Top Theology Stories of 2021

Collin Hansen
This is Gospelbound, a podcast from The Gospel Coalition for those searching for resolute hope and an anxious age, wherever you’re listening from. Welcome. I’m your host, Collin Hansen. And I’m glad you’re here for today’s conversation.

Welcome to a special edition of gospel bound. And let’s talk. I’m calling Hanson and I’m the host of gospel bound. And I’m joined by my good friend, my dear friend and colleague, Melissa Kruger, one of the hosts of Let’s Talk, you’re listening to bonus season end episode of our podcast, which launched in 2020. Last year, thank you, everybody, for your faithful listening and support. We wanted to take you behind the scenes with this podcast, look back on the big stories and trends from 2021. And of course, also, thank you for listening and encouraging us in this work.

Melissa Kruger
Well, a lot has happened since our last podcast together. I think we were maybe hopeful last year at this time that COVID would be a distant memory. And unfortunately, that’s like a recurring nightmare instead. And we’re gonna jump to your top 10 theology stories in just a moment. But let me start first with the TGC related question because you never get to sit on the other side of the interview seat and be interviewed yourself. So you have changed roles this year at TGC. And you have traveled internationally to speak. Um, you actually got in an a narrow little window that you could get in and it was such a direct answer to prayer. It was, it was really sweet to see. But can you share a little bit about your changing role, and just where you got to go and what you saw when you were there?

Collin Hansen
Yeah, so this this year, Melissa has been a whirlwind I stepped in at the invitation of our president Julius Kim to become vice president of content. And also editor in chief those are distinct roles but overlapping roles in Editor in Chief, I’m overseeing our publications across our day to day articles, to podcasts and videos and, and conference planning, things like that working with you in those areas. But as vice president of content, I’m thinking also, broader, institutionally more long term about ways that we need to adapt and ways that we need to grow. As you know, Melissa, this is an ever changing landscape for publishing. So that’s it’s been a fun responsibility there. And part of that one of the great joys I had was working with two of our international groups and one of them TDC. Nordic, which the Nordic countries range anywhere from, from Finland all the way over to Iceland, and including the Scandinavian countries of Sweden and Norway and Denmark. And so I got to participate in the first ever TGC Nordic Conference in Copenhagen in September. And shout out to Christian Roth, and to all of our our leaders out there and for the great work, what an encouragement Melissa to be able to be not only in a place that felt more normal, because at the time, there were fewer COVID restrictions there. But also because it’s got a chance to hear from believers talking about Jesus and their hope for what he was doing in their city. And even though they had small numbers, they were still dedicated to evangelism and discipleship. And, and there was a church plant right there in downtown Copenhagen that I got to preach for is actually their first service and first public service and met in a study abroad student who had come from Texas. I mean, it was just a fun, a fun situation. And then, as you mentioned, what an open door to prayer that just the day before I was supposed to fly to the Netherlands, it was still closed to American travelers without quarantine, but then that opened up, was able to travel over there. And a similar dynamic for our first ever TGC Netherlands Flanders conference. And the theme of that conference was the post COVID church and we were celebrating the translation into Dutch of my book from this last year rediscover church, why the body of Christ is essential. So talk with him about that. But again, just a privilege. What an amazing thing, Melissa, I’m sitting there, and I’m noticing one of the staffers in the background, and he had been presenting on different books, but it was in Dutch, so I had no idea what was going on. And I come up to him afterward. And and sure enough, he shows he opens up his computer and he says, hey, just so you know, I’m working with crossway to build the site for all of the 20 translations of your book that we’ve been working with you and crossway and nine marks on and I had no idea. Shout out to Marcel, but I had no idea who was working on that how that was looking what the plan was for that I just knew that I was excited with this global pandemic, this call to regather in the church was going out 20 different languages and with free editions digitally being available for there, it’s I think it’s that rediscover church book.com, if I remember correctly, but so just a joy to be able to do that. And then the the theme at the Nordic conference was on the post Christian West reaching the post Christian West with the gospel and just given my own heritage, my family having come from Denmark in the 1920s, less than 100 years ago, in fact, and just an area that I have been studying a lot this year in preparation for some 2023 projects that Lord willing, we’ll get around to but that’s a long answer to your question. But that was a real. That was just that was just a real highlight from 2021.

Melissa Kruger
That’s so great. It’s been so nice, I think for us all, to see the joy of being together again. I mean, you write about it in your book. But the reality is, I think we’ve all felt it as we’ve walked back into places of worship. And even for us, you know, even going to the conferences, we had back to back conferences, oh, well, this year, which we rescheduled them, we thought, Oh, of course, we’ll have these conferences next April, it’s so far away. And then it really was much more difficult than we realized.

Collin Hansen
And they turned out to be the the first events that were held, not sports related in that convention center. And my goodness, special thanks to Seth Magnussen, and Andrew Selleck and all the other different people on our staff who put that together. And I’m just glad, Melissa, that we didn’t have to say, hey, Melissa, how about we just bumped back another year? This conference, I think, I think you may have died?

Melissa Kruger
One of the two may have happened.

Collin Hansen
Quit before die.

Melissa Kruger
No, it was great. It was great. I remember walking in that room, and seeing everybody. And you know, a lot of our speakers speak a lot. And they go a lot of places, and no one had gone anywhere for a year and a half. And so it was this, everybody was so happy and joyful to see each other. I think the withholding of some of the fellowship almost made us get to a little foretaste of heaven, and how sweet it is to be together.

Collin Hansen
We had restrictions that we needed to put into place and folks were very honoring about dealing with that we had no evidence of any kind of outbreaks or anything. And also, the difficulty leads to innovation. And one of the things I was most excited about, I know that you were as well was the, you know, the leadership that our team from Seth Magnuson and Steven Morales and others gave to this the simulcast of being able to watch all of our different breakouts at the same time, and you can still go and sign up to be able to watch all of those on our site, from the 2021 events. But it’s also the first time ever that we did the events back to back. Yeah. Which, which was, hopefully, I think that’s safe to say. But, but I just, it was a it was a joy, Melissa, to be able to work with you on all of that. And it was, it was wonderful to see the Lord provide for us in that way. So thanks for your leadership in those events. This Yeah,

Melissa Kruger
It was great. It was great. We produced five books for this conferences, but we won’t get into all that. So even leading up to it. It was crazy. Ivan is a Saint

Collin Hansen
Ivan Mesa, we love you.

Melissa Kruger
Lots going on. But let’s jump into our top 10 theology stories or your top 10 theology stories.

Collin Hansen
Don’t take the blame Melissa.

Unknown Speaker
These are Collins top 10 theology stories, not mine, send all emails to college. I’ll give you an email address. Please don’t do

Melissa Kruger
well, let’s actually this was one of our book topics that we wrote about. We published a book for the conference called before you lose your faith. And it was talking about this concept of deconstruction, which for some people might be a newer word. You know, and there were a lot of books out this year that were critiquing conservative Protestant theology, and then your top 10 stories. You mentioned a healthy version of deconstruction. I had never heard this term called and I’m probably gonna say it wrong. This in cold tration

Collin Hansen
Dis-inculturation Yeah, okay,

Melissa Kruger
This dis-inculturation Okay, thank you for helping me pronounce that. Now. I have it It’s like complementarian, you can’t spell check doesn’t check it. It’s like, what? Can you explain the difference between you caught this a healthy version? of rather than deconstruction? Can you explain kind of the differences and compare and contrast those for us so that we can understand a little more what you’re talking about.

Collin Hansen
And I’m so glad you asked that, Melissa, because that concept was what led Ivan Mesa and me to put together this book before you lose your faith deconstructing doubt in the church, because we’d gotten a submission from Hunter Beaumont a pastor out in Colorado. And he was proposing that in all this conversation about deconstruction, which means a lot of things to a lot of different people, but it can mean anything from I’m rethinking some of the beliefs and practices that I inherited as a Christian growing up to, I am changing many of my significant beliefs that are bringing me into significant conflict with my parents, church leaders, whatnot. Or I am leaving the faith altogether, because I don’t buy any of this stuff anymore. So it’s, it’s one of those terms that’s popped been popular for a number of years in the academy, and now it’s broken out into popular usage. And as it’s broken out, in popular usage, it’s lost any coherent definition. But what this inculturation does is it’s essentially, it gives you a version of deconstruction that is healthy. That is essentially Melissa, whatever you think about missionaries needing to do. So you think about a missionary, you’re going overseas, you’re presenting the gospel, you need to think through a few different things. One of them is that what’s the core gospel message that does not change from any place, or any time as revealed in God’s timeless word? Okay, don’t change one iota of that. Second, what are those things that they might be practices that are very important to me, they might mean a lot to me think about certain songs, or even think about certain styles of music. They’re not biblical, they’re cultural. But they’re also not necessarily bad. They’re not something that you need to you need to throw out from your faith. But if it becomes a stumbling block to somebody from hearing the gospel, then you may need to change that and adapt that. So think about the difference between say 19th and early 20th century missions where there was a sense that you, when they would go, you’d have to change your dress, you’d have to change your education, you have to change your speaking, you have to change your language, it’s changed your music style. Okay, well, missions has changed quite a bit since that toward more indigenous expressions of the faith. Then at the third level, there’s also the perspective of, actually there were some things that I learned in my faith, that now that I have a little bit of critical distance from them, they’re just flat wrong. And they’re unbiblical and I cannot hold to those things anymore. Okay, that’s what this inculturation does, is instead of just reserving that for missionaries, it brings it home. So that every one of us actually has to do that process that’s just part of maturity as a believer. So we we set off in this book through hunters example, to be able to say, hey, we understand this is part of growing up, this is part of the challenge this time. There’s a lot of things swirling out there. And all of us do have to enter into this process of dis inculturation. To be able to get back to the basics of the gospel, and to hold all of God’s word as as truthful to us in all places in all times. So I’m excited, Melissa, early in January, I’m going to be leading, teaching a class at based in Divinity School on cultural apologetics where I’m going to ask all of the students to write a personal statement of this inculturation. And so a lot of that was spurred by my work on this book. It’s just been a concept very helpful to

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, that’s interesting. So whereas deconstruction might take you away from scripture, it doesn’t have to, but it can, but does inculturation forces you to look more deeply at Scripture to say where has what I believe, maybe not, maybe even a manmade right expression of or, you know, for us a Western expression of Christianity that might not be actually biblical. It’s almost like you could have said, Jesus came and was asking the first century Pharisee to do that. Yeah, you’re listening to manmade laws. And I’m telling you, if you had actually listened to Moses, you would understand Yeah, Jesus says you’d understand who I am.

Collin Hansen
And they added and they added, yes, as well, which is part of what we see here as well. And I would say Melissa with One of the major theological stories of this year has especially been how this lens has been turned on evangelicalism as you alluded to, historically, and especially related to issues between men and women in the church. And that’s always the difficulty is, how do you hold fast to what the Bible explicitly teaches? Without at the same time imposing a whole lot of cultural demands that the Bible does not put on men and women? What the same time recognizing that there is no culture, less experience of the faith? Yeah, those are three distinct steps that I think a lot of times get lost in the confusion and the polemics of No, how dare you abandon the faith by tweaking this thing? Oh, no. How do I mean? It now this is part of a maturation process, but ultimately, it should be guiding us back to God, back to his word.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah. And it requires that deep time in the word more time in the word than on Twitter, more time in the word than even reading other people’s ideas about these concepts. And it really, I think, also even like Hebrews mentions, it not just takes time in the Word, but then the discernment to know how to apply it takes a lot of practice and years of being led by the Spirit. So I think it’s, it’s really, it’s really complicated for that reason, but it hopefully, we know that our minds are being transformed and renewed. So hopefully, in 10 years, we will think differently, even about what the Bible teaches not not the basic core truths, but that we will have grown in our understanding and knowledge and wisdom. So that’s hopeful for all of us. On a somewhat related topic, you write about the podcast that everyone’s been listening to this year, I think, I mean, I’m amazed when I’ve talked to friends all over, you know, my, my Christian world, so to speak, almost all of them have been listening to the rise and fall of Mars Hill hosted by Mike Cosper. You were interviewed on the podcast numerous times. So it was always fun to hear you on there. But you said it’s the most important breakthrough and Christian media. Why do you think this podcast was listened to by so many people? And what can we learn from it?

Collin Hansen
Yeah, I haven’t seen anything as innovative as this and wide ranging in Christian media in the last decade. And it’s kind of crazy, Melissa, but as you know, not much unifies us in the church anymore. Especially with with different media and this podcast, oddly enough, unified lots of people, because you could be working for TGC. And having had a lot of the difficult experiences that I talked about on the podcast. You could be somebody who is deeply involved in Acts 29 and still thinks maybe that in some ways Mark wasn’t treated as well. Mark Driscoll was not treated as well as he should have been. You can be somebody who has completely deconstructed your faith because you see it as being a retrograde patriarchal religion as exemplified through Mark Driscoll is misogyny. You could be somebody like my friends, and just sort of acquaintances in Birmingham, who you don’t know anything about Mark Driscoll, you don’t know anything about Marcel, you know anything about the gospel coalition, or x 29, the resurgence. But you just heard about this wild podcast, and you would have to listen to this guy to believe him. And so oddly enough, it just had a little bit of something for everybody in ways that most media doesn’t anymore. It’s just so niche. And so, so many different people had an accent access point into this podcast, in his podcast, and I think it’s also a perfect storm of, of a time when the young justice reform movement that I’ve written so much about has, has seen a lot of fragmentation. And one of those first breaks was with Mark eight, nine years ago, which we talked about in the podcast there and there have been many other breaks and things since then. But that was one of the major major shifts then. But it but then at the same time, it hits exactly when, as we’re, as we just talked about in the last question, all these accusations of Jesus and John Wayne and the ways that that Christianity has been manipulated for misogynistic reasons, that that those books are really popular as well. And so really just a perfect storm and I mean, I’m, I’m really looking forward to a certain someone’s book coming out in 2022, about spiritual abuse, because we desperately need healthy biblical wise categories to be thinking about this because just to give you an example, Melissa, in my every day Ministry and you, you know that as we’re working as editors and leaders at TGC, we’re looking to serve ordinary church leaders, ordinary Christians, we’re just trying to serve them. And so we take very seriously the experiences that we have in the church. And I was interviewing this last weekend, a new couple. And it was clear to join our churches members. And it was clear as I was looking through their story that they had experienced a lot of pain in Christian ministry. And sure enough, at the end, the wife just asked me, Hey, if you have any experience or resources on spiritual abuse, I would love to know about them, because I’m still trying to work through the struggles of what I’ve experienced. And just the week before one of my closest friends in ministry had written and said, Hey, I need some help. Because my leaders have been listening to this podcast. And they’re convinced that anything that just looks like normal, good leadership is actually just a form of spiritual abuse. And so you can just see this range of people have, there are so many people with real painful experiences out there that have connected with this, and we need to learn about why so many of us and I’m just putting myself in this category, not you have tolerated it, for whatever reason, and of putting put up with it when we never should have. And people got hurt for that. And that’s one of the reasons I wanted to go on that podcast was to confess that, and at the same time, that there will be some people who struggled to discern between good, godly convictional leadership. And we’ll use the term spiritual abuse as a way of dismissing people and ideas that they don’t like, Mm hmm. And we’re just going to be in that tension for quite a while.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, yeah, it’s definitely made me actually related to the earlier story, go back and really look at what is the nature of Christian leadership? I think I just assumed it kind of look like worldly leadership. You know, you want the person who can walk in and command the room and has charisma. And Paul Tripp has an excellent book. Did it come out this year on leadership? Or was that?

Collin Hansen
I think that was last year? Yeah, there was. Yeah,

Melissa Kruger
Yeah. One of the things he said when you look at the list of pastoring is there’s one gift and the rest is character. Teaching is the gift and the restaurant character traits. And I think I think it’s been a good check on the church just to say, what are we looking for? Do we want the guy who can be CEO of the bank? Or do we want you want someone who leads in a really different way? And I think it’s a good, it’s been a, it’s been a helpful thing to consider.

Collin Hansen
I’m enjoying imagining Mark Driscoll as CEO of a bank, I think, for somebody who just wasn’t a shock jock. But you’re right, that I think you make a good point there, Melissa, that spiritual abuse comes in many different packages. And also, I feel the need to clarify this as well. Many different church sizes. Yeah, yeah. And it doesn’t have to be some sort of mega church that wants to be the biggest church in the country for the problem.

Melissa Kruger
That’s right. It’s right. It’s really using spiritual power to yield it over others rather than serve. And I love I love how Jesus we just see such a different example. He says it will you know, when I think it’s the sons of Zebedee, when they want to call lightning down on their enemies. He’s like, no, no, no. That’s how the Gentiles do it. No, we’re not going to lead that way. The greatest among us, the one who serves and I think it’s made me really pay attention to that, from Moses, to Paul, they called themselves not leaders, but they call themselves servants, certain Moses, servant of God, Paul, servant of Jesus Christ. Yeah, it’s just an interesting, it’s a little bit of a word change. But it really matters, how we view ourselves, and how different people who are themselves in the church

Collin Hansen
I think if we all just took Jesus more seriously, we would be in a better situation. I mean, Mark 10:45, right there the Son of Man came not to be served, but to serve not to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many, is very clear what leadership looks like. It looks like taking the blows for the sake of others. It looks like not considering yourself like in Philippians, but considering others more important than yourself. And in so many of the divisions that I talked about in my top 10 theology stories. A lot of it comes down to not taking Jesus seriously and not doing basic things that we were told to do you In the word, and if you have a church, if we have churches, or people or ministries like TGC, where people do not consider the interests of others more important than themselves and are looking to serve, then you do end up with strife, envy, malice, and all the all those sins that that we see in those vise lists in Scripture. So that’s just, um, that’s just straight up. That’s just, that’s just what the Bible tells us.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s right. And I think one area that we have seen this in so much in the church this year, lots of strife, lots of division about another one of your stories, is the continual effects of COVID, COVID and COVID mandates. And I would say COVID, exhaustion on the local church, and I’d love to hear your thoughts. You hear from a lot of pastors. There’s a lot of exhaustion out there. More pastors, maybe thinking about leaving altogether? Because of some of the strife and division and yeah, you think about it, you’ve served families, you’ve loved families, you baptize. Well, I was gonna say baptize babies. Sorry, that’s okay. Yeah. You loved people. And then because of a mass mandate? Yeah. They’re like, Oh, I’m out. I’m leaving whichever way it might be. We’ve seen on both sides of the spectrum. But yeah, these pastors who came to your hospital bed and sat beside you, and you know, we’re there for you. And we’re seeing this, I think pastoral exhaustion and weariness, maybe at a different level. How have you seen that? Or heard that? And have you seen the effects in the local church of all that’s happened with COVID?

Collin Hansen
Melissa, this cuts across so many different ways, because on the one hand, who among us in seminary, studied epidemiology, in infectious diseases? And you know, Scott, James, my friend out there, yeah, you’re the exception. You’re one of the few elders who can claim you actually have studied these things.

If your pastor is Miguel Nunez, you’re totally accepted. This, you better listen to him. But even even those experts have struggled to understand what’s going on around us these last two years. And I think that’s the key aspect here of what made this toward the top of my theology stories is that we’re living through an epistemological crisis. And that is that we don’t know what or who we can trust, what information we can trust, what orders we, we must obey. Because that’s what the government demands us to do for our own good or what needs to be resisted for the greater good, that is just a struggle that I don’t think, Melissa, we’ve come close to resolving. And we told everybody in this podcast, we were going to take them behind the scenes. So I want to take them behind the scenes to the year 2019. And Joe Carter. We love Joe Carter, longtime colleague of ours at TGC. And he and I, he was working on a piece on vaccines. And you and I were both shocked, shocked by the negative response that we got to that, which meant that in 2021, I was not shocked. Because I’d experienced that shock in 2019. And as you’re talking about this, and about how surprised we were, we started thinking about all kinds of different things that at one point in government and science had been incontrovertibly truth. And we realized how many of those things turned out to be wrong. And then it just kind of dawned on us of how do we know when it’s different now? That’s where a lot of us are, I’m not. I’m not actually, I’m not a vaccine skeptic myself. I’m very grateful. I see that as in a different world. Maybe this would be evidence of one of the greatest common graces of our lifetime, and how many countless lives have been saved by these vaccines praise God answer to prayer. But it’s because we it comes in the context of a revolution of the infant information age, that makes it difficult for us to know who and what to trust. And that has, you know, led to that has played itself out in churches, where pastors don’t know what to do. And congregations have a built in distrust toward them as leaders and an expectation they will conform to their preconceived notions. And that is just basically a recipe for leadership disaster. And I said there were two sides of it. That’s the side of what’s making this so hard for pastors. What’s making this so hard from the other direction? that, no pastors are perfect. No leader is perfect. If you had any leadership problems or pastoral problems in your congregation going into 2019, and most of us did 220 20 Going into 20. You they were going to be exposed, like a like a, like a magnifying glass times five, in 2020, and then into 2021. So a lot of what we’re dealing with Melissa, is not just because of confusion about masks are vaccines. It’s because of the stress placed on congregations where there were already fractures that have been expanded. And, and I don’t think that’s just churches. I think that’s just about every institution today. And so we need a lot of grace from God. And we need to show a lot of grace toward each other.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, it’s really difficult when you think of all that we expect to pastors. I mean, it. It’s a lot. It’s a lot.

Collin Hansen
I mean, we’re stuck in a situation, Melissa, where we expect a lot from pastors on the one hand, and at the same time, we also expect basic basic decency from them. So you just got from the Mars Hill story where you can’t even expect basic decency, but at the same time to a situation where we expect too much and expertise that they simply can’t have. Yeah, yeah. And that’s No wonder no wonder these things are difficult.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, yeah. It’s tough. Well, your last story, or your top story, sorry, from last year, happened almost a full year ago, happened on January 6, it’s hard to remember. That far. It’s been almost a year since the US Capitol was stormed. And your article you mentioned topics like Christian nationalism, over realized eschatology, and mistaken views of the Covenant as potential reasons for Christians angry responses to the election results. Can you kind of flesh out those three terms for us and kind of how you see them shaping what’s happening with America, what it means to be a Christian in America? How did these terms I mean, some people might not know what it means to be having a Realized eschatology. I told my husband that all the time.

Collin Hansen
I think I think of all places, the Kruger household would be one of those places. I’m just waiting for your kids to use it on you guys. Oh, yeah, I’m sure. That is an over realized eschatology. You need to clean your room. I’m sorry, that isn’t over realize I live in the already. I live in the already not yet. And it is not yet time for me to clean.

Melissa Kruger
I’ll take some pictures. If you saw my son’s room, it’s definitely the not yet.

Collin Hansen
Oh, man, we love you, John. Alright, so. So we, Christian nationalism would be in the same category, I would say as deconstruction as the as a hot button theological issues are terms of 2021 that are nevertheless quite disputed, and used very broadly. And because they’re useful broadly, they’re not necessarily very helpful unless you define what you’re saying. So I keep my definition of Christian nationalism, very clear and simple. And that is the belief that the Old Testament promises to the people of God Israel can be applied to the United States of America today. Okay. That is what I mean by that. Now, that actually does have quite an expanded purview because even before there was a United States of America, there were Puritan notions that did identify the their religious colonies very closely with Old Testament Israel. So this is not something that just emerged, like with Donald Trump in the 2020 election, it is something that is really woven into our DNA in the United States. And even before that, so that’s how I define it. I don’t mean to say that patriotism is bad or loving your country or having no loyalty or serving your country. I think the early church settled that question long ago, Augustine and others with Romans 13, that you can properly bear arms to serve your nation, your country, your people, in obedience to God by keeping the order of the sword of Romans 13. So I don’t have any problem with that. But I would say where things go wrong is when you think the Old Testament promises can be realized by the United States of America. And just I don’t I think theologians have made it very clear that that is not the way the covenants work. In terms of an over realized eschatology, what what I’m referring to there is a sense I get from Christians that the world should be expected to conform to biblical laws and again, especially related to the Old Testament. Now this can range all the way on the one hand from you and I simply saying, We want Roe v Wade to be overturned. Okay, well, I, I don’t think that’s an over realized eschatology that’s just a plain old evil that needs to be redressed. And I pray fervently that God would do that as soon as possible, and that he would end the scourge of abortion in this country. Okay. On the other end, though, is, for example, the rise of a sort of a constellation of beliefs related to things like theonomy, which is an expectation that we should realize communities of faith geographically on earth today, equivalent to the Old Testament, but under the Christian covenant, that’s probably not the best technical definition of theonomy. But it is an expectation that we would realize the law of God in our communities in this place, and in this time, and I would describe that as an overview of eschatology. Because I would say that we should not expect that to happen until Christ comes again. And until then, I think the clear message from First Peter and elsewhere is that we are pilgrims, in exile, wandering through, blessing our neighbors as much as we can, seeking first the kingdom of God. And, and asking Maranatha Jesus Christ come again, quickly. So that’s what I mean by that. And so you do get these mistaken covenants. And you will often hear Americans talk about the country in covenantal terms before God. And I think that’s led to all manner of mistaken expectations and confusion. And I think, one of those manifestations not the only not that not the end all be all, but one of those manifestations was a lot of the anger and most apocalyptic fervor that was demonstrated by some Christians, and the January 6 storming of the Capitol. Mm hmm.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah. And there’s also maybe a misguided, even understanding of law, that there are three types of law and the Old Testament, we have civil ceremonial, and then we have moral law. So even as Christians, yeah, what we’re trying to follow are not the civil laws of Israel, even as believers. Yeah. And we don’t follow the ceremonial laws in the same way we consider those fulfilled in Christ. That’s, well, yeah, we’ll have some bacon and shellfish and things like that, to the moral law of God, which is summed up in the 10 commandments, and we believe the Spirit teaches us how to live that way. It’s different, but it’s, it is a source of theological understanding. And it’s also I think, what we’re putting our hope in, right? There’s just it’s there’s just a temptation to put our hope in a in a kingdom that we can see. And I think it’s easy for us as Americans to put our hope in America, you know, and I mean, all of us face that temptation, oh, what’s happening in that other nation will never happen to me, because I’m safe here. Rather than whatever may happen to me, I’m safe, because I’m a child of the Lord. And He saved me, and in some sense, not safe from physical harm. But I’m safe, that my soul is kept by him. And so we probably have a mistaken sense of where we really placed Our ultimate hope. And, and it’s something for us all to check. I have to check out, you know, and say, Oh, my hope is in the Lord. You know, because we can get pretty wrote, even praying for our meals. Oh, thank you, Lord. But yeah, it’s just like, of course, I have a meal for breakfast, breakfast, lunch, and dinner. And it’s, it’s just something I think we grow, almost because of our plenty. We sometimes forget to put our hope in the Lord. And it’s, it’s a good call for all of us. I’m not sure if we have time for these, but just do it. Just do it. Let’s do two here. Two totally different things. I want to hear your thoughts about the metaverse. What on earth is it? Oh, and i but also want to ask you about Afghanistan and really on Afghanistan. I just don’t I want to say I want us to talk about just for a moment so that we remind people to pray that it’s still going on in that country. You know, we everybody this summer was caught up in what was happening, but it’s really easy as stories fade of the news for them to fade out of our prayers. And so I’d love to hear about these two.

Collin Hansen
I’ll be much I’ll be much quicker on this one. So big change in 2021 was Facebook rebranding as meta I’m sort of a nod toward this emerging metaverse. You’re You’re huge technology, media companies Microsoft alphabet, which is Google, Facebook. Invent now Mehta investing untold sums of money into this virtual reality immersive experience that we, that’s dubbed the metaverse. And I am not an expert on this. And so somebody out there is going to pick this apart. But what I always come back to, is the closest I have seen to this depicted would be years ago in the novel Earnest by Ernest Cline of Ready Player One, as men, the Steven Spielberg movie as well. So yeah, we’re talking I mean, there’s, there’s virtual reality, there’s 3d, there’s all those kinds of things right now. But we’re talking about fully immersive worlds, essentially, that, that, that are well depicted, I think, in those forms of media. And so the reason I brought this in my top 10 theology stories is because of the implications you’re going to have for church. Because in the shift toward online church, there’s clearly going to be a shift. And Facebook, by the way, is explicitly working with churches, on a lot of these online experiences. And so we’re gonna, we’re going to go straight from the live stream. And I think that’s going to be a blip Melissa on the timeline of history, because we’re going to go straight into Metaverse, churches, where essentially you can through virtual reality, you can sit in and experience a service, you can hear it, you can feel it to a certain extent, with haptic feedback, you can sort of feel as though you’re going to church, even if you never get up from your couch. So that’s going to have some tremendous implications for Christians, when it comes to an incarnational. Religion, a sensory religion, this is my body broken for you do this in remembrance of me, this is my blood of the covenant poured out for the forgiveness of sins, drink this, you know, in remembrance of me. Not only, as you mentioned earlier, the waters of baptism, there are going to be some profound theological implications to how we engage us. And I mentioned in my top 10 theology stories that I listed this as number 10, we might look back in a decade and see that that was the number one issue. So

Melissa Kruger
I picture drones delivering communion to your home. Like they’re sitting in the pews.

Collin Hansen
I mean, just that might be it. Yeah. And of course, one of the things you see in, you know, in the metaverse depiction, at least a Ready Player One, and I know that’s not a perfect illusion, but it gives people a way of being able to visualize it is that you can adopt different identities, you can adapt different bodies. And so you can see why this is such an appealing escape for people because it’s a way of overcoming in a quasi Gnostic sense the constraints of our physical bodies. And so at a time of pandemic, when we’ve all been told that we should be afraid of contact with one another, you can see why these things have accelerated so much. And so I’m thankful Melissa, like us started off this, this conversation talking about the blessing of being together. But I think some people are looking forward to a time when they don’t really have to be together with anybody almost at all, at least in an unmediated way through a different online projection of themselves. So that’s, that’s so we’re in Afghanistan is, um, you know, it’s just a one of the exercises with the top 10 theology stories every year that I inflict upon myself, it makes me go back and think about the things that have already long since departed, the regular news. And you make a good point, Melissa, that we’re not talking about this anymore, but it’s not over. We still have believers who are expecting any moment that they could be killed or jailed. We still have people trying desperately to escape but not knowing how to how to get out, we still have just the general degradation of Taliban rule that we that we lament because of just the suffering that it means for these people. The cost of blood and treasure over the last 20 years that have yielded so little lasting fruit, for all those efforts that Americans and others had devoted into trying to make it a more safe and secure place. It’s just it’s just one of the when you when you look about Back in history, that will clearly be one of those scenes that probably all of us will struggle to get out of our heads was the desperation, desperate crush of people, knowing the consequences of being left behind, and also a sense of betrayal that the people who promised to take care of them. Were not going to do so and actually really didn’t feel that much remorse for not doing it. Yeah, I guess a lot of what was just was just painful there. And so it may not be in the news anymore. But But God’s still sees, he still cares. And he still loves and he certainly welcomes us to intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters. They’re not to mention simply, everybody they’re made in the image of God.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, yeah, my daughter has had the opportunity to travel to some military bases, where some of the families who have come over are stationed. And she’s she’s been playing predominantly soccer with little kids just welcoming them. Yeah. And there’s language barriers, but everybody, yeah, it’s funny, these kids remember her. And her name is easy, because it’s Emma, you know, anybody can say that pretty much. And they run up to her and say, Emma, Emma, Emma, and she, but she told me what so sad, like, some of these kids are here alone, um, their parents could only get them on the plane. And I think of that as a mother. And when I know that the thought of stain is so bad that I’m willing to put my child on a plane, you know, away from my husband and me like that, that tells you the desperation that people are feeling. So I think I think we also have an opportunity, hopefully, for people who are here, now that there’s hopefully now for the first time, I can hear the Gospel for some of them. Amen. Amen. Translate resources, and things like that. We’re actually trying to do some of that I know behind the scenes at TGC, which is really exciting. I’ve talked to Hierro, who’s over our international things about some of that. Well, so we do ask, even now, if you say a prayer for Afghanistan, people who are desperate to get out, we can all continue to do that. We both have continued to do podcasts this year ago. And you have interviewed 33 people this year. Are there any interviews that stood out to you that you might say, hey, go back and listen to this one, or any interviews that are upcoming that you’re really excited about in the coming year.

Collin Hansen
I mentioned three, one of them was with Andy Crouch, and it was on the one year anniversary of COVID. If you did not listen to that one, please go back and listen to that one. And he was correct about what was going to happen at the very beginning of COVID, march 2020, in United States. And so far, what he told me in March of 2021, has borne out the rest of 2021. He had mentioned that the historical models show that the pandemic is followed by economic, basically a burst in consumerism, and a decrease of religiosity. And I would say that’s exactly what we’re seeing right now play out there as well. So listen for just the the Godly wisdom that you get from Andy Crouch in that, that episode, I just want to give a shout out to the president Marty Shapiro of my alma mater, Northwestern, as well as my old professor, Saul Morrison, they did an interview with me about their book on the new fundamentalisms and how they divide us. And one of the great traits was hearing Marty Shapiro talk about other episodes of gospel bound and how he listened to the podcast. And he’s, he’s Jewish. And just like, wow, okay. And I was startled on a podcast. He’s like, Yeah, that’s right. Bet you didn’t think I was a listener. Collin. Done. It’s true. I did not think and then I had the privilege of being published in the New York Times and in August, about I think that was an August Yeah, about the church and about physical presence in church. And sure enough, he wrote me about that as well. And just congratulated me on that article and said he really appreciated it. So that was a fun memory from 2021. And then, you know, oddly enough, this is one that just came out. Interview with Ryan burns about the rise of the nuns, those people who claim no religious affiliation. You never know, Melissa, I mean, when you’re doing let’s talk, you guys have chemistry, you have rapport with each other, you have friendship. And so you know, you have consistency there. When I’m doing interviews, you really never know what you’re going to get with an interview there. With Ryan Burj I got a lot more than I anticipated. I would just describe that thing as rollicking and works out really well when I’m when I end up debating the person that I’m talking with because normally I’m pretty passive but sometimes we get into an area that I know a little bit about. And in this area of sociology and statistical method and post Christianity and apologetics and evangelism, that’s just really my my bailiwick at, at gospel bound. And so he and I just got into a really fun discussion, debate about politics and history and, and all the different contributing factors to the largest transformation of religion in American history, which we’re in the midst of right now. So check out that interview with Ryan Berge. And I’ll just give a little preview and I love doing this, Melissa, because other than my interview with Tom Nelson, I haven’t even invited anybody else yet. So if you’re listening out there, these are the people you can look forward to being viewed. Isaac Adams, Gavin ortlund, Sandra McCracken, George Yancey, John Tyson, Michael Horton, just a few of the folks whose books that I’m hoping to read over the Christmas. Is it a break? Is that what it is when you have three young kids? Is that what it’s called? Melissa, Christmas break?

Melissa Kruger
Well, we just call it vacation relocation. That’s at least I don’t know what you call Christmas break? I don’t know.

Collin Hansen
Well, well, let’s let’s talk about let’s talk, Melissa. I’m really eager. You guys have another season already in the cache, as we say ready to roll in early 2022. That’s the plan.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, it’s coming out the last week of January is when we’re going to be it should come out then Lord willing, and we are talking about lots of different topics. I mean, and none of them were easy. Every time we sat down to talk for like, wow, this is a tough one, too.

Collin Hansen
We blame Betsy for that.

Melissa Kruger
We all agreed to it. So

Collin Hansen
She does amazing work. We love you, Betsy. Thank you.

Melissa Kruger
But we talk about work. We talk about shame. We actually talk about obedience, the law, something that we just got into a minute ago. And we talk about how to talk about race we talk about when others fall away, deconstruction, apostasy, all of that. Idolatry, spotting false teachers, a lot of the topics that are in your top 10, actually and then. So so it’s really, it’s always a joy to sit down with jasmine and Jackie, and they were both pregnant at the time. And I was still not. And so I am going to continue that trend. Thinking keep having babies, but I think I’m embarrassed because I’m so exhausted at the end of the day. And they’re both, you know, carrying these children and they stuck with it for all of our days. So we had a great time. Had a great time talking. That’s great. Well, every year at the end of the year, we do a couple of different book review type things. Yeah. So Ivan is always in charge of keeping us organized. He does an amazing job. I wish everybody could know what happens behind the scenes to do this Book Awards. It is a multi month process.

Collin Hansen
Ivan Mesa hero thing?

Melissa Kruger
Yes. Yes, it is. It is it involves a lot of people and a lot of organization Ivan does that. He also always puts together a list that I love to read because our fellow editors at TDC are some of my favorite book, advice givers. I always love to see oh, what’s Conrad this year? What? What 800 page book is Khan read this year that I

Collin Hansen
Melissa and I are book buddies. I think we probably said this last year were book buddies, we have a lot of overlap in our reading.

Melissa Kruger
I know. I know. I was, of course, because I was telling Collin, I’m reading this book on Peter the Great. And you guys, I’ve read that book. Of course. Who else has read?

Collin Hansen
Right there on my shelf. I was even looking at it at the time was like, Wait, this book? I mean, how many other books are there?

Melissa Kruger
But let me ask you, that was not the book. I will say it has impacted me this year. That’s the book I’ve been struggling through for a long time to torture myself. But is there a book this past year that you would say has really kind of impacted how you think about things, made you think differently or just encouraged you in some way?

Collin Hansen
Yes. Whenever I asked this question on gospel bound, I expect people to just give me their first answer, not their political answer, calculated answer. So the easiest one for me is simply the Balmer mafia by Malcolm Gladwell. You will you’ll be done with it by the end of this week. Trust me so. So let me explain this and why it’s made a big difference for me. So first of all, started as a series of podcasts from from his very popular History podcast, so that’s where it started. He expanded that into essentially an audio book and So the whole thing is an audiobook experience. And I think he uses the audiobook medium, closer to its full capacity, meaning you’re hearing directly from the interviews, you’re hearing directly from the people who participated. You’re hearing from Curtis LeMay, talking years later about his bombing strategy in World War Two. And so that’s some, you know, that’s part of the genius of it. But then also from there, you can go to a website and you can do a deeper dive, you can see the documents, you can see the pictures, you can see the different characters that you’ve just gotten to know through this book. And then of course, it’s also a book. So you run the full range there, all the way from revisionist history to then just walk into your bookstore, go to Amazon and get this short little quick book, The bomber mafia, and you can just read it there, if you prefer. And so I would say, of course, I’m a sucker for World War Two stuff. I’m a sucker for Malcolm Gladwell. And then on top of that, also, and I think, since Malcolm Gladwell is self admitted return to Christianity. He really does a lot with Christian ethics. In his books, people may not necessarily agree with that. But there’s a whole Christian ethical dimension to the bump this this bomber mafia, basically, the people who developed strategic bombing strategy for the United States, leading up to World War Two. And I think what we remember about World War Two so much is how it ended the atomic bombs. This is the story that how did bombing start as the humane way to avoid carnage, and ended to our day with the ability to destroy the world with one command as a pretty darn compelling story. And Malcolm Gladwell handles it well, so the bomber mafia, I’m Malcolm Gladwell, you can listen to it on revisionist history, buy the book, you know, or you do what I do you download all your audio books for free through your local library. Thanks to

Melissa Kruger
That’s a plug for the library. I know I put everything in, I still get the real books, but I put everything into the library. And then it just, I get the notice that it’s ready for me. It’s great.

Collin Hansen
Well, what about you, Melissa, what’s your book that stood out this year? Yeah, yeah,

Melissa Kruger
It’s one I just finished. It’s and I kind of I don’t I think it was sent to me, I can’t even remember. But it’s Sharon James, how Christianity changed the world. And it was kind of it was a surprise, encouragement to me, because I think we’ve, you know, listened to Mars Hill. And we’ve seen a lot of people deconstructing, and sometimes in maybe negative ways. It can be a discouragement on is Christianity just a big mess. And so this book is really extremely readable. I mean, Rodney Stark has done a lot of work in this area. He has the book, the triumph of Christianity, it’s, you know, big, thick book, this is a really thin book. But so encouraging. She traces basically the notion of where the gospel has gone, how life has improved in the areas of health care, human dignity, justice, women, education, and it’s just a really beautiful look at God’s people. I think we can be so discouraged, sometimes we look around us when we look at our own hearts, and we say, ah, you know, is are we any different than our neighbor? Yeah, it can be a little little discouraging. And so to see, wow, Christians really have gone out into the world, and they have made massive impacts in ways that you wouldn’t even even know. I mean, the last one I read was about McCormick who, yeah, McCormick spices, and things like that. But his goal was to help end hunger and he was a Christian. And so he developed a lot of the methods of preserving food to help end hunger but you know, it’s just, it’s these really encouraging stories of a lot of people have never heard it before. And so it’s a beautiful one was that book published? I think it was just published in either 2021 earlier in 2021, or 2020. There’s

Collin Hansen
gonna I gotta go check that out. Sounds like sounds like a similar to Tom Holland’s book dominion, which is one of the one of my best reads from the year before. Yeah, one of those long books, but that would be I’m gonna add this to my list. You might have just added a new gospel bound. Yeah. It was a very James, if you’re listening.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah. You’re invited.

Collin Hansen
You’re invited. Good to have you on. Well, I mean, I mean, I love hearing that again. I could talk about books with you forever, Melissa, but, but we don’t have time because you’ve got TGCW22. Our women’s conference coming this summer. Tell us a little bit about what you’re looking forward to with our women’s conference in June.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, I’m super excited. We are talking about the theme. Remember joy, looking at Old Testament salvation stories. And I’m hoping that it will be one of those conferences where we really study the Old Testament in light of the new and see the beautiful continuity of Scripture. And for me, as Courtney, now we’re working on the Bible study that goes with it, it was just one of those times I’d call her up. And I’d be like, I mean, there is so clearly one author to this book, because the Yeah, you can’t you can’t have this written by Moses. And then this Yeah, so clearly related by John. And so it’s pretty it’s it’s been a fun thing to study. But I’m really excited to study it together with women. And then we have over 50 breakout sessions on a ton of different topics. We have auxilary events. And always love this time together. It’s, it’s amazing to me how many women we have gathered together, always my high school friends come in, have a mom come in, my daughter’s come in. And it’s pretty sweet. My daughter came with a group of six or college friends. And they looked at me the last line of the last conference, and they were all gathered in my hotel room. And they said, this has been the best weekend of our lives. I was like, Oh, you got a lot of good things coming your way. But it was so encouraging to hear just how much they love being there. And so you

Collin Hansen
You know what that’s like Melissa, the first time you’re able to experience an event like that. I mean, you and I will talk often about when we met at the 2012 Women’s Conference and how that changed the trajectory of both of our lives. And it’s a joy for us to look back and remember, an unknown not author named Jen Wilkin, back in 2012. And Melissa Kruger, who never would have approached an editor about writing and then ends up running the whole thing. Just a few short years later. And so, yeah, I mean, God, God meets us in those places. And that’s why we That’s why you work so hard on a most

Melissa Kruger
I’m hoping there’s someone who’s going to come to this one and we’ll be running it and I’m looking for

Collin Hansen
We’re on the lookout, you just just sign up you might get a job.

Melissa Kruger
We also have TGC21. Women can come. We want women to come it’s not the men’s conference.

Collin Hansen
About 30% percent typically who come to our national conference are women. So please do.

Melissa Kruger
Can you give us any? Any spoiler information?

Collin Hansen
Look, Melissa, folks have been on this podcast with us for more than an hour. So we got to give the people something. We got to give them something after this. So this is your this is your little throwback to the metaverse throwback to Ernest Cline’s already, player one, this is your Easter egg. Okay, so I’ll just go ahead and I’ll share with you some inside info on TGC 23. I think it’s important actually, Melissa, that we tell people about this because one of the major themes of 2021 was the 2022 will bring the last together for the gospel conference, you and I both participated spoken there before, and that we’re gonna miss that conference. And as people will know, on the off years, TGC will be in April, and then T4G will be in April and so on the on the other years. And I think that people might be wondering, well, maybe TGC won’t be coming back? Well, I’m here to say we are coming back in 2023. But we’re not coming back in April, we’re gonna come back in September. So that is primarily due to the fact that so many conferences were postponed in 2020, that the calendar has been pushed back years ahead. And so we’re going to try something different. This time, we’re going to meet September 25 to 27. In 2023. We’re going to meet Lord willing, again, in Indianapolis. I’m not saying that’s going to be our permanent home. But it has been a good home to us. And so we look forward to being back there in 2023. You’re going to hear in 2023, Lord willing some major announcements about the direction of TGC in the future. But we can we can we can reasonably expect at this point that what you’re going to be seeing from our national conference going forward is a perspective on the good news of Jesus Christ for all the world and for all of life. And so look for more details about a more globally focused national conference. We’re not even going to think I call it a national conference but with a with a more global lineup of speakers with a broader array of exhibitors and and offerings in our breakout sessions, from all kinds of different ministries and publishers and seminaries that you love, and that’s what we’re going to be working, we need your prayers, we’re going to be working really hard on that in 2022. And building toward these exciting initiatives in 2023. So, hope to see you back in India in September and look for some information by September of 2022. At least that’s what we’re hoping to announce a year ahead of time for our 2023 event. So yeah, I mean, you can just get a sense here, we’ve been talking for more than an hour. There’s just always, always a lot going on at TGC.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, and I think one thing that a lot of people don’t know, is, what, how much of an international organization TGC is, and we’re constantly doing work well beyond the states. Can you tell us a little bit really quickly about some of our lesser known work that we were working on last year, getting getting the gospel into places that it might not be able to reach by us actually physically going?

Collin Hansen
Yeah, I think it’s, it’s reasonable for people to expect what what do you guys do with all your time, I mean, I have a hard time, I have a hard time explaining my job sometimes to people. And, and I would say that when, when somebody supports TGC, when they make an investment in our ministry, when they want to help this work, flourish. Hopefully, they’re doing a lot of things to build up the church. But one of the key things that we try to accomplish is to use the the large and expansive global internet platform that God has given us to be able to provide what we describe as hope for the searching. And people are out there all the time, people we we have no idea about are just they’ve got questions. And naturally, when they got questions, they turn to the internet, and they turn to the internet, the main places that they are going to get answers from about Christianity right now are from Mormons, and from Jehovah’s Witnesses. And we don’t think that’s okay. The Gospel coalition, we don’t think that’s okay. We want to use the algorithms to the greatest wisdom and discernment that we have to provide hope for the search. And that will guide people into historic biblical orthodoxy. And so toward that, and we’ve produced a number of what we would call an evergreen type resource. It’s just as true today as it’s going to be in 10 years or 20 years or Well, beyond that. Were their essays on on theological topics. There. They are commentaries on books of the Bible, they’re simple answers to common questions that people type into the search bars, it’s ranging all the way to things of Christian parents looking for help to deal with transgender identities with their kids with their kids, friends, or their school district. And Melissa, you know, that’s not the kind of stuff that people normally notice from the gospel coalition, because they might not be those people searching for those answers. But that’s the the 10s of millions of people who visit our site, on an annual basis, that’s, that’s where a lot of those people are. And so it’s not the kind of stuff that gets the attention. But for those people who are wondering about, you know, why do I support TGC? Or why should I support TGC? What’s that gonna do? That’s how we, that’s how we use those resources. So I know, Melissa, a lot of your work as well as behind the scenes. I mean, it’s wonderful when you can stand in front of 10,000 plus women at a women’s conference and welcome them to Indianapolis and to into a weekend of worship through song and, and, and fellowship and through the word, but you’re always doing a lot of stuff behind the scenes. So what are you excited about behind the scenes?

Melissa Kruger
Absolutely. I think one of the things I’ve been most excited about this year, we’ve done some women’s ministry leadership cohorts, and these were on Zoom. That’s one thing COVID taught us how to do extremely well. And but it opened up some opportunities that we hadn’t really taken hold up before. And so it was a wonderful way to help support the local church by really just getting women together and connecting through zoom. So, you know, a lot of women’s ministry leaders and I know a lot of pastors feel this as well. Might be having troubles in their church that they can talk to no one in their church or really even their city about because it’s not it’s maybe not a wise thing to do. But this allows those opportunities for them to pray what together to think through ways to organize their ministry. and do some things behind the scenes. And so it was just the way we wanted to try to help women in the local church and what they’re doing and support them. But I think I’m always encouraged. I don’t know if you feel this way. I know TGC sometimes is really known for, you know, the article that blows up the internet tomorrow about whatever hot topic and hopefully it’s seen as a place to come and get a good book review and, and things like that. But I’m so thankful for some of the work that is done in the hidden, hidden places. And actually, that we’re much more concerned with articles that will bless and resource the church that we are with the one that gets 100,000 page views tomorrow or whatever. But those are the ones we’re seeking to faithfully keep producing to that someone and in a lot of them are translated into other languages. And a lot of the things that blow up here really don’t relate in other cultures. And so it’s wonderful to see the way those go go forward.

Collin Hansen
Well, it’s it’s our privilege to do this work. And we’re able to do this work because God gives us that, that that honor to be able to serve Him in this way. And we never take that for granted. And we’re able to do this work because of listeners of gospel bound and listeners of Let’s Talk. And we know because we hear from you guys, about this, you you give us such encouraging feedback about the ways the Lord has, has used something that you’ve learned. And that’s one of the things I love about gospel bound is I can just give all these book recommendations to people just say it’s not my wisdom, it’s just I’m just trying to help orient you toward some some other people that God’s using to do this. And so that’s really a good way of explaining what we get to do is we get to introduce to the church people God has gifted to be able to teach and to lead and to guide and to help. And so we’d love for you anybody listening here, your friends, your family, love for you to partner with us in the support of this work. And there’s a few ways that you can join us here. First way you can do that it’s become a monthly giver to TGC go to tgc.org/give tgc.org/give. We, we want to give an offer to everybody here who’s listening, you’ve stuck with us for this long. You sign up, you give $25 a month, we’ll send you copies of my book with Sarah Zanskar from 2021 gospel bound also give you Melissa’s book from 2020 growing together, and mentoring something that Melissa has not only writes eloquently about, but he himself has modeled lives what she teaches there. So sign up to give TGC $25 A month help us to advance this work that we’re talking about providing hope for the searching, you know, recognizing that search bar is a spiritual battleground that we want to take captive for Christ. So help us do that $25 A month we’ll send you copies of gospel bound and growing together to help encourage you about what God’s doing around the world, in his church, and how you can help raise up the next generation. Of course, we’ll take a one time gift we’re grateful for you to give a one time gift and just say thank you for for these podcasts and other things we’re able to do because of your generous support. And also, just whether you give $25 a month or you give a one time gift. You can also support our podcasts and help other people to discover what we’re doing with gospel bound. And let’s talk simply by subscribing leave a rating, leave a review. That’s tremendously valuable for us. It helps others who are searching for hope to find gospel centered resources like we share on gospel bound and let’s talk so yeah, thanks everybody for sticking with us on this podcast but also especially for listening all year. And for your your faithful support that allows us to be able to work do this work with joy?

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, it is really a joy. And we do want to say thank you. I mean it means so much and we just want to keep doing more so we thank you for for your support. I have one last question calm. We can wrap this up for everybody out there ready to go in traffic somewhere so you have something to listen to you.

Collin Hansen
We’ve been washing dishes Yeah, this is working out

Melissa Kruger
On let’s talk we always do a favorite thing. So my question for you and this will be I’m intrigued by this. What’s a favorite Christmas gift? You’re excited about giving this?

Collin Hansen
Love that question. And you know works Melissa, you’re you’re a parent and Christmas shifts from any expectation of excitement about what you’re going to get to of course the excitement that you’re excited to share and who was it but our Lord Himself who told us it was better to give than to receive. What I’m excited about this year is actually amazing. My son. All right, my, my six battery seven year old son already opened, because it came in an Amazon box. And he just went ahead and opened it and didn’t realize actually didn’t come an Amazon box. They just came in a box. He’s like, Oh, okay. Well it is. I grew up playing with Castle Legos. And it was a great time in the 80s and 90s, producing a lot of those wonderful sets, putting them together playing with them having these big battles. Well, they’ve just done a return Castle Lego set that has like one special issue Castle Lego set this year. And it’s also fun because I got to go to Copenhagen. Denmark, of course, is the headquarters of Lego. And so it was able to get him a get him one of these castles and I know that he’s excited to put it together. And he usually he’s young enough where he needs a little bit of my help with that. But I’m excited to be able to give that

Melissa Kruger
As for your future before you Lego Land trips. hundreds of dollars going.

Collin Hansen
You may have a son who I anticipate probably expect probably was into that. Given his extraordinary engineering aptitude.

Melissa Kruger
Brilliant for kids, it teaches them. Let me just say what you see right now. And those LEGO sets will one day become Ikea furniture that they can put together for you because they just follow this same instructions. I’m looking forward. I’m giving my daughter I’m going old school. I’m giving my youngest daughter thankfully, she will not listen to this. A record player and different records. So let me tell you this had no idea how expensive vinyl records are. I didn’t get it. The Hamilton vinyl record is like 60 some dollars for that. But I did find some that were affordable. So I’m super excited to do that.

Collin Hansen
Well, very, very good. I love it. I love it. Well, I think probably should wrap up here. So we’ll wrap up it just thank you everybody. I hope you’re looking forward to giving and also receiving this Christmas. Thanks for listening to gospel bound. And let’s talk thanks for encouraging us. It really does mean encouraging us with your comments over email and in person especially we get to see you at the events. Help others to find these podcasts by rating and reviewing them sign up to become a monthly donor of $25 or more to TGC love to send you those two books, gospel bound and growing together as a thank you just go to tdc.org/give Merry Christmas, everybody. Happy New Year. We look forward to joining you next year again. Melissa will restart end of January looks like I’ll be starting sometime around then maybe early February. We’ll see. It’s got that one episode recorded. We’ve got some more reading to do. Get pray for my reading there in that but we look forward to joining you again next year. Whether you’re washing dishes commuting, working out, however you enjoy listening to your podcasts. Thanks. Thanks, Melissa.

Melissa Kruger
Merry Christmas.