The Triumph and Tragedies of the Black Church

Walter Strickland

And I think that the the parable that sort of Jonathan Edwards offers us is the cultural formation that is at play and that we have to be very aware of in our own spiritual formation. Because I think his father and his grandfather, who are also English Gentry slave owners and ministers, they didn’t give him the implication of the gospel in that specific area. There were other areas where he did wonderfully, beautifully, but I would say that there was just a lack of an awareness to apply that gospel that he knew so well into that area.

Collin Hansen

Even if you have studied American church history, you may not have progressed beyond the basics of understanding the black tradition. I teach about the civil rights movement to graduate students, but I’m always learning more about the churches and leaders who contributed to the most effective movement for social change in American history. Well, I got a big boost in a new book by Walter Strickland called Swing low, a history of black Christianity in the United States, Volume One, published by IVP academic. Strickland is a council member for the gospel coalition and associate professor of systematic and contextual Theology at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, whether you know a lot or a little, Strickland offers a fast, moving overview of black church history, with all its triumphs and tragedies. Strickland writes this quote, despite the justifiable departure of blacks from white churches and denominations, the burden of explaining the proliferation of racialized congregations in America remains a wound in the Christian conscience that is yet to be healed as most powerful organization in the African American community. The church frequently deployed its resources in the political realm to combat the oppression that typified the black experience. End quote, so you can see we got a lot to chew on there. Walter joins gospel bound now to discuss theological malformation, the hermeneutics of slavery, the problem of evil, whether Reformed theology is inherently racist and even more. Walter, thanks for joining me on Gospelbound.

Walter Strickland

It’s good to be here with you, Collin.

Collin Hansen

Now you reference early on in this book, Volume One of this, of this series, The invention of race and the process of racialization. I think it’s fair to say it’d be difficult to overstate the effects of this process on the church in the United States. But could you tell us more about the origins of race and how this term Black took on religious connotations?

Walter Strickland

Yeah. So if we if we look back to the beginnings of our country’s history, what we see is that there is a lot of there’s African Americans brought from the the continent of Africa. And then what what transpires there is that there has to be some sort of justification for people to be one person who owns another. And so what goes on there is that there is a a stigma that is tied to biology in the form of utilizing biological characteristics, like skin pigmentation as a means of separating those who should be owners and those who should be owned. And what we call that is that it’s giving meaning to biology, and then also cultural traits as well that God did not give to it and so, and that process is called racialization. So, by and by, you know, explaining it as to what God did, meaning that God did not give to it. It’s not the cue that God was intending to say, Okay, this pigmentation is the one who’s owned. This is the pigmentation of the owner. Really, God was just sort of expanding, you know, just really, just the beauty of his creative account that includes trees of all kinds and birds of all kinds, and people of various types, all sort of bound up together in this shared humanity. And so that that is, while it’s not the foremost issue in the book, it’s definitely an undercurrent of it, that that is the mean, is something that African American Christianity is responding to throughout its history. But in the book, what I often do is is try to convey the wonderful contributions of African Americans. You know, in light of that, sometimes they’re responding to racialization, but other times they’re just praising God for who he is and how he’s been faithful to

Collin Hansen

them. And one of the things I point out when I’m teaching this in in grad school to seminary students is the absurdity of the rules, and that’s especially true as you go on through American history into segregation, really, a number of Byzantine rules there. But one of the things I point out very simply is that if, if color is the standard by which you can enslave or oppress another group of people, then then my Norwegian ancestors should be able to enslave Italians. I mean, there’s just an utterly arbitrary distinction there. Let’s go a different direction here and talk. Go back to. Theology and look at the Great Awakening. You write this in the book. During the Great Awakenings, black converts received an overly spiritualized faith from evangelists now, while you carry on this point of theological malformation all the way to the present day as a legacy of evangelicalism. So what do you mean about this overly spiritualized faith.

Walter Strickland

Yeah, you know, if we’re looking at the Great Awakening, the broader context for the African American tradition is that that’s the moment when Africans in America begin to come to faith in Christ in large numbers. So many of those were slaves. Some were free or manumitted at that time, but the the question remained, okay, so, so what do we do with these African people of African descent who have become Christian, and how do we not lose the the economic system that has sort of undergirded the country, and that is to offer a faith that is Good for saving the soul, yet does not wet the whistle, so to speak, for freedom for the body. And so what happened was, is that there is a, you know, Christ died for sinners, of which you and I are one, and then that is the the real, the that’s the good, that’s that is good news. I would argue that the that the good news goes farther, in the sense of that, and also because of this, are already not yet tension. We ought to because of the of the of the kingdom that is sort of creeping in on the present. We ought to then live those Kingdom realities out as best as possible in the here and now. So the gospel is freeing us, yes, in our souls, which is what was given, but it also does a work with us, as we exist in society, as we interact with each other, and that’s where that that break was made. And so I’m not critiquing the the fact that there is a gospel that was given was one that was trying to ameliorate sin from people with the message Jesus Christ. That’s good and well, but I’m saying that there is a cauterization off of the implications of the gospel, and so that was sort of intentionally cut off so that slaves wouldn’t say, You know what this kingdom reality is, one that we should pursue now.

Collin Hansen

Yeah, I mean, the story of George Whitefield is one of the most difficult and painful to look at, and it it forces everybody to make a basic decision. You can conclude, well, George Whitefield was preaching a false gospel. That’s hard to say as an Evangelical, because it cuts you off from your history, you could say that he wasn’t a Christian at all, because obviously he couldn’t have held those beliefs about slavery and advocated for slavery and be a Christian. Maybe that’s true, but that would also eliminate a lot of other people in American history, and far beyond that, for a lot of history, different types of slavery, of course. Or you can say that at least, if nothing else, he preached, he preached a truncated gospel that did not reflect the fullness of Jesus’s kingdom. Teaching in there, I incline in that direction. I want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you incline that direction as well.

Walter Strickland

Yeah. And so I wrote my, you know, my a thesis on Jonathan Edwards, you know. And several people have asked me so is, is Jonathan Edwards in heaven? And I said, well, first of all, I don’t know the the soul of any man, but the best thing I the best I can tell, is that he understood the Gospel Jesus Christ. And to your point, Colin, I think there’s a truncation of the Gospels implications that’s very clear in his ministry, despite the fact that it was clear in other in other areas that were outward facing. And I think that the the parable that sort of a John within Edwards offers us is the cultural formation that it that is at play and that we have to be very aware of in our own spiritual formation, because I think the his father and his grandfather, who are also English Gentry slave owners and ministers, they just, they didn’t give him the the implication, the implication of the gospel in that specific area. There were other areas where he did wonderfully, beautifully. But I would say that there was just a lack of an awareness to apply that gospel that he knew so well into that area. And so I would say that Jonathan Edwards is human. Is what he is. Jonathan Edwards is much like the rest of us. We are keenly aware of this area now, but there are areas that at some point our great grandchildren are going to look at us and say, How did our great granddad miss that? Our great grandmothers missed that? And so I’m hopeful and prayerful that I’d be able to, by God’s grace and the help of the Holy Spirit, to see what those things are now, so that I’m not, you know, in a similar way. Doing that to my to those who follow me,

Collin Hansen

yeah, and here in Birmingham, where I do a civil rights tour around the city, we’re not talking about great grandparents, we’re talking about parents or we’re talking about grandparents. And when I’m walking with students through these different locations, it would be very easy when I point out, here’s what this church did in 1963 here’s what this church said in 1963 during King’s marches and the bombing, it’s very easy for students to conclude, oh, well, that’s horrible. But of course, that was just a false church, and those are not real Christians. But what it does is it cuts you off from the implications of how you can be so right about preaching scripture in these areas and preaching the gospel, but be so wrong about its applications and its full implications there, then that brings it into our day to see, oh, maybe, maybe I’m the same in different ways that I just can’t See right now. That’s the approach that I strongly command. Yeah.

Walter Strickland

I mean, in a similar way, and I think a lot of this is, if we look at how people who were trying to utilize the scripture to promote slavery or reading the Bible, it’s clear to me that they were not reading the Bible with anybody who had concerns outside of their own. Because at least somebody like, you know, if a George, Jonathan Edwards, I mean, granted, I know Lemuel Haynes and he were, they somewhat overlap, but not directly, but just for the sake of the conversation. Because those are two very prolific gentlemen who are wonderful pastors and theologians. So if they were in conversation, if Edwards would have tried to bear the burden of his brother and looking at scripture, and, you know, alongside him, as they’re trying together to understand the meaning that the authors have given to us in Scripture divinely inspired, I think they would have, I think Edwards would have a different story as it pertains to his draft letter on slavery and things like that, I think that they would have sharpened each other as iron sharpens iron, and been able to see these challenges and also understand the Scripture in such a way that was more appropriate to more exegetically appropriate, as opposed to culturally formed. Not that Haynes is inherently a better interpreter on these issues. There’s there’s probably a sensitivity there that he would bring to the table, that that Edwards could have you learned from, and also vice versa on other issues. Yeah,

Collin Hansen

I think one pretty easy way to be able to test your hermeneutics is to be able to make sure that it could apply to everybody, and not just somebody in your social station. I think that’s a pretty clear test of of our biblical theology and test of our orthodoxy, one that’s not applied very often. But one thing that I that I do when I’m teaching on the hermeneutics of of slavery in particular, is try to point out that we will often associate the past with a with a quote, unquote like conservative view of Scripture. And if we today hold to what’s described as a conservative view of Scripture, we can often feel very defensive and look back and say, Well, I don’t really know exactly how they went wrong, and I can’t really explain it, but I know that it’s a big issue. Well, I try to look back and say, not only your point Walter of how do you compare to people who are not in your same station of life, but also look back on other conditions, and I’ll point out things like, Do you ever wonder why people are not making the same pro slavery arguments in the 18th century that they’re making in the 19th century, that slavery is the cornerstone of civilization. Well, something happened in the middle there, and that was the cotton gin, and that was slavery becoming far more profitable. So the issue is not these guys were studying the Bible. Well, in fact, they were not studying the Bible nearly enough, because they were allowing all sorts of other interests, including economic interests, including greed, to be able to tarnish and ultimately undermine their interpretation of Scripture. That’s not a conservative view of the Bible. That is a false reading of Scripture.

Walter Strickland

Yeah, and something that I think is very helpful for us, those who are who affirm the authority of God’s word, those who are trying to read the God, the word as as God, you know, as the words of God as authoritative. I think there’s this misnomer that if we consider our cultural formation in our reading of Scripture, that we’re I suggest eating that into it. You know, I actually consider myself as I read Scripture. So I do not. I should eat myself into the text. And so there, there’s because I, because we have seen instances, you know, in in Western thought, where people are are taking themselves into the reading of Scripture so much they’re seeing themselves in it’s a reader response from a new dick, if you’re if you’re aware that you know, with that, I know you are calling. But for those who are out there, it’s almost like the. We hold the Bible up to ourselves, and we look into it and read ourselves back to us, and it’s just sort of this cathartic experience, and it’s very subjective. But what I’m trying to articulate and what I think that we can learn from as we look back to the past on how could somebody read the Scripture and misread it this way? It’s that, you know, we have to be aware of our assumptions, aware of our tendencies that we’re given culturally, because we will bring those with us to the Bible. And often times, the best way to find those out is in community, as we surround the Scripture together. And so, you know, it’s, it is. It is one of those things where that is not a progressive way of looking at the Bible. It’s one that allows us in to to the best we can, not to isage ourselves into Scripture. I

Collin Hansen

couldn’t set it better Walter. So one of the things I also do in class is introduce the students to Charles Spurgeon, writing and preaching on slavery from the exact same pre Civil War period. So you got same theology as a Baptist, same Reformed theology as a lot of the Presbyterians and a lot of the Baptists at the time, especially of the Charleston tradition. So a lot of pro slavery advocates in the United States, and over here you have Spurgeon calling slavery evil. I mean, it is absurd. So you can see there, this is not a mere extension of your theology. This is eisegesis because of your particular time and place and culture, and it’s leading you away from Scripture. It’s not a conservative error. It’s a, I mean, it’s a failure of of understanding yourself contextually, which prevents you from a correct reading of Scripture.

Walter Strickland

Yeah, and so what’s beautiful is that there was very detrimental readings of Scripture that were utilized. They were expressly used to keep people docile, to keep them enslaved. So on larger plantations, they would have worship services. The slave master would bring in a preacher, or they themselves would sort of execute a passage of scripture. Sometimes it’d be First Corinthians seven to remain as you are, which is you know, and they would say, remain in your servitude, which is obviously a misreading of that passage, teaching the curse of ham, teaching the reminding them that when Israel left Egypt, they wanted to go back to Egypt and things of that nature. And so there, I mean, there, there were, there were stories of Scripture that were read, and then I would argue that were misinterpreted to apply to the slaves. But we have to remember is that the Word of God is alive and active and sharper than he, too had silver, amen. So what happened is that these people who were being read the Bible, but then it was being misapplied, they actually heard the Scripture read either anyway. And so the beautiful part of this is that they would then go to what, you know, scholars have called the invisible institution. This is the the gathering for worship outside of the gaze of the slave master, you know, covered by night, covered by you know, distance in the corners, and just basically a time where there was preaching of the Word, you know, what they’ve memorized. They would re preach that word. They would try to articulate that the best as possible, especially in an oral culture where it was illegal for them to learn how to read and so forth. They would tell the stories of Scripture. They would apply them to their their lives and their station of life. They would sing songs, which is, this is where the thing, negro spirituals came from. And they would worship God in spirit and in truth. And so this is, this is the the mystery that is, that’s going on at this time, despite these misapplications, misappropriations of the Scripture, God’s word was still going forward. And so these folks reclaimed a faith that was given them, you know, sometimes with good intent, sometimes with ill intent, but did good with it anyhow. And so that’s a that’s a beautiful way that we see that the word of God not returning void in these in these situations. Let’s

Collin Hansen

look at a positive example of this. I would love to hear you tell us more about Phillis Wheatley. Lot of people be familiar with her. Lot of people will not be familiar with her. She wrote her 1773 poem to a clergyman on the death of his lady when she was only 20 years old. And I just love this couple of friends in your book, he, in his death, slew hours, and as he rose, he crushed the dire dominion of our foes. Some beautiful stuff there tell us more about Phillis Wheatley.

Walter Strickland

So Phillis Wheatley was one of the earliest female poets in our country. She happened to be African American as well. She was born in Africa, she was bought, she was brought to America on a ship from when she got her name, the Phyllis, the people who purchased her, their last name was Wheatley and so but. She was taught how to read, I mean, and this was all outside of the law, but she was taught how to read. She was given a wonderful education. She was one of the instances of a kindly master having a kindly master, and they really educated her in a way that was profound. And so she actually wrote poetry that Thomas Jefferson even read, and so, so she, so she is one of the, she’s the first, I can’t remember. She’s the first woman published as a poet, or just the first African American woman, I think it’s the first woman published as a poet, and in this, you know, in this continent. So all to say, her impact is profound. She and others like she was directly impacted by Lemuel hangings that we’ve already mentioned, worshiping there, impacted by his ministry. And so she, she’s one of those examples. Her as a poet. Others, you know, missionaries, like evangelists like Drina Lee, missionaries that are, that are just doing great work in in an era where we’re often just assuming that, oh, this is, this is all about slavery and nothing beyond that. And so it’s, it’s interesting, because for me, I often associate the story of, you know, before I really studied it, of African American Christianity, with what was done to African Americans, as opposed to being able to see the beauty that African Americans contribute, contributed to the the African or the American Christian story. So there’s just so many great examples of that. And I’ll just give you one more example, yeah, one of the, one of the things that I was so surprised about as I begin to just delve into all these primary sources, into the broader narrative, was the place of African American missionaries and the prominence of African American missionaries even as early as someone like Betsy Stockton, who I mentioned in the introduction of the book, she she was a missionary who went to what was called at that point, the sandwich Island, which is Hawaii. And she went with a Princeton trained theologian and pastor, and to go to go establish, for her, a school there for the indigenous population. So the story of Betsy Stockton and so many others, is just profound. And I love telling those stories to to demonstrate the the the way in which the faith took root in the African American Christian imagination and really just formed it in so many powerful ways, even in the grip of racism and slavery.

Collin Hansen

And two of the Christian traditions that African Americans really made their own were the Baptist and Methodist traditions. What was it that led so many African Americans to gravitate toward those expressions of the faith? Yeah, so

Walter Strickland

with, with both of those with, I’ll start with Methodist and then with Baptist, because Baptist has the by far the most well today, as well as Church of God in Christ has the most adherent today. But as far as Methodist and Baptist, they actually both began as anti slavery denominations. Unfortunately, you know, I detail the story of how they moved away from those anti slavery stances over time. However, both of them were, were very enthusiastic in their sort of presentations of the gospel during the Great Awakenings. And in those awakenings there was, there was some sort of a moment there where it was very egalitarian, not in the complimentarian and egalitarian sort of debate sense as far as double commentary goes, but egalitarian in that, you know, if you were black, if you’re a white, if you’re a male, if you are female, you come into the the the revival meeting, and everyone is just kneeling before the cross, and everyone is on an equal plane before God. And so that was a beautiful thing there. So, and that’s really where a lot of African Americans became either Methodist, entering into Methodist churches, or they would get saved and enter into Baptist churches. Baptist in particular, they there was a lot more local church autonomy there, which is one of the hallmarks of Baptist polity, how Baptist churches arranged themselves. They’ll, you know, by choice, they will, they will work together towards unified causes and conventions and associations. But at the end of the day, they’re independent, local, autonomous, local churches. So with that being said, it was easy for African American churches to establish themselves with black ministers because they didn’t have to appeal to a body that didn’t have their best interest in mind, and so coordination standards

Collin Hansen

that would have excluded them, and educational institutions Exactly,

Walter Strickland

exactly. So there’s a lot that would go into somebody becoming ordained in a Presbyterian context, Anglican Episcopal context. That they just couldn’t attain to. So Baptist became, not only just a default, but there was a lot of practices like baptism by immersion that were that were in some ways reminiscent of practices in Africa there. I’m not saying that they’re they were syncretistic. There might, there might have been some who were but there are practices that are reminiscent of the some of those realities of worship services in back in Africa.

Collin Hansen

Yeah, there’s a lot we can learn from especially 19th century Baptist and Methodist history. And you, you alluded to one of the things that we can learn. Those denominations became the largest denominations in the south, and the Second Great Awakening, in part, by moving away from those egalitarian tendencies and moving in defense of slavery, they became popular the more that they moved away from Scripture. In those ways, that’s definitely a warning for our day in some ways. Now I’ve, you know, I’ve read a good bit on the history of the black church, but your book, you really organize and systematize characteristic beliefs of black churches in ways that I just haven’t seen before. I want to ask specifically about the hermeneutic of participation, where readers identify with biblical characters such as the Hebrew slaves as one example, and you write that the inseparability of thought and action for theology and ethics is a staple of the black Christian tradition. Just love to hear more Walter about why this distinctive stands out for African Americans. Yeah, you

Walter Strickland

know, there is a there’s a sense in which that theologizing is not done until it’s doing something. It’s very Solomonic in its approach to wisdom. So living out wisdom, it’s, it’s, you know, if you have it, that it’s done, it’s not just theorized. So if we’re, you know, in many, if you look to the this tradition, there’s a reading about Israel, there’s a reading about, you know, God’s people, Old and New Testament. There’s a putting on of Christ and a participation in what God was doing. Then this is not saying, Okay, we’re going to live according to the law. This is not saying that we are Israel. This is not saying, you know, it’s in certain that relate, that special relationship that God had with Israel. African Americans aren’t stepping into that relationship, but what they are saying is that God, characteristic of this God that we know and love, that’s revealed to us in Scripture, is that he’s a deliverer. We see that in the accident Exodus, characteristic of this God is one who is offering provision there, there he he’s providing for his people, not only in the with the land, but also we see this. They’re they’re providing for the outsider, the soldier, the foreigner, and so with the law, if they’re not gleaning to the edges, if they are, you know, leaving some for them. And this, Boaz is a wonderful example of this. And so they said, This is the kind of God who is engaging with the world in a way that we see, appreciate, and we should participate in and with his mission in the world. And so that participant, that hermeneutic participation, again, it’s not a one to one, but it’s a saying. You know, God is a saying, yesterday, today and forever. And what we should do is try to read the scripture for God to reveal Himself to us, and let’s participate in the ways in which God interacted with his world for the sake of the proclamation of the gospel and giving, and then also living in light of that proclamation of good news.

Collin Hansen

So I’m guessing Walter this point is related to what you argue about apologetics. You say that black apologetics have focused less on the existence of God, more on the problem of evil and suffering. Have a couple examples you could share of this apologetic work?

Walter Strickland

Yeah, so, so one, one, so that that’s kind of like juxtaposed with contemporary sort of Western apologetics. You know, in the West, you’re going to have to argue for their being a god, for the existence of God as one of the first steps in the apologetic process. But with African Americans, for the most part, I mean, especially throughout history and even now, disproportionately, you’re not, you know, trying to convince people that God exists. You are trying to convince people that the the God of the Bible is the one true God and so. So then, if that’s the case, well, then how do we deal with the fact that, you know, there’s evil in the world, and there’s evil that was specifically aimed at African Americans because of racialization and so and even so done in the name of Christianity, and, you know, said to be as an action derived from the pages of Scripture. So how do you deal with that? So, you know, there’s, there’s lots of conversation about this, but, you know, I offer five anchors. There are theological concepts that sort of ground the African American Christian. And tradition. I offer this in the introduction to volume one of swing low and also Volume Two, because you can see them develop throughout the primary sources of volume two and the narrative in volume one. And really it’s, it’s the idea there’s a big God, there’s a God who is able, there’s a God whose timing is perfect. There’s a God who is able to deliver his his children from Egypt, and he did in his time by His power. And that God is all wise, he is good, and he is working in that same way now. So the reality is, is because God is eternal, that same God is at work. And we see this even in the in the in the in the sermons of like someone like Doctor King, one of, one of the, I think one of the the best sermons that he preached was our God is able. And then he talks about what’s going on in society. He talks about the evil that’s going on. He’s saying, but our God is able. And essentially, with that, he’s saying we don’t have to fight for ourselves necessarily. God is doing his work on our behalf, and So fear not is what that is saying. So I know there’s, there’s lots of conversation to be had about his theology and his life and so forth, but I bring that example because it’s one that’s often that’s more accessible because of its other king papers now.

Collin Hansen

Yeah, this next question Walter is really it’s a two parts of the same question. I’m wondering, why do so many black churches, black church leaders, feel like they’re pressured to always have to prove their orthodoxy before other ethnicities. It’s something you talk especially as you get to later part of volume one. And I guess maybe flip this around, because this feels like kind of a two front conflict for a lot of black church leaders. Because you also point out, especially those who are reformed, because, let’s point out, that there are a number of black Christians who know Reformed theology, don’t subscribe to it, and at least they wonder, if not outright state, that this theological system is inherently racist. At two sides here, that’s got to be a difficult dynamic to navigate. On the one hand, trying to prove your theological orthodoxy all the time. On the other, having to defend whether your own theology you subscribe to is inherently racist, yeah.

Walter Strickland

So, you know, if you think about, you know, even globally speaking, the Reformed theology that was sort of taken on by Afrikaans and apartheid South Africa, if you look at, you know, even you know, someone like Jonathan Edwards and others who were proponents of Reformed theology, there, there is the question for some African Americans, and even you know, those outside the African American community, does this system lead you to if some of the most profound contributors to that system are in favor of slavery or in favor it didn’t do much during the Civil Rights Movement, is there something inherent within the system that drives you in that direction? I would say, No, I think I have a decent understanding of how people got there, but I would say it’s not inherently racist. That’s certainly not the case. I mean, I’m, you know, standing within the Reformed Baptist tradition myself, and so I’ve, you know, I’m unscathed. I hope, however, the the question about, you know, having to defend your orthodoxy. So, the, and this is a matter of matters that we take the good news of Jesus Christ and apply it to. So, so, for example, I there’s, there’s questions that I have that I held close to my chest in seminary, that I needed to answer in order to minister to people who are from the same environment that I come from, either my family or my friends. But as I was in seminary at Bible college, and even Yeah, I’ll just say those two it seemed like those were questions that the reformed tradition didn’t say much to. Therefore, if I asked that question, it was an atypical question. So that question must be a liberal question, and so, or if there’s a question that I raised as somebody who is a reformed evangelical that might have been raised by a liberationist while trying to answer it with my own theological presuppositions, I there’s a tendency for people to lump me in and others in who have similar questions in the same camp of those who have most prominently asked and answered that question, even if I think the answers that they’ve given to those questions are not theologically appropriate. I know that’s a lot there, but so because of that, I’m often, you know, there’s often question about my own commitment to Orthodoxy, because my lived experience is. Is commensurate with other African Americans who may or may not have share my own theological convictions, and so as folks who are coming in with an atypical sort of lived experience as an evangelical or as a reformed person, there are certain questions that will raise matters that need to be theologized about, put under Christ’s lordship, that are not shared across the board. And unfortunately, those inquiries sometimes cause people to wonder if we share the same theological foundations of others who have engaged those, those same issues and so, and I think that’s that’s a tragedy. It certainly is.

Collin Hansen

Yeah, that’s really that’s really difficult, and I think Walter. It also comes full circle to what we were talking about there with Whitefield and Edwards and saying, if they’d had different experiences, or if they’d had different conversation partners for their theology, perhaps they would not have been making those errors there. But it’s a lot easier for somebody who doesn’t have those experiences to look back on them and say, I can’t see what any problem is here. Yeah, I don’t agree with them on that point. But why is that such a big big deal? Or why would it be a big deal of what happened in South Africa? Or why would it be a big deal of what southern Presbyterians were saying in 1860 why can’t we just, why can’t we just ignore that or just say, Yeah, I guess everybody gets some things wrong. Every once in a while, that’s a lot more difficult to to dismiss when it’s something that that you connect with experientially, either directly or identify with generationally, previously. So, but that’s that two front difficulty, on the one hand, always trying to prove orthodoxy to one group. On the other hand, trying to prove that you’re not subscribing to an inherently racist system yourself. It’s just obviously very exhausting for a lot of minority leaders,

Walter Strickland

yeah, and I would say so, for those African American in particular sort of thinkers, pastors, who are in a reformed space, there’s, there’s heat from all sides, you know, there’s, there’s those African Americans who are saying, Hey, are you get giving yourself to a system that’s going to lead you in a direction that is, you know, against your own interests? And then what happens is, if I look at not the system, but how the system has been lived out. Then for those who are committed to the system, they think I’m walking away from or critiquing the foundations of our faith, which is what’s not happening,

Collin Hansen

right? You know now we’ve been talking here primarily about Swing low, a history of the black Christian in the United States. Volume One, IVP academic. Volume Two is also out. Tell us more if people want to pick up volume, Up Volume Two, what are they going to get there? Walter, so

Walter Strickland

Volume One, as I mentioned, is a theological narrative. It’s a it’s a story of the development of African American the African American Christian tradition. And I try to do it explicitly from a theological perspective. There’s been tellings of this story that have happened with focus on denominational development, sort of political engagement, the public square, with all kinds of emphases, like radicalism, even from a liberationist perspective. But I said we need to have a theological telling of this story, so that we see that there are people who are doing great work, who are not rebels without a cause. They’re Christians who are applying their faith to their life. And so what I do in Volume Two is that I offer you the primary sources that drive this theological narrative. And so it’s one thing for me to just tell you what they about, what they say, summarize them in my own words. And in fact, because those who have a more mainline or, you know, progressive sort of understanding of these sources have told the story more than the historically sort of Orthodox or evangelical voice, there’s going to be going to be people who can test my telling of this story. And so I said, Well, I’ll release two volumes. So if you want to question my understanding of these primary sources. I’m gonna give you 112 of them, and you can deal with that. And so what I do, yeah, like, hey, you know, I, you know, to use contemporary vernacular. I got the receipts to back up what I’m saying in volume one and so, and they’re out there for everyone to see. Because I think that in the past, those who had access to these resources that are in Volume Two had access to them, but a lot of people didn’t have easy access to them, so that they can make them do what they wanted to and interpret them how they want, without having any contest to that interpretation. And so, by God’s grace and the work of a lot of people, the gracious gifts of others. To compile this in one place, we’re able to read these primary sources. And Volume Two is a little thicker than volume one, but it’s actually one of those resources where you can read a sermon excerpt and then put the book down. I’ll introduce a poem by Phillis Wheatley to you. You can read that you can put it down. Kind of come back to. You can read some liturgy and put it down. So it’s one of those. It’s a good reference work. And we try to help coach you through that. Coach you through these primary sources, introducing to you to the figures who wrote them, why they wrote them, and some of their background and so forth. So we introduced periods that are hopefully helpful for you to understand how these are situated in the context of American history. So that’s Volume One, also juxtaposed with Volume Two, and how they work together.

Collin Hansen

We’ll do a final three rapid questions here with Walter Strickland. He’s a council member for the gospel coalition, Associate Professor of systematic and contextual Theology at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. Alright, Walter, will do these, these quick. How do you find calm in the storm? Calm in the storm? You

Walter Strickland

know, I, I, I have several sort of concentric circles that help me do that. Well, the first one is my own relationship with the Lord. You know, I am human, so I often need help to be pointed back to Christ, back to the to the Holy Spirit, to help me understand the fullness and live out the fullness of Christ and the peace that he brings. I have a wonderful wife who is always gesturing me Christ’s word, very much embedded into my local church as an elder, but I’m on the a council of 14 elders who all have license to speak into my life and to direct me towards Christ, who is our hope and peace and so really, and on another practical level, music is a great resource for me. I learned how to worship through playing music. I’m a drummer. I play saxophone. I grew up in a very musical family, so that means of expressing adoration, hope and trust in God has been a very natural way for me to then branch out into other you know, expressions of worship in life that really helped focus me on Christ amid the struggles and difficulty of life.

Collin Hansen

Oh, of that answer. Walter. Second one, where do you find good news today? Good

Walter Strickland

news, man, that I say, I say that with a chuckle, because we have so many mediums of finding bad news. I mean, people Doom scrolling all the time. So, so really, like scripture, obviously, is the is the Jesus juke answer. But I mean, there’s so much richness there, and I’m so blessed by it. I continue to explore its pages. And the more I do, the more I find. And so and I and it’s, it’s, it’s so powerfully relevant today as well. So I would say Scripture also. You know, in just a moment or two, I’m getting ready to have, you know, some folks over my house from my small group. They’re always offering, you know, evidences of God’s grace in their life. And we just celebrate what God is doing in our lives. And I think that’s a part of it, too. So we look to the word that’s the, you know, inerrant, infallible. But we also find good news that that are that others have found, and we are very quick to tell each other that so we can celebrate so living life incarnate is also another way of doing that.

Collin Hansen

I like it. Last question, what’s the last great book you’ve read? Can’t say scripture. That’s a given.

Walter Strickland

The last great book I’ve read. So there’s a book called bearing witness that’s coming out by Baker press. Daniel L Hill is a professor at Baylor University, and it’s actually I wrote it. I read it to endorse it, and I actually read it from page one through the end, you know. And so I it’s about three abolitionists who are African Americans, and it’s about their Evans uncle, witness, and how they bore witness of their faith that transformed them, and about their engagement in society to bear witness to Christ. And I hope that a lot more examples of, you know, a faithfulness throughout our history that emerge with any sort of cultural group in any denomination are going to be put out there. But I find that one particularly helpful, and that’s the most recent thing I read. So bearing witness. Daniel Hill, it’s a wonderful book about abolitionist, African American abolitionist and their engagement with the Scripture, but also in their culture,

Collin Hansen

the most encouraging things when we look to history and we deal Walter with so many of these hard questions about some of our theological heroes we’ve mentioned so often, here is we see it didn’t have to be that way. There were other people who disagreed, there were other people who didn’t make those same mistakes. That can be a little bit chastening, but it’d also be very encouraging, and sometimes for a variety of reasons, we don’t know their stories as well, because they didn’t succeed. That’s one thing that I try to do to excavate the stories of people who spoke out in favor. Of civil rights, including within majority white or predominantly white churches here in Birmingham, Alabama, because their stories have been lost because they didn’t win. So trying to reclaim those stories as well. Yeah,

Walter Strickland

so And there’s, and, you know, I mentioned those three abolitionists, those three having to be African American, like William Lloyd Garrison was, was somebody who was just a powerful, very resourced man who then put others in positions where they can then speak powerfully about the issues. Oh, for certain, for certain, Maria Stewart was another one that he put into place to be heard very prominently. So, praise be to God, for all of God’s children who are born bearing witness to Christ in that historical moment.

Collin Hansen

Amen, my guest gospel bound has been Walter Strickland. The book is swing low, a history of black Christianity in the United States. Walter. Thank you very much.

Walter Strickland

Thank you for having me, Collin.