The Plurality Principle

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Collin Hansen
When I began working with Dave Harvey on his book, The plurality principle how to build and maintain a thriving church leadership team. I couldn’t imagine why anyone wouldn’t want a plurality of elders, more help in shepherding and teaching and deliberation. Why not? We all have blind spots, we all need help from other perspectives. We all need more shoulders on the plow. Well, fast forward to publication in 2021, from crossway in the Gospel coalition, and the plurality principle looks at least a little less plausible. Sure, maybe it’s nice to share the blame for hard decisions on pandemic policies. But what if your elders don’t agree with each other? What if they no longer trust each other? Wouldn’t a single decision maker make more sense?

Collin Hansen
Well, this week on gospel bound, I’m checking back in with Dave, president of great commission collective, a church planting ministry. Day brings more than 30 years of pastoral ministry to this conversation, and I’m eager to seek His counsel for pastors and other church leaders hoping to build thriving leadership teams. Dave argues that the quality of your elder plurality determines the health of your church. So let’s put our churches on the examining table and gauge their health. Dave, thanks for joining me,

Dave Harvey
I always enjoy our conversations Collin. Thanks for inviting me.

Collin Hansen
Well, Dave, what made you realize the need for the plurality principle?

Dave Harvey
Yeah, I think it was equal parts, participating on elder teams, or I led an elder team for about 20 years. And then working also on the network side, I lead a collective right now. And and then also being invited at times into Help Elder ships when they’re in crisis or in conflict. And I think somewhere along the way, call and I just began to realize, you know, the belief in plurality is not really under dispute. That’s universally celebrated. It’s the practice of plurality, it’s, it’s like, what can this really look like? That is really what seems to be more inaccessible or less apply. And so it was that. And it wasn’t just the lack of clarity on plurality, though, I think there was also a lack of vision on how healthy pluralities can actually impact the local church. That’s why the plurality principle there is an actual principle and you read it, that the quality of the elder team determines the health of the church in other words, whatever the elders become, together that, you know, the church often follows along with that.

Dave Harvey
And so I think those things were kind of in play. And then, over the past few years, one more thing fit into that. And this one won’t surprise you at all, but it’s just the the the Fallen celebrity pastor phenomenon, because I think one of the common denominators among all of them calling was the was the kind of pseudo plurality, you know, you know, that that hand selected group of friends, or peers outside of the church that they, you know, they pulled together for care and accountability, that became actually part of the problem. And and then also inadvertently undermined the vision and practice of plurality in their own church

Collin Hansen
Well you went there. Right away. Dave, you and I have been through the trenches on some of these things over the years, as we’ve talked about publicly, and privately, I find different situations when it comes to this. So I find a lot of pastors are, they’re scared of plurality, in part because it is accountability. It’s difficult. I think, also, there are situations out there where maybe the elders come together and, and pull a clue on a righteous man as a, as a pastor in there, how do you how do you counsel pastors that might be wary of this, or perhaps might even be tempted to adopt what you described there as the pseudo plurality? Because that seems to be part of the part of the problem.

Dave Harvey
Yeah, I think we want to start from the perspective of whether we’re persuaded from scripture, that this is a good thing. And so you know, I think the starting point is to go back and and recognize the reality that that plurality, this idea of shared leadership, it does seem to flow from what is the overwhelming evidence of of the New Testament that the churches had elders plural, not, not just an elder, singular, and and we could open up to a number of different passages there, but I think most of the people listen thing would be able to understand that and and recognize that and then also, I think we could talk about deacons same point we could talk about Paul’s ministry is 38 helpers, all of this being done kind of in teams.

Dave Harvey
So is there a fundamental conviction that plurality is biblical and, and should be pursued then then I think calling we’re working toward okay, what what does this plurality look like? And what does it represent? to augment it with wise leadership? How is that wise leadership, both released in their strengths, but also held accountable for, for weaknesses?

Collin Hansen
Make the case a little bit here, Dave. I mean, it does look like a lot of leadership in the Bible, from the patriarchs, to the prophets to Kings, his solo, Paul commends the plurality of elders, and yet at the same time, he has an apostolic authority. Was that a was that a hard transition for you? Or have you always been convicted by the biblical evidence for a plurality of elders?

Dave Harvey
Yeah, I think I, I experienced the benefits of plurality early on in ministry and examples of plurality, and you know, calling when you experience those things early on in your ministry experience or in your ministry journey, that can have a formative effect on you. So there was something about that on the experiential side that locked into place. Then on the scriptural side, I began to see some important distinctions and dis continuities between Old Testament leadership and New Testament leadership, and in how the church was being run that became reflective of but not not exactly parallel to what was going on in the Old Testament.

Dave Harvey
And, and then also in seeing churches that aren’t doing well in sitting with pastors in trying to help them to move forward. And in recognizing some of the the the examples of difficulty that the churches are going through the lack of health, I can point to where the elders and the lack of unity or clarity from the elders is directly affecting the people in the church. So I think those pieces began to come together to form within my sole conviction that plurality was really important in church leadership, and for the church.

Collin Hansen
I mean, in decades, though, of this leadership, was there ever a moment where you went, you went home, you got on your knees, you got into that prayer closet? And you just said, God, I wish I could just call the shots. I mean, I’m convicted. I think I know what needs to do. These guys just seem to be so dense. They don’t understand they don’t get it. ever a moment like that for you over the years?

Dave Harvey
Well, I think there were times where I, I had regrets over the way that I, I handled myself in plurality. Yeah, you know, but when I think about plurality, like some of my, some, some of my fondest memories of ministry are kind of wrapped up in the experience of plurality, and in the experience of doing ministry in, in community, but there, you know, there were times where I, I think, I, I regret how I, I participated in plurality, and where plurality was really hard, because Because plurality, you know, it, it calls forth love, and humility and accountability.

Dave Harvey
And, you know, I opened the book talking about a time where I became the lead pastor of a church where the lead pastor prior to me needed to take a leave of absence. And another guy was going, who was far more stature than I was, was was, was being considered for the church and I was being considered to take over, I kind of wrestled with that. And ultimately, that was a illustrating things that were going on in my soul, because to my shame, rather than supporting the guy, it just was exposing my my selfish ambition.

Dave Harvey
And, you know, God intervened, and there was Grace to see that grace to confess that I was happy then to support him. But I began to realize something, I began to realize that, wow, I didn’t expect this, I knew marriage was going to expose my heart in important ways, parenting would, but this experience of plurality was going to do it as well. And having a lead pastor to get more to your point in that role was going to do it as well, because it’s not just this group, that’s that they are all co equal, but there’s also real leadership in there, that’s going to have an effect on me or if I’m occupying that role, that I have to bear the responsibility before God to be able to exercise it in a way that’s that’s bringing a blessing and and and not exercising power. So so those things have an effect on us when we’re participating in that. And ultimately it, it becomes a work of the soul.

Collin Hansen
Put yourself Dave in the shoes of somebody could be coming from a charismatic background or a Baptist background with a solo elder, ie lead pastor, senior pastor model? Or could be coming from an Anglican Episcopal model with, with the with the rule of the bishop, and or is there? What would be the best argument you could identify against plurality? Is that a biblical theological one? Or is it a practical one, that it’s just not say efficient?

Collin Hansen
I do think that it is a, I’m glad you brought up marriage and parenting. Because in my in all my experience as an elder, I think it’s pretty similar in that there are very intense relational dynamics. You add history, and there’s their sin, and there’s pain, there are things that you’ve said that you wish you hadn’t said, that trail with you, there are relationships that used to be strong, they’re not as strong anymore. And it does make the church really slow down. I see that as a feature and not a bug. But I’m putting myself in the shoes of somebody from a different church tradition. And I think they would see that as a bug meaning, now we need to we need to adapt quickly, God gives His vision to a single figure.

Collin Hansen
And that authority is the way these things happen. And plus, at the end of the day, somebody has to make the decision anyway. Just because you have a bunch of people wrong doesn’t mean that, you know, that they’re that they’re right. I mean, you can have multiple people can be wrong here if God’s you know, hand is not on them. My guess I’m giving you a lot of examples here, but just the one you hear most common that you tried to anticipate in this book.

Dave Harvey
I think the two most common ones are, at least in the West, is that it’s inexpedient. You mentioned that one. And then the second one is just the need to give gifted people, unrestricted leadership. And, and so, you know, and some leaders avoid it for that reason, I think I think as a new leader for me, that was it was harder plurality was harder, because I valued expedience above anything else I kind of brought that you know, to the table in my leadership composition. Yeah, it’s funny call. It’s sitting on my bookshelf here is a is a book by a guy named Larry Crider. He wrote a book called The patient ferment of the early Chow, one of my favorites.

Dave Harvey
So yeah. So you know that he kind of contends that, that patience was the preeminent virtue in the first three centuries that that was the mark that they have maturity that they looked for in leaders, you know, kind of what what humility is today. Patience was back then and and so this idea of expedience, you know that it’s kind of a western idea, because it assumes that one possesses the power and the capacity to act, you know, to move people into move systems.

Dave Harvey
But when you don’t have resources, or you’re in a persecuted or oppressed environment, all the urgency in the world doesn’t bring forth expedience. And so I think that, you know, the expedience issue is a huge one for us, in the States and in in western civilization. And so I think the elder who ultimately gets plurality begins to understand that begins to understand that while there are times expedience is important, and there are times God values other things more. I mean, you only need to look at the prerequisites for eldership First Timothy three and Titus one, you’re not exactly arrive at somebody who’s going to be wired for expedience, through those, you know, those character qualities. It seems like it becomes kind of clear that God values humility, and community and patience, and he values character. And and so that’s kind of how the church flows and that through which the church flows,

Collin Hansen
I’m so glad you brought up Crider’s book also makes the argument that it was the quality of the community moreso than the quality of the teaching of the early church that that made a big difference. And I would say, probably in a lot of the church and theological circles that you and I run in there’s a heavy, heavy emphasis on teaching, especially not only that it’d be accurate but then it also be effective. And then to a certain extent, perhaps leadership, but that’s so tied, I think in so many ways to that Teaching, and that you could easily see elders as getting in the way of that of inhibiting the lead teachers abilities to be able to, you know, to be able to effectively lead in that context.

Collin Hansen
And yet, like you said, if the elder qualifications are so focused, not primarily on teaching, though, that’s included, but on how you relate to other people, how you care for other people, it seems that we’re, we’re, we’re out of balance in the 21st century western church, in that regard, you imagine, Dave, that you’re, you’re helping a young pastor, he’s coming to you asking for help in building a healthy elder culture, what’s the most important thing he can do,

Dave Harvey
I would say, think about the culture that he’s aiming for, and begin to model it himself. So, you know, the reality is, and sometimes young leaders don’t recognize this, that and that is that they have been entrusted with a role, that that can carry real influence. And that they need to use that role for the good of the plurality and use it to inspire the plurality in their practice and experience of plurality. So if you want a culture of care, for instance, begin to express and extend care to elders and others. If you want humility, you know, model it in the way that they encounter you, you know, vigorous discussion, if you want vigorous discussion and debate, celebrate it, when you encounter that in in meetings, because whatever you end up encouraging you you end up getting, getting more of, and this is important call in.

Dave Harvey
And I know that you agree with us, we connect why you do it directly to the gospel. In other words, we’re not looking to cultivate virtuous culture. We’re looking to cultivate gospel culture. And so we, you know, we humble ourselves, not because it creates a more unified team. But because it reflects the one who, though he existed in the form of God didn’t regard equality with God. So something to be grasped. But He emptied Himself,

Collin Hansen
I often feel pretty great about my character when I’m alone. It’s just when I’m around other people where I start to get into trouble on that. So it’s what it reminds me of, so why is in my own mind. And yet, when I get around other elders who have been called to this task, it, it forces, patience, and humility, and those things that I’m often very much lacking in there, it calls me to depend on Christ. And it calls me to trust that his Gospel is true. And that it’s not my job, you know, to go ahead and, and do all these things, but simply my job to follow Christ. And to try to set an example for others in that. I’ve got a few few questions here, we’re gonna continue in this practical vein, I mean, what I love about your, your book, Dave, and I would encourage people to do this with leadership teams in their churches, I think it’d be very helpful in building that healthy elder culture.

Collin Hansen
But I love to do here. And what I’ve often benefited from you is just talking through a lot of the practical dimensions of ministry. And one area where you’re really familiar is in church plants. And let’s, let’s say a pastor can’t identify qualified elders in his in his church. And this could go a couple directions, it could be in a church plant, where a lot of the lot of the leaders are young, inexperienced, and maybe have close ties with the pastor from discipleship and things like that, or it could be in an older congregation that had a different model, but they’ve moved toward a plurality of elders. What does the pastor do in those circumstances to work toward the principle that you advocate here?

Dave Harvey
He can teach the church on the role and the importance of eldership even though they may not be experiencing that, I think it’s good to, to root it in Scripture and make it clear that plurality, the experience of shared leadership is an important value and an important part of the success for the church for the future. And I think also that that allows him to explain his role to the church what why do we have a lead pastor why you know what, why bother and kind of distinguish that clarify the role of the lead pastor in the plurality and distinguishing and, and then in doing that, just get the church anticipating and praying and, and seeing it as a beautiful thing. I guess the other thing comes to mind calling is just that there are often opportunities to create provisional plurality so that you can you can walk in the experience of it even before you can technically embody it.

Dave Harvey
So, you know, assemble a leadership team, make it clear their roles temporary and that you’re looking for the day when elders, you know, we’ll be replacing them, but you still want to be able to benefit from their counsel, their advice, their friendship, it’s a, you know, it’s a it’s a provisional thing, but, but it’s a way to observe men who may ultimately fill some of those eldership roles outside of actually being offered the role.

Collin Hansen
Quick question here does a church with a plurality of elders need to reach their decisions unanimously,

Dave Harvey
I think different guys feel differently about this, you know, some believe it’s a stronger statement of humility, and unity, to have full agreement on all decisions. And we need to postpone the decisions and pray more if we don’t, if we don’t have that, for me, calling the the accent is over, creating a process of discussion and debate that has integrity, I think we need to cultivate cultures where everyone is free to share. But ultimately, where good ideas solid thinking theological thinking, is recognized for what it is. And to allow that to breathe. It is what wins the unity that we’re we’re ultimately looking for, and what is also often reached for by giving everybody the same vote and postponing all votes until we’re all united.

Dave Harvey
So it’s I think learning how to move forward with dissent. To me is actually a sign of a mature body. It’s a mature group of people. And it can I think it signals the same thing to the church. Like when I when I hear guys always agree on everything. My first thought is not Oh, wow, what Unity? You know, I tend to think of okay, wow, I, I hope that there’s, you know, there’s dissenting voices, I hope that doesn’t reflect groupthink, or keying off of the loudest voice in the room or anything like that,

Collin Hansen
it probably mean it just probably means the pastor is dominating. In that case?

Dave Harvey
It can often mean that yes, yeah.

Collin Hansen
Well, I mean, there are different ways to go about it. Maybe if you have an elder culture, where you decide that there’s going to be vigorous dissent in the room. But when it gets taken to the church, we’re all going to kind of revolt for public purposes. And it’ll be unanimous when we go to the public. I don’t, I don’t know if I know churches that do that. But that’s a common thing that you do in leadership situations. Another one, though, would be, I think one main argument against having everything unanimous is that it is really easily hijacked by one person. I mean, you learn a lot about elders when you become an elder with them. And you learn a lot about people when they join, you just didn’t know. And so it is easy for somebody to infiltrate that process who might not actually in might not demonstrate that character of an elder when they when they’re in that crucible of it.

Dave Harvey
That’s right. Yeah, that system tilts towards those that are most eloquent, and and most most conversant and versatile with, with scripture.

Collin Hansen
Yeah. Which are not necessarily bad things, but they’re not. They’re not the only requirements of being an elder. You can you can be a good teacher, but you may not be the person who dominates a meeting, and still be a valued, treasured elder heavy emphasis here on how all of the elders can be included. But ultimately, there is a distinction. And you we talked about this when you were writing the book, and we talk and it’s in the book, of how there are still those who are set apart who who for the for teaching publicly. They’re paid by the church, of course, and there’s a difference when they devote their time all of their time and thinking to this to this church. How can then lay leaders especially those elders, does lay elders how can they care well, for that senior or teaching pastor or lead pastor who is shouldering so much of that burden and trying to lead as as a one among equals or even perhaps a first among equals?

Dave Harvey
I think it helps when when guys around him are taking initiative to ask him questions to draw him out. You know, think about proverbs 20 The purpose of man’s heart is like deep water I think that you know, lead pastors have to swim in deep water they have to think in deep water and and I think that some initiative to drop the bucket town and pull up what’s going on inside of there. You know, not only gets the information but it it conveys a love and a desire to care that is very meaningful to a lead pastor. Well, I think helping him to protect his priorities.

Dave Harvey
I mean, you know, his family is a priority, the church is a priority, you know, they’re, you know, these, these things are intact in his life. But those are the things that often end up getting pushed aside or marginalized. John Piper called it pastoral polygamy, you have the home, and the church kind of competing for each other, and I think good elders, or or guys that are seeking to help a lead pastor can recognize that pool, and that tension that he lives in, and can can just find out how things are going in his marriage and, and find out if he’s taken his day off. And, and and whether he’s, you know, experiencing community within the church or what struggles he’s having in, in parenting. So, you know, so don’t don’t assume care, define care for the lead pastor?

Collin Hansen
Do you run into situations though, where the senior pastor is skeptical of that, because he’s worried about that information being used against him by the people who may actually be the ones charged by the church to evaluate his fitness as pastor? Well, actually,

Dave Harvey
I think that’s, that’s the reason that would be given by the guys that have the Fallen celebrity pastor phenomena that we were talking about earlier. That’s the reason they would give for why they haven’t been able to do that. And I do think that that’s a real experience. I don’t think that’s a reason why we opt out of it. I think it’s actually a call to build a different kind of culture and begin to model something begin to study together begin to affirm together what it is we want to experience together, and educate each other on what it means to provide care and counsel and, and what it means to experience and steward someone else’s weakness.

Dave Harvey
What happens when we sin, those kinds of though, all that needs to be worked through. So I think that when it’s not worked through, it creates the possibility of us miss handling each other, or have running to conclusions or exaggerating weaknesses in a way that that really pushes guys, outside of the church for care. So it’s not just that the what we’re experiencing, or what we’re seeing when we see this, this phenomenon of people reaching outside of the church. It’s not simply in a statement about the selfishness or self protection of leaders that are immediately going outside of the church in some way. It’s a statement as well on our inability to cultivate pluralities that are really providing care, based upon trust.

Collin Hansen
That’s good. Dave, I should have asked this question right off the bat, most of the people listening to gospel bound, they’re not pastors, probably not elders, either. What’s the benefit to them? I mean, they may not want to pick up the plurality principle how to build a maintain a thriving church leadership team, maybe not even so bold as to hand it to one of their elders, if I be a little bit overly suggestive of in that case, but they may want to, you know, let them know about it. Why didn’t why should they care? I mean, there’s a given in here that you’re helping them to see what this principle that the quality of their churches health is going to depend on this poor health is poor ality. But go a little bit deeper on that. Why should somebody listening here, who’s not an elder, not a pastor? Why should they? Why should they care about the argument you’re trying to make with this book?

Dave Harvey
I think if you have an interest in understanding some of the largest problems that churches are experiencing right now, you need to study plurality, you need to understand what it is what plurality is supposed to be, because the you know, the pandemic, for instance, that the pandemic and things that have taken place over the last two years have have revealed the cracks and the weaknesses that exist in pluralities. It’s like fingers have been put on the the most delicate points of the pluralities and have opened them up, and have have allowed them to experience and understand their weaknesses in a whole new way.

Dave Harvey
So that’s what’s that’s what’s happening behind the scenes in your churches. And and I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, you know, by the by, by the sovereignty of a good God, he is helping us to see these weaknesses or our sinful tendencies, the places where we need to improve, and he’s calling us to a whole new level of health. But that’s an important part of what’s going on right now. And the same thing with the celebrity pastor phenomenon, those that have fallen plurality was a, it was a huge issue there or the absence of plurality was, so the more that we understand plurality, I think the more it’s going to help us in some of our diagnostics of what’s going on.

Collin Hansen
This question just came to me because of just some of the Really, it’s kind of taken for granted with some of your history. Do you think it’s important that we have lay elders who are not full time vocational pastors? Or are you? Can you go either way? On that question?

Dave Harvey
I do think it’s important. It’s not a hill that I’m prepared to die on. But yeah, I come from a world where were all the pastors, or all the elders were compensated, they were also pastors. And as I stepped out of that world, I began to appreciate more the strength that comes in and eldership, by having voices that are, are connected into the congregation in a different way than pastors are, that are connected into the world in a different way that pastors are, and are not compensated by the church in the way pastors are. And those three ingredients creates a different voice into the eldership that can help the church bring perspective, protected in different ways. And, and really strengthen the eldership as well,

Collin Hansen
I’m gonna have to restrain myself for us, it’s going to turn into a counseling session between me and Dave on how to be a good elder. So just go ahead, you can read it for yourself, the plurality principle how to build and maintain a thriving church leadership team from crossway and the gospel coalition. I got a final three for you here, Dave. Always do this on gospel bound first, Dave, how do you find calm in the storm? We asked us to everybody, but you’re you’re my friend, obviously, coming through one of the biggest storms? You could. So I mean, this is a live question for you.

Dave Harvey
I think Kim is a great island for me in the storm. She has a compass my wife, she has an instinct of faith toward God, and is not easily polluted, or made cynical by the things that I unburden my heart with or odds. And so I think some of that is just a, I think, a God given but also constitutional capacity to compartmentalize, like it’s like a superpower for her. She can just compartmentalize. And so I can I can often count on her for a calm perspective, or, or a reminder of, of God’s sovereignty at work. That’s a

Collin Hansen
gifted counselor. Right? Sure. Second question, Dave, where do you find good news today,

Dave Harvey
I asked people how they are encountering and experiencing God. And I draw encouragement from that. Sometimes instruction from that. And one that’s probably familiar to many people, I find out what people are reading, you mentioned how, you know, we’ve been going through a difficult season due to due to a loss in our family. And, and book recommendations have made a huge difference in, in taking the field of books on on suffering, and even even some of which I’ve read and reducing it down to, you know, the few that I really want to be giving myself to, so that that’s really helped us. Well,

Collin Hansen
you know, Dave, I’m glad you said that, of course, this is a books podcast. So everybody kind of knows what they’re getting here. And you often hear in grief and counseling that you should not be recommending books, you know, here do not do that. And I’m sure that’s good advice in many cases. But not if you’re Dave Harvey, and you read books, and you’ve been writing books on sort of stuff. So that’s a way that you’ve been ministered to, is by people making those recommendations.

Dave Harvey
Yes, absolutely. There’s a one of one of the wonderful things about being alive today is there’s a number of books that are written on suffering that are really helpful, but just just in walking through Tim Keller’s book again, walking with God through pain and suffering, which I think is just one of the most comprehensive looks at suffering. Were this the end, the stories at the end of many of the chapters are just gold. And so that’s been that’s been really and one of the things that happened in reading that book is he mentioned in the book, Elizabeth, Elliott’s fiction, no graven idol. He talks about it in the book. So I went and read the fiction as well, and was really edified by that too. So you know, there’s a, you know, there’s a derivative effect that you were one author introduces you to something else that has influenced them and you can kind of go down that rabbit trail,

Collin Hansen
a woman acquainted with grief and loss to husbands and O’s, Tim and Kathy’s Professor back in seminary. Last question, then Dave, what’s the last great book you’ve read? Maybe you just started give the answer.

Dave Harvey
Well, that one has been very meaningful personally. As Kim and I have been working through issues of grief and loss, I think one of the big impact ones in this season from a leadership standpoint has been Carl Truman’s book, you know, the rise and fall of modern of the modern self. I think that the, you know, the therapeutic categories are the categories of self, quote, unquote, those are not ideal. One of the things you take away from this book is to realize, as a pastor, you know, these are not ideas that are like fighting to gain ground in the church. They have arrived, they have triumphed, they have put up the flag, and ministry today is about identifying them, and discerning them and then unseating them in the church.

Dave Harvey
And, and that book helps us to do that. One more i, that I’ve been listening through some typically doing something on Audible when I drive. So I’m listening through Tolstoy’s resurrection. And he’s got these two characters. So Tolstoy is, obviously a couple of his books on audible, they really hard to listen to. Because he’s, he’s such a great writer, but it’s it’s layered. He’s got characters, and then you got Russian names. And then everybody has three or four names. Yeah, exactly. Get used throughout the book, but, but he’s got two characters, and that are being transformed by encountering one another, kind of from their different worlds. And one of them’s like an elder brother, and the other is a younger brother. And it’s about their transformation. So I’m finding that very edifying as well.

Collin Hansen
I love that I knew that question would be, would be a good one. You know, I appreciate crossway spa, their publication of this book, their sponsorship of this podcast, and I don’t prompt almost everybody on this show, which probably tells you something about my guests site, curl Truman’s book as their favorite on that one. So I think people listening to gospel bound some dozens and dozens and dozens of episodes in they’ve gotten a sell on that one, but I don’t I don’t plant it.

Collin Hansen
But it’s not a coincidence. That book is a that’s one of them that I most commonly recommend as well. I can’t even go back and remember the way you framed it, but they’ve, they’ve infiltrated the church, they’ve set up camp, they’ve raised the flag and our job is to unseat those ideas from in the church and teaching the gospel but teaching the gospel specifically, as it is also confronting those idols that don’t allow us to actually hear that good news. That also comes with the conviction of sin. Dave Harvey has been my guest check out his book, The plurality principle how to build and maintain a thriving church leadership team, no doubt a timely book, Dave, as always, thank you, my friend.

Dave Harvey
Thank you for inviting me to join you, Collin.