Social Sanity Book Club Chapter 9: Posting Well

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Sarah Zylstra
Hello, and welcome back to our final session of our social standard C and an insole World Book Club. We have gone through all of our chapters, and we are at the end of the book, at the afterward with Ruth chose diamonds who wrote that, Ruth, we’re so glad to have you on here.

Ruth Chou Simons
So glad to be here.

Sarah Zylstra
So Ruth’s chapter, or I guess her afterward that she wrote is primarily aimed at creatives. So we’re going to be talking about this today, mainly as a person who, I guess I would define it as a person who has followers and they don’t know all their followers, like somebody who’s speaking to a little bit larger of an audience. However, if you aren’t an influencer, or don’t have followers like that, I still would recommend you to stick around because I think some of the things that she has to say, are good for everybody who’s creating content. And every time you post something online, even if it’s just to your, you know, 200 friends, is also creating content. And also, as we talked about with Laura with flirt influencing people, so we want to learn even more how we can do that. Well. Ruth, can you start us off by telling us when you first got your social media, and what why did you get on? What did you like about it?

Ruth Chou Simons
Oh, well, I think I was even a late adopter with Facebook. But you know, that was like 12 years ago, or something like that. And Instagram was about 10 years ago, I think I’m coming up on a decade, which is kind of crazy to imagine that I have connected my life. I mean, it’s a little tender and sad to think about that I’ve connected my life with this device. For a decade, you know, that’s just really wild to think. But you know, when we I was blogging already at the time, my blog is almost 15 years old. I think it’s coming up on that. And, you know, during that season, I was blogging all the time. And Facebook was the way to kind of get that blog post out there. And, you know, there was that viral post that was seemed so mysterious. And I remember, Tim challies, had tipped one of my posts one time, this was years ago, you know, like, over a decade ago, and suddenly, all these people saw my blog post. And actually, I don’t think he knew who I was somebody else he knew had read my posts. So it was like a double dip, you know. And it was, it was one of those moments where you realized, Oh, my goodness, you can write something from the, you know, corner of your house. And if you share it out into the world, it could reach so many more people. And it felt genuinely, like the best tool in the world. Right. And I’m not trying to use all pastors, because I’m talking about it. But you know, there was an innocence about it at that time where you genuinely thought, and I wasn’t trying to sell, I wasn’t trying to make money writing I wasn’t trying to get published Actually, can I be honest and say I didn’t even know that you could get published from blogging, like it wasn’t even like a reality in my brain. I was a pastor’s wife. And I genuinely just wanted to find grace in the every day through a blog called Grace lace. It was just simply something where I wanted to make sure that I was understanding the grace of God intersecting my daily life. In my mundane in this, I’m not on the mission field in this I’m raising babies and I all I do is, you know, counseled girls after their babies go down. You know, like, it was just one of those moments where I wanted to just work those things out in my everyday life and social media became a place in which I could microblog I could write or share that blog, I could just reach out and say, I’m creating this content. And at the time, that’s not what I called it. I just said I was writing. And I’m hoping that it blesses somebody else, as I work it out in myself,

Sarah Zylstra
Oh, I love that so much. I think writing is so powerful. Whether you do it publicly or in a journal like writing is such a great way to counsel yourself and think about be able to understand what you’re thinking about. Tell us Ruth, when did you notice that social media was not a utopia?

Ruth Chou Simons
Oh, my goodness. You know, I think, you know, there’s two ways to answer that one, I would say I noticed it in myself, like the Oh, I’m not loving this. And that started as early as getting on Instagram and realizing that you had to choose between eight different filters at the time and going which filter is the right one, you know, claridon or, you know, like earlier, it’s you know, and, and so that was not utopic the sense that I was feeling like, oh, there’s a right way to do this, you know, that started feeling a little stressful. But also, I think when you start realizing that you’re coming back to I mean, this happens right away in social media, but when you start realizing that you’re coming back, wanting to know if it’s effective, even though you created something that you knew God was working out in your own heart you felt confident to like share it with others, but somebody else’s opinion or out information of that suddenly became something that was more important than the work itself. That’s when I think, between that and then realizing that you could know somebody, but they sound different online like that. That’s when you start realizing like, it’s not really, as utopic as you might think. Yeah,

Sarah Zylstra
what a bummer, huh?

Ruth Chou Simons
Why can’t it just be perfect? Why can’t we all?

Sarah Zylstra
See, you’ve been doing this for almost four decades, I guess for a decade now for a long time. Can you and your vote, I think your voice is beautiful. And I also like from way back down where I am. With like, two followers, it seems to me like you’re in this number of people. So tech, can you talk a little bit about when you’re in that position? What are some of the like joys and challenges of having that voice? Like if I’m a person who’s like, oh, man, I would love to be able to influence other women for the Lord. What would you? What would you tell me what’s good and bad about that?

Ruth Chou Simons
Well, I don’t want to give too long one answer here. But I would say when I started blogging, I knew I wasn’t just doing it as a private journal. So like, I knew ahead of time, that the mission, even if I had two readers, or 200, readers, the mission was that I was going to use the giftings that I have, and work that out, practice it, but put out there something that I’m willing to leave in the world as a legacy or just as something that serves a purpose outside of fulfilling myself. So when I already started with that kind of a mission, then coming to social media, for me personally, wasn’t a huge jump. Like it wasn’t like, oh, this was always for me. This was just a curated photo album for me. Now, what do I do if I have people following? It wasn’t that hard for me, because I was never on there, just to curate my own life. Because so I would just say, for some people, it might be like, you have to mentally and physically choose to determine why you’re there. If you were there originally, just to curate photos for grandma. And now you have followers, it may not be the same purpose anymore, right? For me, personally, I did struggle as much with that because it this might be goofy to say this out loud. And I don’t know if our audience here, you know, what age bracket, but I’ll just say I’m 46. I’ll be 47. This year, I came into social media, having kind of worked through the identity crisis of like, who am I and what am I doing with my life? Already, meaning, I think my 22 year old sisters may come to social media with a little bit more. Because when I was 22, I was struggling with Lord, what am I doing with my life, and I, and it’s really easy to look at others to determine that. And so when I joined social media, I was nearly 40, you know, and so it wasn’t a season where I needed approval as much as maybe I did in a previous season. So I think when you come to social media, and you want to, rightly with a good, wholesome conscience, wanting to influence others for the kingdom to biblically like, spur one another on, those are good motives, motives, and motivations. But I think you have to really determine why you’re there and ask yourself, which I think I shared some of this in the appendix, but just that you have to really ask yourself and determine and maybe even tell yourself again, and again, why am I there? Because that will determine and, and, and you can put yourself in check when you know why you’re there. Right? Because what you say your stated mission is, if you veer off, and you’re honest with yourself, that’s when you can say, Okay, I made that choice. And I didn’t need to make that choice, because it doesn’t go in line with my mission.

Sarah Zylstra
That’s really good. It seems to me like, on some level, I would feel guilty if I wasn’t trying to like we’re sharing the message of Jesus in the Gospel, encouraging women, shouldn’t every single Christian woman be attempting to make her voice then as loud as possible and reach as many people as possible? Is it wrong? To not be doing that? Like, how do I know if I’m a person who should be not trying to grow your following? I don’t think anybody should be trying to grow their following per se, but who should be trying to

Ruth Chou Simons
use the platform, however, you know, like, hold that mic up to your mouth and say, like, I’m trying to share this thing and reach as many people as possible. You know, I think I share about this in the chapter. But I think of social media, kind of like my living room. And not everyone is excited about, like, we all need to be hospitable, but we don’t we’re not all called to have the same kind of dinner parties or the same. You know, some of us are like, I’m ready to have two people over. And some people are like, I’m ready to host the entire women’s group at church, and that’s like 40 and we’re all gifted with different skills and giftings. And some women are really called to lead that Bible study and teach to other women at their church. While Some women really begin by mentoring one young gal during that time, right? And so we see that as normal, we go, oh, well, so and so is teaching the entire community, whereas this other gal is ministering with one person. And we would say both are effective. So, it seems complicated when we get to social media. But I think of it the same way that not everyone is meant to speak real loudly, or real authoritative ly, or, in a way that’s like, everybody come over here and have a conversation. But we all are accountable, whether you’re ministering to one, or 1000, we’re accountable to what we say in the influence we have even with one person. So sometimes I think about it, like it’s a living room, because I think to myself, Okay, if it’s really good friends, then they come over and we put our feet up, and we maybe share a lot more. But social media is really like inviting people I don’t know real well into my home. And so in my hospital in my warm, am I asking questions? Am I vulnerable in sharing my life? Yes. But I’m not taking them right into my master bathroom and saying, Come on, in, I’ve got my dirty laundry on the floor. I don’t necessarily need to do that, to be open and honest and interested in talking about real things. I love that

Sarah Zylstra
I everybody should go and read Ruth part of the book because she expands that more and is maybe one of my favorite ways ever of thinking about what your voice should sound like if you’re trying to reach more people. I thought that was awesome. Can you answer that? Another thing that you talked about in your chapter is the idea of your of your influence running ahead of your character? And how lots of times we see this in pastors as well, especially pastors who fall if they’re the people who their audience is bigger than their character can handle? How do I know if my influence is is there? Are there warning signs? Or how do I know if my character is not? Caught up to my influence?

Ruth Chou Simons
Yeah, well, I mean, the honest truth about that is that in our entire walk with Christ, we have to be good at self assessing about testing our hearts, right? I mean, killing sin, as Jonathan says, would be something that you would have to be able to do that you would have to be like, hard on yourself and think about where sin is and what to do with it. So so the harder question, I mean, the harder answer is we have to assess and be honest with ourselves. But I think an easier way to assess that I, you know, this has been on my mind a lot because I wrote that recent book when striving see. So I call striving, that, you know, striving in our own strength, that thing you do when you realize you’re anxiously trying to manipulate something to get the results you want, and get something that you don’t quite trust for trust God for. So if we define it that way, we can apply this to social media to rather than be like, my character is great, because what do we do, Sarah, when we like, look at our own character, we usually immediately compared to somebody else. I mean, really, I hate to say it that way. But the truth is, if I’m like, Sarah, let’s just assess our hearts. It’s really easy to be like, Well, I’m honest, and that person is not, or I am doing this with integrity, and so and so is just making money, whatever it is, like we might do that. But when you start being when you start looking at your own life and going, Okay, let’s look at where the pinch point is. Where are you anxious? Where are you striving? Where are you manipulating and trying to hustle your way into the results that you want? Not just stewarding, but manipulating and anxiously right, we’re called not to be anxious about anything. So if you’re anxiously trying to like squeeze the life out of something, so that you get the results that you want, and you get the response that you want. That’s a good indication that you’ve put your hope in to not your walk with Christ, but with the result that you want to get. So rather than assess yourself, what’s your character, like? We’re just saying, Hey, if you’re meant if your character is meant to be anxious for nothing, and all things give thanks, but you are anxiously striving and trying to manipulate everything your character is probably not catching up with the results that you’re wanting to see.

Unknown Speaker
That is super good. Andrew super convicting

Ruth Chou Simons
convicting for myself.

Sarah Zylstra
Can you so as Can you talk us through when when we look at your social media, or maybe when I look at your social media, it looks like you just happily one day fell out of bed and word spill out of your mouth and it came out to be perfect. And it’s just like, how is Ruth’s life looking so like? Her kids are so cute at her. Right and, you know, the words she chose are so godly. Talk us through it looks easy from the outside, but talk us through what that looks like unveil for us. How do you write a social I’ll give you a post.

Ruth Chou Simons
Yeah, I think it’s a bonus that I’m a creative. That is I’m an artist. And so when I paint something, it might look effortless when you see the finished painting. And it’s not necessarily easy to see all the layers that went on before it. So just as a creative just as an artist, I would just say, there’s there are lots of things that we do, you could create a beautiful meal, and nobody knows how long you prepped or marinated or soy, or chopped, right. So, so many things that are beautiful in life require a lot of back end. And that doesn’t mean that it’s disingenuous, it means that you just don’t see every bit of the process, right? I don’t always show every bit of the process of my paintings, either or how many months it took to write. You know, but, but I would just say, on a practical level, it’s not effortless, I actually have to tell my family Sarah, I legitimately tell my family, guys, mama can’t talk for about the next hour because I got to finish writing this post. I’m not gonna go upstairs because I want to hear what you guys are talking about. But if I’m looking on my phone is because I started a post that I never finished. And I need to get this out in the next hour. So give me a little space. I can’t answer your questions right now. And I’m just real honest about it. Because it takes mental energy, you’re not going to write something beautiful or well crafted, or even strategic. I don’t think there’s any problem with being strategic friends, if you’re trying to write a good post, and you’re not getting to the point, you’re not employing good strategy. So strategy is there’s nothing wrong. It’s not like you’re striving or hustling in a terrible way, if you’re strategic, you’re being a good steward. But all those things take energy. And so for me, I conserve that energy. By having my notes app open almost all the time. I am constantly taking notes on the thoughts that go through my head if some words are strung together, as I’m getting ready in the morning, rather than sit down and write that post right now, I just jot those string of words together, and then revisit it later. And sometimes you go back and you’re like, Why did I think that was so inspiring. That sounded dumb. But other times you go, Oh, I would have forgotten that that thought was in my mind. I’m regularly coming across a maybe a link or a post that somebody else wrote that I want to interact with, rather than take all my time, right that minute to like, interact and make it almost like a reactive post, I sit with that I saved the link in my notes app, I come back to it later. And scope. Do I still have a reaction to this? Because I don’t trust myself within five minutes of anything. I just never do. None of the posts that you read, I would say one out of maybe one every three or four months is one that I literally wrote in the moment, like literally just like Oh, my goodness, this is just how it is. And usually it’s Merry Christmas. I mean, most of the time, they’re never, they might they might be absolutely real. And they may be in real time as in, like, within that season. But they’re never posted. I literally wrote in two minutes. It’s I think about it. And then I have my husband read it. And then I have my team read it. I have people hold me accountable to what I’m saying. And then they they go, Oh, I know you’ve been going through this, this is your response to it. Because I don’t trust myself. I don’t trust myself. I don’t think that everything I say is worthy of reading. I don’t think that I have to weigh in on everything. I do not believe that my responses are always godly. So I wait and I keep my notes app is hilarious. It’s like, there are things from like four years ago on my notes app, because iCloud just keeps saving for me. But um, but yeah, that’s what I do. I just, I wait on a lot of things, and I take the time to come back and make sure it’s still worthwhile.

Sarah Zylstra
That just seems like the most foundational super wise advice. Because it Ruth if your character is, you know, if your character isn’t ready for it, certainly my character isn’t ready for it. So this that’s just great up. Good advice for everybody. I’m gonna go off script on you a little bit and ask you some questions from I so I am not, as probably everybody knows an influencer. But I do know girls who are creatives and so they had sent a little bit more detailed questions. And so maybe we’re going to veer into that direction a little bit. So my first question is probably a lot of people respond to you and come to you and maybe tell you things, maybe hard things maybe want help with things maybe are sharing really difficult parts. I mean, I think this is just true for speakers as well. Anybody who’s kind of in front and feels like there’s, if a person feels like there’s a connection then we want to share so probably people are sharing with you. How do you sort of handle it feels then maybe like a responsibility like you have to say something back all the time or you have to direct them to a right resource or how do you kind of handle the weight of Have have all those things?

Ruth Chou Simons
Yeah, that’s a really good question. First of all, I had to kind of come to terms and come to peace with the fact that my job isn’t to counsel. My job isn’t to be a pastor, my job isn’t to be the expert in anything. It’s a very limited platform. It’s a very limited ministry, right? The ministry really is held within a couple 100 words, within a little moments. And it’s a supplement to what must be there as true nourishment in somebody else’s life. I’m not replacing the Bible, I’m not replacing the local church, I’m not replacing pastoral or mentor, or pastoral care or counselors. So when I determined that I don’t connect my influence with it, I’m supposed to change your life. I connect it with like, it’s my responsibility that if you stop your scroll, and stay on my page for even two minutes, that it should be something I’m that I think is worthy of Christ like that. That’s all. That’s all, you know, just, if you stop your scroll, I don’t read every DM. And sometimes I might see that there is a DM that goes by that I literally cannot respond to. And I’ve made peace in my heart that I cannot spend my time receiving and accepting all those messages. So first and foremost, hopefully, you know, people are super disappointed in me. But I answer a very small amount of the DMS I turned off the ability to message me on with my stories. Because only if you’re like, if I follow you back, then you can actually interact with my stories. Because stories are so reactionary, right, you can post a quick outing with your kids in the the the mom that feels like, how did you make that happen? Immediately blasts your DM and just kind of like, you know, just Blabs whatever she thinking in that moment. And so that’s not a that’s not an email, right, my email to go to my ministry assistant, that email is, is clearly stated, they’re listed there. And so if somebody wants to well craft a thoughtful question, that I can involve my ministry team to help answer, they can email me, but a DM is so reactionary, that I’ve turned out that function because those are not usually questions that are necessarily seeking an answer that spot for. So that’s one thing, I would just say, sorry, if it’s a disappointment that I don’t answer those DMS. Secondly, anytime that I have where it’s like, I’ve already been in conversation, now there’s a question and I can’t, I don’t want to ignore it. I need to be careful. I always point people back to the local church, I always say, Listen, it’s not perfect. I know that sometimes it’s hard to find a local church. But here’s some places to start. Here’s some websites where that might help you find a local church. Consider asking your local church for a mentor and or somebody that can help. So I always say, Listen, I’m in limited capacity, it may feel like we’re really close friends. But that’s not actually I can’t do life with you. And so I’m always pointing them back to the local church, I don’t actually even necessarily share links, books or blog posts, because I don’t know who that person is. So sometimes that they asked for a direct resource, I don’t mind. But typically, I don’t even want to go back and forth in a conversation about the resource that I shared. Because I don’t know the first thing about you, your background, have you been hurt by the church? Do you have a repulsion against this kind of writing? I mean, I don’t know. I don’t know anything. But I do know that you God’s puts you in a community. And there’s probably a church, in your community that you can start with,

Unknown Speaker
Oh, I love that.

Sarah Zylstra
And if you are looking for resources, the Gospel coalition has a church directory. And so that’s usually where I point people to, it’s just really easy. You can search by location, and then there will at least be churches who want to affiliate themselves with the gospel Coalition, which is maybe one place to start. Yes, absolutely. Um, here’s another question for you. How do you handle affiliations? And who do you show like when you take a picture with somebody at something? Maybe you don’t want to put all of those pictures online? So how do you handle who you are? It sounds dumb to say who you’re seeing with, but kind of?

Ruth Chou Simons
Well, it’s been a it’s a real issue, right? Especially let’s all acknowledge that it is currently 2022. And everybody, I would say because of just the enemy’s work in the last couple of years and all the things that are going on. I think everybody’s really eager to find a reason not to like somebody, right? We’re all kind of looking for how somebody is is a fraud. Somebody’s not who they say they are. I always knew your opinion was wrong. This is the current climate. So let’s just say first and foremost, that it’s the current Climate is really difficult to receive grace. And hopefully, you that’s listening, you’re giving grace. And so it’s caused me to learn because I’ve had a couple of experiences, I’ve certainly had a couple of emails come by or DMS that say, I’m so disappointed in you, you shared about this book you shared about this person, you spent time at a conference that I don’t approve of, and that in some ways, it will always happen. And so first and foremost, you have to determine whether or not you genuinely are in a relationship or sharing something for the right reasons. Secondly, if you share it, you can be honest about the nature of that relationship. This is a wonderful friend, right? I really appreciate coffee dates with this person, you don’t have to say check out every single book because I read them all, if you haven’t, right. And so I think there’s, there’s just an authenticity to like, can you defend that this person is your friend? Absolutely. And should we actually see more women who are doctrinally sound, being able to have conversations with somebody they don’t totally agree with? Absolutely. But just posting somebody sometimes isn’t endorsement. So either you take the you take that risk, and be honest about the nature of your relationship, or just know that you don’t need to post everything that you’re experiencing. And so I would say, my social media sees about 10% of what’s happening in real life, or the people I’m actually spending time with, professionally and locally. And so, you know, I mean, you train your audience, you, you get to train your audience what to expect from you. And if you have chosen to make your social media all about what you do, where you go, the people you see, and who you connect with, then you’re going to probably have to post about every person you spend time with. But if you’ve trained your audience to know that your content first, or your family first, or whatever it is that you want to do your art First, your cross stitch first. I’m just saying whatever it is that you’re doing, there’s not one way then no, you you, there’s no real reason to post about every time you meet somebody or see somebody in person or go to a conference.

Sarah Zylstra
Oh, that’s good. That’s good. Okay, how do you handle the humble brag? Like self promotion or making money online? Right, because, you know, a lot of not even just, you know, the girls, we know, but a lot of girls are making money online. But how do you do that? With Integrity?

Ruth Chou Simons
Yeah, that’s, uh, so first of all, I don’t think there’s ever an excuse to, to flaunt or speak of money or speak of your giving or speak, that’s never okay. Right? So I think success is one of those things where we all might agree on like, hey, it’s just not appropriate to, to talk about certain things. But then suddenly, we realize that we’re somewhat bragging about other things that kind of equate to almost finances or success and things like that. I think this is a really, really difficult question. Because at the same app in the very industry that I feel like I’m in, in the authoring industry, there are milestones that people celebrate, there are copies of books sold, is that connected to money? At some level, it is now, in all honesty, and Amazon books sold is not really money in the pocket right away, you know. And so it’s not that it’s a direct sales, but it is about succeeding and growth. And because I’m in business, and I consider myself an entrepreneur, I’ve had to really make peace with the fact that if I steward it, well, then growth is good. Growth is good, but growth is not I’m not entitled to growth. So maybe I’m caught up a little bit on the word humblebrag. But I would say, if you’re stewarding, well, then when you share the growth, it is a reflection of making choices that are in obedience to how God’s leading like, I’m so grateful for an opportunity to speak here to write this book. But if you feel that, it but if you feel that it’s all because you’ve done really great, then it’s going to sound like a humble brag, right? Because it’s going to be look at the choices I made. Look at the discipline I’ve had. And so I think the difference is subtle. Yeah. But Sarah, you and I know that the message the false gospel of self help is one where we’re the hero. And the gospel of grace is that Jesus is and so for those of us who are online trying to steward Well, a business or a platform, celebrating that we got to 10,000 followers and for a while there, you have to swipe up or whatever it is. are celebrating that you reached a milestone with your book sales. I think when it’s led out with gratitude, and you know that you’re like God can take this away at any moment, and that you’re not the reason you’re not the reason why you’re succeeding, then you stop and say, Okay, thank you for Thank You, Lord, for giving me even the opportunity to steward this platform. And you write whatever you’re trying to post about. And then you tell 10 people to read it and say, does this leave you feeling like, God is good and kind? And that he is faithful in your life as well? Or does this leave you with? My life stinks? Because it’s not Ruth’s. And so what are people? What are people left with when they leave that post? And that’s the question I usually ask myself, or ask other people to assess for me. And I let everybody assessed that, if you leave my post, thinking that there’s only good if you act exactly like me, that I’ve made myself the hero of the story. But if you leave my post saying, Oh, God is great, right? And if I’m going to be jealous, it’s my problem. You know, you can’t control all those things. But if you leave the post, acknowledging God’s faithfulness, then we’re closer to not being about ourselves. That’s

Sarah Zylstra
awesome. Or sometimes I think, if I had read this, if I read this post on somebody else’s page, what I, what would be my reaction to that? Yeah, that’s

Ruth Chou Simons
really good, too.

Sarah Zylstra
So I’m going to connect that with that. Since we’re talking about money. How do you think through? So you have a cute house? Right? Like, how do you think through I’m also like, how do you show? How do you think about your socio economic status online, or like, Hey, I made this meal, or, like, I’m good at cooking, and I’m happened to be good at art. And, you know, I’m thinking also a little bit like, I, we have a compassion child that we write to, and they’re always like, super tell you to be super careful about like, you know, listen, your kids lives in a hut, like if they have that. So just you don’t need to put your pictures don’t send her a picture of you somewhere. Awesome. I don’t know if the same rules apply, or like, how do you but there’s also something to like, I don’t know, a beautiful space. And

Ruth Chou Simons
yeah, you know, well, first of all, my, now four years in the making fixer upper is looking pretty good these days. You know, I’m currently sitting in front of this big glass window that I’m so grateful we turned a DAC into my office and super grateful about that. I think anyone who follows me will, hopefully have known that I had green carpet around every toilet in this house. And it was stuck in the 90s. And so the journey, I’m not a home blogger, but I’ve been pretty upfront about, you know, what it took for us to kind of get to this point. And, you know, Sarah, I think I think one of the things that I have kind of made peace with is there’s always going to be somebody who feels like you did it wrong. And so at some level, I mean, I don’t know, like, what’s, what’s humble enough? Right? What’s hidden? And I think it’s probably a problem if we are putting every single thing away styling it so perfectly, so that we look like, we never have laundry out. But if you’re saying, hey, I want to pretend that my I didn’t get a new couch, and I have to hide the fact that I save up and got wallpaper that probably is a luxury. I mean, it’s kind of a luxury to put up wallpaper. And I currently don’t have any but not the kind I really want. But I know what it costs, you know. So it may feel that way. But at the same time I go well, I think if it’s you can’t judge whether it’s within somebody’s means, right? And so, yes, I think it’s all still an issue of the heart. It’s still just an issue of the heart. I think it’s still an issue of whether or not you’ve curated perfection, or you’ve curated an honest and honest look at both what you do well, what you maybe don’t do well. And then last but not least, I would just say also. At some level, the reason why sometimes, and I actually stopped doing it quite this way. But there’s a difference between content creation and having images that will draw people and lead people to a topic. That photo isn’t necessarily personal. It is a photo that is almost like the cover art of an album. And so I think that’s why this is a tricky conversation because not everyone uses their social media as a window into their personal life. I would say mine is not necessarily a window into my personal life. If it was such a window into my personal life. I might show you the stubbed toe Oh, that I kicked the other day or that, you know all the dirty dishes on my table. But even then when I choose to only show you my dirty dishes, that was a choice that I made, hoping that you would understand something about me, in the same way that we might show a beautiful, perfect house. And that’s a story that we’re it’s a narrative we’re choosing. We’re also choosing a narrative, when we say, look how tough my life is, or look how and, and I might be taking this a little different direction, but I’m just trying to be really honest and say, if we base everything on, how will somebody else perceive me, we’re still being incredibly self centered. Whether that means that we’re wearing designer jeans or not wearing designer jeans. And so for each person, we have to be honest with the Lord about are we staying within our means? Are we honoring the Lord with our, with our resources? Am I generous? Or am I literally just buying designer everything so that I can satisfy myself? You know, but with after outside of that, I think you just continue to say over and over again. If my social media is a living room, and somebody walks into my house? Do I serve them with the good things that I have? Or do I show off the good things I have? Because it’d be real weird Sara, if somebody’s came if you came over to my house, and you know, you and I are internet friends, if you came to my house for the first time, and you sat down, and I go Look what I bought? Look what I bought Sarah. Oh my gosh, you know, I made I’ve been saving for so long for these really cool jeans. So let’s see, these are oh my gosh, can you believe this? Amazing, you know, couch that I have? Like, that would be weird. But if I said, Hey, sit down, friend. Sit down in here. Do you want to cozy blanket? Let me serve you really good food from Whole Foods. I don’t have a whole foods. But let’s just say like, let me pull out the best and serve you. Would I need to be guilty about serving you the best that I can offer? No, but I’m the attention isn’t on the staff, or the food, or how pretty I served it on the plate. The attention is on you. Because I’m serving you. So I just don’t say the living room thing helps me discern. am I serving others? Or am I serving myself? Okay, I

Sarah Zylstra
love that so much. And I feel like you also talked in your and you kind of glanced over this but you talked about a little bit in your in the in the piece that you wrote to about, boy, your online life flows out of your life life like you can’t show something online, a depth or you can’t have that heart attitude unless you actually have that heart attitude when you’re not online thing. That’s so good. Yeah. Let’s talk about the trickiness of sharing pictures of your kids. Which I think is a totally different thing. If you’re like on with your you know, your mom and your dad and your cousins showing pictures of your kids. Completely different than if you have strangers showing pictures of your kids. Not that you shouldn’t do it. How do you think through all the facets of your kids digital footprint, their agency, your responsibilities? The joy of sharing their life, too? I mean, there’s just a million considerations there.

Ruth Chou Simons
Yeah, I think there’s, you know, two aspects of this, right. There’s the security aspect. And then there’s the like, what they desire, right where I’m at. I’m, I think when they were really little I clearly when they were babies, I was new on social media. And I couldn’t ask a toddler whether they wanted their photo on the internet, right? And so I would say I probably thought about it less. I remember motherhood as sanctifying was a hashtag that I started. So long ago 2013, I think, and I started that hashtag with a picture of man, Cub number five, on the ground kicking and screaming. What I really post that photo right now, if I had a toddler, maybe not. But I also didn’t talk about him and his character. If anything, it could have been a stock photo of a kicking, kicking and screaming child, it wasn’t really majorly, of his face, or, you know, but as they’ve gotten older, I do ask, I do ask if it’s okay to post. I don’t post any photo of our family or have them without showing them the entire post and the and I read the whole post, I usually read it. I know that we have made a choice to I mean, some of my kids photos are even published in my books. And so I understand that I’ve made a choice to allow that to be there forever. And so I determined pretty carefully like what that could be used for and for nefarious reasons. I mean, there are people who are going to, like, Could a photo of my children be used on pillows manufactured in the Third World and distributed all over the world? Yes. So many soak in a lot of other things and So, am I scared of that? I would hate for that to happen. But it is a calculated risk that I choose. Okay. What are the things that I’m going to keep completely for ourselves? The most intimate things, and then the things that are really like, that’s why sometimes you might see a portrait versus an intimate photo. Or if it’s a, it might look a little stage because I’m choosing that photo is appropriate for the internet. And a really personal one is not so it’s a calculated risk I think I’ve chosen to make in my industry. Yeah,

Sarah Zylstra
totally. That makes sense. Are your kids on social media?

Ruth Chou Simons
No. Is that because they’re by their own choice? Yeah. My oldest, we totally say, Hey, you’re, you’re old enough, I’m think you might really enjoy sharing your mountain biking experiences. And he tried it out for a few months. And he even tried to start an account for our dog. Like, he tried to try to go all in, you know. And he was like, I can’t. He’s like, this is such a waste of time. He’s like, I’m so bored. I’m so annoyed. I’m getting off. And, you know, I wouldn’t say that. It’s just about boys or girls, because I saw plenty of teen boys, who are just as eager to leave fire emojis and show their abs and convince people that their star soccer players or whatnot. So I don’t know that it’s just a boy, it’s a boy or girl thing, although girls are way more social, right? And so girls are so social in that way. Whereas boys would say, their social when they go do an activity together and so but our boys, I think I don’t, I’m sure there’s going to be one out of the six, right? I have six boys, one of the six is probably going to say, I love social media. And I’d love to do this. So our best way to deal with it right now, because nobody’s asking for it. Nobody’s really all they, they kind of see me considered a drudgery. Sometimes they’re like, Wow, she thinks this is a burden, you know, but, but we just had to replace with a lot of things that are more worthy and exciting of their time and attention. When there’s a lot to get outside for when there’s a lot of relationships to show up for when there’s other exciting things to do. They kind of stop asking about social media. And so that’s kind of how we’re dealing with it in this particular

Unknown Speaker
season. Good. I like that.

Sarah Zylstra
Okay, we’re gonna we’re gonna dig even a little bit deeper into the weeds here. Oh, goodness. Can you talk about if you’re talking with in the Creator world? So you’re talking with somebody else? How can you what is the best way to do that? So if I’m in a in a Christian influencer, or like, of medium or small status and talking to somebody else? How can you best support each other, but you’re also maybe a little bit in competition with each other? Do you share all the things? Is there anything that you wouldn’t share? Like, what how are those relationships? How can you best serve those ladies? And I mean, there’s probably a natural, like, you don’t want to share all your thoughts. And

Ruth Chou Simons
yeah. So one thing I’ve found over the years, because what I do is I write posts, I write books now, but I for many years, I wrote posts, and I crafted my words in a specific way, and that I would create things with art. And so many times, Sarah, over the years, I would see somebody take the exact words that I wrote, or say it in the exact same way after I wrote it, or paint the same painting that I painted without giving me credit. Sir, I’ve seen that over the years a lot, and I don’t always talk about it. And one thing I will just start off by saying, I don’t think that I don’t think that it’s ever hurt me. Like I don’t think that it’s God’s been kind like I’ve now if it’s a total trademark infringement, we go after that, right? Like we legally don’t allow absolute copying, but in the gray areas where it’s like, Hey, I shared something with you. And now you’re like, kind of stepping all over me. Or I would just say, on one hand, use discernment on another. I don’t I don’t just share all our sources, all our things. I don’t just give away all my processes to everybody. Certainly not I cultivate certain relationships. But I also feel like there’s enough room for everybody. And so just because you share a source for your printer, or you share a source for where you find the best app to do something, doesn’t mean that just because somebody filters their photos to look like yours, doesn’t mean that you can’t still be unique because it challenges you to really be who you say you are. So the challenge for me over the years here has been Oh yeah, if you’re really creative, Ruth, then somebody else kind of doing what you’re doing. It’s not going to step all over you because you’re constantly reinventing and doing new and you’re changing it up, right? So when we’re really close handed about things, I think it stresses us ourselves out. We are constantly looking at our shoulder over our shoulder going, is somebody else going to take what I’m doing or my idea? So instead, I think the part where you use the sermon is No, I don’t just like the earlier question. I don’t take every DM asking for can you read my book? And you helped me publish it? Can you? Like, no, I don’t, I don’t just do free coaching all over the, you know, to anyone, I don’t give away our sources. I, I don’t do that. But with industry, friends and people who are genuinely fostering a relationship with me. Absolutely. I don’t, I don’t feel like I have anything to hide, I’m happy to send over the documents, I used to refute review my employees, if it helps you to run your organization better. Awesome. If I might show I might share my job descriptions. Because if it helps you build a better team. That’s fantastic. And I think at the end of the day, you have to just know that a relationship is a two way street, if you’re only providing information that’s not really a relationship. And so use discernment as we cultivate relationships in the industry. Just because somebody else is like minded biblically, doesn’t mean you can’t invest in everybody. Yeah. And so not everyone’s going to be your close friend. And don’t take that personally. Just choose wisely, where you can put your energy and your efforts and and I think we always use that Paul and Timothy model, were always have a pull somebody ahead of you and have somebody who’s a little younger than you and keep it balanced so that somebody is speaking into your life, and then you’re helping somebody else along who’s a little behind where you’re at. That’s really good.

Sarah Zylstra
Okay, we may go for a long time. So I’m just going to have only one more, I’m just going to be here. So I when I was talking with Emily about her chapter, she said one of the things that she noticed from being on social media too much was that her creativity went down. And she felt like she was a little more frazzled and easily distracted and just wasn’t as creative. And I’m wondering, assuming that’s true for more people than just Emily, assuming it’s true for me and you as well. How do you? Like, do you? How do you consume social media that like, are you careful about your limits? How do you use social media as a consumer?

Ruth Chou Simons
Yeah. Well, first of all, I think I’ve shifted to not feeling like I’m a consumer anymore. I think of it like, okay, it’s almost like a news reel, like I, I pop in, I check on the conversations, what’s going on, I respond I, I do it like a job. But I’m not really wanting to sit there and read and consume and think I’m not actually, as entertained by it as I once was. Now, with that said, it’s a constant struggle. And I definitely feel like you have to, as a creative, you have to have something to overflow out of to create. If you’re just in producing mode, your reel is going to look really forced and boring, your post is going to sound like you wrote it three years ago. And the content you create looks like you’re just doing it for algorithm purposes. We all know what that feels like when you’re just in production mode. And it doesn’t mean that that’s bad stewardship, it just means that it’s unsustainable. It’s unsustainable as a creative if you’re not feeding and full and consuming something that gives you life. And so for me social media, and I think probably Emily would say the same thing. Social media can’t truly be consumed, if you want to be a creative, because if that’s what’s feeding you, if we use the word consumption as something that fills you up, well, none of us feel more filled up when we use social media. So you have to fill your self up so much somewhere else, that when you come to social media, you’re asking less of it. Right? So if you come to social media, and you’re feeling real empty, so So I wish I could say, Sarah, to everyone listening, hate this is the rule that I follow five minutes here, 10 minutes here, and I always turn off my phone by exactly this time. It’s not actually that perfect, just like my quiet times and my time when the word is not always that perfect. And I think we all want that formula that keeps our hearts and our minds in check. But instead, I actually use a more difficult formula for me to follow, but I say, what’s the state of my heart? Am I coming to am I opening my phone up in a state of I’m already feeling sad, a little dry feeling like I’m deserted out in the middle of nowhere, I have no friends. You know, if I’m coming like that, then the tank is really low. And I’m going to look to consume social media to fill myself back up. And then I’ll come up short. But if I come really full and saying okay, I got this like, there’s other things going on in my life. I’m living a full life I’ve had a rich conversation with somebody else. Then I come to the to social media with my Take really pretty full with maybe like a couple, you know, little places where I could be like, Oh, I’m inspired now. Oh, wow, that was really great. But I want to get off pretty quickly because I have something else to live for and something else to do. So that’s a more difficult filter to put yourself through. But that’s what I have to do. Because then I’m more honest with myself that just having time limits, yeah.

Sarah Zylstra
Oh, I think that’s so good. We talked about that a little bit and Gretchen’s chapter on emotions to like, Why do you come excited and leave? Disappointed, and yet you come back excited again, and then you leave disappointed. It’s like the cycle we’re in. But I think

Ruth Chou Simons
it’s like a drug.

Sarah Zylstra
Like, why are we keep doing this? It doesn’t it’s not working. But I think that’s exactly right. We’re coming low. And it just can’t do what we’re expecting it to do.

Ruth Chou Simons
Exactly. Ruth,

Sarah Zylstra
this was super, super helpful. Thank you so much. You are a gift.

Ruth Chou Simons
Thank you, Sara. This is a conversation that we don’t have enough. So thank you for spearheading this project. And I think we’ll all be better for these conversations that we’re having, honestly and stewarding this particular tool while in our season.

Sarah Zylstra
Yeah, I think you’re right. I think we are long overdue for gospel centered, tougher looks at what we’re doing with our thumb. Yeah. All right.

Ruth Chou Simons
Thanks for having me. Yes, and thanks for being here.