How Church Abuse Contributes to Dechurched Casualties

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Jim Davis
Welcome to as in Heaven season three. My name is Jim Davis. I am your host and the pastor of Orlando Grace Church. I’m joined by my co host and friend Mike Aitchison, who serves as the lead pastor and planter at Christ United fellowship here in Orlando. And today, we have the pleasure of being joined by a very familiar face if you’ve been with us for a while. This is my good friend, Dr. Justin Holcomb, who is the newly elected Bishop of Central Florida and the Episcopal Church, which is a lot easier to remember than your old title. What was it? Do you remember? Reverend canon something?

Justin Holcomb
It was Canon for vocations. So I was a reverend canon doctor,

Jim Davis
that Reverend canon Dr. For vocation. Okay. Bishop is so much easier. Thank you for moving up the chain here. You’re doing me a favor, use a lot for you. Mainly mainly. So you do a lot of other things. You are also an adjunct professor at reformed Theological Seminary, you, my wife took your class a few years ago, on apologetics, and you’ve written a number of books, both solo and with your lovely wife, Lindsay, and I’ll give a shout out to y’all his newest book, God made babies helping parents answer the baby question. I will say our kids go to school together, we have a lot of overlap in life. And I can personally attest to what a blessing you to have been to us on all levels and stages of that topic. So thank you for coming here and rejoining us here today.

Justin Holcomb
Thanks, man. Yeah, one, it isn’t rejoining, that’s the fun part is being back here in a different capacity, because we got this thing started a few years ago, and then was a co host. And so now being back as a guest is fun. So thank you for having me back. And it was something with Mike too. So all of our kids all go to the same school, one of my daughter’s is in Mike’s daughter’s grade in class, and all that kind of stuff. And so having all the overlap with wives, kids, and being local pastors in this area is kind of fun. So this is, this just makes sense. They,

Jim Davis
well, this is the second in a two part series on what we’ve called the G D church casualties, that is people who have experienced some specific hurt in the church that has caused them not to, not to come back, then this, this could be hurt that the church has done, or another category of just they’ve decided they don’t believe what the Church believes. And we’re going to be focusing on the former here. For the purpose of this episode. We want to focus specifically on abuse in the church and pastoral falls. So we know from our research that between five and 7%, of the Teacher De churched Americans have left because of abuse in the church. And this is something Justin that you have found yourself in the middle of both in some very public ways, and often in some very private ways. And actually, you and I got to know each other because we had a very, very messy, difficult situation in our church and you, you came alongside me I know you will. In some cases, it costs us cost churches, lots of money to have an expert like you and you just came in you served us you weren’t looking for money you just wanted to you cared about the people here and and that just formed a friendship that I’m really thankful.

Justin Holcomb
We met we met no holding goods store like a Home Depot or Lowe’s it was looking for plumbing stuff and all sudden we ended up having a conversation about abuse. And I also haven’t

Jim Davis
I mean, I had I had just been praying God, what do I do in this crazy situation. And there I walk into I think plumbing and there you were. So this this connects because you you in an official capacity, work closely with Grace Ministries, which is an acronym for godly responses to abuse and Christian environments. And in that role, you’ve worked on some of the worst abuse situations and pastoral falls and REITs. In recent times, much of this and your own personal journey has just made you an ideal person to bring on the show and speak to this really sensitive topic.

Justin Holcomb
Can I jump in on that real quick just because so with my wife, we’ve written seven books on abuse prevention and how to respond to abuse, sexual abuse, domestic abuse, children and trauma, and then also some preventative stuff for children. And so that’s professionally, we’ve joined up together. I’m a minister, I’m a pastor. You know, that’s my role. So caring for people. professionally. My wife was a case manager for a sexual assault crisis center and a domestic abuse, shelter, and then personally what I experienced and also So as a child, but also what my wife experienced, in, in a not safe home of not being abused or being threatened, does pull it together. So when you said kind of personal stuff, I wanted to make sure this is personal is professional, this pastor all together.

Jim Davis
Thanks. That’s that’s a very helpful.

Justin Holcomb
Yeah I teach a class at RTS called abuse in the church and a few other seminaries have started doing this, which is really encouraging, which is highlighting the need for this episode. And the reason why you guys are talking about this because it’s becoming more known the significance of abuse. And so the fact that seminaries when institutions start saying we don’t have a course on this, we need one. So I think I’ve taught abuse in the church for different seminars, I’m not even sure right now, because they keep on coming in, which is encouraging. So

Jim Davis
that is, well, let’s start on this topic of abuse. Some, some kinds of abuse are clear, especially when it’s physical abuse, but there’s also spiritual abuse and emotional abuse, which is not always as easily identified, because so as a primer, what is spiritual abuse? What is emotional abuse? And what are the signs that a church leader has crossed this line into that kind of abuse,

Justin Holcomb
I love, love that because most people think abuse they think, because abuse and violence go together, they think as be physical, a lot of the intimate partner abuse, what we used to call domestic abuse. A lot of the most, the physical is obvious when you have wounds and bruises and broken bones. But there’s the verbal, the spiritual, the emotional, just the threat of violence. But it’s not just physical violence, there’s emotional violence, verbal violence, psychological, spiritual, that kind of thing. So I love expanding our understanding of abuse. So let’s look at emotional. It’s emotional abuse, involves, someone tried to control another person by using emotions. Abuse is all about power and control. That’s the goal. And so someone trying to control and misuse power over someone else. And what are the tools they use, they do it well, they do it to criticize, embarrass, shame, guilt, manipulate them. And the most common way we see that are in intimate partner relationships and dating and marriage, some type of intimate partner, but any other type of relationship that can happen by it is hard to have emotional abuse with a stranger just because there’s not a relationship, you’re not manipulating the relationship and identity and communication. But this does happen with co workers, family members, and then in churches it can happen. So the is a pattern of using demeaning remarks and making threats to inflict some type of control or harm to manipulate someone else. And some some signs would be into, you know, being intimidated or threatened or humiliated or, you know, the silent treatment. There’s, there’s some signs of that, that’s, that’s emotional abuse, we can dive back in, on on that we need to on the spiritual one. And this one’s always tricky, because after my wife and I wrote a few books on abuse, people sort of saying, Well, what about spiritual abuse, because it’s all put together. In one hand, any type of abuse that happens in the spiritual setting can be understood as spiritual abuse. So if the pastor is is what we’ll say, cleanly or cleanly. And I don’t mean clean as in like, some type of writing, I just mean as descriptively as possible. If the pastor is having sex with a parishioner who the pastor is not married to. That’s clergy. Sexual abuse is not an affair is not an adultery is actually a misuse of spiritual authority and power. That’s why when clergy you’re like, Oh, well, I committed adultery, and it makes it sound like it was a mutual thing. No, there’s even even laws, no, like Texas and other other states have laws against this. So it’s, it’s actually abusive. So that’s, that’s one. But the reason this is so important is because it’s hard to define. You don’t want to just say, well, if it’s in a spiritual setting, and abuse happens in a spiritual abuse, let’s actually dive into the spiritual side of abuse. And I’m really grateful for two people who started doing work on this. I’m going to read their definitions because I actually use them when I teach abuse in the church are Scott Clark started writing on his blog about spiritual abuse. I taught a class called abuse in the church. And I did some work with the faculty at Westminster, California, and he was in on the conversation and then that day, he started writing about spiritual abuse on his blog. He says demote as the malevolent ungracious use of the authority or processes of the church to lord it over the laity or other officers in the church for personal gain, emotional or psychological manipulation, or for the exercise of ungodly or undue control over others which infringes upon Christian liberty, and that violates the second table of the moral law of God is helpful. And then Michael Kruger wrote a book the bully pulpit, and I endorsed it. He’s, you know, New Testament scholar, you know, oversees a seminary and so the perfect person to write this and people again, people are asking us to do this. And listen, I just thought, now we need need, we need experts who are looking at the scriptures and doing it, we could have tried to do it, but these guys did it so much better. And he defines it as when a spiritual leader such as a pastor, elder or head of a Christian organization, so leader wields his and I want to add in her his or her position of spiritual authority in such a way that they manipulate domineer bully intimidate those under them as a means of accomplishing what he or she takes to be a biblical or spiritual goal. So it really involves three things, a person in a position of spiritual authority, sinful methods of controlling and domineering others, and then being used to achieve godly biblical or spiritual goals. So it’s getting to the right goals when the wrong methods that’s that’s the shortest version, I can give you a definition of spiritual abuse.

Mike Aitcheson
Oh, man, Justin, that’s super helpful. And of course, is it possible though, that the goals can also be warped?

Justin Holcomb
Yeah, that’s, that’s actually, yes. I’m glad you brought that up, because they could actually be manipulated in distorted goals. When it’s distorted when when the pastor is grooming someone for an inappropriate relationship for their own sexual gratification to exploit the other person. That’s clearly a distorted one. And so it’s, it’s easier to see that as like, that’s just off limits. What’s so confusing about spiritual abuse is when it’s actually going into seemingly godly correct direction, but it feels off it feels manipulative and domineering and that kind of thing. Like, absolutely. I want to make sure that third point, sometimes abuses was obviously abuse and then when it gets covered over with spiritual stuff, it’s like, wait a second, this person is in charge in some way. And you know, they’re closer to God. They’re, they work for God. But they’re doing this like maybe something’s wrong with me so that when it is in a biblical, godly direction is super confusing, but absolutely, it can be for distorted means.

Mike Aitcheson
Okay, yeah, it’s helpful. So what, what should someone do if they suspect emotional or spiritual abuse from their leadership from their church leadership?

Justin Holcomb
Yeah. To answer I want to give four resources for your listeners, bully pulpit. I just mentioned Michael Kruger’s book, great book. When narcissism comes to church by Chuck de grote, one of my friends were seminary classmates spectacular, redeeming power by Diane langberg. And then there’s a book by Wade Mullins, I’ve read, I’ve suggested all four of these but his something’s not right, decoding the hidden tactics of abuse and freeing yourself from its power, I would get that weighed Molins book, and all of them are great, but I get that book because it actually works not just with the structures of power, but what’s going on and decoding that. So that’s an objective. It’s really helpful if you’re, if someone is thinking that they are suspecting emotional, spiritual abuse from their church leader, to hear someone who doesn’t know their story, tell them and also they go, they start checking off the list like yep, yep. Yep, that’s true, too. We experienced that with rid of my disgrace, or book on sexual abuse. We went through and gave a checklist of the effects and definition. by about half the people that have talked to us about our book, said, I didn’t even know I experienced sexual abuse, because I thought sexual abuse was just was just I don’t mean to say like that was was right. And you expanded the definition. They didn’t realize it till they read a definition. And when Yeah, they start checking things off, that happens with this wait moments, but something’s not right. Decoding the hidden taxes of abuse and freeing yourself. So that’s, that’s one is best, that’s a personal thing you can do that can be really helpful to have an objective voice from the outside. And again, in addition to that, running it past someone you trust, who is outside of that potential dysfunctional system, if you have an abusive leader in a church, the system’s messed up. It’s a family system that is dysfunctional and dark. And if you ask someone in those that system, they might be making excuses, because they’re actually a part of the family system. So getting someone outside of that system that you trust, being as clear in telling as full of a story as you possibly can. We’re all limited because we’re finite, and we’re following. But being as objective on this person said, this, this is what happened. This felt weird, and see what they register. Talking to a therapist, a counselor is a great way to do this. Also, they’re they’re involved. They’ll help validate when you’re going I thought this kind of felt weird. They go yes, that’s an appropriate response. If you can, if you have access to another pastor in town that this actually happened to me many years ago, I was experiencing something like this local pastor in my hometown, told me he heard about some conflict. I asked him, and the pastor said, oh, yeah, I mean, get out of there. That’s dangerous, and it was so helpful to have another pastor. Another one is just leave Lee get safe if it’s clear. Now, again, it all depends because of what you said, if you suspect emotional and spiritual abuse, if you’re suspecting it, there’s something bad, there’s something jacked up, there’s something wrong happening. That’s not the way it’s supposed to be. Now it could just be sin. And sin needs to be pointed out repented of, or it could be abuse, all of us the sin, but not all sin is abuse. And it’s when it’s abuse, that it needs to be dealt with carefully, but also very strongly. So leaving and reporting it to the denominational authorities or the elders. It depends on the polity, but getting the support you need the healthy care that you need. What I’d also recommend is not just running to Matthew 18 People run in misuse Matthew 18, it’s hard to have a Matthew 18, when there’s a significant power dynamic involved with abuse. And so be careful what I want listeners, but also, you know, especially the church leaders to hear, go read Matthew 18, Jesus is depicting a situation where the offender and the offended are equal footing their peers, the person offended is not in a position to go against their abuser and speak when they are in an abuse situation that the abuse changes things. And then given the nature of the offense and the likelihood that the abuser will respond negatively, and perhaps violently, it’s not even safe for them to go to the abuser if they’re suspecting abuse. And it’s not to say that there are other, there are other steps you can do that involve the church that would still be godly. There’s a godly way to respond to abuse. But Matthew 18 is not just that isn’t getting used as like the blanket response like, Well, they didn’t go to Matthew 18. They didn’t go directly to the person. Well, they didn’t go to the person because the person raped them. What do you what are you expecting them to do? Like there’s a certain level of foolishness that gets played in to the misuse of Matthew 18. Of course, Matthew 18 has inspired scripture that we should follow. But it’s not the the magic solution for all church conflict, especially in cases of abuse.

Jim Davis
All right, so you talk about Matthew 18. Oh, I want to talk a little bit about First Timothy 519, honing in on honing in the focus specifically on the pastor or priest under the general umbrella of pastoral mount malpractice. I think how we handle abuse allegations by the pastor is, is really misunderstood here. So first Timothy 519, says that no one should bring a charge against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. So what has happened in many churches is that a pastor who has committed some form of abuse, or leaders who do and they’re trying to cover it up, whether complicit or otherwise say that the accuser will they need to go away until they can come back when they have more witnesses, which essentially, as you said, with Matthew 18, can shut them down, especially if the nature of the abuse was with was witness lists. So how should we understand this verse and its implications on what we and how we bring this forward.

Justin Holcomb
So the verse do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three. So let’s look at that on on the evidence. though. Let’s go a few verses before that let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of a double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. And that talks about all the qualifications in First Timothy, Second Timothy and Titus. One thing this is not about the text. This is just about a culture of kind of mostly American Evangelical celebrity culture. We’re not using the qualifications that Paul gave to Timothy and Titus, we’re picking famous people who can gather a lot of people. So if we actually first had qualifications in place, we’d have less of these problems now doesn’t fix everything. But we’re actually not far too many churches are not following the basic qualifications of an elder or a deacon first, second, Timothy and Titus. It’s listing them specifically. And so first Timothy five is assuming, first of all, that all the other qualifications have actually been followed, and that the person is actually above reproach. They’ve already shown their, their pattern of life and their theology to be legit good and godly over a long period of time. They didn’t just happen to get on YouTube and grab a microphone and people started following on and they wrote a book of became famous. That’s not how you become a pastor. So what’s the state the obvious? It’s been out now that let’s get to it now. Paul, Paul is saying what, what Moses wrote in Deuteronomy, Deuteronomy 19, Deuteronomy 17. There’s things about accusations against leaders not being based on unsubstantiated charges. So this is actually important. It actually it actually is assuming the best intent of the elder. It does say charge that actually means complaint an accusation or crime. So we can’t there’s no wiggle room there, it’d be really nice. You know, I really wish it just said, you know complaint because then that doesn’t have us in at all. So it sounds like wait a second. These paths are so here’s one thing, some of the pastors who call themselves pastor are not legitimate pastors. So now let’s go to the text. That’s the point I want to make. So imagine, imagine clergy, sexual or clergy, child sexual abuse, the Roman Catholics, this is kind of the stereotype that they’ve been given. The the Roman Catholic Church has nothing on the Protestant church Protestants are actually worse than Roman Catholics on child sexual abuse. A lot of that abuse does not take place with any other witnesses. There are 1000s, if not millions of children who have been sexually abused by a clergy person with no other witness around. So I don’t think Paul is suggesting that that kid should just shut up and not talk about it. Because there’s no more witnesses to bring it. That doesn’t seem appropriate. That doesn’t sit well. And there’s a reason it doesn’t sit well, because that’s not what the passage is saying. Abusers Don’t abuse in front of eyewitnesses, most of them don’t actually there’s some, there’s some research on some of them who actually do as a power move. But that’s that’s the second like, the preposition in First Timothy 519 is in the genitive case. And prepositions are not always obvious and clear. You have to know how Greek works. And if it’s to be interpreted on the evidence of which three of the translations that most people go to have it, then it is the only place in all of scripture where it has that meaning on the evidence of it’s never used like that. That’s actually a bad interpretation. Look at x 2510. Paul answers and says, I’m standing before Caesars tribunal using that same preposition in the genitive case. And it seems impossible in a legal context that he would mean on the evidence of Caesars tribunal. So what it actually means is before, you know, meaning to be judged, and found either guilty or innocent by Caesar, it seems to make perfect sense. And so I suggest that that bad translation of First Timothy 519 is causing a mess. First Timothy 519 gets used like Matthew 18, don’t receive an accusation, except in front of two or three witnesses that actually do something about it. That’s what First Timothy 519 is a lot longer just to get there. But I wanted people to feel, feel the difficulty of the MIS translation, if this is the inspired Word of God, and you’re not supposed to bring a charge unless you have witnesses, which is a principle of Scripture, that is a principle as a basic principle don’t have unsubstantiated charges. That is not what’s being said by Paul, nowhere else in the Bible is that preposition used on the evidence of because it means before two or three witnesses, so don’t bring so then if you put that in there says, don’t bring a charge. Unless you’re bringing it before some witnesses, you can actually do something about getting justice. That is a very different meaning.

Jim Davis
So it’s a lot. I mean, just that feels right. I mean, in with any scripture, when when you see what it’s really saying it feels it should feel right. And the reason I ask is because you brought up Matthew 18. So if those are misunderstandings, then what, what I want to ask, let me let me say like this, I gotta be very vague, because, but I was brought into a church one time, where there was a sexual abuse case. And I want to assume the best about the elders in this church. But there were at least one or two that didn’t, that thought the information should go to them before authorities that they should have some filtering out. And this was a minor, too. And so when I came in, I was clear, no, this goes straight to the authorities. And assuming the best, they just they didn’t know i’ve just have, I’m just going to try to assume the best here. They didn’t know, it didn’t seem like they were trying to cover it up. But in any case, it was it was just this eye opening moment about how for me how many people church leaders do not know the first two to four steps that they need to take when presented with some sort of abuse in the church. So could you give that to us two to four steps? What are the first most crucial things to do as a church leader when you hear about suspected abuse? in your midst?

Justin Holcomb
Yeah, first I admire and I get your desire to have the best possible interpretation. I try to do that too, especially with elders leaders. The nicest thing I can say about people who would in that case that would say should come to us first is that they are very ignorant and dangerous. And that’s the nicest thing I can say, as an ignorant fool. foolish and dangerous approach.

Jim Davis
What’s the worst thing you could say? I mean, let’s just go both ways. I’m not I’m just saying you got to spectrum what you got. That’s the nicest side what would be the more they’re complicit

Justin Holcomb
in abuse and helping cover up and they are guilty of the good old boy club or good old girl club, depending on how that works out. And they are covering up and probably perpetuating future abuse in the lack of healing for the victim that has brought this to the church. And so they are a barrier to the Gospel, being plucked to a victim. And Jesus has some things to say about that about millstones. And I need elders and what elders and church leaders to hear Jesus’s words clearly you want to be on the other side of the millstone conversation, and elders who think that it’s their job. Usually when churches do this, this is what happened with sovereign grace is they tried to keep it in house. Yeah, we years ago, we used to talk about this from Grace gobbled responsible of using Christian environments and people came against us, how dare you now everyone’s on the same page after they slandered grace. On that case, they tried to keep it in house, keep the authority keep the civil authorities out of the picture, so they could keep it in house now, for who knows about their intent. But um, that’s dangerous. So going back to your specific question where the first few things you can do, the first thing when you are told a story about abuse is to listen and believe them. The first thing you can do is listen and believe them. All of the research on Survivor care says you should. Active listening in indicating belief is the most important thing someone can actually do. They went through and said, You know what 10 different behaviors you can do. Number one, from survivors of abuse is being listened to and believe. And you can one you can listen, that’s the first thing you should do is, is listen, just actually pay attention. Ask if you can take notes indicate in any way possible that you’re listening to them. Don’t interrupt them. And don’t ask probing questions, let them unveil their building of trust in you. And then most people, most most people do not lie about abuse. It’s the least falsely reported crime there is. So you can assume if someone’s telling you something that they’re actually telling you the truth, there’s probably more, it’s probably worse than you’re imagining. So it’s easy for me to listen, and then I’ll leave, I’m always assuming there’s something more. There’s one case where my wife who is a survivor advocate was lied to one that she knows of almost every single time. Everything I’ve heard is not only accurate, but it’s worse than they told me in the initial disclosure. So listening and believing is a very, very crucial and important step. Now you don’t have to say I believe everything you’re saying by what we need to be like, you’re indicating I’m listening to you. And that’s even if you’re not even sure that sounds unfathomable to say, sounds amazingly difficult, like we give back to them at least acknowledge help believe how they feel. So that’s huge. The second is respond. Well, so responding to abuse that looks like one if your church doesn’t have policies, have a policy on how you will respond to abuse. So respond is not always an individual, as you do and listening and believing but respond as a church, how does the church handle this, and then respond by initiating it with the authorities. And so that responding is going back to your question, Jim, is a lot of abuse cases that people will hear. You’re a mandated reporter, you need to go to the authorities called Child Protective Services, I call them three or four times a year I hear cases, I call them and go, what’s the best way to navigate this. And sometimes I’ll say, go to the police. This isn’t how you should handle it, this is a better way to handle it call child protective services, call the non emergency police line, you might need to call the emergency police line depending on what that abuse is there’s a spectrum of abuse. And so the intensity of how you respond is going to fall. Think what in here going back to that thing that your original question about going to the church or not going to the authorities. Christianity today? did years ago, and we’ll find it for listeners have shownotes. They they did a survey of Survivor advocates. And the original question that they did a Christianity Today was if if a if a woman is being abused by her husband who claims to be a Christian, should the should the woman go to the pastor first or the police? That was the original question. And then, like three or four or five of us all responded and said go to the police first. CT came back and said we got to change the question. Why should an abused woman go to the police first instead of the pastor? So it was amazing to everyone across the spectrum that they got? They got complementarians egalitarians, they got the holes spectrum of anyone who believes in Nicene Christianity to say how should you respond? We all said the same thing. And what you go to the authorities because clergy are not experts on abuse, abusers are masterful at deceiving. They’ve been deceiving themselves and their victim and other people, probably for years and decades, there used to actually, many abusers have many victims in their life, not just like one, if the survivor if the if the victim, or the perpetrator says, oh, man, I, this is the first time I’ve ever done this is probably a lie. And they’ve been lying to themselves, to their parents, to their children, to their spouse, to their friends, to their pastors to their co workers, for years, years. And so you getting in the room with him and ask him all the tough questions is not likely going to bring you the clarity you want because they know how to deceive you. And they even deceive themselves. So listen and believe, respond as a church. Know what your policies are by going to the authorities when necessary. And then handling it as a church and scriptures. First Timothy and other passages have things that you do when there is sin done, as you go public with it, church discipline, proactive care for survivors, and then responsible care for abusers. And I can say a few things about proactive care, which is don’t just you know, thanks this deal with it. Church dives in it says how can I get you the care you need? I can be your pastor, here’s some support Can we can we help support you with getting a therapist or counselor who can help navigate through this? What’s needed for the care for your child was needed for years, depending on what kind of abuse it is the church should be able to step in and support and then responsible care. The abuser if they profess faith in Christ, and they repent. Then they’re showing evidence that their brother or sister in Christ, but being responsible, what’s the most loving thing for an abuser is not to let them continue in their their bondage of abuse, and not to let them sin again, and it does and also protecting others who could be harmed by them. So what’s it again, on that spectrum? What’s the most loving thing for that person who’s an abuser, also not just the most loving thing for the survivor, but the abuser, and that would look like all the way from a fair, unknown child sex offender, they’re never allowed to be around children. They’re never allowed to be in the church with children, there’s certain standard, or if it’s on a different part of the spectrum. There’s ways that there’s responsible care for abusers, that protects everybody and themselves. And so one example one church, we had registered sex offenders, tier one, which is the kind of three tiers tier one, they had to register. Every time they came to church. And they had to go to a service that we created, they had no children, and everyone knew their registered sex offenders at that service. We went all victims of abuse to be aware of that in case that was activating or triggering for them. But these pastor, these, these, these people wanted to come to church, and there was the Lord’s table and they repented. And they were they also assumed all of the consequences. They were not making excuses. They showed everything about godly repentance, not worldly sorrow, and responsible care for them was not letting them be tempted in certain ways, but also giving them communion and letting them come to church in a certain way, according to certain standards. So listen, respond as a church proactive care and respond proactive care for survivors and proactive care responsible care for abusers.

Mike Aitcheson
Yep, Justin, that there was so much wisdom there. Okay, but I’d like to just come back to how the church should handle it. Right. So can you speak to where it’s appropriate to make something that’s public that might bring shame on on the victim? How do we navigate okay, if there’s a major leader in the church that has committed such a heinous infraction, and disclosing it to the church, but also protecting the dignity of the victim? Because, you know, questions come up. Well, who brought this accusation? How do we know this is real? You know, all the different responses that could be incited as a result of that? Could you could you speak to that?

Justin Holcomb
Yeah, that that’s, that’s a pastor asking a question. I love that. That’s, I mean, that’s it. You want to honor the agency of the survivor. That’s huge. If the survivor I know some cases where the survivor wants to be named in the church setting like this happen they for them, there’s that’s an empowering thing. Others, they don’t want to be named because they they know going against the pastor, even if it’s true, somehow, they’re going to be maligned. Because the pastor is beloved, in many places, the pastors are beloved especially When celebrity settings, but the way you do that is, again, on that spectrum, if we’re talking about abuse, let’s just say, once we’re talking about abuse and a church leader, abusing that is always public. No reason. Now, depending on how that how that relates to spouse and children of that leader, if they’re not involved, sometimes the spouse isn’t involved. But if the spouse and the children are not involved, how do you honor them, but the church leaders stuff, if it’s abuse must be made public, this is the problem. This is why the Southern Baptist Convention had such a problem with the use Houston Chronicles that came out years ago, because they were just moving them all around. People make fun of the Roman Catholic Church and, you know, moving priests around. Again, I said this earlier, Protestants are way worse, the more fragmented the policy polity, the more issues you’re going to have, because they just go to another town and sometimes down the road. churches don’t communicate with each others, and so abusers use going from church to church, but make it public. Now, abuse cases could be on most cases, abuse cases are disqualifying. So remove them if you need to figure out what’s the most loving thing for the spouse and children. And then that goes public, whatever the policy is, different churches. So in the Episcopal Church, we actually have a thing called Title four. And it’s our is our restoration is discipline and restoration, title forests for restoration, restoring them as a brother and sister in Christ, not into a position of authority. If I’m I’m very comfortable saying that if a clergy person, Minister, Pastor, priests, abuses, they are disqualified. They’re gone, they’re done. And then on very, very strict guidelines would restoring them back to the office be something that I think would be wise to err on the side, if you’re going hunting. And I know Jim, you hunt if you go hunting with your kids, and you hear a rustle in the bushes. You don’t just pull over the gun and just shoot at the rustling

Jim Davis
could be when he accidentally some people do but that’s it. That’s terrible. So

Justin Holcomb
if you’re like, Okay, note, flip that and reverse. Like, why would you just if someone has shown you who they are, they misuse power to abuse it for their own. They’re in Ezekiel 34. They’re not a shepherd, they’re a butcher. Why would you go Ellis assume the best, you should not assume the best anymore, you should assume the worst? And how do you restore them as a brother or sister in Christ, that’s a whole different thing. For the, for the survivor, honoring their desire is huge. I’ve seen it done both ways. On good on good friends. The one case, I have the letter, I got permission for this letter, the church gave me the letter that they read to the entire church, from the elders, to the church, that was addressed to the survivor who wanted to remain nameless. And it was beautiful. Like I remember the elders brought me the letter. This is an another denomination of my own, brought me the letter I’m reading it, weeping is so beautiful man, I got permission to send this letter other people. So I do I take off all, no any clear indications of anything that would give a clue of who this is. But for the authority of the Church to say we are so sorry for what happened you, we are so proud of your courage. And this is the gospel, the work of Jesus Christ is applied specifically to the sin and crime that you experienced. We want to support you. And we want everyone to know that you were brave and courageous, and that if anyone comes against you to gossip about you and say something about your character, we’ll take care of it, we’re supporting you. Like that rarely happens rarely, even when a church handles the abusive side. Well, they don’t know what to do really with the survivor. And so that’s Does that answer the question, Mike, that’s

Jim Davis
okay, to you, as you’re doing really well. And I want to stick with the survivor here. Because again, the focus of this season is the D church where they’re going, why are they leaving? Where are they going, what’s going to bring them back? And and I want to focus this specifically on survivors who have left the church because of some form of abuse or malpractice. And I will say as we were writing the book, The Great D churching. You and your wife were both really helpful to me and thinking through because we addressed this in the book Thinking through how to walk with people who have legitimately left because of this kind of abuse or proximity to this abuse. And they’ve just decided I’m I’m done. I don’t want to go back to any kind of church, for the people listening who have loved ones and friends who are in that position. I want you to I would love to hear basically, I’ve already heard what you have to say that was so helpful to me. What would you say A to those people who want to minister to their friends and their loved ones, who are those survivors that five to 7%.

Justin Holcomb
Yeah, first I’d want to say I don’t blame you. That’s the, that’s an actually healthy response to abuse is to get as far away as possible from it. That’s huge. But like, when the person goes, I was abused in that setting, I don’t want to go back to that setting like I was rear ended. And 20 years ago, when I was a graduate student at Emory, because I hit my brakes stop at a red light and this guy slammed into me, to this day, when I hit my brakes a little bit faster than I want to just a little bit, I look in the rearview mirror, like it. And that’s, that’s getting rear ended 20 years ago. How much more if you were in a setting that you thought was life giving, encouraging about grace, love, hope, the future purpose. And you’re abused in that same eye, the leader of that group. And so the natural response is to get as far as natural, healthy responses get as far away from possible where you could potentially be hurt again. So brilliant, move on getting away. I don’t blame you. And then, when the abuse happens in the church, frequently, bump Bumbles in fumbles and causes more harm. So you had a gaping wound of abuse, they’re not believed they’re threatened. They’re the bad person. You’re pour salt in the wounds, which just stings even more. So there’s a reason why many people who were abused in the Christian environment never go back to church, because they don’t trust it. Don’t blame them for not trusting it. Now, what’s fascinating about people who have been abused, that left the church is many of them claim to Christ and His good news really strongly. That’s why I love the research that you all are doing, because what you’re finding is that in some of the research I did previously, and I do in my apologetics class, is that people who have D churched, many of them haven’t just given up on the faith. They haven’t turned away. They haven’t gone apostate and said, We’re done with Jesus. Actually, they are holding on to the resurrection, the amount of D church people who believe in the bodily resurrection is actually surprising. I love doing this apologetics and to churches. Yeah,

Jim Davis
I think with do church, evangelicalism, it’s something like 67% still believe in the resurrection. Yes, I could be a percent or two off, but I’m not much more than our

Justin Holcomb
if anything, you are percent or two off because the research I did separately was 66%. There, you gotta leave. And so and in surveys, your one or 2%, your best bullseye, two thirds of the church, people believe in the bodily resurrection. That’s huge. That means like, that’s why I love your work. And so what I would also want to say is don’t equate like, so then you get into pastoral, so hey, I believe yeah, here, I don’t blame you. Do not blame you one bit. And I think it’s actually a healthy response that you did leave. Now, let’s not equate the person and work of Jesus Christ to His church. Now, we should associate the two, they are related to each other. But there are churches where that does not happen. Now finding out what churches they are and all that kind of stuff is difficult to find. But maybe not dismissing the entire institution of the church would be would be a good thing to consider. Now, you can also find other ways to get the spiritual nurse there are mean throughout the history of the church. I mean, going into an institution of a church of a building is one thing. But there are small groups that participate like churches, there are ways for you to have spiritual friendship, community and nurture. And there are churches around the world that they have pastors who lead no thanks to finding a way to receive the preached word receive the sacraments or ordinances and the life of doing this together. That’s what I want to say is, what else? There’s a few other things. We’re friends. So what am I leaving out that I may have said before, or

Jim Davis
it was great. And I also think about, you know, helping that person, you know, letting them know, they don’t have to give affirming the choice they made. But helping the door open to maybe there is a safe church out there when you’re ready. And then maybe, you know, the entry point doesn’t have to be right away the church, maybe it’s a Bible study. And then there’s a good group of friends that said, hey, when you’re ready, we’ll go with you. And here and here are the questions that you should be asking your new church and I get asked these questions. You know what? Questions to hold me accountable. I’m a new member class, there was actually a counselor who was joining the Church recently and said, asked me what kind of accountability I have. What would happen if a B or C happened? What’s built into the structure, and they were great questions and just helping those people know, your expectations are good. And let’s help you find a church whose leaders have the same expectations.

Justin Holcomb
I love that that’s, that’s, I do the same thing when I, when I have friends who go, Hey, what’s your should I go to? And I’ll call around, I’ll be like, Hey, where’s the church, right and trust this person, they’re, they’re coming from an electrician, and they’re moving to San Diego or Wisconsin or New York. And I go around and call and so I love that proactive helping them find a church say, hey, let’s get a healthy one. Because not all churches are healthy, you’re acknowledging you’re actually affirming what they’ve experienced. And there are some grace godly responsive using Christian environments does certifications. So I frequently find out when people asked me, Hey, who I’ll just call them and say, Hey, what churches in this area have been certified. Not that that does not have silver bullets, not proven, but the fact that the church is taking it so seriously, they’re getting certified. There’s a group called plus one. I was on their podcast and is for single moms. And I worked with her and she’s making a list with her community of specifically women, and maybe men too, but who have experienced intimate partner abuse, domestic abuse, and they want to find out because many women who’ve been abused and men are abused to in relationships, one out of 20 men, so I’m, while I’m talking about women, I want to make sure we understand men are have experienced domestic abuse. But women when they’re in a church setting, they usually or take the brunt of coming forward about their husbands covenant breakings mind boggling that the abused woman would take the brunt of his covenant breaking, because God hates divorce. We’ve all heard that. And he also hates violence, the Bible said, so a few 100 times. And even a part about a hitting divorce is not being applied properly, according to the Word of God and how they should be interpreted and applied. Anyway. They’re working on a community of saying, hey, what churches have you found that are really healthy on this? So there are groups out there that are working on helping people have experienced abuse, find healthy churches, so I love the vision that there is. And then the other thing, just on a pastoral says, people have left the church. Many of them have been in settings where there’s a high view of church and they feel guilty already. They feel like they’re letting God down. And they’re a JV version of a Christian, because they’re not strong enough to go to a church even though they were abused in a church setting. And so a lot of what’s animating that is some anger, a lot of pain, but a ton of guilt. That’s what I’ve seen. And that’s why I like your response, Jim, because it’s it has a graciousness to it of like, hey, maybe we can find you a safe place that that you would feel, feel comfortable and safe. And because they’re there, a lot of them are carrying a burden. That’s not their burden. That’s the burden the church has given them, that Satan has given them that their consciences given them. But Jesus is saying no, we have passages in the Bible about the leaders that harmed you zekiel 34 and the millstone passages they’re like, look at what Jesus says about people who have harmed children and people who harm the sheep. God goes nuts when his sheep or her Zachariah says, Whoever touches you touches the apple of my eye. The language there is plunder. Whoever harmfully touches you, it’s like they’re sticking their finger in God’s eye, the most precious vulnerable place there is. So the Bible is filled with protection of God’s people and God’s desire to protect them. And when the church is going against God, the church might need to watch out because it’s not acting like church. And Jesus chops those things off the vine and throws them into the fire and millstones. And so you’re we should have those expectations of being safe in a place to worship God with other Christians and other sheep as a godly in good go and I love that’s why I love the response that you asked Mike about caring passed away for the victim and you Jim about the the gentle patient, let’s go one step at a time and see where you’re comfortable. That’s That’s it sounds like a pastoral godly way. It sounds like way Jesus but

Jim Davis
we’re going to hit pause with Justin Holcomb as we finish talking about abuse in the church and look forward to next week picking back up with Justin in hearing more about pastoral falls and how exactly they have affected the great D churching. Stay with us next week.