Lessons on Evangelism from an Unlikely Evangelist

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Collin Hansen
On this podcast, you know, the western world is rapidly changing. As a Christian, no matter where you’re living or listening, you probably feel like a stranger sometimes in a strange land. And you’ve considered how to respond. Should we retreat in cultural isolation? Or should we engage in political aggression to take back what what we’ve lost? Well, either option can be warranted depending on the situation, but more than anything else, we need hope that we’re hope when we’re far from home. We need encouragement and insight found in the men and women of Scripture, both Old and New Testament. Because God’s people have been faithful through the ages in the face of hostility. They can help us with everything from how we worship to when we protest, more than anything else, they show us how those with hope beyond this world can be faithful in it. This is the premise behind a new book, faithful exiles Finding Hope, and a hostile world published by TGC and edited by staff editors, Ivan Mesa, and Elliot Clark. The chapter on apologetics has been written by Claude ocho pastor of church of the resurrection in Charlottesville, Virginia. He previously served as a pastor in Boston and Memphis and earlier wrote the book reading Black Books how African American literature can make our faith more whole and just published by Brazos. Akkad features the Samaritan woman at the well in John four in the book faithful exiles and explains how her example can inspire us as we testify to Christ. Even in today’s hostile world. Claude writes this, our witness or apologetics, will have no pulse and no power, apart from a life giving an experience with Christ that shapes us day after de Claude I’m eager to talk about this. Thanks for joining me on gospel bound,

Claude Atcho
Collin, it’s a pleasure.

Collin Hansen
Let’s just start with this. Why do you say there may be no better model of witness in the gospels than the Samaritan woman at the well, that’s a big claim, eager to know more of what you think about that?

Claude Atcho
Yeah, you know, I mean, I think if we want to look pragmatically at just sort of the results, you know, her witness leads to a city wide harvest, you know, she, she encounters Jesus, Jesus encounters her. She, they have a profound discussion. She’s gone, she goes back to her towns, folks. She offers you know what she’s experienced she, she comments on it, and then people believe and then they believe not just because of her word, but because they eventually encountered Jesus themselves. So So I think in terms of sort of a revival, she she really does lead. She really does a lead one. And so I think, in a sense, there’s maybe a little bit of overstatement that I’m using there, but I think we we often remember the Samaritan woman, because of you know, maybe her lowered past but we forget, she’s, you know, a powerful evangelist in the Gospel witness.

Collin Hansen
One of my favorite things when I’m teaching the Bible is just to ask the question of, Why do you think it’s there? I mean, there was so many other things that Jesus did. What do you think was behind why her story features feature so prominently? Why is it included?

Claude Atcho
Hmm. So good question. I think one of the one of the aspects of, especially in John’s Gospel is the sort of key moments where Jesus is encountering others, we obviously think about the im statements that Jesus makes. But you know, here’s another encounter that takes place at a Well, that’s an important aspect of Scripture that shows again, this fulfillment theme throughout Scripture, particularly showing God the metaphor of marriage right towards his people, the bride and the bridegroom. And so here is, here’s this woman who, who has a checkered past, regarding men and marriage and fidelity, which you know, kind of corresponds to Israel right into to their story as well. And now here’s Jesus who, who meets her at a well, and is speaking to her about her husband’s and is now leading her into life right out of her, her shame and her sin and into his salvation and grace. So So I think there’s a key thing there that John is probably playing with, that he expects readers of Scripture to, to really understand it to know. But I think it also shows us how, you know, John is interested in this theme of eternal life. Or here’s somebody who is at the margins of society, who’s made a mess and a wreck of their lives. And yet, through this encounter with Jesus is restored. So I think there’s both the sort of broader scriptural kind of narrative that’s there. But then there’s just the testimony John is writing he tells us at the end of his gospel, that we wouldn’t that we would know and believe in Jesus and have eternal life. And here’s somebody who’s whose life is a wreck, and yet through an encounter with Jesus is restored and I think John knows that that’s going to hold out hope for his readers down the down the line down the centuries.

Collin Hansen
One of my favorite things as well when I’m teaching scripture and from some of my favorite teachers, like you in this book. Sometimes I’ll say see a familiar story. And I’ll just kind of skip over it. And then, but then when a good teacher, when I’m having to teach the passage, I just dig deep. And all of a sudden, there’s these things that I didn’t notice all these details. And I remember being taught in seminary, there are no superfluous details in Scripture, God intends them to be there. So when you look, dive into some of the details of Jesus’s interaction with this woman, what stands out to you about his engagement with her?

Claude Atcho
You know, one of the things that really stood out to me, you know, working through the passage, in writing the chapter was just the the level of depth and in their conversation, you know, so Jesus comes in, there’s first a sort of mutuality, that that exists when he asked a woman to give him a drink, right, there’s sort of this, there’s an exchange that’s being presented to happen. And of course, you know, I think what we broadly know if we’re familiar with the passage is that there’s all sorts of boundaries that are being broken here by Jesus in this interaction, he’s speaking to this woman, they’re alone. She’s a Samaritan, he’s a Jew, right? So there’s hostility that cuts both ways, as they sort of tried to lay claim to Who are you know, really worshiping God, truly, and rightly, so all of these things are happening. But then Jesus engages her in, in really deep conversation in theological discourse, you know, like, they kind of stand toe to toe and have this conversation that was so that was surprising to me. The sort of depth and the dignity that Jesus lends to this woman, even as he’s going to expose and correct, he has a real conversation with her, I thought that really, that was a fresh insight for me. The other aspect that really stood out to me digging into the passage was the woman’s testimony as she encounters Jesus. And as Jesus exposes and says, you know, the one you’re with is not your husband, you’ve had, you’ve had five husbands before she exposes her. And, and out of that, the woman leaves and she, she makes this declaration in the passage to, to her towns, folks, come see a man who told me all that I ever did. And I think I had missed how personal her testimony of Jesus really is. And then she raises the question, can this be the Christ? And so I had not really adequately reckoned with the fact that her testimony is, is deeply personal. This is her experience, what we might say in our in our age is her truth, right? And that’s what really launches this sort of revival of the gospel among her among her town, folks.

Collin Hansen
Now, your your chapter here, looking specifically at this story is broadly considering the topic of apologetics. And one of the things you’re right is this. The key to apologetics isn’t pithy answers are irrefutable arguments, but a sense of awe in Jesus that can’t be silenced. That really draws out some of what you’ve already said about this Samaritan woman. But do you know somebody in your personal life who’s like this, who has a sense of awe in Jesus that can’t be silenced?

Claude Atcho
There are a couple of people that do come to mind. I think, I think the challenge for us here is that in our in our growing, you know, Bible knowledge or understanding that the good news of Jesus life, death, resurrection, for our salvation, is for all of life, not just conversion, but also sanctification. I think there’s a challenge in which as we grow in that understanding, instead of our familiarity producing a deepened awe, it can produce a sort of static familiarity that leads to a sense of kind of boredom, a sense of sort of been there and done that. And so there are people that come to mind that, for whatever reason, it seems to be fresh to them. And they speak about Jesus not just as sort of like a person out there, but as as their master that they follow day by day. So I’d heard a written a recent example, from a church leader, who was just sharing about their devotional kind of life and practices, and it was the right sort of setting to share that they weren’t sharing, you know, in order to sort of, you know, brag and put on airs, but they were, they were sharing that, you know, each morning they do their prayers and their reading, but also will pray and just say, okay, Jesus, today, it’s, it’s you and me. I’m following you. What are we getting into today? And it’s just that sort of, you know, that sort of tangible kind of visceral like I, you know, I really follow Jesus each day, I think Dallas Willard was a great writer on this. And I think there’s a lot of writers doing contemporary work that are drawing from a lot of his insights. And I think it’s that sort of that is a recognition that Jesus is risen and is actually with us by His Spirit that produces the capacity to have ah, you know, in our prayer life, in our devotional life in our just sort of day to day that gives us the joy and the power that then leads to an authentic testimonial witness to the people around us.

Collin Hansen
I think part of the exile that we feel is that that that or is not always palpable. So it’s not necessarily about something that’s changed in our culture. Or maybe something that’s changed in the last several hundreds of years, but not necessarily a recent change, you really have to fight for it. Because things are so distracting. Yeah, things are so this worldly, so imminent, that it’s very hard to break out of that frame and to really, sort of have that palpable sense of God’s presence, His majesty, His glory, but also his, his personality, his relationship to us that we see so evident in Jesus relationship. You’re hearing his conversation here with this woman? I think that’s, that’s very hard to do. Yeah, well, go ahead. Do you have a thought there? Yeah,

Claude Atcho
I do. And it Yeah, Colin is really helpful. And it’s just, you know, making other connections, in my mind. And I think that suggests a priority of you know, all of scripture is God breathed all of scripture points to Christ. But it does, I think suggests a priority that, you know, as disciples, we really do need to do all that we can to make sure we keep a, you know, a finger in the pages of one of the Gospels so that we’re continuing to encounter Jesus in this way that he is non ignorable unavoidable, and we’re seeing him encounter people, and we’re saying, I’m like this person, okay. You know, I’m not Jesus in the story. I’m, like, the woman in the story, you know, and so I think, you know, a lot of times we can, you know, it’s it’s, it’s shocking to me how easy it is to get away from Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, even though I’m, you know, working and thinking in a in a Christ centered way. But But I do need desperately that sort of unfiltered, in a sense encounters like, here’s Jesus with people that are like me, and that helps me that draws me further into to an encounter with him.

Collin Hansen
I sense a subtle Anglican liturgical plug there. But that moment, that’s part of that’s part of the ancient tradition, that’s part of what we see is that there’s whenever I mean, I’m going through a reading plan right now a Bible in your reading plan. And just kind of going through the Gospels again, and again, not because they’re sort of better per se, but because the encounters that we see directly from Jesus make him on ignorable in our lives. And it becomes that central figure of the story and the central figure of our lives that he truly is, and truly must, and truly must be. And I think there is a tendency to be able to extract some sort of whether it’s moral isms, you know, especially if you’re looking at the Old Testament, or abstract theological concepts, if you’re looking elsewhere in the New Testament, man, that’s not the way we should be reading it. Jesus is the center of the whole story. But it’s a little bit harder to ignore that, as you said earlier, when you’re in in the gospels there. Now you also write that, quote, to do apologetics faithfully and fruitfully in this cultural moment, requires Christians to remember both the objective and personal aspects of our faith. you’ve alluded to this already a couple times, but let’s just let’s just break it down this way, what’s a simple way that Christians could apply your, your point there to be both objective in and personal with with their faith?

Claude Atcho
I mean, I think, you know, we we’ve recognized, you know, culturally, in our contexts, particularly, you know, an American context, probably just in a broader western context, you know, the language of my truth, you know, people are, you know, are really interested in knowledge rooted in our experience, and really validate personal experience, even above and against, you know, objective truth, whether moral or, or otherwise. And I think, you know, I was really encouraged digging into this passage to real to realize and maybe remember in a fresh way, that, you know, if the playing field is about sort of Subjective Truth, Christians can play on that field, you know, with great strength as well. And the Samaritan woman’s testimony, again, is that language come and see a man who told me all that I ever did. So, if we’re being you know, the encounter with Jesus is a personal encounter in a real sense. And because of that, I think in this context, it’s important for Christians to recognize we really do need to speak about what Jesus is doing in our lives, what Jesus has done in our lives, where we are because of Jesus, which is different from where we would be without Jesus. And because our friends in this cultural moment are friends that are that are not yet Christians are really open to that sort of language, that sort of idea of your truth, your experience. I think a lot of our friends are actually interested in hearing. Okay, what like, Okay, you had a really hard week tell me how, tell me how church helped you get through that or you’ve had a really hard stretch with your kids. Tell me how, how prayer and you’re in this relationship you have with Jesus has actually He helped you. So I think there’s a real place for Christians to recognize that sometimes in our witnessing, we don’t move to the objective realities of the gospel, here’s the truth of the resurrection. Sometimes we actually really just begin in the honest conversation with friends talking about, here’s my, here’s my situation, my problem. And here’s how Jesus is real to me in this and is making a difference. That sort of way of witnessing is what I think of is sort of like the first floor of sort of constructing a House of Sharing the truth of the gospel with the people that we’re in relationship with.

Collin Hansen
Old schools, just testimony, right.

Claude Atcho
I mean, it is. And I think, and I think the challenge here, though, is one maybe one of the challenges is, do we have, you know, do we have real friendships with non Christian, or non Christian folks where we’re actually just talking about? Yeah, the last month has been pretty horrible. You know, all my kids are sick, or, you know, my job is going horribly, right? Do we have these real sort of relationships where we’re actually speaking about these sorts of things? Or, you know, do we just kind of come home, watch Netflix, go to small group, and we just don’t have have actual interactions that are getting into the sort of real gritty basic stuff of life?

Collin Hansen
Yeah, I think that’s so helpful that people can be intimidated by evangelism. They can be intimidated by apologetics. Christians don’t know, well, how am I supposed to argue about my faith? Or how am I supposed to persuade somebody else? But in the end, if people were simply looking for opportunities to share about what Jesus has done for them, and is doing for them, and what they’re looking forward to? And they’re looking for opportunities to invite people into that community where they experienced that together? That would probably get us about 90% of the way there. Yeah, no matter what culture no matter how it’s changed, and even realistically, no matter how hostile it is, how, how, how marginalized we might feel. Now, a because especially in a lot of Western cultures, here’s the challenge to the experienced bass to my truth response. I fear that what we often hear back is, I’m so glad for you, whatever works, let me tell you about my crystals. Yeah, let me tell you about how smoking marijuana gives me the same experience that you just had right there. That’s how I feel better. So how do we then bring that subjective back in line with the objective said, no, no. This is actually something that’s true in history, that has implications past, present and future for everyone. How do you bring that then back in the day?

Claude Atcho
Yeah, that’s an important question. You know, I think when you’re in the context of relationship, and friendship, I think you’ll have lots of opportunities to do that. So I think as your you know, as a friend, as you’re sharing with a friend, hey, this is what’s been happening in my life this week. It’s been hard. But, you know, I really felt like Jesus has been helping me. And I’ve been, you know, reading the Bible a little bit more than I have been regularly. And it’s been making a real difference, you know, and your friend, you know, response? Well, yeah. And, you know, blank has been making the difference for me. I think, I think this is a spot where, like, just curiosity prayerfulness and curiosity, asking questions, you know, Oh, what, like, when did you start doing that? Why do you start doing that? Have you always done that? Have you always thought that crystals were, you know, we’re going to help you? What, what, what got you thinking in that direction? I think is we ask those sorts of questions, things get underneath, and then we find the open spots in which we can say, we can push, right, we can push and we can challenge. And then you know, in the context of friendship, if every time that, you know, we share about what Christ is really doing in our lives, or friends as well, you know, the the phrase that many do say, hey, that’s good for you. We cannot we also trust in the Spirit’s leading, where when, when is the time for us to step a little bit more boldly and say, you know, what, like, I know, you’ve heard me talk about this, but it’s actually not just like, good for me. It’s, it’s true for it’s true. And it’s awkward for all and and here’s why this really is is historically real. And you know, Would you be open to talking about this more? We’ve had good conversations, like, do you want to want to read something with me? So I think asking questions being prayerful. And then we find those sorts of openings. As you’re sharing the chapter, you know, one, one instance, during grad school of getting to do this with a friend. And through these conversations, and we naturally ended up reading a book by by Timothy Keller, and it was productive. But there were a couple spots where I wasn’t willing to really be vulnerable in a way that I needed to and it really kind of stifled some of the witness. So I think as we as we try to do this, I think we trust the Spirit’s leading where we can then go from, here’s what I’m experiencing with Christ to here is how Christ is Lord. And here’s how Christ is calling you to engage and to respond as well.

Collin Hansen
Now, one of the other things Claude that you write in this chapter is that our apologetics must be 10 tinged with, not humility, but humiliation. Now, I want to know what you mean by that’s a very colorful statement. I want to I want to know what you mean by that. Yeah,

Claude Atcho
I mean, I think, you know, it’s so easy for us to easy for me, I think easy for us to, to really put on a projection of who we really are, and to really showcase, you know, our accomplishments, our intellect, our competence, you know, all these sorts of things. But I think if we’re actually effectively going to share Jesus with people, we have to do so in a way that shows how he is meeting a need, that we are unable to meet in and ourselves. So naturally, gospel testimony is going to have an aspect of, I am a wreck, you know, I am a mess. Here’s where I have messed up in my past, here’s where I am falling and in need in my present. And here’s where Jesus is grace and power overcomes my sin, my weakness, and the broken parts of me that that’s just it. Otherwise, the gospel makes very little sense, right? We’re talking about somebody who’s come to heal us and to forgive us and to save us and to renew us. So there is a real need to communicate. This is where my story is broken. And I think you hear that from the Samaritan woman, she she says, Come, come and see a man who told me all I ever did, she goes back to town. And she says that, which is now opening up the file cabinet, and putting before everybody, all the stuff from her past again, you know, and then people are probably thinking, Yeah, we know all the stuff you’ve done. Wow, he told you all that, and you’re, you’re reminding us of this. But that’s the only way that they can know. Okay, he’s the savior. Right. And so whether her pass was probably a mix of you know, adultery, infidelity, DeVore, like all sorts of stuff we don’t we don’t know exactly, but we know it was, there’s a serious level of unrighteousness sin and sin done against, but she opens that up, she exposes herself in order to proclaim can this be the Christ? So I think for us, we also have to recognize that a level of honesty, a level of humiliation about our need, and our shortcoming is actually how people can understand the power of the gospel in us, and then can see the power power of the gospel is not just in us, but is beckoning them toward Christ.

Collin Hansen
Again, the chapter is in the book, faithful exiles finding hope in a hostile world. And how what does it mean for you to personally individually experience exile? In our culture? Today? I’m wondering, Claude about yourself personally, as well as then also your church. What does that look like? Again, it can be many different things. But when that comes to mind for you, what stands out?

Claude Atcho
I think my experience of a cultural exile is just kind of feeling caught in the middle of a lot of different things and feeling misunderstood. So I think there’s a sense where I hear people, especially when I’m in situations where people don’t know I’m a Christian, and religious things come up or important issues come up, I just hear I just hear things that that are sort of a maybe a slice or distortion of of the faith or a Christian response. And just think to myself, Oh, okay, like this is, this is how we’re understood. And, you know, some of that is often our own fault. But But I think there’s also some of that, that’s just sort of a cultural, cultural cross pressure. So I can, I can see that in the perceptions that come around, around Christianity. In our context, I think in the context for my church, my church is in Charlottesville, Virginia. So it’s this interesting mix of sort of North and South. So there are some ways in which I don’t feel as much of a cultural exile as much as I felt when I was living and doing ministry in Boston. But I think in some senses, church wise, it’s the same. It’s the same sort of, unspoken kind of distaste that I feel, maybe for people in my church that, okay, if, if it comes up in these conversations that I’m a Christian, they’re going to assume I’m a bigot, they’re going to assume I’m a hateful person. So it’s sort of this unspoken air that I think makes makes me at times and maybe makes others feel like we have to walk on eggshells. And I think it really hinders us from engaging in the evangelistic work that that we’re called to.

Collin Hansen
Well, last few questions. I just wanted to know some of your own story a little bit more, I would be fascinated to learn. How did you end up in Charlottesville after growing up in Washington and working at churches in Boston and Memphis? Yeah.

Claude Atcho
So how did I do my US US ministry tour? Right. It was never it wasn’t it was never planned. I mean, for me, the you know, I grew up splitting time between north north Boston, Lowell, Massachusetts and a North Seattle suburb, Lynnwood, Washington. So I kind of bounced back and forth as a kid. And so you know, when I was getting into ministry, I served in Washington For a while, and wanting to get into church planting my wife and I. And so Boston was a natural, a natural fit, because I kind of knew the area. And you may remember this call, and especially I feel like the early, early 2010s, we were talking so much about New England and the lack of churches in New England. And given my past there as well, in the move of church planting, I mean, that was just sort of a no brainer, like, hey, if we’re going to move somewhere, let’s, let’s go where there’s a need and go to a city that we love. So I was a part of that. And there was a lot of great, great church planning work that was happening during that time, and it’s still happening. So that was going on there. And then, for me, I moved into a church in Memphis, because I was interested in multi ethnic ministry. And Memphis is obviously a city, historically, where that’s been a great a great need and a great challenge, but also has great opportunity. So that’s how I got I got going in Memphis. And then in Memphis, I ended up kind of going through denominational change. And so that’s how I ended up in Charlottesville. So none of none of these big moves were things that I had really planned out. And, and in hindsight, you know, I probably wouldn’t have written the story like that. But each spot for me has been a real gift. And you know, I love the churches in each of those cities.

Collin Hansen
Taking them back a little bit further, even just how you became a Christian. And wondering, have you always had a passion for evangelism and apologetics? So

Claude Atcho
I always grew up going to church with my mom, that was just what we did Baptist church across the street. I enjoyed it, I enjoyed being in the adult service, I still have the, my to King King James Bible, while I was taking notes, apparently, we’re doing a lot of preaching on Revelation, because I have tons of notes there for when I was like seven or eight, like counting the numbers and all this stuff. You know, but I have to say that church, I mean, it was just, they were doing what they knew. And they were faithful. And that’s how I heard about Christ. You know, they did that every every head bowed, every eyes closed, I see that hand. And that’s the context in which are heard clearly was made in God’s image, sin, through sin of separated from God, and through Christ that can be restored to God through faith in Him. And so I’m really thankful for that church. That’s where I heard the gospel was baptized when I was eight years old. And I think really, after that, I definitely, I definitely knew, hey, I need to, like, help my little buddies in the neighborhood, you know, y’all need to come to church, I knew that much. So I started trying to buy my friend’s church. And I just had a sense that, okay, this is, this is something that God has done for me. But God wants this to this message about Jesus to go out to others. So I think I, you know, maybe they taught that at the church really clearly. Or maybe I just kind of intuited that, but I kind of always had that sense. And even through through college, you know, as I struggled on, on how to really follow Jesus faithfully, I always had this sense, like, I do need to, I do need to tell my friends about about Jesus. So I think I think that’s always kind of been there, in a sense. And then for me, I’ve really seen most evangelism happening around the hobbies that I enjoy the most. So I love playing basketball. So pretty much any story that I have about, you know, sharing the gospel with friends has to do with people that I’ve met through basketball. And I think it’s just a really wonderful way that God uses the good gifts and interests that he gives us for Kingdom purposes. And, and so I think I was in a context where I mean, you remember all the missional, kind of missional, living and all this sort of stuff. I mean, I was really in that context. And so it was sort of like, hey, the stuff that you do, do it with this intentionality that comes through the Gospel. And so that that made a big imprint on me. And that’s definitely formed how I’ve thought and how I’ve tried to engage in this work.

Collin Hansen
Oh, last question, Claudia, I want to know about your reading habits, your previous book, we’ve mentioned there, reading Black Books, African American literature can make our faith more whole. And just, you also write a newsletter, about your latest reads, I had to know where do you find time with three young children and leading a church? Tell me about your reading habits?

Claude Atcho
Oh, I mean, I, you know, colonies, you just you just bring a book with you, wherever you are. Find a couple minutes here and there. You know, I go through stretches where I feel like I read a lot. And then other times where, you know, I’m only reading one book. I mean, I’m usually reading multiple books in different ways. You know, if I’m reading a book on a topic that I’ve read before, I can read up more quickly, if I’m reading a book on a topic that I’m less familiar with, I do need to read, you know, more slowly, I was even just talking to a friend who told me, you know, every book, he reads, the intro, the last chapter and the last paragraph of every chapter. Then he starts the book, even said he does that even says he does that for for fiction. I was like, You need to not you need to not do that for fiction. But yeah, so I think those sorts of things. And then, honestly, the biggest thing for me, is, you know, whatever I’m interested in, I just read it. And if I don’t like the book anymore, I stopped reading it. So in some ways, I’m not discipline, not as disciplined as I’d like to be. But because I’m reading whatever I’m interested in, I’m usually always reading a lot of stuff. So whatever catches my eye, I’ll just pick it up and start and start reading. So so that’s kind of what I do but yeah, go through stretches read more, read less. But there’s always there’s always something nearby.

Collin Hansen
I love hearing that. Again. I guesting on gospel bound this week has been Claude Ocho. You heard there a little bit more about reading Black Books, African American literature can make our faith more whole. And just, and especially you’re talking about John for the Samaritan woman at the well, that he writes about in in our book that TGC published last year, called faithful exiles finding hope in a hostile world again, my guest Claude Ochio, pastor of church of the resurrection in Charlottesville, Virginia Claude, thanks for joining me.

Claude Atcho
It’s been a pleasure