Sing with Getty and Other Greats in This New Hymnal

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[00:00:00] Keith Getty: There is a terrible theology of what worship and singing now is in the church that is far closer linked to to, to sales and marketing and to, and to, and to therapy than it is to, to holy worship. And so we need to get a clear theology of what we’re doing.

[00:00:28] Collin Hansen: Music and family have always been. Connected for me. My grandfather taught me the Christian faith largely through our Welsh heritage of singing, and shortly before he died, our family gathered around the piano as my mother played. And we sang many of his favorites from the Methodist hymnal. And every night now with my own family, we open up the hymnal and sing some of these famous Welsh hymns, including guide Meo Thou Great Jehovah and his great message ism.

The great method, exactly. The great Methodist Tim, writer Charles Wesley wrote, uh, Jesus Lover of My Soul commonly set to a Welsh tune, AEST with, and now if you’re a fan of the TV show, the Crown, you’ll actually recognize that song from the really moving episode, Aber fan. So you can see that I’m really partial to the old hymns, but unfortunately we’ve pretty much worn out the binding on my old Methodist hymn Nolan, when I’m singing with my family.

We also wanna include some newer songs that, that we all sing together in church. Songs that have played such a big role in my own generation’s. Faith songs like In Christ Alone. Speak oh Lord. And the Lord is my salvation. All written by Keith Getty. In their introduction, Keith and his wife Kristen Wright.

Hymns are the heart language of the church. Used to sing truth to the Lord and to one another in every season of the soul. This has always been the way our hymns hold us, inspire us. Comfort us and form us. Now, you know Keith Geddy, a songwriter of some of your most beloved songs, a choir director, a musician, a movement leader.

Hopefully you’ve sung with Keith and Kristen at one of several TGC national conferences, and he joins me on gospel bound now to discuss changes in church music, liturgy, and the legacy of the hymnal. Keith. Welcome to Gospel Bound Colin. It’s an honor

[00:02:17] Keith Getty: to be here and it’s great to see you again and talking about your Welsh hymn.

Heritage is quite, quite moving as well. It’s good to hear. Good. I’m glad to hear that the,

[00:02:24] Collin Hansen: um, I’ll press into that a little bit more here.

[00:02:26] Keith Getty: Yeah. They sing that Come guide me with that. Great. Jehovah will never mean always with mixed emotions for me. ’cause the, the Welch. Sing it to ku, their tune, they sing that at the rugby matches when they’re beating, when they’re winning, beating Ireland.

And, uh, as we, as we’ve beaten them in seven of the last eight years. You know, I, I haven’t had to listen to it too much. Thank you. You gotta rub it in. But it does have, but it does have, it does have very mixed emotions if you’re a hot blooded Irish, Irish, Irish rugby and, and him lover.

[00:02:54] Collin Hansen: Well, that, that’s part of my point, is that.

As I didn’t realize this until I was growing up, of how ingrained that that tradition of him singing and singing in general is. Within that culture in particular to the point of it being a kind of national call, um, in what they’re doing today?

[00:03:14] Keith Getty: The Welch, the Welch, probably the most of the four home nations.

But I mean, it’s an interesting stat for example, that I think American churches for the most part sing about one in every six songs they sing in church are noy hams. Whereas in Britain on a Sunday we’ve got the BBC television have the show songs of Praise, which has been going since just the end of the second World War.

And that song has more view, has three times as many viewers on Sunday than people go to go to church. Wow, wow. So, so hymns, SIM Hys is three times the attraction that church has on a Sunday in Britain Church has six times the attraction that hymns have in America. So it’s, there is definitely a, there is definitely very, a unique, interesting,

[00:03:48] Collin Hansen: uh, you know, cultural difference.

But often better theology in the hymns. Not always. It’s one of the problems Why, why I use the older Methodist hymn than the newer Methodist hymn.

[00:03:59] Keith Getty: No, and that’s right. But there’s a serious point with that because you know, the very first, you, you back to Deuteronomy where the first hymns in scripture come and it, you know, it says, uh, you te teach this to the children that are, it’s a witness against them.

Less they turn away. In other words. From the very beginning of scriptures, hymns are never less than instructional. Yeah. So what you have your children singing, listening to on their, on their phones or what you choose to sing in Sunday school or in church or in youth group or in home group, can never be less than instructional.

So it really is, it really is a pastoral, it really is a huge pastoral responsibility for any pastor or for any parent.

[00:04:36] Collin Hansen: Yeah. Well, and that’s. One of the things I often say about family devotions and why I use a hymnal is that it connects my children to something that’s bigger and broader and longer than themselves.

They see themselves as part of a bigger story, these themselves as part of a, a legacy, a family of faith, and I think that’s something that’s. Been lost in a lot of contemporary churches and in the loss of, of home worship. But it’s something that I think you guys are making a, a huge contribution to. And I, I mean, I, I’m so excited about this ’cause my family, my family, devotions consist of.

The the New City Catechism, which is a crossway project that I worked closely with, with Tim Keller on. Then we work through the, we work through, uh, the biggest Story and those videos with Kevin De Young, another Crossway project. And then we go over the piano and now we have the Sing Hymnal Wonderful, uh, Crossway project there as well.

And I wanna read something, Keith, from your introduction, uh, something that you and Kristen w write, it’s so important. You say, some of the earliest memories either of us can remember are of singing with others At church, the accompaniment begins songbook pages, Russell, and that first shared breath is drawn as old and young.

Step into a hymn Together, we’re so grateful to have been raised in homes where singing to the Lord is a part of God’s family was the most natural and fitting thing in the world. Treasures the highest expression of the creator’s gift of music. It is too risky for us to assume that deep belief in the truth of God will flow with ease to the next generation.

That depth must always be mind and cherished and taught as just beautiful, profound, poignant. Keith, just tell us a little bit more about how the symbol came about, your vision for it.

[00:06:23] Keith Getty: No, that’s true. It’s, and it’s a huge, it’s been a huge team, team, team effort. Anyone who knows me knows I can, I can barely, you know, I can barely organize how to get downtown for dinner without making a mess of it.

And so, you know, it really, when you, when you have that limited organizational ability, it should always be acknowledged that. It’s a project with many, many people, uh, John Martin and the Getty Music team, um, joy Dennis and the Crossway team, you know, all, all hugely part of it. So I, um, but I, I think it was a number of things.

I think the, the, probably the two biggest convictions were that, that everybody today needs to be singing more of the hymns that have lasted. And number two, that every person in leadership today needs to be curating what is, and so. Even for those, whether you’re coming to the sing conference to do the hymnal, whether you’re picking up the hymnal, that’s our two prayers.

That’s the two ways I think we can really we that, that, that, that we can really help make a significant shift. The pastoral health, um, of the next generation and, and the church broadly. Um, you know, it’s, it’s interesting if I could go back, you know, I’m so thankful for the opportunities I’ve had in the last 25 years, but if I could go back and do it all again, I, I think I would’ve prioritized things a little bit different.

Back in 18 before, before Packer and I had the whole link between. Hy, I, I have to do the last interview of his life. And he talked for almost four hours on worship. Now, that doesn’t necessarily mean need a lot of content because he talked very, very slowly by that point. But one of the things, one of the things he said was, I, I, I think, um, I think we need.

Three old hymns for every new thing hymn, I says, I think, I think given, given the pastoral value, that knowing a hymn that you will sing for 50 years has, as opposed to knowing a song that you’ll sing for maximum five years. Given the difference in that, I can’t see a logic. That says we should be singing any more than one for every three old hymn.

I mean, CS Lewis of course, famously said it. Yeah. So we read one book for every one old book, and the book of Jeremiah reminds us about the old Tron paths. And so I think from the start, obviously when we got involved in 2000, there was such a buzz. Around modern worship music and we, we were kind of just desperate if we don’t get some new songs out there that are saying something.

Yeah. You know, there the battle, the battle for truth. The battle for even just gospel sanctification was being spectacularly lost and what was being sung in churches and the confusion amongst leaders and the inus to have any kind of. A bigger, bigger vision or defense, even defensive response was nowhere.

And so we, we were, we were very obsessed. We were trying to write a few decent songs, but, uh, but I think I would’ve tried to sooner encourage people to sing the great hymns that we know will last. Obviously we hope some of ours might last for a while, but sure there really isn’t a whole lot of evidence, you know, unless we can go forward in a time machine to know that.

Um, so that’s the first thing. And then I think the second. The second thing is that that, that I think the curation of our worship services. I think if Martin Luther could come back today, I think if Saint Augustine could come back today, the curation of the worship service would be their, a bigger concern for them even, even than preaching simply because, um, you know, most of church history was, was built largely in the Psalms and when it wasn’t, it was built on lit, lit liturgical services, localized singing, um, um.

Or, or, or, or then of course post Gutenberg print and press and, and, and Martin Luther was the hymnals. And, uh, in a new world where you’ve over 300,000 songs in the CCLI songbook and most pastors, most pastors kind of turning a blind eye or washing their hands of what’s being sung in their churches, or at least having a vision of what’s being sung on their church is that then works its way down.

I think, I think we’re in a real, we’re some, we’re, we’re, we’re reaching a lot of very dangerous grind. And uh, and uh, so I think that’s the two goals. If and if the hymnal can do that, if the hymnal can do that by introduc some great hymns and by creating a form of curation, then we are thrilled. But secondly, even if it doesn’t do that, if it raises the issue of the great hymns that we sing and church leaders and family leaders saying, here are the hymns we want our people to grow old with, then I think, I think that’s an important thing.

[00:10:38] Collin Hansen: I find it interesting, Keith, that a, a classic hymn doesn’t sound to me today out of fashion. It sounds actually kind of timeless and classic, whereas sometimes the contemporary music can feel very dated, like I say. Oh, that really sounds like this particular point in time. Is that, does that fit into your vision at all as well of just singing songs that you know are gonna last and are not gonna feel like.

Oh, that belongs to like, I can. I can smell what that song sounds like. I can see it ’cause I can see the clothes that people were wearing.

[00:11:18] Keith Getty: Is that part of the

[00:11:18] Collin Hansen: vision too?

[00:11:18] Keith Getty: I think certainly being able to sing a song that you can live with for 50 years. An obvious illustration being Irish is to take. My vision, which is, which is probably the oldest Irish hymn.

Um, for no other reason than at least he was inspired by St. Patrick’s breast play. But it doesn’t

[00:11:35] Collin Hansen: sound old is my point. Yeah, that’s right. It doesn’t sound old. It sounds classic.

[00:11:39] Keith Getty: It sounds timeless. And then, and then when you’re talking to the pastors, pastors who listening to this con conversation, parents and grandparents who are listening to this conversation, you think about Be them, my vision.

Then you think about your grandchildren or your, your people and say, be them. My wisdom. Then you think about temptation and I think of my children going to college and I think be thy my breasts plate sword for the fight. And then I think of my kids going off and however life treats them. And I, and they’ll, they’ll all have different levels of successes.

And I think if riches a heed knot nor man’s empty praise, thy might inheritance. So then of course, the fact that all of us. Death and tax has come on all of us. And so hiking of Heaven after Victory One, there is a song that speaks to my whole life for my whole life and gives me, gives me language, gives me a s song, grammar.

That will actually affect my prayer life and my thinking and my actions and my reactions. So yeah, that, that is, that is, that is why it is so important. And that’s why kind of doing tool pastors who do tools down and let them sing the modern songs in their churches are, are crippling their congregations by their cowardice and their inaction and they’re in action.

And, uh, and, uh, the, the, the modern worship music is. I mean, at a general level is trying to write songs that sound relevant to the music of the moment, which means by logical deduction, ask Cs, Lewis Tolkien or anybody else, um, in 10 years to, they will not sound logical. You don’t need to ask CS Lewis Token, you can ask anyone of your kids.

You know, they, ’cause they, they’re not listening to stuff that was written 10 years ago. And so that’s the thing. And, and perhaps, uh, women without even the, even. In, in contemporary Christian music, you’re, you’re, you’re basically building a significant, a significantly sized industry, which is best in Christian radio, which is trying to reach.

Two very specific people who are at very specific times in their lives, in two minutes 54, with something that makes them feel good in drive time. That’s, that’s the business. And there’s nothing wrong with that business that that’s, that’s a perfectly legitimate, and largely, I would say probably more wholesome than not wholesome, uh, thing to have.

But it’s, it’s, it shouldn’t be what’s deciding our Sunday worship. It shouldn’t be the thing that is governing how people understand God, how they understand sin, how they understand. Uh, forgiveness, how they understand how we interact with ourselves, our families, our, our churches, our communities, and a lost world.

That, that, that, that, that needs the few minutes that we have left in this earth, um, to, to serve Christ in his gospel and his kingdom.

[00:14:17] Collin Hansen: Charles Wesley wrote maybe as many as 9,000 different hymns, we’re not quite sure. You wrote a lot. He was pretty good. It was pretty good. But I think what’s interesting is that he’s not good because of the volume.

He’s good because of the few songs Yeah. That endured. Yeah. And they’re absolute. Classics. What makes an excellent hymn? I’m just wondering what criteria did you guys use for choosing the 500 songs in the hymnal? It’s, it’s a different standard because it’s not like a screen where you can just add a new one tomorrow when it becomes popular.

Yeah. And drop it out. Nobody will know you’re locked in, at least just until you do a new, new edition. Yeah. Which obviously you could do.

[00:14:59] Keith Getty: Well, of course, the funny answer to that question is if I knew, if I knew how to make a great hymn, I, I wouldn’t tell you I’d do it myself. Do you know what I mean? But, uh, but the question you’re actually asking is how do you choose the ones that we do?

And here’s the thing, a hymnal is simply a collection. I mean, the psalms is the Bible’s hymnal. You know, that’s the same conferences here. We’re, we’re doing, we’re doing the talks are predictably all on the Psalms, which is the Bible symbol. But a hymnal is just a collection of p songs for a, for a collection.

If I was asked to write a hymnal for urban churches today. I wouldn’t have done this if I was asked to write church to come up for European churches or churches in South America or, or churches for, for expats across Europe. I, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t have chosen these songs. These chongs were chosen for, largely for people who are in the, in the Crossway constituency and, uh, so, so, so you’re, you’re, you’re thinking about, so that, that’s the first thing I would say.

Is it, it, it doesn’t. Each, each context would, would, would, would be at some levels different, but Sure. But broadly, broadly, what we did, we, we, we tried to find, um, about two thirds of the hymnal was hems that have lasted and we hope will last. And there are, sorry, three quarters were sorry. Three quarters of them were, were hems that have lasted are, are valuable.

Are playable in a modern church. I don’t require the beauty, the pure beauty of co music to work. Um, although I’m myself obviously trained that way. Yeah. And then one quarter would be hymns written mostly in this last movement of the last 25 years, which has been an unusual movement of actually what we consider pretty good quality hymns.

Um, because each hymnal, whether it’s, whether it’s Juan Williams’ hymnal, whether it’s, um. Whether’s Trinity hymnal, whether it’s, whether it’s Wesley’s, hymnal, wa hymnals, they all came on the back of a movement where there had been a new collection of hymns that weren’t in a hymnal. So in some ways, this hymnal will also be identified by the fact that it’s the first major hymnal to represent this modern movement of hymns, uh, and include them.

Uh, so, but, but largely it’s what are the hymns that I want to grow old with? That’s the first thing. Yeah. And then, and then, but that work in a modern church that, that, that can exist. Obviously, I think it’s better with a choir, but doesn’t have to have a choir because most churches today don’t have a choir.

And then what we did was we ship, we give it a liturgical shape. So we said, let’s look at, let’s look at the, the, the liturgy of the service. The liturgy of the Christian life and the liturgy of the life of Christ or, or the churches, you, however you call it. And so we actually created each of those sections ’cause that helps it with shape a service that helps people shape, have, have language for each part of life, and then help to understand each part of Christ’s life and teachings.

And so we did it that way. We did a couple of things that were a little bit different. We included obviously a lot of Bible passages from the ESV and, and also prayers, liturgies, and quotes, mostly from Christian history. But we also went to so many of the people over the years who’ve contributed. Hy from Tim Keller to John Piper, to John MacArthur, to the more creative end of it.

From, from s Lloyd Jones to to Malcolm Guide and, uh, and, and Kristen, the number of her prayers that she’s sent over the years. So there was. So we tried to give people, I think, I think so much of the battle today isn’t just for what we’re singing in our church, but it’s for how we pray. It’s for how we shape the service.

Um, and just also the, the value of just reading the Bible in our church services, which is so huge. So we started to, and then, and then we, we also tried to do, we tried to do it the back of what we did, a story behind every hymn in the book. So to try and give, make a hymnal with personality that, that people can understand why this hymn was important.

’cause most people, you know, when your parents grew up and got a new hymnal, they presumed to know three quarters of it. But we’re curious what the new ones would be. Most people today will not know three quarters of this hymn. Um, or even why they should have a hymnal. So, so that’s actually a whole new, that’s a whole new culture shift that we’re having to fight against.

’cause most people are going, why would we even have a hymnal? Are there aren the screens now? And, uh, you know, we’ve, we’ve stopped using typewriters, so why would we have a hymnal? So, right. Um, and most of our books are on our phone. Um, so there’s a, so I think there’s a, there’s a, there’s an issue there too.

[00:19:04] Collin Hansen: Let’s talk about that specific issue right there a little bit more. How has the shift away from printed music to projected lyrics changed the average Christian’s experience of music, especially in the context of a worship service?

[00:19:18] Keith Getty: No, it’s a great question. It’s a great question and, and Overstate deserves a much longer answer that I can give you.

Um, I think if you’re a pastor or a worship leader, um, or again, a concerned, a concerned parent, um, I think the key issues are. If you put songs in a screen, you’re no longer curating ’cause you can set anything on a screen. So I think you have to look at what that means is, are you protecting your church from, from songs that are not helpful, helpful.

But even more than that, just do once you, once you move away from the kind of a liturgical framework or exposition Bible teaching, once you move away from those kind of guardrails, um, you’re not sinning. But you are subject to kind of going after your whims rather than having a broad picture of the God, but you’re less likely to sing immortal, invisible God only wise in light, inaccessible hid from our eyes.

Most blessed, most glorious, the ancient of days or mighty victorious, thy great name we praise because apart from anything else, it’s not about us until the last three words that that’s like, do you know what I mean? It’s the only thing that’s subjective or it’s only thing that’s subjective. And we, you know, modern worship craves just subjectiveness and uh, and also simple lyrics.

Simple lyrics. Everybody can get the first time. So you’ve, so you’re, you, you’re deep. So you have the, you have the correction issue. You then the second issue is, is the issue of words. You’re doing a hymnal. A lyric has to look good, feel good, be past around people and go, wow, this is a beautiful lyric. Do you know what I mean?

It has to have a poetic realm to it, to, to be in a, because a hymnal last for 25 years when you’re making a hymnal. This is another interesting point. When you make a hymnal, one of your questions has to be, will this lyric, will this hymnal, will this hymn last for the duration of the publication? So we have to keep going back to, if this is gonna last for 14 to 30 years.

Will him be good for 14 to 30 years? So it’s a different question is then modern worship worshipers on Sunday are not going, oh, I wonder, will our church be singing this in 25 years? No, not most of them

[00:21:19] Collin Hansen: doesn’t even go through their head. So, well, that goes back to one thing I was wondering about before.

In contemporary music, a song 14 years old is ancient. That’s impossible to fathom that the, the turnover time is really quick. It’s like a song goes from written, nobody’s ever heard of it before, written to sung on the radio, super popular, and then it’s just gone. It just, there’s a new one that’s down from the same group and that’s that everybody’s listening to now.

There’s just not a lot of continuity there as well. That’s, I think, another one of those changes. Um, now technology has given us access to hundreds of thousands of songs to choose of congregational worship. Why should a church invest? And in many ways, we don’t even necessarily have the. Architecture within our churches to handle the, the, the written books in some ways, why should a church invest in a set of hard bound hys instead of just relying on a digital subscription to a song database?

[00:22:23] Keith Getty: Yeah, I think it’s, it’s probably two or three different ar arguments for it. I think the first one is it gives you a curation. These are hymns that we feel are valuable and so it gives people a sort of a safe level. Secondly, it helps people under get a lot of the great hymns of history. Uh, you know, um, the history issue is such an interesting issue ’cause it really is.

In politics, they talk about wraparound issues. Do you know what I mean? So for example, um, uh. Privacy is a wraparound issue. The extreme right and extreme left care about care about privacy. Everybody in the middle kind of goes well, you know, to be safe in this world is probably, there’s probably stuff happening, but we don’t really care.

It’s not a major issue for us. Um, and, and the church today, under 20 fives and over sixties, really care about history. The folks in the middle don’t, don’t really care about it so much. So it actually is, while it’s something that the older generation are still shouting about, older worship leaders are shouting about.

It’s actually as vocal an issue for people who are under 25 because. They want to go into a city church and know that if you’re at university, you want to go to church and you’re thinking about life. A hymn that has been around since the seventh century or singing a version of the Psalms is a whole lot more believable than some shoddy piece of poetry.

That sounds like 10 years ago’s music that somebody at the front is like. Doing some acrobatics about, do you know what I mean? And so I think, I think, you know, people have to understand actually where culture is going faster than they can imagine, you know? And uh, so I think, I think, I think the, I think the great hymns of history, I think curation is huge.

I think the great himms of history is huge. But also I think having a publication like this, we live with the stuff more, you know, as we live with the stuff more my, I have four grandparents, as many have, and they all had handbooks by their bedside. They also have them on the piano in the living room. And so you end up spending a lot of your dead time instead of flicking onto your screen, your on your, on your phone.

You actually just start reading here. I’ve just opened it here. May the mind of Christ my savior, live in me from day to day by his love and power controlling all I do or say. And may the word of God dwell richly and may the love of Jesus fill me. May his beauty rest upon me. May I run the race before me?

That was written by a lady, a brilliant poet, who invested most of her time in, in, in children’s homes in London. So I, I, I will be pretty sure as a writer, that as she wrote that she was imagining some of the little girls that she’d rescued who were orphans and she was praying that for them. And I’m filling my mind up with that right now because, you know, I have these.

Probably sign.

And they probably guessed I’ll be doing that.

[00:25:17] Collin Hansen: Well, let’s, um, let’s talk about another crossway author. John Piper often heard him say that he likes him. Yeah. Heard of him. He says he likes screens because they lift your eyes as you sing. And also when you’re projecting your posture, you’re projecting out and up on.

And at the same time, some of us at least can associate and remember hymns and hymn knowles with boring and rote. Singing. Yeah, that’s a little bit of probably what you’re up against. Do you worry about either of those points with this? No. I mean, obviously

[00:25:48] Keith Getty: John would be the, would be the highest profile of what you would call low church, you know, uh, low church worship kind of advocate amongst the gospel coalition.

Most of the gospel coalition, certainly the foreign would be, would be slightly with a slightly more liturgical uh, perspective, which was worth just observing that, um. I think John’s right in that. I mean, I, I conducted choirs from, I was 13, um, till built to today, but it was, it was a large, was my first, my first break into professional music was being a choir conductor.

And the, the, the, one of the foremost things you have to do is to get people to hold their music up and project out. So John is exactly right if you put it on the screens, but I don’t think, I don’t think having the music on the screens negates doing this. I mean, the same conference this year, we’re gonna have most of the words on the screens as well.

A few times we’ll just go to the books, but we’ll expect people to hold the books, but also to have the screens as well. So, so it is, it is much more than just tech. It is much more than just technology.

[00:26:42] Collin Hansen: Part of it’s just training people’s expectations. Yeah. There. Um, and, and I, I mean, I’ve been through plenty of.

Services at this point that are contemporary and they feel like we’re just going through the motions. You mentioned the acrobatics upfront. It often feel very performative in the same way that it can feel boring with a hymn, and I think with the younger generations that you mentioned. They don’t actually even remember anything about hymns.

Yeah. They don’t remember anything about that experience in the church, so it’s gonna be a novel experience for a lot of them. Yeah. Uh, let’s talk about liturgy. You’ve mentioned that a few different times in here. That’s been a controversial point. Of late and a sense that some have that they need to leave, uh, their church to go to a different denomination or maybe even to become Catholic or Orthodox, to be able to experience this liturgy and connection to history.

Um, how do you see your. This project, the Singh hymnal, speaking into that, uh, that controversy of life. I

[00:27:43] Keith Getty: think your point is a great one, Colin. And I mean, for what it’s worth, um, we we’re seeing deconstruction at two le at two broad levels, uh, of the confessional church. Right now. One of them is the person who life goes wrong and they kind of dump it, they dump it as a bad job.

But, you know, gi given that that’s always happened in history and also given the spurious. Easy faith that has happened and continues to happen in our generation. You go camp in the summer, you go off to a youth event because you’re, you’re chasing a girl or something and you hear this amazing music and you have this feeling in your stomach and you think you’re a Christian.

Of course, you and I both know that’s not, I mean, getting that flushed out, you know, I, I, I’m not, I’m not, I mean, I, I’ve put young teenage daughters don’t, I don’t, I don’t dismiss the fear of deconstruction, but, but it’s, it’s not, it’s not. If you look at the, all the proportions and look at the stats of it, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s highly, it’s highly predictable.

Um, for the most part, what concerns me a lot more is the number of thoughtful leaders, uh, and businessmen who are involved in the, the heads of churches who are moving to Catholic churches, non-con confessional liturgical churches, orthodox churches right now. Simply because they are so sick of the nonsense at the front of our churches and the utterly empty and manipulated feeling that people are leaving church services with.

[00:29:01] Collin Hansen: Mm.

[00:29:01] Keith Getty: Um, and suddenly when they go into an Orthodox Church, number one, number one, it takes away individualism. Number two, there is a gospel shape to it. That is just right. Of course, we don’t necessarily agree with all the liturgical parts of all of those services, but there is still a largely gospel shape that because God has created us and we’re faithfully, faithfully, and wonderfully made, it just makes sense and so it gives us a peace.

There’s a poetic beauty to it. And then there’s a sense that there’s a sense that this is our worship leader, but we’ve had five worship leaders in the last 13 years and you know, two of them had to be fired for morality or whatever. And we’re actually, we’re now we’re gonna a church that, oh, they’ve been doing this since like 1648.

Do you know what I mean? And suddenly everything seems a lot more sensible. And so, as I said, I think that that speaks to the wraparound issue, that it’s, do you know what I mean? That there’s an older generation. Um, but there’s also an a, a younger generation who no longer, who no longer accept all the presumptions that a previous generation had for church and are going back to first principles of logic and for them.

The liturgical service, which was why Luther was so determined to create a gospel shaped liturgy. And Kraner was so determined to create a gospel shaped liturgy. Because if we can get back to that, suddenly we have a framework for everything. And it is true to say a lot of these churches don’t preach the gospel.

And that’s sad. But I would also say as a second note, those churches have survived. The liturgy is the only, the liturgy and the hymns are the only thing preaching the gospel in those churches, churches that didn’t have, that don’t even survive. Do you know what I mean? So I think that we gotta be careful how we use our logic there because, you know, we can, we can argue exactly the wrong thing or argue actually upside down,

[00:30:45] Collin Hansen: right?

Yeah. Prove, prove too big of a point as as well prove too much in the argument. Um. Church members might be surprised to learn that musicians and preaching pastors do not always get along. Can this hymnal help bridge? That’s gonna, that’s gonna be the

[00:31:03] Keith Getty: quote, that’s gonna be the quote of this whole podcast.

That is, that is, that is incredible. I, I’m just trying to, to keep this calm, Colin, when did this start? This is shocking news to you, Keith. I know. It must be the, it must be the current, you know, political, political establishment, you know. Blame them.

[00:31:26] Collin Hansen: I mean, I, it, it is, I guess, has it, has it always been that way or did some of the different changes that we’ve made in our expectations of music set us up for that conflict?

So

[00:31:38] Keith Getty: I think the answer to that, that question as you, as you, and you and I were both know, the answer to that question is yes and no. Um, um, you know, musicians, musicians buy their. By their makeup are, are never the easiest people to get on with. And, uh, and, uh, and, and then even just some of the, some of the priorities and principles of historic evangelicalism candidly have not helped themselves.

Their relationship to those who are creative. And so there’s, there’s endemic, there are endemic issues that would, that would, that would make interesting podcasts or PhD studies out of that. I think the problem more recently is, is, is two or threefold. One is there is a terrible theology of what worship and singing now is in the church that is far closer linked, far closer linked to, to, to sales and marketing and to, and to, and to therapy than it is to, to holy worship.

And so we need to get a clear theology of what we’re doing. Secondly, there is a, there is a, there is mass confusion. There is mass confusion compared to 50 years ago on what kind of songs we sing. If you were Presbyterian living in Alabama. You kind of knew how you sang, you all sang the same way and, and, uh, whereas now it is everything.

So there is a, there is a cultural, there’s a cultural change that hasn’t quite landed yet. Any cultural change, whether it’s a new pastor or a new house or a new dog in your house require cultural changes and shifts. Yeah. And those, and those haven’t quite landed, I don’t think. But I think there are some basic ones as well in that because the modern worship leader is given such a pathetic, the high platform.

Um, they forget that, you know, they, you know that, that they’re there to serve a church and they have a boss. Do you know what I mean? So, you know, for example, when we do, you know, when we do Carnegie Hall or Robert Hall or whatever these shows or playing grand next week, you know, we have, we have lawyers who do our contracts and, and make sure that we can control our show and our message, and that they can’t superimpose a message on us.

When I’m leading in church, if the pastor says to me five minutes beforehand, I’m changing the song, or we’re having to cut time because there’s a, there’s a backup in the car park, then, then I say, what do you cut? And he cuts my, he is my boss. I honor, I honor my pastor. Um, and, uh, I honor they’re, they’re my leadership and there’s a very clear.

Structure. That’s that, that should be no less clear than military structure, in my opinion. So any, any church out there, any pastor out there who’s scared to tell his worship leader something or who the worship leader is able to do stuff and the pastor doesn’t know how to tell him. I think, I think I can already predict that I’m pretty much 90% sure you’re heading for absolute chaos somewhere in the next six months to six years.

And uh, so I think that’s in a,

[00:34:31] Collin Hansen: maybe you disagree, Colin? I dunno. No, I, when I was training for ministry. You start to see that we often run into the same problem for the same reasons. It would be the preacher who’s really great at preaching and people think, well, you don’t need to care about his character because Yeah.

And the qualifications of eldership, because look at how great a preacher is. It extends to youth ministry. Yeah. We don’t really evaluate and expect a lot out of, out of his character because he’s great with kids and he loves hanging out with them.

[00:35:04] Keith Getty: Charismatic. It’s

[00:35:06] Collin Hansen: charismatic. And then in music, we don’t seem to really value the character parts or the qualification parts.

And we’ll just throw somebody up there because they, their voice sounds great and they’re good with the music and not really understanding that people can be attracted to those things for really bad reasons. Yeah. Which is why the character requirements are so significant there. And then we wake up and we wonder why we have problems.

Yeah, I don’t think that should be that much of a mystery. Yeah. Yeah. No, a hundred hundred percent agree. Yeah. Um. Now you’ve mentioned a, a couple of these, a couple of these uses. Keith, I love the way you talked about by the piano and by the bedside. Yeah. Um, and for all of life, I’m, I’m gonna use that. I’m gonna do that and I’m gonna use that.

I love that. That’s the way, the way the interview started there with my own, my own grandfather. And then we’ve got the piano there in the living room with the hymnal sitting on it, on it right now. Um. Are there other ways you expect or hope that this hymnal will be used? You mentioned some of the prayers and liturgies.

People may be surprised and there’s 400, yeah,

[00:36:13] Keith Getty: yeah. 400

[00:36:14] Collin Hansen: prayers and liturgies. Yeah. I think, I think,

[00:36:16] Keith Getty: I hope, uh, we hope it can be. I know when, when we talk about, we hope, we hope it can be a one stop shop for all Christian leaders. So if you decide. This is not what our church want. I still hope that each of the leaders in the church will buy it, because if you’ve got it and you’re going to do a called worship tomorrow, or you have to go and do a thing for the, the youth ministry, or you have to go to an event whether there’s a bereavement or you have to go and, and speak at a a local school, a local school or social event in the Christmas season.

Or, or you have to, um, you know, there, there are incredible prayers and readings all the way through this. So we hope people alongside their study bible and their shorter catechism or whatever, or new city catechism that they have, and we hope it can become a reference book for all leaders and for all parents.

So that’s, uh, uh, that’s, that’s one of the things, um, I think, I think, which is a, a huge part of it. And, uh, and, uh, as well as obviously, you know, musicians been able to use it wherever they are as well. I think it’s a good thing too.

[00:37:18] Collin Hansen: I’m already, um, I got my copy from, from you guys and from, from Crossway, but I’m al I’m already thinking I’m gonna need multiple copies for different parts of the room of the house.

I’m gonna, I’m gonna wear these, wear these things out. Um, again, like I said, I’ve, I’ve been looking forward to this for a long time. Uh, Keith, just a. Couple more questions here. What do you, what do you hope the legacy of the single hym know will be 20 years from now? What would long-term success look like?

I mean, certainly all of us as authors and publishers, we want sales, but you don’t go into it just. To sell books. You want it to change something, you want something to be different. 20 years. What do you hope’s changed? Well, I, I have to

[00:37:58] Keith Getty: admit, I, I have actually no idea what the relative metrics are of this, so I’ll be, be entirely the wrong person to ask it.

Uh, and, and I appreciate the fact that Crossway do care about that. And I, and, and, and I, and I, and that’s, and that’s only right that they do. But, um, you know, I think, I think. You know, there’s, again, it’s, it’s, it’s multiple levels, you know, uh, at the, at the practical level, we said earlier, the two big issues that we feel are, are becoming a huge concern is the curation of what churches and families sing, and the lack of hymns that you will carry with you through life.

Um, uh, and that is because of the theology. That is because of the melody. That is because of the artistry and poetry, which makes every part of us. More intelligent, more sharp, more thoughtful. Um, and so, so that is the two things that I think are, are if, if in five to, if you ask me if in five to 25 years time, if, if Evangelical churches across America and English speaking Britain and English speaking world have returned to singing more grit, hymns.

Or more of those churches are going, we use this hymnal, or we use a different hymnal. We set up our own hymnal for our community. Or these are the 50 hymns, like our church of a thing that there’s 50 hymns they want every kid to know by heart. I love that before they leave for college. I love that. Do you know what I mean?

Mm-hmm. And so you know that if that, if those two things have happened, I think, I think that is a positive result that, that, that creates healthier un holier Christians, Christian families, Christian communities. At a second level, you know, at the artist level, and even, even filtering then even more so into the spiritual level at the third level, you know, for us to spend time gazing on the beauty of the Lord, you know, at his wonders, and being able to sing, being able to sing those things then into, into the spiritual rabbit, you know, the, the most of the testimonies will be individual stories.

I have a friend who was an Isla Islamic, who was Islamic, who became a Christian. A service of beautiful Christian worship, just singing hymns in four part harmony. You know the number of times we, we come, you know, as what’s, what’s what rock of edges say, um, helpless. We look helpless. We come for grace naked, we come for dress.

You know, when we turn up on Sunday, you know, Alistair bagel was described, the congregation as being in quiet desperation. And I, I don’t want that quiet desperation to be answered by some stupid rant. Song at the front where you’re repeating something eight times and, and some, and somebody at the front’s trying to distract you and make you look at them.

Um, what, what I want them to do is to sing the beauty of the Lord Jesus in a way that they know and know in a fresh way, so that, you know, if you take something like Hark the Herald Angel Sing simply because that’s still enough. In the cultural right, uh, milieu to be relatable to everybody. Most people who sing that every Christmas will chew on a different line.

Each time they’ll come about it again. They’ll see a diff, they’ll see a new way, and that’s what great art does. Great art helps us see things in fresh ways. It helps us see things in bigger ways. It enlarges our vision and it also makes us see things for all the beauty that they are. And so, you know, the, at the end of the day, most of the ministry of this.

What’s happening as, as this family gather around the piano as 60 people gather at a church in Sunday, and most of it is just a daily and lifetime service that that does.

[00:41:33] Collin Hansen: Oh, I love that. Keith, congratulations on the publication of this. I’m just, as everybody can see through this interview, I’m just thrilled.

Aing Hymnal. It’s brand new, it’s published with Crossway. Get a copy. It’s gonna be, it’s gonna be great. Bed from your bedside to your piano, family devotions, uh, at your church. It’s a great blessing. Thank you, Keith. Colin,

[00:41:57] Keith Getty: thank you. And thank you for your encouragement as we’ve gone through it. This has been been great to hear from you occasionally, and, uh, to hear your enthusiasm for it actually means a huge amount.

So thanks for all you guys are doing and, uh, keep going. Thanks.

[00:42:17] Collin Hansen: Thank you for listening to this episode of Gospel Bound. For more interviews and to sign up for my new weekly newsletter unseen things, head over to tgc.org/gospel bound rate and review gospel bound on your favorite podcast platform so others can join us in this conversation. Until next time, remember when we’re bound to the gospel, we are bound in hope.