting to look at the disclosure gap of someone struggling. And when they actually told a parent that that can be a huge gap, because it takes a lot of courage to actually say, I’m, I’m dealing with this, but you know what not to do, don’t make it about what you feel as a parent, that you feel like a failure. And it’s just suddenly we go into whatever modes we get to when we encounter stress and lodgings, we make it about what we feel, keep the attention on them. And don’t make any kind of threat of leaving home or not paying for college anymore. The aim here is to as they’re trusting you with this information, keep the long term relationship. And then I would say simply, and we you know, we don’t have time to really dive in. So this is way too, you know, first layer, but leave with gratitude. Thanks so much for telling me this. Thanks for trusting me with this, this is an important thing that you were wrestling with. And I know it had to be really hard to tell me. So thank you. Secondly, affirm their safety, and your love for them. This doesn’t change my love for you, I will always you will always be safe with me to share anything with me. I’m here for you in this. And some of that may be by faith because of what you’re feeling. But there’s, there’s just the data out there that when it comes to LGBTQ people, youth in religious environments, they are three to four times more likely to struggle with bullying, self harm and suicide rates. And so if you’re raising your kids in a religious environment, that’s not only Christian environment, by the way, that could be Muslim and whatnot, but a religious environment, just know, they need to know that you’re, you’re safe, and you’re gonna stay in relationship with them. And you’re here for it. And then be curious, and this would often get skipped. likely you’re not the first person they’ve told, and they haven’t told anyone else. Be curious what their journey has been, how has that gone? Sometimes in these days, they’re getting really affirmed. And now they have courage to tell you and so it’s going okay, and I need to know that that’s that’s the message you’ve been getting. Or it could be that they’ve been bullied, how your friends responded to me and that you can interact. One last note is a lot of parents first step is, let’s go to counseling you. Let’s go to counseling. And I would say press pause, and you go to counseling model. First, you process your own grief of dreams, way to engage well, and then go you know, this has been really helpful for me. And if you jumped to it, and you’re going, we’re gonna fix you. That’s what can be heard. But first you go address your own grief, the way you’re processing it, how do you engage well in their journey toward Jesus keeping Jesus the central thing? And then you can say, hey, this has been so helpful for me, would you want to go and process your journey? And anyway, those are a few things.

Jim Davis
I love that. I really do. And, you know, as we finish this, as you said, whether it’s parenting and technology, our last question on gender dysphoria. Are there other resources, if somebody wanted to really dive in any of the things we’ve talked about today, resources in family life or elsewhere that you would direct listeners to?

David Robbins
Yeah, that’s great. I mean, we have really benefited of it. You were gonna say our first resource for teams parenting teens for access. Yes.

Meg Robbins
I mean, we love access. It’s a great organization. They actually send out a weekly email called the culture translator, and that’s free. You can sign up for that. And it basically unpacks easily has like three main things that kids are talking about, or hearing or movie that’s come out. And some of it our kids are not encountering. Some of it is totally the topic of conversation that week. But they even will take one of those three things and give you questions to ask how to dive into this around the table with your kids. It’s super practical. And, you know, to be honest, we do need a cultural translator like the the kids, they’re texting, they’re using, like, all this lingo that we don’t, we can’t keep up with you know, so access is great about that. But they also, you can even subscribe and get access to a lot more resources there specific resources based

David Robbins
on what you need. I was you know, we get to serve with family life. And one of the biggest discipleship resources we have is family life today, which is an ongoing daily podcast and radio show. So you can just search ICA archives, for any of the things that you were like, I wonder if they have anything on that the likely things we’ve referred to her today has been a guest coming in, I get to hear two or three episodes with them and get to be a part of those episodes and listen and learn from them. And then we point you to where their deeper dive expertise is a lot of these things no family life has a great resource called The Art of parenting, which is a video series you can do in a small group that brings up a lot of trajectory building for your kids and crafting a plan for each kid. But when it comes down to diving into the deeper spiritual topics we’ve been talking about today, in a detached environment, it’s there’s many podcasts out there, you can do an archive search, here’s someone and go Ooh, they’re they’re an expert on that, like I could list off for phones. I would go here, you could just go search archives, you’ll find it.

Jim Davis
Well, guys, I just can’t thank you enough for joining us. I know everybody listening knows now why I was so insistent that it be all you you’ve clearly thought a lot about it the no perfect parents, but the grace and the humility and really the, the you keep the main goal in mind? Yeah, I mean, and I know it’s you don’t always nobody has is perfectly but this has been a good reminder of like, what am I really shooting for? And how can I maybe get lost in the weeds instead of keeping the main thing, the main thing so I’m just really thankful for you all as friends more than anything else, but thankful for what y’all are doing with family life and elsewhere. So thank you so much for joining us today.

David Robbins
Thank you guys. And thanks for tackling and diving deep and a cultural moment reality that we’re in really grateful for how you’re serving the body.

Jim Davis
To you, our, listeners, we’re going to dive even deeper in the next episode, we’re going to focus specifically on the high school years with Cameron curl Cole, the founder and and president of rooted youth ministries, and we’re going to talk more about the Miss generational handoff and how we can really take advantage of that back back nine I guess to use your golf analogy. So join us next week.