Why We Need to Debate in Good Faith

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Collin Hansen
Are you feeling pressure to understand and engage with an ever growing array of confusing and polarizing issues? I mean, perhaps you’ve you’ve witnessed bitter arguments tearing apart your family, your friends, and even your church? Well, you’re not alone, I definitely feel it to every week. In fact, I hear from confused and concerned Christians, they want less heat, they want more light, they want to stay focused on the gospel of Jesus Christ, they want to put their faith into action. They want to care about what’s happening in the world, but they don’t know who to trust. Well, the Gospel coalition serves the church by producing timely content that grapples with some of the most pressing issues of our day.

Collin Hansen
And I’m praying that one of our newest and most exciting initiatives, the good faith debates will do just that. We’re releasing a five part video debate series featuring prominent Christian thinkers discussing some of the most divisive issues facing the church today, ranging from gun control to woke churches to abortion to racial injustice to evangelical self identity. When we keep the gospel Central, we can disagree on lesser but still important matters in good faith in the good faith debates. And we hope to model this showing that it’s possible for two Christians united around the gospel to engage in charitable conversation, even if they don’t agree with each other. In fact, I think it’s even necessary to ensure that we’re truly united around Jesus, and not around a cultural or political agenda.

Collin Hansen
Well, the moderator of these debates is my friend Jim Davis, teaching pastor in Orlando Grace Church and host of the as in Heaven podcast. He has a brave and wise soul. As you’ll see in these videos, he joins me on gospel bound to discuss what surprised him moderating these debates, what helped him as a pastor, and whether he changed his mind on anything, among other issues. Jim, thanks for joining me on the guest side of things. Hey, thanks for having me here. Man. It was really fun to moderate those debates. Jim, why would you do something so foolish as to accept my invitation to moderate these debates? Well, part of me was happy to be the moderator and not the experts. It’s true in some ways, I got to stay neutral. You know, in my context, you and I know a lot of pastors, and they’re, pretty much every pastor I know, has tensions in their church to varying degrees, from politics, racial tensions, COVID. And it just has made me there’s a lot of sadness in me.

Jim Davis
Particularly what I’ve, what I’ve experienced personally, whether it’s in my church, or other pastors, or people in Orlando, even, you know, close friends and family members, where you have these disagreements in these areas, and, and you end up losing relationship over things that really are secondary, or even tertiary things. So for me the opportunity to be a part of hopefully, and I’ve seen the debates I can say they did modeling charitable disagreement. For me, I really wanted to be a part of that. I don’t want to be a part of just arguing and making secondary tertiary things, the most important things and dividing relationships relationally over them. So for me, I really did want to be a part of it. And I’m really excited about about how it came came out, Jen, this question is, I think, fairly personal and maybe even kind of sensitive, but you’ve experienced division in your church, I think anybody can relate to some of the things that you’ve seen some of the things that you’ve heard in your church.

Collin Hansen
I know a lot of people and pastors and fairly sensitive souls, I think in many cases, they want to know they’re doing the right thing. How do you know that it made these divisions, you’re doing the right thing, and you’re not the one causing the problems?

Jim Davis
Well, you know, I’ve literally had times and 2021. And I can remember being the shower and praying, God, if you want me to do something else, like if there was, it was a really good job that came about and I didn’t have to uproot my family, like I consider it. It was so hard. And now I’m not in that place at all. I’m loving my job. But it is for me, I go back and I keep questioning my own motives. What am I trying to do here? Am I trying to win? Am I trying just to convince people? Or, or am I really trying to shepherd people, to the most important thing, which is Jesus and when we have this, in the words of Jesus to the efficient church and revelation to when we have this first love, I believe chariot ability will reign in the secondary and tertiary things.

Collin Hansen
Now, in those divisions that you’re seeing there, do you do you notice any common denominators, you’re like, ah, when I hear this, I kind of know what’s coming next.

Jim Davis
You know that are some, sometimes I’ll see more fire than wood. And I can just okay, there’s, there’s more going on here and I want to understand that I see, I see real fear about where our country’s going. And I, I, I’m not saying I’m thrilled about the direction of the country, but I hope to help remind people that our citizenship is in heaven. And that citizenship cannot be taken away from us, and that kingdom is not going to fail. And so common denominator, there would be fear. And I think there’s some of them is their legitimate concerns about where our kids are going to grow up in our grandkids.

Jim Davis
And so I really want to affirm those concerns, but my hope is to put them in perspective, so that we can all celebrate the shore hope we have in Jesus Christ, and that we can disagree on, as we’ll talk about here with with the debate, some applications of wisdom, I want to Alright, so I’m, I get I’m not used to being the guest, I’m used to being the host. So I’m gonna, I’m gonna host gospel bound for a second, I want to ask you the same question, what common denominators do you see, because you have a very unique, I have a local view, you have a 30,000 foot view.

Collin Hansen
So one of the major reasons that we did these debates, and the ways that we did them is because YouTube is usually the common denominator that I hear. Usually, it’s, I was watching this video on YouTube. And then another interesting video popped up when that one was done. And then I kept watching, and I learned a lot of things from there. And so I would say that that’s, that was that’s probably the number one thing that I see is somebody who is particularly drawn to the voices on YouTube, that have perfected the art of divisive manipulation and simple lies. The difficulty is that, you know, I had a situation in my church, where was it was a dynamic along these lines.

Collin Hansen
And I was trying to think that I’m used to working with a lot of people who, well, that isn’t, that doesn’t sound right. I’m used to situations dealing with people who lie for a living, it’s kind of their their Christian ministry is to lie, the problem. And I think most of them know that that’s what they’re doing. I did a preach to chapel at Cedarville, a few years ago, and this was kind of my theme was if you’re lying for the sake of Christ, something’s wrong. The problem is, a lot of people don’t know that they’re lying. They don’t know the backstories. They don’t know the individuals, they don’t just don’t know the truth. And so that my hope was, maybe we can, maybe we help game the algorithm, not by just sort of saying, here’s the gospel coalition view on everything, because there isn’t one we’re a coalition, by definition, but to be able to help show that there are a lot of complicated issues out there that Christians disagree on.

Collin Hansen
And uncertain issues like the ones that we’ve featured here on these debates. There’s not the only Christian way to think about something. And so oddly enough, I don’t really see anybody out there gym recording videos on YouTube, about like Trinitarian, heresies except, you know, maybe some Lutheran satire folks from years ago, but I don’t see a lot of people doing videos about that. I see people doing a lot of videos about political and social issues that are well downstream from from gospel principles. Now, they may be important. They may be connected in vital ways. But I say all the time, what, you know, what do we do on on gun control here? Well, try this to see if the members of your congregation have stronger views about Arianism. Or about gun control. Just see, mountain of money. And I don’t know any pastors who would be I mean, we have some prominent people now who, who teach sub, I mean, sub Trinitarian false beliefs, I think. And yet they’re still seen as trusted voices because they’re on the right side of a social or political issue. That’s a problem but but it’s because I can’t turn on any cable news channel and have a discussion about the implications of of the you know, of the Nicene Creed. But I can turn on anything I want and see somebody talking about guns. That answer your question?

Jim Davis
I think that yeah, it does. I think it’s well said we have a little background. You know this story, but our podcast was just for our local church. are, you know, we weren’t having church this is as in Heaven, we’re we’re not have community group we don’t. I felt helpless to shepherd really the church. So we had this podcast, nobody was doing anything. So people like you who would have normally been very busy doing other things are available to come on my local church podcast. And it really was just for the local church until the gospel coalition acquired it, which was not our plan. We’re very thankful for that. But then you have these these people online who began to attack TGC in the podcast, and what I am affirming your point here, but I would, there was articles that would frequently be texted to me by geeks if you’re not watching, see my air quotes Christian journalists, and I would have to tell people, This is not journalism, nor is it Christian. And I won’t say who they are, because I don’t want to give them any more visibility than they have. But it was the algorithms producing this stuff.

Collin Hansen
Well, I mean, we’re kind of what we’re hoping that will happen here is that you watch the videos, because you’re interested in the topics, you would want to have a well informed view on them. You want to hear not a cable news, five minute manufactured debate. But I mean, correct me if I’m wrong, I think we gave 35 minutes we get the presentations are both shorter, but then 35 minutes of discussion that you moderate in there. So I mean, I think I think venues like YouTube are extremely helpful to be able to do this kind of stuff and, and get around all of the stuff that we see on on cable news and things like that, or other forms of social media that are more truncated. So I’m, I’m hopeful about this, but I’m hoping that people do stumble across these videos because of their divisive nature and, and it has the effect of bringing them back to a passion about the gospel. And so that’s really my next question is, I don’t think, Jim, it’s going to be logical to people to think they’re debating about gun control. Therefore, we should be more focused on the gospel. I think that requires some explanation. You give it a stab of explaining why we did it that way. Yeah, what

Jim Davis
I appreciate there were no primary or essential doctrine, issues being debated. They were all what we would call the application of wisdom. And so the gospel in the Bible that I mean, there’s a lot on the Bible about wisdom, the Gospel informs wisdom. And so what we’re doing here isn’t getting away from the gospel, to talk about something else. We are taking different applications of gospel wisdom to these issues. And I thought the guests that I mean, you and I guess Brett McCracken, were the the people most that I saw dealing most with choosing the guests and that, and I thought they did a great job of it. It was why getting off your question, but I, I was really pleased with how that happened.

Collin Hansen
Yeah. Well, I mean, it’s not an easy thing. If you don’t think it’s intuitive for people. They’re thinking, Oh, the Gospel coalition is talking about woke church, why don’t you just preach the gospel? When the reality is, I’ve simply never seen somebody say, just preach the gospel, who one actually only preaches the gospel themselves. Otherwise, they wouldn’t be telling me to preach the gospel, because that’s not preaching the gospel in and of itself. But second, it’s, it’s not helpful. I’ve been telling church leader groups for quite a while now that your church doesn’t need less politics, it actually needs more. That’s counterintuitive. But what I don’t mean is they need more partisanship. They don’t need more partisanship.

Collin Hansen
But that’s all that we actually think politics is about is partisanship. Just check your, your your reporters online and see they think politics is who’s up who’s down who’s who’s left, who’s right, who’s got money, who’s who, in the polls. There’s not a lot of debate about actual substance, substantive issues out there. And so ironically, by actually talking about these issues, and bringing them into your church, you’re able to lower the heat on them out of a partisan atmosphere. equip people with gut with gospel wisdom, as you said, right, their biblical wisdom, help them connect there. And in doing so, it actually maintains and builds your unity in the church. People think that you have more unity in a church, if everybody’s agreed on every issue.

Jim Davis
Unity is not conformity.

Collin Hansen
Yeah. It’s not conformity. And also it usually means if that’s if that’s what you’re aiming for in the church, it usually means that your group is committed to a certain cultural political agenda. That includes Jesus at some point. Maybe it’s at the top, maybe it’s in the middle, maybe he’s at the bottom, but it’s really kind of a cultural political agenda. under there to have a church where people can disagree about certain wisdom issues is actually a church that is focused on the gospel. And that uniting people and not on all that other agenda. Now let’s talk about some of the debates in particular, Jim, which debate worried you the most during preparation? And why?

Jim Davis
Well, there are different kinds of worry. I had multiple worries. So I was the two really hot button issues. You have the woke church debate and the racial justice debate, I wanted to give a lot of care in the way that I prepared my questions. So there was there was some worry there just because of how heated those conversations have been all around the nation. I was a little worried that on the the term, Evan Jellicle, having a seminary professor and a sociologist argue each other, I was worried they were going to argue past each other. That didn’t end up happening. And then I’m, you know, I’m just course there’s always some insecurity and worry that I’m not going to do a good job in what I’ve been asked to do. But those would have been but worry about the specific debates, those have been the top ones.

Collin Hansen
Yeah, well, I mean, what about you, you find it you pick these people, and I find in my job, that it’s kind of a kind of a high wire act. Usually things come together late and things kind of just, I don’t know, I find you trust God, you try not to hold to too tightly under the details, trust him to be able to lead in some surprising ways. And you’ll be more happy with the result. And so that was hopeful about all of them. But I was I guess I was just more worried about the entire thing, because we’ve never done anything like it before. In fact, I don’t really see anybody else trying to do this. And so I’m just I was just grateful for how it turned out. It was, I wouldn’t say I was anxious or worried about it. I just, I was just sort of thankful. In the end there. And because I’m wondering, Jim, how did how did you prepare for covering so much ground in these debates? Because how do you how do you keep up with contemporary issues as a busy pastor?

Unknown Speaker
Well, I mean, many of these contemporary issues are issues that people inside our church are wanting to talk about. So so it’s not, to me, it doesn’t feel like something that I, I leave my pastor job to go and do this. This is this is a part of pastoring is talking with people about these issues, the application of wisdom, getting to the heart of preparation, I mean, you know, you know, the, I did have these debates about 10 days ahead, and I want to give a shout out I have a an intern at our church, Evan McCarthy, who is a very valuable research assistant to the in this regard. And so my, my, in my preparation, I mean, I took what we’re doing in the church, and it didn’t require a lot of research. I mean, you and I have talked about these things a number of times. So these are kinds of things I think most pastors are engaging in regularly.

Jim Davis
And so to have the opportunity to come in and help create an environment where people can disagree on very important issues, but still clearly hold the gospel of Jesus Christ as the most important thing. And let me also say, from your perspective, your nervousness of or anxiety or whatever you want to call it, this was a big production like this is that that was I didn’t have to bear the burden of the production. But we were in the Museum of the Bible. We that means you have an outstanding production team with Seth and Steven and Josh and all the other people. I mean, there were I mean, it was, yeah, there was a live audience. And of course, the primary audience is not live there. But you just they were, I just get to step in, but a lot of people were working to pull this off.

Collin Hansen
Yeah, absolutely. Josh Diaz. Steven Morales Seth Magnuson Dan Drennen. really grateful for all those guys and their work.

Jim Davis
It’s an all-star crew.

Collin Hansen
Yeah, when I appreciate so much how, I mean, the video presentations give people a little bit of a sense of of the behind the scenes dynamic in there. But it was just it was yeah, it was a lot of fun for me to not have to worry about that part of it, and just entrust it to those guys there. How would you say you’re listening to this podcast? You’re wondering about these things coming out? How would you see these debates helping you as a pastor, because, again, I’m imagining most people will think, oh, man, I have too much of this kind of debate in my church. I want to stay away from it. I just want to I just want to focus on some, some nice biblical things to not not ruffle any feathers. Why would this actually be beneficial for a church leader bring in I mean, just think talking as a pastor.

Jim Davis
I mean, I would love for people in our church. To watch these debates, and it’s it’s the tone, you know, it’s these people were clearly passionate about what they’re arguing. I mean, there’s there’s no lack of passion. But there is this gospel supremacy that models, a models. Okay, this is this is what it should look like. And I don’t think any of the people who debated would not, I don’t I don’t want to speak for them. But I didn’t get the sense that they would split fellowship in a church over these issues. I think they modeled the charity ability. And I, you know, I’ve toyed around, I don’t want to commit myself to anything. But I’ve toyed around with having something in our church where we watch it and have a discussion group and, and I think these debates, they set the tone, which is so important to be able to disagree strongly, and love each other in the midst of that disagreement.

Collin Hansen
When I’m sure you’ve seen the same things that I’ve seen, Jim, and I’m sure there’ll be somebody, somebody’s skeptical, listening to this right now even trying to maybe parse out some things to, to to embarrass and whatnot. But you hear a lot of people talking about tone police complaining about tone, that’s kind of an elite thing. Let me explain what I think I think I mean, I think what you mean about that, as well. We deliberately chose people who knew what they were talking about, committed to the gospel, and committed to building up the church. Unfortunately, there are a lot of voices from multiple perspectives, who do not have a commitment to the Gospel, who do not have a commitment to building up and have every incentive, to divide, to slander, and to destroy. That is how they make money.

Collin Hansen
That is how they become that is how they grow their profile. That is how they grow their platform. And we deliberately did not include people who grow their platform, their fame, their fortune, by lying about other Christians, and about trying to deceive. I mean, that’s just that was that was a non negotiable for us. And that’s what it means to be a part of something called the gospel coalition is that we don’t expect everybody to agree on things. And when Don Carson are co founders with Tim Keller hired me. He said, Colin, never, ever, ever violate anything in our foundation documents never go against anything there. In fact, it’s a fireable offense.

Collin Hansen
But beyond that, have at it. And I appreciate that, as always been Dr. Carson’s attitude about things. It’s always been, I’ll never forget it the 2009 national conference for TGC I was going through the bookstore, and I saw NT Wright’s book on justification for sale, I’m sure remember those days, Jim, when that was the hottest debate anywhere. And I said to Dr. Carson, I saw NT Wright’s book on justification. He said, Let them read and argue. Maybe it’s the academic in him, maybe it’s just sort of the the Cambridge Dawn perspective or something. But it’s an it’s an attitude that I can say just allowed somebody in my position to flourish in those ways over the years. And I’m really grateful for that.

Unknown Speaker
Well, I just I just want to say also what I appreciate about the kinds of people that you picked, and I would even put you in this category. Typically, you’re not going to be a New York Times best seller, if you don’t do what you’re talking about, if you don’t practice something that’s going to get you to the extremes. And there’s just a humility about that kind of person that’s more committed to the gospel of Jesus Christ than they are making money and fame for themselves.

Collin Hansen
Yeah. Well, and I want to want to say also, here’s another opportunity to clarify something that I see a lot of confusion about, and even a lot of anger toward TGC and toward our leaders about I think there’s an attitude of, okay, so this is more of TGC trying to promote moderation. Don’t you understand? This is a time for vigilance and a time for war, and a time for division, if necessary to be able to guard against those wolves that have stolen in among the sheep. Okay. Look, this is not about lacking conviction. This is not about picking the mean between two extremes. This is about keeping what Don Carson always said, being prophetic from the center, being focused on the gospel, which puts everything else into perspective.

Collin Hansen
And also it is a recognition and this is a deeply ingrained in my journalistic training is a sense of suspicion of people who have something to gain by lying and dividing. I’ve already said this, when you’re trained, journalistically, and you’re accustomed to dealing with people like politicians, you have to understand a politicians job is not necessarily to tell you the truth, it is to get reelected. And to get reelected, there are any number of convenient or outright or blatant lies that most politicians are very happy to perpetuate. Unfortunately, that dynamic comes into the church as well. And so it’s not necessary. It’s not just that or necessarily that somebody makes the New York Times list by being an extremist is that somebody makes a best seller list sometimes by selectively painting opponents in the worst possible way. And stringing things together in a way that will garner maximum attention and develop the most sort of even a vitriolic response.

Collin Hansen
I go back to my my early days at at TGC. And one of the things that we saw develop is that publishers began to generate a Rob Bell marketing campaign approach, which was, if we can just get all the reformed Theo bros really angry about the offensive things that we publish as a Christian publisher will make millions. And not every Christian publisher does that. And it doesn’t happen all the time. But it’s amazing how often a Christian publisher will send me a book, knowing that I will think that it’s unbiblical in the hopes that I will talk about it, so that they will get attention so that they can sell more books. That’s what I mean, there are just some really perverse incentives in a media culture. And I think it’s important to say that, obviously, Jim, you and I want these debates to be seen.

Collin Hansen
We want people to use them, we want them to serve people, I don’t think I can claim as the Vice President and editor in chief, the Gospel coalition that I that I don’t think about these things. Of course I do. But I can say, knowing you, and and all the conversations we’ve had what we care about as the church, and what we see as our responsibility is to build up the church. And is it anything we would do to try to undermine that? Because that’s the calling that we’ve been given in life. Here’s an interesting one, Jim, during the debates change your mind.

Unknown Speaker
I don’t think my mind was changed. But I definitely there were certain debates where I was like, I haven’t thought about that part of it. And that was really good. And in some places, I walked away feeling like, even though I had the same opinion, I’m, I’m a little more sympathetic to the opposing view. And per what you’re saying what you were you were just saying the beginning of that statement? I don’t think anybody who watches these is going to think that any of these people, you know, that they watered anything down or that they know, compromised in any way. I mean, these were very passionate debates. Yes. They were firm in their, in their positions. What about you?

Collin Hansen
I would say yes. Now one of the debates, I think that had the most overlap was with Scott clusen. Dorf, and Karen Pryor, I would say that my natural inclinations are toward Karen side of things politically. But I would say that in Scotts presentation, the way he describes the dynamic of sort of integrity and credibility of the pro life position, depending on whether we are pro life and a wide range of issues or only abortion, I thought it was helpful when he when he said, if you did everything, right, if you supported every social program, every social safety net, Christians were the most supportive people and everybody knew that have mothers in trouble have babies who cannot be supported? Do you think that these pro choice advocates would change their mind? I said he had think you’re right, Scott, I don’t think.

Collin Hansen
So I think there’s a sense in which we do these things, because they’re the right thing to do, insofar as God calls us to doing them to supporting these women and these children and holding fathers accountable and on and on and on. And but we don’t do it because it’s a political strategy. Because I think there’s a there are some satanic strongholds there that are not going to recognize integrity, even if they saw more of that. And also and the fact is, there are so many pro life heroes out there who’ve been doing for decades, the exact things that pro choice advocates say that they’re not doing and it’s not like it changes the narrative on their side. So We do it to help those women.

Jim Davis
Yeah, I walked away from that debate really having an renewed appreciation for the people who in terms of the organization of the pro life movement, a deeper desire for them to want to have a very specific focus for what they’re trying to accomplish. And and still, at that Karen did a really good job of stating her. Actually, I’ll say that this was the one debate where I started hyperventilating as a moderator, because they agreed so much I most important parts of it, but we ended up going to politics and found some some disagreement in terms of what we do with our vote on abortion. But and Karen had a really interesting argument for why Christians are inconsistent when we argue for allow abortion in the case of rape that I thought was really an interesting argument that is not normally made.

Collin Hansen
Yeah, no, that’s what which there’s, I mean, there’s absolutely a situation there where, politically speaking, it’s more expedient to compromise in ways that actually undermine the entire integrity of our position in those cases, and so everybody is tempted to essentially say, Well, let’s try to get as much as we can, because that’s just politics. But in ways that yeah, it turned out to be kind of inconsistent. So yeah, that’ll be an interesting one for people to watch. And like you said, there’s a lot of agreement there more so than the other ones, I would say. But still, that was the one that stood stood out to me when I was preparing ahead of time. I thought, hmm, I’m surprised I’ve spent decades working on this sort of stuff, and haven’t quite thought of it that way. Now, Jim, this is a fun question. Which of these debaters would you least want to face?

Jim Davis
Oh, that’s an easy answer. Rebecca McLaughlin. She walked in. So you the viewers can see on the no question. I mean, she, there’s a there’s a table and they would debate from this table. And the notes would go on the table and look at the camera. And you have pastors law, your seminary professor, sociologist, people who speak in her own podcasts are living all using their notes, all of them. They’re all using their notes. And then she comes in and her British accent and says, I don’t need the table. And I’ve got her debate in my hand, and she passionately without missing a beat delivers everything from her heart and her mind and not needing a single note. And then she brings her own life experience into it. I’ve never, I hope I quote her accurately. But there was a moment when she said, and this was on the woke church thing. If there was anybody who would want to find same sex marriage in the Bible, it’s me, because I’ve been attracted to women, my whole of my adult life. And I mean, it was already a quiet room, but I felt like you could hear a pin drop. And so it she just like nothing against her opponent or anybody. Like she was just clearly excellent at what she does. What about you? Yeah,

Collin Hansen
I Well, I really, I thought everybody was more than capable. That’s not it’s not a question. And there’ll be some people that people don’t know, as well. A lot of people I think will probably be meeting Brian Davis for the first time there. But Brian has thought deeply as a church as a church leader, Philadelphia, Washington, DC for many years, about racial injustice, and the role of the church and the mission of the church, people will appreciate that. Sean DeMars, friend of mine here, but a lot of people will recognize Shawn from the from American gospel, the documentary, so people know Sean Moore, and John’s also published as well, but But I did think those guys were heroes for stepping up to the plate against Rebecca, and against Justin givony. So they’re just I mean, there’s a difference between me and

Jim Davis
Justin would be the number two that I wouldn’t know against.

Collin Hansen
Well, there’s a difference between me and Sean and Brian standing up there. And, you know, guys get paid to talk for a living, you know, that’s fine. And then there’s just a whole level of, Oh, you do this professionally. That was, that would be intimidating for me. So, yeah, my, you know, shout out to Sean O’Brien out there.

Jim Davis
I’ve been there a few times you now this is you’ve probably experiences from your podcasts and other things where you just, I’m so enthralled with what the person is saying. I just lose where I am. And, and that happened a few times. I mean, the people you you picked were very capable. Honestly, I wouldn’t want to go up against any of them. I like monitoring.

Collin Hansen
Yeah, that’s true. Well, last last question before the final three here, Jim. What do you think will surprise or encourage viewers?

Jim Davis
Well, we’ve covered some of it. It was it was some of it. You don’t Seeing the debate like so I got to see, it’s felt like most of these people, while they knew of each other, we’re meeting each other for the first time. And so it was really neat seeing them, even after the debates, exchanging phone numbers and tweeting the complimentary things about each other. You know, some of my surprises, you know, the debate that I was concerned about a sociologist and seminary professor, they actually they really did a great job of talking about the term evangelical. And it was just there was a sweet feel that even against, again, serious disagreements, very passionate, please. It was I was just reminded, oh, yeah, this can happen. This, this is what Christian should be like. What about you?

Collin Hansen
Well, another Well, another thing with I think maybe it’s this. I fully expect, Jim, especially with this topic, and or this, this approach and things like that, we’ll have some people watching and listening who are especially skeptical about TGC. And they’re looking to catch us in something that they think will be embarrassing. And, you know, I’m pretty good at being embarrassing. So that it, I think will be surprising for people is that they just may expect that what we’re trying to do, the Gospel coalition is trying to be moderate. Like I said earlier before, that we’re trying to just kind of coax everybody into getting along and downplaying their differences and whatnot. But let me say this, it takes a certain kind of person to want to stand up on a debate stage, at the Museum of the Bible in Washington, DC, have their beliefs scrutinized there, by a moderator by somebody who has been chosen to be on the other side, and to be willing to go up on YouTube permanently with that.

Collin Hansen
So you don’t get people to agree to do that. Who are who are not known for having some some sharp elbows of some some sharp tongue like that are willing to take some blows and willing to give some rhetorical blows back. These are people who care so much about their position, that they’re willing to enter into the arena that I think maybe will surprise people maybe maybe they don’t know how much behind the scenes. We disagree about stuff. We argue about stuff, we push each other on stuff. Because when you share a common confidence in Christ, and in his Gospel, you’re free to do that. I think some of the hardest words have been reserved for me by my closest friends in all of life, but including at work at TGC. But it’s exactly as the Proverbs tell us, or as the Bible tells us, like these are faithful wounds from friends. And so I think maybe that’ll surprise some of the skeptics listening here now, or watching here now, of just thinking, Oh, here we go. This is where TGC is gonna tell everybody to, you know, be all moderate. And all Tim Keller ask. And that’s not even what Tim is like Tim’s got. He’s got some strong views, anyway. Yeah. So I think people will be surprised people be surprised by that.

Unknown Speaker
Well, let me say, Colin, to support that. What What surprised me like what you’re saying is the way these people not only divided each other, but their flanks as well. So you have, you know, you just saw the person, let’s say there’s generally speaking, right, in the left, you know, the person on the right was not just arguing the left, they were arguing the hyper right, and the person on the left wasn’t just arguing the right but the hyper left, which shows this prophetic center voice or the moderate position you’re talking about?

Collin Hansen
Well, that was one of the distinctive distinctives of the gospel coalition that I think is going to come through for people is the notion of multi directional leadership, as as Trevin wax has written for us at TGC. So yeah, just I think in order to be faithful to the biblical examples that we’ve been given, we have to be able to recognize that dangers come to us from more than one direction. Again, I think you can see that in obviously, in Jesus’s ministry, obviously, in Paul’s ministry, all throughout the Scripture, all throughout what we’re commanded to look at, but the world tends to, in the short term, command and reward one directional leaders who demonize who antagonize other people, basically, demagogues, demagogues tend to flash brightly and quickly in this world but I don’t think they reap that lasting biblical fruit. I’m gonna go to the final three now with Jim Davis, my guest here. Gospel bound is the teaching pastor Orlando Grace Church, host of the as in Heaven podcast, which you can find to the gospel coalition. Check out those archives. Final three here, Jim, first, how do you find calm in the storm?

Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I mean, we’ve got pastor a church, I’ve got four kids, my wife is a full time counseling student at RTS. And, you know, I, my kids go into their sports games, throwing the baseball outside the rare time that I can go golfing ideally with them, or even just just go into the gym. I mean, and obviously reading the Bible praying, I feel like those are a given. But those are the other kinds of ways that I find calm in my life.

Collin Hansen
Once again, second, what do you find good news today?

Unknown Speaker
What am I reading? What am I finding good news? Man, that’s a great question. Not on Facebook. I actually have gone back and I’ve been reading Dune, the old 1960 Whatever novel I have to say I was I’m kind of a sci fi nerd and have heard about the book, watch the movie. The book has a lot more details and there’s just some some good news in that about that. There’s some even admits the war that is one of these classic, there is a chosen one. And there’s a Lord of the Rings type. Savior that it’s been it’s been kind of an escape, but I’ve enjoyed going back to something that’s just fiction. We’re reading a lot of about D churching. Is you know, living in a great D churching. Working on a book for that.

Collin Hansen
Well, you may have already covered this what’s the last great book you’ve read?

Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I’m almost done with it. Dune has been Dune is like Lord of the Rings in space and in the movie was great. The book is just so much better. And that’s that’s been a fun. That’s been a fun thing.

Collin Hansen
All right, you like a little bit of Elon Musk you like a little bit of JRR Tolkien you love dune. I love that no rings in space. So well. I appreciate getting my friend Jim Davis here teaching pastor Linda Grace Church, hosted as in Heaven podcast and moderator of the gospel coalition’s good faith debates. Check them out at the gospel coalition.org starting on May 4, so celebrate your Star Wars Holiday by watching the first of our good, good faith debates. Jim, thanks so much for joining me.

Jim Davis
Thank you, Colin.