How to Live in the Fellowship of Christ’s Sufferings

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Collin Hansen
Ray, you kicked off the conference, it was so encouraging. It was a great passage for you to look at for a variety of different reasons, but in part because of the element related to the family, and talking about Timothy’s family. And so you were able to talk a little bit about that. And maybe you can elaborate on that here in a second. But I want to start with one there. Now, Timothy had pole to watch, and also his grandmother Lois and his mom, Eunice. I was wondering, who did you watch? In faith? Who did you watch? And what did you learn about following Jesus watching that person?

Juan Sanchez
Yeah. So I didn’t come to faith in Christ level 17. I heard the gospel for the first time at 15. And I just totally rejected it. I grew up in a Catholic home, and my parents were nominal Catholics. Ironically, I was very devout. And so I didn’t look to my parents, I look to a priest, who, you know, who discipled me, so to speak in the ways of the Catholic Church. But when the Catholic Church was no longer answering my questions, then, you know, then I began asking questions. And, and the irony was, is I, I actually was looking for people. And I couldn’t find people. And so I, I went to people who had written books. And so my first mentor was Jack Packer. And there was something going on in the church, and I didn’t understand it. I mean, I was so green in new, I didn’t know labels. And so I just started reading about the charismatic movement and these kinds of things. And, and I read his book, keep in step with the Spirit, and he just hooked me. And so then I read, knowing God, and that was my introduction, Reformed theology. So So I remember actually asking people to mentor me and disciple me, and I was the first one to come to faith in Christ in my family. And so I guess that’s part of a story. Some, someone has to begin the legacy, I guess. And so by God’s grace, there were faithful men who wrote books. And they mentored me from a distance.

Collin Hansen
Kevin, what about you?

Kevin DeYoung
I had one of those boring testimonies that we’re so thankful for. And we we want our children to have as well, so I don’t use it as a pejorative phrase.

Grew up with loving parents, who, as I said, in the sermon made us go to church all the time, Wednesday night, and Sunday morning and Sunday evening, and I was glad church wasn’t open any other time. We would have been there. And thankful for that, and didn’t even realize what what that was doing. And just parents and I need to tell myself this as much as anyone, don’t underestimate those habits that you’re passing on to your children, and you want to teach them and you want to shepherd a child’s heart and you want to have those great conversations. But just those those rhythms, that it was fixed in me. We go to church. It’s just it’s it’s not something we kind of, what do we do that that’s what we do. And of course, you can do that in a wrong way in a formalistic way. But all of that served me very well and hope to pass that on. So certainly, my parents and in books when I really started to make my faith my own in college. Real quick, when I was in a freshman in college, I had three people on the floor, and one was a nominal Christian one was a a hedonist and not the good John Piper kind, bad guy. He just wanted to live for sex, he said. And then I had another guy who was into crystals and Ricki Lake. For those who were around in the 90s.

Collin Hansen
It was a strange time, you have to be one

Kevin DeYoung
or the other. They supplied me with questions one night, well, how can God send people to hell? What about the Buddhists who’s never heard? What about all these things? And I felt like I’ve been in church my whole life, and not sure if I know what I believe or why believe it wasn’t the fault of anyone but me, really. So I got those two little books by IVP know what she believed? No, I believe it. And then I underlined them, and they had pictures and it was just write what I needed. And then I thought maybe I could read something else. So my dad had a copy of Calvin’s Institute’s it’s a little bit of a jump, but I just it was amazing that I thought, you know, you just have in your head as a kid, like, those are old, but people don’t read those books anymore. Those people are long gone. That was we read about those books in history, we don’t actually read them. And so to think I can read it and I just made a point to read through it five pages a day for that year, and then I didn’t understand a lot of it. So I read through it again, five pages a day. And so Calvin was a mentor for me, and then that got me and a whole bunch of other good books and good sermons and lots of good people in my life. I’ve been very blessed. I didn’t hear about your dad.

Ray Ortlund
Okay. Glad to tell you. I remember one morning, when I was maybe 10, or 12 years old, I got up early, I don’t remember why I walked downstairs, and there was my dad, he did not orchestrate this. But you can’t live with the man of God for 18 years, and not walk in on some pretty great moments. And my dad was just there at a chair in the living room, dealing with his face buried in his hands in silent prayer.

And I remember that so vividly to this day. It’s hard for me not to be careful on a Sunday morning, before I leave the house, to get on my knees at a chair, bury my face in my hands and pray, because my dad did. And he didn’t do that to make an impression on me. He didn’t know I was up, he had a real walk with God. And to this day, I think, you know, my dad walked with the Lord, I can walk with the Lord, the same grace is upon me. And so you know, even right now, as I think about that, I just kind of choke up.

Collin Hansen
And here in Southern California, yeah,

Ray Ortlund
how far away very near nearby? Yeah. There are Christians in California.

Collin Hansen
Grateful to be among them. Second, Timothy, I was reading through it, preparing again and again, and just absolutely struck by the theme of suffering comes up explicitly six times, as we look through this, look through this book of the Bible. And I’m wondering, just will maybe look into some of the specifics of how we suffer and how we endure in ministry. But I’m interested, I’ll start with you on this one, Kevin. I mean, how do you watch your life and bear up and suffering for the gospel? You know, we know that there’s the world, there’s the flesh, that is the devil, our suffering comes in a variety of different forms and a variety of different places in ministry. But it is so explicit the connection between suffering for the sake of Christ for the sake of the Gospel, Jesus told us to expect this. It was not a surprise to Paul, he, of course, had been on the other side of inflicting that on the followers of Christ. So So what are some of those ways, whether it’s practices, whether it’s beliefs that you preach to yourself, whether it’s truths that you hold on to that help you to bear up under that suffering, that comes specifically in ministry that hinders our endurance?

Kevin DeYoung
The first thing I would say is, I certainly don’t put forward myself as any great hero, I think. I feel like I’ve probably suffered less than most 41 year olds. But ministry has hard seasons, for sure. And there are pain and there have been tears. I think of, you know, Hebrews, we often miss the connection that Jesus tempted, was tempted when he suffered. So the endurance is suffering isn’t just this hurts, this stinks, this is painful. I want to get through it. There are temptations to you. When you suffer, and you need to know your own heart and have the Lord reveal that to you to understand what your unique temptations may be in the midst of suffering. I can tell you a couple that that I readily face. One, it happens imperceptibly happens over time, you know, no one goes into ministry thinking, I hope not you know, I just want to coast I just want to get through I just want people to like me, you go in because you’re passionate, you want to preach the gospel, you want to help people you want to love people, but you get some scars, you get some hurts. And without realizing it, you can your new ministry model becomes make it through life without too many people hurting me without too many difficulties, and try not to compromise too much. And I think we’d be surprised how many pastors have just that’s become what they do not not rank apostasy, but that suffering has tempted them. So I always tell people, it’s not that pastors suffer more, but the temptations they fake can be can be cataclysmic, if they give into that, and then the other temptation, you know, I would feel and probably most of us would, is that temptation to feel sorry for ourself to start thinking, probably another place I’d be more appreciated. Probably something I could do that would be better. I don’t I don’t need to put up with this and probably somebody who would really, really appreciate this and what about all the things I did for that person? And again, the answer is not emotionless stoicism I just think has anything ever good come out of feeling sorry for ourselves. That’s not saying we are not honest about pain, honest about hurt, but that that inward self pity. Where’s my toe? You know, you’re just anything good on it, but it feels good. It feels good for a time, which is why we do it and why it’s such a temptation.

Collin Hansen
Were you surprised? Were you surprised Kevin? And how difficult ministry was?

Kevin DeYoung
Yes, yes. I mean, people told me people give you these things. And you can hear the stories and until you go on a long walk, feeling like I didn’t know that person that I care for so much could hurt me so badly. And you go through all of the scenarios of everything you feel like you did, and you were there and you were helping and they don’t, they forgot it, and they don’t see it. I mean, those things hurt, hurt deeply. And there’s many, many joys for sure. But there’s real real pain and

Ray Ortlund
suffering is bewildering. As we’re buffeted by life by reality, in a broken world by our own confusion, and we lose our bearings, we lose our way. I am so grateful for the realism of the Bible. It it talks about suffering on a literally cosmic scale, the sufferings of this present time, and in that setting. I love Romans 826, it is so helpful and encouraging. Likewise, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. Somebody at a TGC council meeting pointed out one time, it’s not plural weaknesses. The Spirit helps us in our weakness. Weakness is not one more experience alongside all these other experiences. Weakness is the foundation or platform on which we have all experiences. We have never known for one nanosecond in this life, a moment of non weakness. So we’re not offering the Lord how formidable we are. We’re presenting ourselves to the Lord in realism in weakness, and the spirit does not despise us in our weakness. The Spirit helps us in our weakness, especially in prayer. If we can’t pray, if we feel so shut down, and shocked by betrayals, and so forth, that we’re not even connecting with the Lord in any way that satisfies us. What do we do then? That’s terrifying. And it says For we do not know what to pray for as we ought but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. J I Packer says in his book, on prayer, the spirit fixes our prayers on the way up, I am so grateful for that. When we are bewildered and buffeted and confused, and all we can do is groan. The Holy Spirit within understands the profundity of what we’re going through and takes it and translates it into something that serves the creation of the new universe. Hey, that’s the kind of weakness I can get behind now.

Collin Hansen
No, one.

Juan Sanchez
You know, I think it’s important to distinguish like you said, Christian suffering, or maybe it was you earlier, there’s a difference between Christians suffering and just suffering. Sometimes our suffering in ministry is self inflicted, you know, my first pastorate? You know, I went wide eyed, idealistic, and a lot of things I took for granted. And I needed to be humbled. And some of that was a mercy of the Lord, the suffering he did in my life. It was a humbling that was necessary, but some of it was, was suffering because of faithful ministry. And what I find fascinating to me is suffering is is there throughout the entirety of Scripture. You know, Psalm two says that God places His son on his throne, and the nation’s rage. Luke picks up that theme, and in Jesus suffering and the suffering of the apostles. He ties that to Psalm two, and basically says, the persecution that the apostles were suffering, it’s the nation’s raging against God’s king. And so what I understand biblically, is our Christian suffering is getting caught up in the nation’s rage against the fact that God has placed Jesus on the throne. And in in, in second Timothy 310, Paul tells Timothy, you followed my teaching my conduct my aim in life, my persecutions in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra wood that acts 14 and an x four tene when Paul goes back to strengthen the churches, how He strengthens them, he says, continuing the faith, and it is necessary to suffer. And you got to ask, how is that strengthening? It’s necessary to suffer? Well, when you read Paul, it’s necessarily suffer because our suffering, paints a picture for the unbelieving world and for the Church of the sufferings of Christ on their behalf. Right, second Corinthians chapter four. He talks about we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed, perplexed, but not driven to despair, persecuted, but not forsaken struck down but not destroyed, always carrying in the body, the death of Jesus so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. So our Christian suffering serves as a picture of Christ’s suffering on our behalf. But I also think it’s necessary for us to suffer because suffering is a means of our perseverance. And it prepares us for heaven. You know, Paul goes on to say in Second Corinthians four. So we do not lose heart though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. For this light, momentary affliction is preparing us for eternal weight of glory, beyond all comparison. And so I’m just I’m humbled. Now, I’m understanding a little bit more and more why the apostle saw it is a privilege to suffer for Christ’s sake.

Collin Hansen
Have there been any biographies or stories of Christian figures from the past that have helped you in this aspect? You know, I’m wondering about when you’re reading about John Calvin, you’re reading his Institute’s does it help to know some of what he some of his anxieties, his anxieties for the people, that he pastors his his desire to not have been a pastor in the first place, to not have ever had to be in Geneva, the constant threat of, of Catholic armies upon his city, the rivalry that he had with the government, with the civil authorities? There? I’m just wondering, I mean, I think about Edwards, think about Jonathan Edwards, and all that he endured and to think of all these amazing, amazing treatises that he wrote that we benefit from today, on the freedom of the will and on any number of other things that he wrote from Stockbridge, after he’d been fired by his congregation, which I think is almost impossible to imagine that situation, I’m wondering has have any biographies been especially helpful, or any figures in particular, as you’ve, as you’ve learned about their suffering and seen how, look, look how, look how the Lord sustained them. Through this, he can do likewise with me

Kevin DeYoung
give you an obvious example, that’s not a biography. It’s a living example. And just because I’m thinking about it yesterday, you know, we had asked Johnny Erickson Tata, if she would speak at this event, better to speak. And she’s from California. And she said, Oh, I’m, I’m going to be in Charlotte at that time, over here, but we overlapped one day, and so she had her 69th birthday yesterday. And you noticed the accident over 50 years ago, when they thought maybe you’ll live 25 more years that someone said the average life expectancy expectancy for those born in 1949 was at that time, 65 years, which is exceeded. But just so I was there, and there’s 50 other people there, and she birthday party and people shared and just, you know, you can’t help but see her and know something of her and lots of you would have read her books or been to something and, and I thought her ministry is Christ’s likeness, in the things she teaches and things she writes, but her ministry is Christ’s likeness, that is through constantly the lens and the chair of suffering. And so, you know, I didn’t get a chance to say this today, because I didn’t get to leave the house at four this morning. But, you know, I wanted to say, you know, when I listened to someone like that, first I think, am I a Christian? But the second I think I want to know Jesus, I want to know Jesus more. And I want to know, even if even if it is the fellowship of sharing his sufferings is somehow attained to the resurrection of the dead. So there are living biographies out there, and it’s not the way that the world would just the world is IE I mean the world it’s easy for people in the world to say somebody suffer, we feel sorry for you. Oh, I mean, that’s Undercover Boss, your life is bad. We’ll give you something American Ninja Warrior. Remember, backstory, it’s all we love the story of somebody suffering and then. So it’s not just all your suffering, I mean, it is triumphant. I want to sing songs to Jesus and get to heaven, Christ likeness. And so so it’s a word of encouragement and admonition to me and to all of us, no matter what you’re doing in ministry, what you think you’re not doing, not accomplishing. You can have the ministry of Christ likeness to others.

Ray Ortlund
Philippians three refers to the fellowship of His sufferings. How could it be otherwise, we are blood, but there have been books that have meant a lot to be like the shadow of the Almighty, about Jim, Elliott’s life, the life of Francis Schaeffer and Edith, the tapestry, which she wrote was very meaningful to me. I mean, what Christians do we read about who don’t have significant suffering in their story? What Christian Have you ever met, who doesn’t have significant suffering, we are living in the fellowship of His sufferings. And I really appreciate what you just said. There comes a point in the foreword to the book of faithful men, 12, faithful men, I think we we reason this out it in two stages. First initial thought is, I don’t deserve this. And that’s true. When you get hammered for being faithful to Jesus, you really don’t deserve it. But you, the Lord is calling you to accept it deeply, deeply accept it. And eventually, you have a second thought, when you realize I’m actually following Jesus, this is ultimately from him. This is taking me to a deeper place with him than I’ve ever gone before. This has taken me to a deeper place with him that I’ve ever dreamed of going. And the second thought we have is, I really don’t deserve this. This is amazing. This is of grace.

Juan Sanchez
One, I would just recommend John Piper’s, the swan song series, you know, if someone is looking for a place to begin thinking about and there was one on the afflictions. And, you know, like, like, Ray said, it’s, you think of Spurgeon you think of person after person after person. And you see how God worked through them in their weakness. And it’s, it’s encouraging to see.

Collin Hansen
Yeah, I think Piper serious was part of what inspired us with the 12 faithful men book that Ray wrote the foreword for which again, you can pick up today on the bookstore. Part of what we wanted to do with that book is just to help ministers of the gospel in whatever formal position, you have to realize that this is nothing strange. And just like you said, Ray, there isn’t a single historical figure that you can think of, who was powerful used by God in ways that continue to encourage you today, who did not endure tremendous difficulty. And the amazing thing about these 12 figures that we looked at is it was it was different. In every case, it might have been a health problem. It might have been opposition from others, it might have been depression, it might have been opposition from their own congregation, it might have been from unbelievers, it might have been from civil authorities. That’s Janani looms case from Uganda a march 20 century martyr or Wang Min Tao, the restoration after betrayal of his faith, the kind of father, the house churches in China, to Edwards, as I mentioned earlier, being fired there. It seems a little counterintuitive to be so encouraged by what others have endured. And yet, it seems to be what Paul is doing here to encourage Timothy, as Paul himself understood what Christ has gone, had gone through himself on our behalf there. So go ahead. Let

Kevin DeYoung
me just encourage people as I need this encouragement myself, it may not be gospel suffering, per se, but sometimes we hear suffering and even you know, I gave the illustration of Johnny some of us can hear that and then we think, I mean, I don’t know I don’t really have anything I don’t really in it’s fine to say yes, there’s lesser than and greater than, but let’s not shortchange ourselves of the grace that God has any causes the cast all our cares on Him that if you’re here, and you’re like, Well, nobody’s died recently and I don’t know how bad things. Look, you kids are sick. You’re not getting enough sleep. kids won’t exactly have kids. You know, in the bed all the time, your your you got grumpy elders, you haven’t seen the church grow in 10 years, there’s there’s innumerable ways. And God means for us to bring all of those burdens to them, not just the ones that might make it in missionary biographies.

Collin Hansen
Let’s, let’s talk about particularly the role of shame and betrayal. you’ve alluded to that a couple of different times there. I think this is one of the parts and ministry, you talk there, Kevin, about all the different forms of difficulties that we’ve faced that hinder us. But when I talk to veteran pastors, the incidents, they usually come back to our that, that case of division, that case of betrayal, that case of discipline, something like that. Second Timothy 416, to 17, we see the apostle say, At my first defense, no one came to stand by me, but all deserted me, may not be charged against them. But the Lord stood by me and strengthened me so that through me, the message might be fully proclaimed, and all the Gentiles might hear it. So I was rescued from the lion’s mouth. So I just wanted to know, hear from you guys, in those kind of especially those moments that make you perhaps tempt you to want to throw in the towel there of how the Lord met you in that place, and equipped you to be able to endure.

Juan Sanchez
So, like Kevin said, it’s innumerable kinds of things as a pastor that weigh on you. In our case, it was just a huge financial debt. And it just kind of weighed on me. And then you begin to doubt yourself, you begin to question yourself, and people begin to ask questions. But I think the greatest hurt is those that you most invested in, and then they appear to turn on you or, or you invest months or maybe years, and then they end up going to the church down the road, or whatever it might be, in the verse that you quoted, I think is so helpful, because Because Paul says, the fact that it my first offense, no one came to stand by me, you know, we’re all there at some point, perhaps tempted to wallow in self pity, but I don’t know that many of us get to, may not be charged against them. Yeah. And, and I know, this is not original to me, because it’s so good. But what I, what I remember is understanding the reality of we need thick skins and soft hearts. And it’s something that I have to preach to myself, often, you know, thick skin and soft heart, thick skin and soft heart. However, people respond to me, I need to have a soft heart to be able to respond to them. And, you know, ultimately, they’re not my sheep. They’re Christ’s sheep. And if I invest in them, and they go down the road, and they serve that church, then praise me to God.

Collin Hansen
Sometimes that can be especially hard for church planters. I mean, you’ve seen this from a variety, different perspectives, perspectives, right. But specifically when it comes to those challenges of shame and betrayal, which it seems I mean, you know, Paul boasts in all of these many physical hardships, but it seems that what got him much more were those who had betrayed him and abandon the faith.

Ray Ortlund
Betrayal and shame are we need to talk about those together more than we do. Those are very real and very significant,

Collin Hansen
and and again, grouped by Paul. That’s why I brought them together. They’re grouped together by him, he has

Ray Ortlund
to be misrepresented and Miss characterized for a narrative to be developed about you. That is not true, and not fair. And from those whom you loved, is so bewildering, even shocking. And this passage that you refer to Colin is really striking and relevant. Alexander the Coppersmith did me great harm. He didn’t just hurt Paul’s feelings. He harmed him, yes. The Lord will repay him according to his deeds. Colin. I’ve never seen someone come out against and harm a faithful minister of the gospel, and then go on and live a life I would want to live. The Lord deals with that. And then so here’s a strong enemy, a strong adversary and then he was faced with weak friends. At my first defense, no one came to stand by me but all deserted me. So he everything was on the line there he was standing up For Caesar on a certain day, and on that particular day, all of his friends who he thought would be there, they just found that other things they had to do that day As had happened with Jesus. Yeah. their to do list was so full. Paul, we love you. We’re all for you. I really wish I could be there. I’ll send a text, whatever. And the Lord says, may not be charged against them. strong enemy, the Lord will deal with him. Weak friends, may the Lord be merciful to them, and then a strong friend. But the Lord stood by me and strengthened me. I love that there’s, there’s Caesar on his throne, 15 feet away, maybe with, you know, officials and courtiers here and so forth. And here’s the Apostle Paul standing there, in His presence. He’s in chains, he has to give an account of himself to the Caesar. And suddenly he realizes he feels this invisible arm coming around his shoulders, he realized he’s not standing alone. The Lord stood by me, like he may have been thinking, To my immediate right at this moment, someone is here. And he feels this affirmation, this presence, this strength, his soul becomes suddenly aware, hey, you’re doing really well. You go boy. The Lord stood by me and strengthened me. The Lord wasn’t too busy that day.

Juan Sanchez
Can I ask requests? Yeah. So you’re in the midst of this battle? Betrayal, shame, misrepresentation. And I think that temptation for a young guy is to defend himself. And so you know, one of the lessons I learned in that situation was the Lord is my defender. Maybe I was right, maybe I was, you know, wrong. But But I think in trusting ourselves to the just judge is helpful, but how would you counsel younger guys, they find themselves in that place. And the temptation is to fight back to make their case.

Ray Ortlund
Well, there are a lot of related issues like, Is this happening actually, among the session? Is this happening within a body that’s legitimately formally constituted as authoritative within the church? Is there a forum that’s established as biblical that is perceived by everyone involved as authoritative, where things can be adjudicated where the leaders can get to the bottom of it and find out what’s going on? So if that’s the case, then you not only can but you must give an account to your brothers. And, and they owe it to you to ask you help us understand what is going on. So they they better ask that question. And you better give an honest answer. And that isn’t self defense. But when in less formal situations when, when you’re just being humiliated. I think that’s when we keep our mouths shut and we let the Lord defend us. And he will stand by us and strengthen us. The Lord has a he is so faithful to straighten things out. If we’ll give him time where usually five minutes we panic and and give in to our own impatience. Five minutes before the Lord was going to step in. We just need to wait longer.

Kevin DeYoung
And I’m often struck by how much less concerned Jesus seems with being misunderstood than I am. Hate to be misunderstood. You know, it’s one thing you do mess up and you see it, but people either ignorantly or willfully misunderstand you. It can be at a distance, internet, social media, it can be people close to you. But Jesus, I mean, he tells parables to sometimes he says to keep people in the dark. Yeah. And from Isaiah, you know, when you were when you were talking about it, just thinking of Peter says, And Jesus when reviled did not return did not revile in return. How did he do that? Because he entrusted himself to the one who judges justly. We just have to be okay. All the things you said about defending yourself those proper moments is true, but we just have to be okay. That some people are going to get to the end of their life. And some people are going to be there in heaven. And they have totally misread you. They they misjudged you. And then they maybe had a reason to maybe they didn’t. And if you make it your life goal, then you will not be misunderstood if it’s the last thing you do. We all have seen people like that. We get emails from them often. And whose life goal is to make sure that my name is defended above all else for that person’s name is besmirched no matter what. It is a cancer, it is enthralled to bitterness for yourself or for others, and we have to allow that some people will, will get to the end of their days, and even now they’re thinking, you know, you know what the problem is that Kevin do. And some of them will be right and some of them will be wrong. And there’s such a temptation in ministry, to then become jaded and cynical. And I don’t I think this was from the Lord. But I just I decided early in ministry, or the Lord decided for me. I was much rather go through life being a little bit naive than a lot bit cynical, and rather get to the end of my life and somehow find out, wow, those people had it out for you the whole time. Didn’t even know I thought they liked me. Let’s assume unless you tell me otherwise, you’re like me, then to go through that I better not have that constant squinty eye of suspicion, it’s not a way to live.

Collin Hansen
Let me ask one that is, it’s close to home. And it’s one that I hear about often. What if those people who miss judge you getting into life are counted among your own household? What if it’s your own kids, or some of your own kids? And this is something that you hear a lot about, from pastors, it wears on your endurance?

Kevin DeYoung
Yeah, and I’m not at that age yet. But you and I both know, that they’re the most exquisite pain, I’ve heard detailed are those stories, you want to get anyone on your church, on their knees, or in their tears in a heartbeat. Ask them about all their kids and grandkids because almost everybody’s got something somebody wayward somebody. And then then it’s compounded if it’s not just wayward, but it is. And it’s, it’s your fault, dad. It’s a burden. None of us want to bear and by ourselves, none of us can bear.

Collin Hansen
It’s interesting to me that as I’ve talked with pastors about how this weighs on them, it tends to talk with Tim Keller about this, everybody wants him to write a parenting book, everybody looks at his children, and says, look at how they turned out. They’re all in your church. They’re serving faithfully, have wonderful families. And he says, I know so many other parents, who I worked closely with, whose children are not doing that, who were much better, being honest, much better parents than I was. I don’t know how to write a parenting book in that atmosphere there. Because there are things that we know to do and things that we know not to do. And yet none of it necessarily guarantees that outcome. And yet the Lord remains faithful.

Kevin DeYoung
Just like Colin I tweeted out a few weeks ago that when I write my parenting book, it’s going to be entitled gospel centered.

subtitled, The inmates are running the asylum.

Collin Hansen
I want to probably the last part that we looking at here and maybe one of the more lively Okay, so I’m wondering if we actually realize this passages in the Bible. Like it’s an actual thing that God inspired by His Apostle, Second Timothy 224 2526. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome, but kind to everyone able to teach patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. I mean, I can’t think of I think technology gives us many more opportunities now to be ensnared, and ignorant controversies that breed quarrels. So what might it look like for us to be able to take this passage seriously, as one of those character requirements of a minister of the gospel?

Ray Ortlund
By the way, the mute function on Twitter it’s just really great to learn how helpful that is, there are some conversations I don’t want to even be aware of. They do not edify me at all I’m looking at, it seems to me that the non touchy gentleness of the servant of the Lord is related to the possibility of people coming to their senses and escaping spirit traveling. Yeah, they’re not going to get hammered into freedom or argued into seeing things in a new way. Who does respond well to that, but they might respond to gentleness. I read my son’s my son Danes wonderful book, Jonathan Edwards on the Christian life, and I was really struck. I’ve never been opposed to gentleness, but it wasn’t as big on my radar. As after I read that book, because, as Dane read the Edwards corpus, he was forced by the evidences to devote an entire chapter in Jonathan Edwards on the Christian life, an entire chapter to the one topic of gentleness. It dove like lamb like spirit. The longer I live, the more I respect and value, gentleness, and the less I respect, swagger, and beating people up. beating people up, embarrassing them, humiliating them. holding them up to public scorn does not help anyone. First Corinthians 14 says, Let all things be done for edification, everything coming out of our mouths and in our ministry should be constructive. All things, gentleness is wonderfully constructive.

Kevin DeYoung
I just preached on this passage over the weekend, I won’t give you that sermon, but I’ll just retell one line from Spurgeon, which is always stuck with me and is even more apropos in our social media. He says, If you should be drawn into controversy, be sure to use very hard arguments and very soft words. What is so much of the internet, if not the opposite of that, very soft arguments, and very hard words.

Juan Sanchez
I just want to highlight what what Ray was getting at. These are the folks that God may grant repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth. And yet Paul tells Timothy to deal very differently with the folks in chapter three, who are always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. So that’s an important distinction. However, to raise point, that doesn’t mean that we’re gentle with the former, and not with a ladder. I’m always impressed with the fact that even in Matthew 1815, through 20, the those who sin against us, I’m always impressed by the fact that Jesus wants to maintain the dignity of the unrepentant sinner, and to involve as few people as possible, and only add people as necessary that they may come to repentance. And when they don’t come to repentance, then you involve the whole church, and then you exclude them and deliver them over to Satan. But but it has nothing to do with tone or, or lack of gentleness. It’s just the idea. Some people may repent may be granted repentance, and others are always learning never able to come to a knowledge of the

Collin Hansen
truth. I’m so glad. Right, as you mentioned Edwards in there, and one of the things I’ll talk about in my workshop tomorrow, is it’s hard for me to imagine that many people would regard Edwards to be gentle. I mean, I mean, in terms of how we perceive gentleness, to be, from a worldly perspective, a different matter from a godly perspective. One of the things that strikes me about his biography is that he’s, he’s fired from his congregation for standing on principle, a principle that we could debate today, but I’ll just say for the sake of argument, I think that he was right on a principle that in which he was going against his grandfather’s policy, they’re a difficult environment. His grandfather was pastor of that church for like, 60 years. I can’t remember what it was before him. And, and one of the dynamic elements there is he preaches a Farewell Sermon, it’s one of the one of his most famous and his firm does not back down. To me, it’s it’s very Christ, like it’s very Pauline, because Paul’s not going to ever be considered. I mean, we talked about him earlier as kind of a bulldozer type in some ways. There, Edwards’s firm, he doesn’t back off there. The thing that’s so fascinating there is that they don’t have a replacement for him set up. There’s nobody to come in to take over a small town in western Massachusetts. So what does he do? Stay and continues to serve them after his last time there. It’s amazing. And so you don’t think from a worldly perspective that this man famous for some of the hardest words, ever spoke as we think of in our American canon of literature, and yet truly was characterized by a Christ like gentleness there, in his congregation, I think that helps to illumine what we see here from the ministry of Christ, not a man who minced words are compromised, of course, and his perfection is God. godhood. But then also likewise with with Paul, somebody who spoke appropriately difficult words, that we know very much so and I have to think about that a lot. I mean, I’m working on a book review right now published at the gospel coalition, that’s going to be extremely critical. And I think it’s absolutely warranted because it gets at the very heart of the, of the identity and the character of God. And we must deal with it according to the nature of this of this threat. And yet, at the same time,

Kevin DeYoung
your book on the things you were doing,

Collin Hansen
I think, you’ll you’ll be seeing, you’ll be seeing it soon,

Kevin DeYoung
it will be gentle.

Collin Hansen
But there is a way to do it in a way that is not necessarily understood by the world, but is in keeping with these passages there. And I’m just reminded of how we have no been repeating this wherever I’ve gone recently, but talk is so cheap. Now, in this era, it’s so incredibly cheap, and yet still a word spoken fitly for that season, because it is season with the grace. And the gentleness that we see here is so powerful used by God and I think perhaps more able than ever before, because of the abundance of words and those soft arguments and those hard words, to be able to cut through and to show a different way, even if it seems to be such in contrast with the way other Christians are behaving and including with how other Christians are behaving toward us. In response to them. I had a friend of mine recently talked to me about a difficult situation in ministry. I think it’s even with those people that we know and love and have worked closely with for a long time, it can be very difficult. But he just counseled me to not defend myself to be willing to admit and to confess my own sin, and to leave that to the Lord. And he was like, you’ll you’ll see how this works. It’ll be totally counterintuitive, and it’s going to defuse the situation. And as I engaged in that the the situation escalated for a time, but then totally changed. And it was just it was a powerful antidote. I felt like too. I mean, I’m somebody who wants to use my words, and I want to defend myself. And that’s potentially disqualifying for ministry, I think according to Paul here if we take that seriously, and I believe we must.